Immigration question for the Progressives

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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:47 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:If we can actually secure our border and allow border agents and then later ICE to do their jobs, I am all for doubling legal immigration....I've wrote about this before and even talked about more than doubling immigration in times where the economy is booming (like it is now) and there are jobs aplenty for people coming here.

But until this ridiculous game of emotional tugging of the heart strings for political advantage is culled, we will never have a serious discussion...and shame on anyone who partakes in that nonsense.

As DN said, until we can recognize our sovereignty and understand that people who try to enter our country illegal are criminals that are breaking the law and they deserve to be treated as such (regardless of the nobility of their intent to create a better life for their kids and themselves) Immigration will be nothing more than a political toy. And that's really ****ing sad, because there are millions of families that try to do it the right way that are getting fucked by people doing it the wrong way.

No argument with your sentiment and I've heard a lot of conservatives echo that sentiment with regards to increasing or even doubling legal immigration which is good.

But there needs to to be a clear, concise, non-partisan message to the President that what is happening right now is NOT the way it should be dealt with.


I will repeat what I have always said (often times to the opposition of the board) -- we should have as few laws in this country as possible. The ones we do have must be enforced. People are free to break those laws...I break traffic laws all the time...but they have to deal with the outcomes.

The shitty laws should be immediately rejected and overturned by Congress, not the Executive branch. Congress has the power to stop this very quickly. We will see if they have the balls to actually act.

We simply can't pick and choose when to enforce laws. There's nothing more elitist or prone to corruption than that.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:55 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:No argument with your sentiment and I've heard a lot of conservatives echo that sentiment with regards to increasing or even doubling legal immigration which is good.

But there needs to to be a clear, concise, non-partisan message to the President that what is happening right now is NOT the way it should be dealt with.


I will repeat what I have always said (often times to the opposition of the board) -- we should have as few laws in this country as possible. The ones we do have must be enforced. People are free to break those laws...I break traffic laws all the time...but they have to deal with the outcomes.

The shitty laws should be immediately rejected and overturned by Congress, not the Executive branch. Congress has the power to stop this very quickly. We will see if they have the balls to actually act.

We simply can't pick and choose when to enforce laws. There's nothing more elitist or prone to corruption than that.

This is not a matter of law, it's a matter of application of the law. and that is very much in the President's wheelhouse.

You violate traffic laws. Does that mean the state should to arrest and hold you without bail until your day in traffic court for an illegal U-Turn?

Nobody is debating the legality of the U-turn, the only matter in contention is how to enforce that law. It is a matter of what is just treatment and due process.
Last edited by Mountaineer Buc on Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:56 pm

sorry. I had to edit that a couple times.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:00 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:This is not a matter of law, it's a matter of application of the law. and that is very much in the President's wheelhouse.

You violate traffic laws. Does that mean the state should to arrest and hold you without bail until your day in traffic court for an illegal U-Turn?

Nobody is debating the legality of the U-turn, only the matter in contention is how to enforce that law. It is a matter of what is just treatment and due process.


of course its a matter of the law...if there wasn't a law there would be no application.




There are plenty of laws that you can break that require the person to remain in custody or be bailed out. When a citizen is bailed out they have a legal right to be in the US so they are set free. People breaking immigration laws and illegally entering the country have no legal right to be let go in the US while awaiting trial.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:40 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:This is not a matter of law, it's a matter of application of the law. and that is very much in the President's wheelhouse.

You violate traffic laws. Does that mean the state should to arrest and hold you without bail until your day in traffic court for an illegal U-Turn?

Nobody is debating the legality of the U-turn, only the matter in contention is how to enforce that law. It is a matter of what is just treatment and due process.


of course its a matter of the law...if there wasn't a law there would be no application.




There are plenty of laws that you can break that require the person to remain in custody or be bailed out. When a citizen is bailed out they have a legal right to be in the US so they are set free. People breaking immigration laws and illegally entering the country have no legal right to be let go in the US while awaiting trial.

Again. Nobody is debating the law itself. The debate is how that law should be enforced.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:15 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:Again. Nobody is debating the law itself. The debate is how that law should be enforced.




I don't understand what point of mine you are missing.....The law should be enforced as written...as should all laws (that is me talking about enforcement). To my understanding the law is being followed. People illegally entering the country are being treated in a criminal process.



If you think the executive should pick and choose what laws to follow and when to follow them, all the power to you. I don't. I would rather the law be re-written and changed.


