Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby bucfanclw » Wed May 15, 2019 12:36 pm

RedLeader wrote:
bucfanclw wrote:Look at Red Leader suddenly taking the stance that not all government handouts are socialism now that his guy is doing it. Funny stuff.


Sorry. That’s a left argument. One I’m sure you’ve made before, by either bringing up schools, cops, or the military as a gotcha quote... or bailouts, as you're trying to make the case for now. Wouldn’t be surprised if you considered disaster relief / FEMA as socialism in the same vein, as well.


Like I said. Do better than Vox.

So tell me the difference, oh wise one. Why is 2 years of tax increases while giving handouts different than, say free medical care for people that can't afford it?
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby Buc2 » Wed May 15, 2019 12:48 pm

bucfanclw wrote:
RedLeader wrote:
Sorry. That’s a left argument. One I’m sure you’ve made before, by either bringing up schools, cops, or the military as a gotcha quote... or bailouts, as you're trying to make the case for now. Wouldn’t be surprised if you considered disaster relief / FEMA as socialism in the same vein, as well.


Like I said. Do better than Vox.

So tell me the difference, oh wise one. Why is 2 years of tax increases while giving handouts different than, say free medical care for people that can't afford it?

What tax increases? My taxes have not increased the last 2 years.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby HamBone » Wed May 15, 2019 12:53 pm

bucfanclw wrote:
HamBone wrote:
Welfare state

Even better. Trump is creating a welfare state that supposed critics of said policies (at least when suggested by liberals) are just eating right up in the name of nationalism.


Are you for or against increases in the welfare state?
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby bucfanclw » Wed May 15, 2019 12:54 pm

TheChefO wrote:
bucfanclw wrote:Define the problem


Problem(s):
  • Trend of us manufacturers shutting down factories (either moving/relocation equipment offshore, or switching suppliers completely)
  • Increased reliance on foreign suppliers for critical defense/weapons systems
  • Stagnant wages
  • Lower labor participation rates
  • Increasingly aggressive China

There area few to get you started.

The first 4 are all side effects of capitalism as a whole, and not necessarily a bad thing. Government assistance programs to help small businesses startups that buck those trends maintain competitiveness would help, but the trends you pointed out of foreign suppliers, closing factories, and lower labor participation rates is not due to some globalist agenda, but a result of a capitalist environment taking advantage of technology that has made our world smaller.

As far as Chinese aggression, you'll need to give some specific examples of what you mean.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby bucfanclw » Wed May 15, 2019 12:55 pm

Buc2 wrote:
bucfanclw wrote:So tell me the difference, oh wise one. Why is 2 years of tax increases while giving handouts different than, say free medical care for people that can't afford it?

What tax increases? My taxes have not increased the last 2 years.

The costs of goods are going up due to the tariffs. That is causing an indirect tax on the American people.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby TheChefO » Wed May 15, 2019 1:05 pm

bucfanclw wrote:...not due to some globalist agenda...


Right.

It just so happens that while we are closing down factories, new ones are springing up in Mexico, China, etc ... Also just a coincidence that much of the same equipment that was here, is now there instead. Many times workers there were trained by their US counterparts...

Seriously?

As for China aggression, it's in multiple facets. South China Sea, increased weapons spending, stealing top secret technology, poisoning our kids, pets, homes, etc.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby uscbucsfan » Wed May 15, 2019 1:06 pm

TheChefO wrote:
bucfanclw wrote:Define the problem


Problem(s):
  • Trend of us manufacturers shutting down factories (either moving/relocation equipment offshore, or switching suppliers completely)
  • Increased reliance on foreign suppliers for critical defense/weapons systems
  • Stagnant wages
  • Lower labor participation rates
  • Increasingly aggressive China

There area few to get you started.

-We can't fill factory jobs and foreign factories provide cheaper goods, which increase consumerism, boosting the economy, lowering prices to consumers.
-We are the largest manufacturer of weapons/defense in the world by a ridiculous margin.
- Wages have been stagnant in our low paying jobs, but the raises are getting to those jobs now. Everyone else has been seeing a boost for some time now.
- We have 7+ million job openings, over 500k in manufacturing alone. We can't fill what we have.
- I've always said China was a bigger threat than Russia. There's been like 10 Chinese hacking that were basically swept under the rug, but trading with them helps every portion of our economy from the poor to the rich. The whole concept that we can't survive in a trade imbalance is bogus and has been proven so for 100 years. We are a consumer driven economy as stated, lower cost/prices helps all aspects.

edit: You are playing the China aspect up to fit your agenda. You've stated many times that you want to do this with all countries that manufacturers use like Mexico/India/etc.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby Brazen331 » Wed May 15, 2019 1:14 pm

TheChefO wrote:
bucfanclw wrote:...not due to some globalist agenda...


