CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby RedLeader » Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:15 am

Im just surprised this sucker hasnt been touched in almost 10 days.



I guess theres been no real news on the subject lately, eh?





Lol.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby mdb1958 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:35 am

Watched the hearing, sweety pie is up today.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby Brazen331 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:31 am

mdb1958 wrote:Watched the hearing, sweety pie is up today.


They should have put the skank in a sound-proof room until she testifies. She just wanted to see what Strzok would say first so they could coordinate their lies.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby DreadNaught » Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:31 am

12 Russian Intelligence officers were indicted today by the DoJ as part of the Mueller investigation for hacking the voter information of 500k people out of the DNC computers.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby bucfanclw » Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:36 am

DreadNaught wrote:12 Russian Intelligence officers were indicted today by the DoJ as part of the Mueller investigation for hacking the voter information of 500k people out of the DNC computers.

Nothingburger
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby DreadNaught » Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:46 am

bucfanclw wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:12 Russian Intelligence officers were indicted today by the DoJ as part of the Mueller investigation for hacking the voter information of 500k people out of the DNC computers.

Nothingburger

These indictments appear to be specific to the "DCleaks and Guccifer 2.0". It's was already assumed Russia was behind those imo and we're never going to see any of these 12 Russians in handcuffs, just as we won't see the other Russians that have been indicted.

I'd like to see an indictment for Carter Page since he's been the alleged ring leader. No American has been indicted for connections with Russian election interference still. Manafort is being held on financial crimes that pre-date the 2016 election in hopes he'll flip. Flynn was indicted for lying to the FBI after he was (arguably) entrapped.

So still no Trump-Russia collusion.

Most people acknowledge the Russians interfered. The question people care about imo is what Americans were involved in election interference and did those people work for the Trump campaign. So in regards to that, I agree these indictments don't mean much. But in terms of Russian election interference itself, it's certainly a development as it names Russian intelligence specifically being involved.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby mdb1958 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:55 am

Who is to say that they had so much success the last two elections that they figured they would try again.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby Buc2 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:35 pm

mdb1958 wrote:Who is to say that they had so much success the last two elections that they figured they would try again.

Obama was so easy to steamroll, maybe they wanted him to win.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby uscbucsfan » Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:49 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
bucfanclw wrote:Nothingburger



So still no Trump-Russia collusion.


If enough evidence was released that convinced people of collusion, then what? What law would you interpret that Trump violated? Collusion itself is not illegal. Would it be Contributions and donations by foreign nationals? Can anyone argue treason? Fraud?

Basically, what does collusion mean to you, because the word in itself is not illegal.

For impeachment the following criteria needs to be met; "The President, Vice President, and all civil Officers of the United States shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other High Crimes and Misdemeanors". I guess it depends on how you define misdemeanors.

edit: These talking points were stolen from Alan Dershowitz, but I think it could open up a good debate...or sink to the bottom of the thread.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby DreadNaught » Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:07 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:

So still no Trump-Russia collusion.


If enough evidence was released that convinced people of collusion, then what? What law would you interpret that Trump violated? Collusion itself is not illegal. Would it be Contributions and donations by foreign nationals? Can anyone argue treason? Fraud?

Basically, what does collusion mean to you, because the word in itself is not illegal.

For impeachment the following criteria needs to be met; "The President, Vice President, and all civil Officers of the United States shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other High Crimes and Misdemeanors". I guess it depends on how you define misdemeanors.


Not sure. But I think that would take care of itself IF and WHEN there is such EVIDENCE the connects Trump to Russian election interference.

As I stated at the beginning of this thread, if there is evidence of Trump being connected to these election interference attempts by the Russians than he should be impeached. I voted for the guy hope he does well but that seems like a no-brainer. Not sure how any reasonable person would support a President that knowingly colluded with a foreign country to interfere in our elections. I realize some are already convinced that is a fact, but that belief isn't based on facts/evidence to this point.

But Russian election interference, even in an effort help one candidate over another is one thing. There needs to be evidence to bridge the gap that would connect it to Trump. That still doesn't exist to this point, atleast not publicly.

When I look at ALL the data it still seems like the initial intel report had it right. Russian interfered in an information campaign to polarize Americans racially and politically. It seems that campaign was successful.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby The Outsider » Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:10 pm

Guccifer 2.0? Oh you mean the guy that Roger Stone is on record bragging about being buddy buddy with. The same Roger Stone who was, at the time, working for the Trump campaign.


Nothing to see here.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby uscbucsfan » Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:14 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:If enough evidence was released that convinced people of collusion, then what? What law would you interpret that Trump violated? Collusion itself is not illegal. Would it be Contributions and donations by foreign nationals? Can anyone argue treason? Fraud?