I think the law can very easily be rewritten such that these criminal proceedings for illegal immigration do not require separation of the parent from their children provided they can prove the child is theirs. I would 100% support such a change.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Ken Carson » Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:35 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:If we can actually secure our border and allow border agents and then later ICE to do their jobs, I am all for doubling legal immigration....I've wrote about this before and even talked about more than doubling immigration in times where the economy is booming (like it is now) and there are jobs aplenty for people coming here.

But until this ridiculous game of emotional tugging of the heart strings for political advantage is culled, we will never have a serious discussion...and shame on anyone who partakes in that nonsense.

As DN said, until we can recognize our sovereignty and understand that people who try to enter our country illegal are criminals that are breaking the law and they deserve to be treated as such (regardless of the nobility of their intent to create a better life for their kids and themselves) Immigration will be nothing more than a political toy. And that's really ****ing sad, because there are millions of families that try to do it the right way that are getting fucked by people doing it the wrong way.

No argument with your sentiment and I've heard a lot of conservatives echo that sentiment with regards to increasing or even doubling legal immigration which is good.

But there needs to to be a clear, concise, non-partisan message to the President that what is happening right now is NOT the way it should be dealt with.

And the message should come from Congress passing legislation. All these people who are out to get Trump should realize they have the ability to do so with laws.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Brazen331 » Wed Jun 20, 2018 3:22 am

Ken Carson wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:No argument with your sentiment and I've heard a lot of conservatives echo that sentiment with regards to increasing or even doubling legal immigration which is good.

But there needs to to be a clear, concise, non-partisan message to the President that what is happening right now is NOT the way it should be dealt with.

And the message should come from Congress passing legislation. All these people who are out to get Trump should realize they have the ability to do so with laws.


Do you really think your party wants a solution to this? Don’t you think they would rather have the issue in November to rile up the base?

I mean, Russian collusion is on life support and about to be deemed DOA. The plan for the Dems now must be to play identity politics and call Trump Hitler. Did the media spend one second on this issue when Obama was in charge and implementing the same damn policy?
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby mdb1958 » Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:02 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:
of course its a matter of the law...if there wasn't a law there would be no application.




There are plenty of laws that you can break that require the person to remain in custody or be bailed out. When a citizen is bailed out they have a legal right to be in the US so they are set free. People breaking immigration laws and illegally entering the country have no legal right to be let go in the US while awaiting trial.

Again. Nobody is debating the law itself. The debate is how that law should be enforced.



More like not enforced. That and not changing the laws to secure the border and eliminate loopholes. Lets think about this, if most people want the border secured then why isnt it happening? What states dont want it secured and why? It does seem like all the border states have been just fine with 50 years of breaking federal law.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby mdb1958 » Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:14 am

MB doesnt want to talk about how once they are here they can just walk away and disappear. Then they can join the millions already here ----------------- and it isnt fair for you to do anything about it.

How many of these 15 to 20 year olds will get here and start their own little criminal enterprises? This isnt much different than the Muslims saying they will infiltrate countries and destroy them from within.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Brazen331 » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:06 am

mdb is chumming the waters in the early morning hours. Just wait till the Progressives wake up.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:08 am

Brazen331 wrote:mdb is chumming the waters in the early morning hours. Just wait till the Progressives wake up.

Tell me about it. I haven't had any coffee yet and I'm reeling. Not sure what I'm gonna do.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby bucfanclw » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:27 am

Brazen331 wrote:mdb is chumming the waters in the early morning hours. Just wait till the Progressives wake up.

The guy that thinks claiming 0 on taxes and then waiting until next year to get a refund is sound financial advice? You guys certainly put your best intellectual foot forward with that guy.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby mightyleemoon » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:45 am

It seems Trump is all about trying to make the Government as big and as expensive as possible.

If his policy persists, we're going to have hundreds of thousands of Central/South American adults in prison awaiting trials (on our dime) and hundreds of thousands of Central/South American children in our government's care (on our dime).

We're losing more than we're gaining on this retarded policy. We're literally better off letting them in and trolling Home Depot parking lots for work than we are spending millions to keep them locked up.

It would be better to instantly drive them to the border and kick them out than to spend a pile of money keeping them in prisons. And, before you say something like "But they'll just turn around and try to get back in once we kick them out." ...what do you think will happen after Trump spends half of your paycheck keeping them locked up for 5 or 10 years? We'll drive them to the border and kick them out.

We had inefficient, horrible practices at the border for decades. So, I guess the fix is to just double down on the dumb.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby uscbucsfan » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:48 am

Welcome back.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Ken Carson » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:53 am

Brazen331 wrote:
Ken Carson wrote:And the message should come from Congress passing legislation. All these people who are out to get Trump should realize they have the ability to do so with laws.