Right.

It just so happens that while we are closing down factories, new ones are springing up in Mexico, China, etc ... Also just a coincidence that much of the same equipment that was here, is now there instead. Many times workers there were trained by their US counterparts...

Seriously?

As for China aggression, it's in multiple facets. South China Sea, increased weapons spending, stealing top secret technology, poisoning our kids, pets, homes, etc.


Good response to to the moronic crap Clewster posted about passive, non-threatening China. Evidently, Clewy is supporting Biden. He sounds almost as stupid as Biden on China. But Biden has an excuse; he has been bought off by China. Wonder what Clewy’s China angle is?
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby TheChefO » Wed May 15, 2019 1:23 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:edit: You are playing the China aspect up to fit your agenda...


That was one bullet point. And yes, there are many other countries that have taken advantage of the stupidity sellouts in Washington going along with trade deals that tariff our products going into their countries while expecting none on the way into ours.

As for it being a "tax", here's a really simple way to avoid that tax...

"Made in the USA"
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby uscbucsfan » Wed May 15, 2019 1:29 pm

TheChefO wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:
As for it being a "tax", here's a really simple way to avoid that tax...

"Made in the USA"


How do you figure that?

You actively avoid the questions about us being able to fill positions or the increased cost. The "tax" to force that everything be made in America would be high. The goods would cost more to the consumers. That's not good for anyone. Outside of appealing to your absurd nationalism, I don't see any benefit for businesses or consumers to follow your model.

Most of the things you suggest, usually with massive overreaching government, are bad for consumers and business. Things that you have suggested are nationalizing businesses, breaking up companies just because they are large, or government control of entire industries...

I don't understand your reasoning outside of the want to control people? Isolationism?

Help me out here.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby TheChefO » Wed May 15, 2019 1:39 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:...You actively avoid the questions about us being able to fill positions ...


That's because it's a ridiculous argument. BLS labor participation rate is still below where it was a decade ago. The unemployment rate is a nice marketing point, but that's about all it's worth. I understand why Trump touts it as the same bogus statistic Obama used just makes Trump look better. Doesn't change the reality in the market though.

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https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS11300000

Most of the things you suggest...


I want more efficient government and more efficient companies. I want companies that are here to benefit the citizens here. Same for the Government.

Pretty basic stuff really.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby bucfanclw » Wed May 15, 2019 1:40 pm

Brazen331 wrote:
TheChefO wrote:
Right.

It just so happens that while we are closing down factories, new ones are springing up in Mexico, China, etc ... Also just a coincidence that much of the same equipment that was here, is now there instead. Many times workers there were trained by their US counterparts...

Seriously?

As for China aggression, it's in multiple facets. South China Sea, increased weapons spending, stealing top secret technology, poisoning our kids, pets, homes, etc.


Good response to to the moronic crap Clewster posted about passive, non-threatening China. Evidently, Clewy is supporting Biden. He sounds almost as stupid as Biden on China. But Biden has an excuse; he has been bought off by China. Wonder what Clewy’s China angle is?

Brazen's hatred of me is so deep he doesn't even realize he's arguing against capitalism.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby Zarniwoop » Wed May 15, 2019 1:59 pm

TheChefO wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:...You actively avoid the questions about us being able to fill positions ...


That's because it's a ridiculous argument. BLS labor participation rate is still below where it was a decade ago. The unemployment rate is a nice marketing point, but that's about all it's worth. I understand why Trump touts it as the same bogus statistic Obama used just makes Trump look better. Doesn't change the reality in the market though.

Image

https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS11300000

Most of the things you suggest...


I want more efficient government and more efficient companies. I want companies that are here to benefit the citizens here. Same for the Government.

Pretty basic stuff really.


Do you know how they calculate BLS? And what the biggest drivers of the decline have been? The Atlanta FED did a good analysis on it not too long ago.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby uscbucsfan » Wed May 15, 2019 2:22 pm

TheChefO wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:...You actively avoid the questions about us being able to fill positions ...