Basically, what does collusion mean to you, because the word in itself is not illegal.

For impeachment the following criteria needs to be met; "The President, Vice President, and all civil Officers of the United States shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other High Crimes and Misdemeanors". I guess it depends on how you define misdemeanors.


Not sure. But I think that would take care of itself IF and WHEN there is such EVIDENCE the connects Trump to Russian election interference.

As I stated at the beginning of this thread, if there is evidence of Trump being connected to these election interference attempts by the Russians than he should be impeached. I voted for the guy hope he does well but that seems like a no-brainer. No reasonable person would support a President that knowingly colluded with a foreign country to interfere in our elections.

But Russian election interference, even in an effort help one candidate over another is one thing. There needs to be evidence to bridge the gap that would connect it to Trump. That still doesn't exist to this point, atleast not publicly.

When I look at ALL the data it still seems like the initial intel report had it right. Russian interfered in an information campaign to polarize Americans racially and politically. It seems that campaign was successful.


Define connection and as I stated before, just because it may be bad, it may not be illegal (much like violating the Emolument Clause). I think the verbiage of the impeachment laws should be pretty black and white, until it comes down to misdemeanor. They have to violate some sort of crime.

So what if Russia called Trump or someone on his campaign and asked if they wanted the e-mails? Impeachable? If so, do you think constitutes as a contribution from a foreign government? Do you believe that no reasonable person would support a President that knowingly received intel on an opponent to win an election?
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby DreadNaught » Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:35 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:Define connection and as I stated before, just because it may be bad, it may not be illegal (much like violating the Emolument Clause). I think the verbiage of the impeachment laws should be pretty black and white, until it comes down to misdemeanor. They have to violate some sort of crime.

So what if Russia called Trump or someone on his campaign and asked if they wanted the e-mails? Impeachable? If so, do you think constitutes as a contribution from a foreign government? Do you believe that no reasonable person would support a President that knowingly received intel on an opponent to win an election?


We're getting into hypotheticals but for me some basic connection would be Trump coordinated and/or solicited/requested Russian election interference.
Basically something that shows Trump had knowledge of the actions Russia was undertaking.

If Trump knew about the Podesta emails and coordinated/colluded in any way on their release than he should be impeached, not sure under what grounds but the Dems have lawyers to figure that out.

Receiving intel on a political opponent is not necessarily criminal or reason not to support them. It's a dirty part of elections to a some degree and rarely ethical. The Clinton controlled DNC outsourced with a former MI6 operative to dig up anything they could on Trump and few, if any Hillary supporters jumped ship.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby uscbucsfan » Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:43 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:Define connection and as I stated before, just because it may be bad, it may not be illegal (much like violating the Emolument Clause). I think the verbiage of the impeachment laws should be pretty black and white, until it comes down to misdemeanor. They have to violate some sort of crime.

So what if Russia called Trump or someone on his campaign and asked if they wanted the e-mails? Impeachable? If so, do you think constitutes as a contribution from a foreign government? Do you believe that no reasonable person would support a President that knowingly received intel on an opponent to win an election?


If Trump knew about the Podesta emails and coordinated/colluded in any way on their release than he should be impeached, not sure under what grounds but the Dems have lawyers to figure that out.

Receiving intel on a political opponent is not necessarily criminal or reason not to support them. It's a dirty part of elections to a some degree and rarely ethical. The Clinton controlled DNC outsourced with a former MI6 operative to dig up anything they could on Trump and few, if any Hillary supporters jumped ship.


You contradict yourself here, no?

Wouldn't the Podesta e-mails constitute as intel? What about them changes things for you?

It matters under what grounds of impeachment, it should be a very strict rarely used circumstance following the law, not because it's something you disagree with. Your answer of, "Dems have lawyers to figure that out" is pretty terrible, IMO.

I hope others join in on this.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby uscbucsfan » Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:47 pm

FWIW, I believe that it would violate the US Code regarding contribution from foreign nationals. As this intel had immense value, some, like Dershowitz do not.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:51 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:Define connection and as I stated before, just because it may be bad, it may not be illegal (much like violating the Emolument Clause). I think the verbiage of the impeachment laws should be pretty black and white, until it comes down to misdemeanor. They have to violate some sort of crime.

So what if Russia called Trump or someone on his campaign and asked if they wanted the e-mails? Impeachable? If so, do you think constitutes as a contribution from a foreign government? Do you believe that no reasonable person would support a President that knowingly received intel on an opponent to win an election?


We're getting into hypotheticals but for me some basic connection would be Trump coordinated and/or solicited/requested Russian election interference.
Basically something that shows Trump had knowledge of the actions Russia was undertaking.