Do you really think your party wants a solution to this? Don’t you think they would rather have the issue in November to rile up the base?

I mean, Russian collusion is on life support and about to be deemed DOA. The plan for the Dems now must be to play identity politics and call Trump Hitler. Did the media spend one second on this issue when Obama was in charge and implementing the same damn policy?

I hope that more of my party stops giving a **** about team politics and starts governing. The majority of Americans are sick of the blame game, leaving it mainly for fodder for social media sharing bozos. I believe that if Democrats lead, we will “win the war.”

Which is why I spend the majority of my keystrokes here trying to get liberals out of the team politics game while ignoring the conservative Pom Pom holders such as yourself.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby mightyleemoon » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:57 am

Zarniwoop wrote:I don't understand what point of mine you are missing.....


It looks more like you're missing his point.

But, let's talk about yours.

Would you prefer mandatory sentencing/processing for every single law? Take all the guesswork/bias out of it. Get caught with 1-5g of cocaine? 10 years. Mandatory. Get caught going 3 mph over the speed limit? 100 dollar fine. No more. No less. Mandatory. Get caught stealing something worth less than $1,000. 2 years probation and 100 community service hours. No more. No Less. Mandatory. Every time.

Okay. Let's do it.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Zarniwoop » Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:06 am

mightyleemoon wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:I don't understand what point of mine you are missing.....


It looks more like you're missing his point.

But, let's talk about yours.

Would you prefer mandatory sentencing/processing for every single law? Take all the guesswork/bias out of it. Get caught with 1-5g of cocaine? 10 years. Mandatory. Get caught going 3 mph over the speed limit? 100 dollar fine. No more. No less. Mandatory. Get caught stealing something worth less than $1,000. 2 years probation and 100 community service hours. No more. No Less. Mandatory. Every time.

Okay. Let's do it.


No. And none of those laws are written as such.


The combination of laws in this case are such that if you treat illegal entry as a criminal activity (and not a civil one) it essentially forced your hand to separate kids and parents because kids can’t be detained as long as parents do. It’s very easy to rewrite the laws in this case to NOT require it


Again, we should have as few laws as possible. The ones we do have should be carefully written such that they can be executed in a reasonable way. These laws are not. As such the executive has either the choice to

a.). Make every illegal entrant a civil matter
b.). Classify every illegal entrant as a criminal matter and thus break up families
c.). Classify every illegal entrant as a criminal matter and ignore the rest of the laws


My choice is “D”....rewrite the stupid law
Last edited by Zarniwoop on Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Brazen331 » Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:10 am

Ken Carson wrote:
Brazen331 wrote:
Do you really think your party wants a solution to this? Don’t you think they would rather have the issue in November to rile up the base?

I mean, Russian collusion is on life support and about to be deemed DOA. The plan for the Dems now must be to play identity politics and call Trump Hitler. Did the media spend one second on this issue when Obama was in charge and implementing the same damn policy?

I hope that more of my party stops giving a **** about team politics and starts governing. The majority of Americans are sick of the blame game, leaving it mainly for fodder for social media sharing bozos. I believe that if Democrats lead, we will “win the war.”

Which is why I spend the majority of my keystrokes here trying to get liberals out of the team politics game while ignoring the conservative Pom Pom holders such as yourself.


Why would they want to govern, especially on this issue? I think Democrats like the immigration laws just the way they are.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby mdb1958 » Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:25 am

bucfanclw wrote:
Brazen331 wrote:mdb is chumming the waters in the early morning hours. Just wait till the Progressives wake up.

The guy that thinks claiming 0 on taxes and then waiting until next year to get a refund is sound financial advice? You guys certainly put your best intellectual foot forward with that guy.



I think it would be safe to assume you collect one point something interest on you savings account and then pay interest on your credit cards. I have made thousands of dollars MORE in interest than I have ever paid out. Enough to retire at 54, six years ago, so carry on know it all.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby beardmcdoug » Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:34 am

listening to NPR yesterday on the way home and today on the way in...

at some point, people from Guatemala, Honduras, etc got the impression that if they make the months long trek to the US-Mexico border, that there somehow was going to be a good result for them.

at some point, each of these people have made a decision based on this belief that, whatever is to happen to them at the US-Mexico border, after all the risk of the travel and the expenses to make it there, that whatever happens, is going to be better than living the life they're currently living.

Now you make it known that if you show up at the border, your kids are going to be separated from you.

Do you think that changes the incentive to make that months long trek, spend all that money, knowing that at the end of the day, the worst possible result - your kids getting separated from you - will be a high possibility? Don't you think that would make one pause and say "hmm maybe the risk is too high - maybe I should try to improve the life I live here, instead?"