That's because it's a ridiculous argument. BLS labor participation rate is still below where it was a decade ago. The unemployment rate is a nice marketing point, but that's about all it's worth. I understand why Trump touts it as the same bogus statistic Obama used just makes Trump look better. Doesn't change the reality in the market though.

Image

https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/LNS11300000

Most of the things you suggest...


I want more efficient government and more efficient companies. I want companies that are here to benefit the citizens here. Same for the Government.

Pretty basic stuff really.


Again you avoided the questions I asked and went back to the labor participation rate and unemployment, when I referred to the job openings that are not and have not been filled. It doesn't matter what the number of people that are not participating in the work force. Unless you are proposing to cut assistance, most aren't going to work with additional jobs, either...but instead you want to add UBI to the equation.

What you want would completely destroy capitalism and our economy as we know it.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby TheChefO » Wed May 15, 2019 2:29 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:...Again you avoided the questions I asked and went back to the labor participation rate and unemployment...


If you are an employer, and you'd prefer to hire a controlled asset (H1B) instead of a US worker, you'd put out a ridiculous ad, claim you can't find the worker(s) to fill the role, and then use the example(s) to lobby for further H1B (or other) cheap, controlled labor.

Wages are just now starting to move upward. This is a real sign that the labor market is tightening. How many fake ads are posted is irrelevant.
Labor participation and wages tell the real story.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby TheChefO » Wed May 15, 2019 2:29 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:...The Atlanta FED did a good analysis on it not too long ago.


By all means, share.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby uscbucsfan » Wed May 15, 2019 2:31 pm

TheChefO wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:...Again you avoided the questions I asked and went back to the labor participation rate and unemployment...


If you are an employer, and you'd prefer to hire a controlled asset (H1B) instead of a US worker, you'd put out a ridiculous ad, claim you can't find the worker(s) to fill the role, and then use the example(s) to lobby for further H1B (or other) cheap, controlled labor.

Wages are just now starting to move upward. This is a real sign that the labor market is tightening. How many fake ads are posted is irrelevant.
Labor participation and wages tell the real story.

You live in fantasy land..
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby TheChefO » Wed May 15, 2019 2:39 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:
TheChefO wrote:
If you are an employer, and you'd prefer to hire a controlled asset (H1B) instead of a US worker, you'd put out a ridiculous ad, claim you can't find the worker(s) to fill the role, and then use the example(s) to lobby for further H1B (or other) cheap, controlled labor.

Wages are just now starting to move upward. This is a real sign that the labor market is tightening. How many fake ads are posted is irrelevant.
Labor participation and wages tell the real story.

You live in fantasy land..


Right, because companies would never take action to undercut US workers in favor of H1B workers:
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/us/l ... ments.html
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby uscbucsfan » Wed May 15, 2019 2:43 pm

TheChefO wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:You live in fantasy land..


Right, because companies would never take action to undercut US workers in favor of H1B workers:
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/us/l ... ments.html

That has nothing to do with your unsubstantiated claim that companies all over the country are posting millions of bogus jobs to fill them with H1B laborers. Why would they even post them if that was their goal? Why do interviews?

edit: There are only 419,000 H1B workers in the US. The math doesn't even make sense to appease your crazy conspiracy.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby RedLeader » Wed May 15, 2019 3:12 pm

bucfanclw wrote:
RedLeader wrote:
Sorry. That’s a left argument. One I’m sure you’ve made before, by either bringing up schools, cops, or the military as a gotcha quote... or bailouts, as you're trying to make the case for now. Wouldn’t be surprised if you considered disaster relief / FEMA as socialism in the same vein, as well.


Like I said. Do better than Vox.

So tell me the difference, oh wise one. Why is 2 years of tax increases while giving handouts different than, say free medical care for people that can't afford it?


You might want to start with the definition of ‘socialism’...

Definition of socialism:

1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property
b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

Please tell me what, if any of that applies to tariffs or government bailouts, et al.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby RedLeader » Wed May 15, 2019 3:24 pm

bucfanclw wrote:
Buc2 wrote:What tax increases? My taxes have not increased the last 2 years.

The costs of goods are going up due to the tariffs. That is causing an indirect tax on the American people.


I think you’re conflating two seperate definitions of ‘tax’.

Do you mean ‘tax’ as in something taking a toll on someone. Like, “That yard work was taxing on my back..”