If Trump knew about the Podesta emails and coordinated/colluded in any way on their release than he should be impeached, not sure under what grounds but the Dems have lawyers to figure that out.

Receiving intel on a political opponent is not necessarily criminal or reason not to support them. It's a dirty part of elections to a some degree and rarely ethical. The Clinton controlled DNC outsourced with a former MI6 operative to dig up anything they could on Trump and few, if any Hillary supporters jumped ship.

Here's the thing. Fusion GPS is a political opposition research firm in Washington DC that employed Steele. Mueller just indicted a bunch of Russian hackers.

Regardless of collusion, crimes were committed and men like Manafort are getting prosecuted for it. That is an indisputable fact.

Which leaves us with the other fact that the President seems to be interested in preventing this investigation from continuing which leads to the question of why would he do that?
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby uscbucsfan » Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:54 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
We're getting into hypotheticals but for me some basic connection would be Trump coordinated and/or solicited/requested Russian election interference.
Basically something that shows Trump had knowledge of the actions Russia was undertaking.

If Trump knew about the Podesta emails and coordinated/colluded in any way on their release than he should be impeached, not sure under what grounds but the Dems have lawyers to figure that out.

Receiving intel on a political opponent is not necessarily criminal or reason not to support them. It's a dirty part of elections to a some degree and rarely ethical. The Clinton controlled DNC outsourced with a former MI6 operative to dig up anything they could on Trump and few, if any Hillary supporters jumped ship.

Here's the thing. Fusion GPS is a political opposition research firm in Washington DC that employed Steele. Mueller just indicted a bunch of Russian hackers.

Regardless of collusion, crimes were committed and men like Manafort are getting prosecuted for it. That is an indisputable fact.


Right, but just because they committed crimes, doesn't mean Trump has, at least that's the argument. If someone stole the information and then offered it to Trump after the fact, Dershowitz argues that no crime is committed.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:57 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:Here's the thing. Fusion GPS is a political opposition research firm in Washington DC that employed Steele. Mueller just indicted a bunch of Russian hackers.

Regardless of collusion, crimes were committed and men like Manafort are getting prosecuted for it. That is an indisputable fact.


Right, but just because they committed crimes, doesn't mean Trump has, at least that's the argument. If someone stole the information and then offered it to Trump after the fact, Dershowitz argues that no crime is committed.

And he may be correct. But crimes were committed so there is no reasonable justification to shut down this "witch-hunt".
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby uscbucsfan » Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:57 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:
Right, but just because they committed crimes, doesn't mean Trump has, at least that's the argument. If someone stole the information and then offered it to Trump after the fact, Dershowitz argues that no crime is committed.

And he may be correct. But crimes were committed so there is no reasonable justification to shut down this "witch-hunt".

100% agree with that.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby DreadNaught » Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:09 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
If Trump knew about the Podesta emails and coordinated/colluded in any way on their release than he should be impeached, not sure under what grounds but the Dems have lawyers to figure that out.

Receiving intel on a political opponent is not necessarily criminal or reason not to support them. It's a dirty part of elections to a some degree and rarely ethical. The Clinton controlled DNC outsourced with a former MI6 operative to dig up anything they could on Trump and few, if any Hillary supporters jumped ship.


You contradict yourself here, no?

Wouldn't the Podesta e-mails constitute as intel? What about them changes things for you?

It matters under what grounds of impeachment, it should be a very strict rarely used circumstance following the law, not because it's something you disagree with. Your answer of, "Dems have lawyers to figure that out" is pretty terrible, IMO.

I hope others join in on this.


I assumed by intel, you were talking political research/dirt. But I see what you're saying now and stand by my point about Trump and the Podesta emails. If Trump received, requested, or coordinated their release with the Russians I'd support removing him from office.

I don't know the impeachment laws and am not a lawyer. I just know that at minimum unless something ties to Trump having knowledge of what the Russians were doing he shouldn't be removed from office. Nothing released today changes that so we're still not there yet.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby DreadNaught » Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:11 pm

The investigation is a cloud over his Presidency is why. Isn't that obvious?

Assuming Trump was never privied to any of this (alleged) information/collusion w/ Russians, he would feel he's innocent and want this cloud removed b/c everytime there is news about it there is rat race to connect it to him.

That is selfish way to look at for sure. But Trump is a selfish guy.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby uscbucsfan » Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:13 pm

I think you are being naive, dread. I'll elaborate more later.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby DreadNaught » Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:18 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:I think you are being naive, dread. I'll elaborate more later.


I think I get what you're saying. I agree that Trump needs to let the investigation play itself out. It's in the interest of the country as whole to let Mueller finish his job here.