Or like an actual tax, where people are being “forced to pay a sum of money, demanded by the government for its support or for specific facilities or services...”

Neither quite fit your narrative, really, but wanted to be sure, as this may be where the confusion is coming from.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby uscbucsfan » Wed May 15, 2019 3:38 pm

RedLeader wrote:
bucfanclw wrote:The costs of goods are going up due to the tariffs. That is causing an indirect tax on the American people.


I think you’re conflating two seperate definitions of ‘tax’.

Do you mean ‘tax’ as in something taking a toll on someone. Like, “That yard work was taxing on my back..”

Or like an actual tax, where people are being “forced to pay a sum of money, demanded by the government for its support or for specific facilities or services...”

Neither quite fit your narrative, really, but wanted to be sure, as this may be where the confusion is coming from.


A company that has to pay a % in tariffs and pass that number down to the consumers, therefore the consumers are paying additional money that goes to the US government. You can't see that connection as an "indirect tax"?

Sounds like you're just trying to argue something here. His point are the cost of goods rise to pay the US government for the tariffs, so the consumers are hit hardest on them.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby Brazen331 » Wed May 15, 2019 4:10 pm

bucfanclw wrote:
Brazen331 wrote:
Good response to to the moronic crap Clewster posted about passive, non-threatening China. Evidently, Clewy is supporting Biden. He sounds almost as stupid as Biden on China. But Biden has an excuse; he has been bought off by China. Wonder what Clewy’s China angle is?

Brazen's hatred of me is so deep he doesn't even realize he's arguing against capitalism.


I don’t hate you, Clewy. I just don’t think Capitalism means capitulating to China. We are not dealing with a nation here but rather a political party that is a metastasizing and malignant cancer on this planet, a party that has slaughtered and starved tens of millions of its own citizens by the way.

When would you like to deal with these criminals, now or when their economy is 3 times the size of ours’? I doubt they will listen to anything we say then.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby RedLeader » Wed May 15, 2019 4:20 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:
RedLeader wrote:
I think you’re conflating two seperate definitions of ‘tax’.

Do you mean ‘tax’ as in something taking a toll on someone. Like, “That yard work was taxing on my back..”

Or like an actual tax, where people are being “forced to pay a sum of money, demanded by the government for its support or for specific facilities or services...”

Neither quite fit your narrative, really, but wanted to be sure, as this may be where the confusion is coming from.


A company that has to pay a % in tariffs and pass that number down to the consumers, therefore the consumers are paying additional money that goes to the US government. You can't see that connection as an "indirect tax"?

Sounds like you're just trying to argue something here. His point are the cost of goods rise to pay the US government for the tariffs, so the consumers are hit hardest on them.


“Indirect taxes” does not a socialist system, make. That’s the point. Get real.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby bucfanclw » Wed May 15, 2019 5:26 pm

LOL @ Red Leader actually trying to make the argument that a tariff isnt a tax.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby RedLeader » Wed May 15, 2019 7:41 pm

bucfanclw wrote:LOL @ Red Leader actually trying to make the argument that a tariff isnt a tax.


haha. Ok, buddy... you got me. Trump is a total socialist.


You win. lol
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby MJW » Thu May 16, 2019 1:52 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
MJW wrote:
It's a symbiotic relationship best characterized by what the youngsters call "Crony Capitalism."

Big Business and it's lobbyists/politicians/lobbyists who used to be politicians/politicians who used to be lobbyists pass laws that benefit big business but crush free market competition.
Big Business bankrolls politicians who play ball.
The rest of us get steamrolled.
They're all to blame.
Coming to the conclusion more government will fix it is silly.

I don't disagree with your assessment of the situation. Which is why I like politicians who don't take their money.


Maybe, but a guy with 3 houses knows how to get wet.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby mdb1958 » Thu May 16, 2019 5:03 am

I still think any results would later show none of them were out to improve America or it's citizens.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby NavyBuc » Thu May 16, 2019 7:05 am

Another candidate announces he’s running...Bill DeBlasio. I believe that’s 24 candidates now.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby HamBone » Thu May 16, 2019 7:37 am

bucfanclw wrote:LOL @ Red Leader actually trying to make the argument that a tariff isnt a tax.


Almost as funny as Obama arguing a fine isn’t a tax to the Americans People...and then arguing it is in front of the SC. Lol
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