I was just saying it isn't in his own or his Presidency's best interest so I get why he would want it ended. He feels targeted and it's likely he doesn't know all the facts if any of his campaign were potentially involved Russian election interference activities.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby NavyBuc » Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:23 pm

Too much smoke here for there not to be fire. Still, given the republicans having around 53 senators next term and needing 67 votes to get thrown out of office, what they find will have to be big. Impeachment is just a slap on the wrist. It’s the trial in the Senate that is the big show.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby The Outsider » Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:59 pm

Just a reminder that the DOJ mandate has them investigating collusion between the Campaign for Donal Trump and the Russian government. So there need not be a direct link to Trump for the investigation to find said collusion.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby The Outsider » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:03 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:I think you are being naive, dread. I'll elaborate more later.


I think I get what you're saying. I agree that Trump needs to let the investigation play itself out. It's in the interest of the country as whole to let Mueller finish his job here.

I was just saying it isn't in his own or his Presidency's best interest so I get why he would want it ended. He feels targeted and it's likely he doesn't know all the facts if any of his campaign were potentially involved Russian election interference activities.



Frankly, if I knew I were innocent I'd have no problem letting the investigation play out.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby NavyBuc » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:04 pm

The Outsider wrote:Just a reminder that the DOJ mandate has them investigating collusion between the Campaign for Donal Trump and the Russian government. So there need not be a direct link to Trump for the investigation to find said collusion.


Exactly. It's similar to the whole Nixon investigation in that they always had a case tying it to the Nixon campaign but could they tie it directly to Nixon, and finally they did. That's going to be the whole ballgame here is whether they have evidence to tie it directly to Trump himself. If they can't, chances are he's not going to be convicted, although he will prolly get impeached based on the fact the Dems will likely own the House in 2019.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby The Outsider » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:16 pm

NavyBuc wrote:
The Outsider wrote:Just a reminder that the DOJ mandate has them investigating collusion between the Campaign for Donal Trump and the Russian government. So there need not be a direct link to Trump for the investigation to find said collusion.


Exactly. It's similar to the whole Nixon investigation in that they always had a case tying it to the Nixon campaign but could they tie it directly to Nixon, and finally they did. That's going to be the whole ballgame here is whether they have evidence to tie it directly to Trump himself. If they can't, chances are he's not going to be convicted, although he will prolly get impeached based on the fact the Dems will likely own the House in 2019.


And honestly, if he has no connection to it I'll feel a hell of a lot better even if it won't do anything to make me like the guy.

But I hated the Donald before it was cool.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:22 pm

NavyBuc wrote:
The Outsider wrote:Just a reminder that the DOJ mandate has them investigating collusion between the Campaign for Donal Trump and the Russian government. So there need not be a direct link to Trump for the investigation to find said collusion.


Exactly. It's similar to the whole Nixon investigation in that they always had a case tying it to the Nixon campaign but could they tie it directly to Nixon, and finally they did. That's going to be the whole ballgame here is whether they have evidence to tie it directly to Trump himself. If they can't, chances are he's not going to be convicted, although he will prolly get impeached based on the fact the Dems will likely own the House in 2019.

Very very small chance it plays out this way but...


The GOP in the Senate could hang Trump out to dry if a direct link is there and its too solid to ignore. Trump has fanatical support from 30% of the electorate but if he becomes a sinking ship, I could see them blowing up the Administration to open the field for 2020

That's pie in the sky, but at least plausible.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby NavyBuc » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:34 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
NavyBuc wrote:
Exactly. It's similar to the whole Nixon investigation in that they always had a case tying it to the Nixon campaign but could they tie it directly to Nixon, and finally they did. That's going to be the whole ballgame here is whether they have evidence to tie it directly to Trump himself. If they can't, chances are he's not going to be convicted, although he will prolly get impeached based on the fact the Dems will likely own the House in 2019.

Very very small chance it plays out this way but...


The GOP in the Senate could hang Trump out to dry if a direct link is there and its too solid to ignore. Trump has fanatical support from 30% of the electorate but if he becomes a sinking ship, I could see them blowing up the Administration to open the field for 2020

That's pie in the sky, but at least plausible.


Well, this is why I think republicans are itching to get this report out in the open and done with. If Trump's guilty as can be, they're thinking "let's get him out and we have two years to heal our wounds and try and save some face." My personal gut is that Pence has nothing to do with this so he would escape clean and be put up for 2020.

Don't forget, this is just the Russian investigation. There's the Stormy Daniels stuff, too, which could land him in some big trouble. It's going to be interesting to see how much Cohen knows and if has the golden ticket the Mueller team is looking for, if he hands it over.

I'm actually somewhat surprised Trump hasn't fired Mueller yet. I know it will make him look bad, but since when does Trump care about what people around him think?
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