This is the whole point. People - the most desperate and the most agitated with their current living situation - who would be the agents of change to improve the area around them - are making a calculated decision to abandon their homes and throw a hail mary at crossing the border illegally into the US, instead of staying put and working with the people around them to better their lives and the lives of the people around them.


The onus should not be on the US government, whatsoever, to ensure that these people's lives remain in tact. They have CHOSEN this path, to attempt to illegal enter a sovereign nation, for themselves. They made this decision to bring their kids along. That's irresponsible parenting to try to leverage your children for your ill-gotten golden ticket into the "promised land".


Believe me, I don't hate any of these people, their suffering ****ing sucks. The suffering of every person on this planet, across all spectrum, sucks. But this is life on earth, people need to wake the **** up to the reality of this and stop trying to wedge emotions into policy.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby mdb1958 » Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:40 am

mightyleemoon wrote:It seems Trump is all about trying to make the Government as big and as expensive as possible.

If his policy persists, we're going to have hundreds of thousands of Central/South American adults in prison awaiting trials (on our dime) and hundreds of thousands of Central/South American children in our government's care (on our dime).

We're losing more than we're gaining on this retarded policy. We're literally better off letting them in and trolling Home Depot parking lots for work than we are spending millions to keep them locked up.

It would be better to instantly drive them to the border and kick them out than to spend a pile of money keeping them in prisons. And, before you say something like "But they'll just turn around and try to get back in once we kick them out." ...what do you think will happen after Trump spends half of your paycheck keeping them locked up for 5 or 10 years? We'll drive them to the border and kick them out.

We had inefficient, horrible practices at the border for decades. So, I guess the fix is to just double down on the dumb.



A pitiful post and pretending to be dumb doesnt correlate. The Dems need to quit avoiding the problem for fifty years and get with the Pubs and fix the problem.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby bucfanclw » Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:42 am

mdb1958 wrote:
bucfanclw wrote:The guy that thinks claiming 0 on taxes and then waiting until next year to get a refund is sound financial advice? You guys certainly put your best intellectual foot forward with that guy.



I think it would be safe to assume you collect one point something interest on you savings account and then pay interest on your credit cards. I have made thousands of dollars MORE in interest than I have ever paid out. Enough to retire at 54, six years ago, so carry on know it all.

Seriously... you can't make this stuff up! lol
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby mightyleemoon » Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:44 am

Zarniwoop wrote:
mightyleemoon wrote:
It looks more like you're missing his point.

But, let's talk about yours.

Would you prefer mandatory sentencing/processing for every single law? Take all the guesswork/bias out of it. Get caught with 1-5g of cocaine? 10 years. Mandatory. Get caught going 3 mph over the speed limit? 100 dollar fine. No more. No less. Mandatory. Get caught stealing something worth less than $1,000. 2 years probation and 100 community service hours. No more. No Less. Mandatory. Every time.

Okay. Let's do it.


No. And none of those laws are written as such.


The combination of laws in this case are such that if you treat illegal entry as a criminal activity (and not a civil one) it essentially forced your hand to separate kids and parents because kids can’t be detained as long as parents do. It’s very easy to rewrite the laws in this case to NOT require it


Again, we should have as few laws as possible. The ones we do have should be carefully written such that they can be executed in a reasonable way. These laws are not. As such the executive has either the choice to

a.). Make every illegal entrant a civil matter
b.). Classify every illegal entrant as a criminal matter and thus break up families
c.). Classify every illegal entrant as a criminal matter and ignore the rest of the laws


My choice is “D”....rewrite the stupid law


Speeding is a criminal matter. You can actually be arrested for going over the speed limit. Officers always have the option of arresting and detaining you if they witness you committing a crime, no matter how small. Deal is, they rarely do so for minor violations.

It appears you would like to take all judgement out of the hands of officers and into the hands of mandatory laws written by politicians.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby mightyleemoon » Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:48 am

mdb1958 wrote:A pitiful post and pretending to be dumb doesnt correlate. The Dems need to quit avoiding the problem for fifty years and get with the Pubs and fix the problem.


See, you think there is a difference between the right and the left. That's only one of the clues you're a retard.

The biggest clue, however, is your inability to construct a coherent thought. Ever. I'd be shocked if one of your posts ever read like something other than what would result from a fortune cookie raping a magic 8 ball.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby mdb1958 » Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:51 am

These people shedding tears on all this BS. Let some single mother with no family left get hooked on heroin, get incarcerated, lose her kids, then suddenly with these people its the worthless mother syndrome instead of the ease of bringing heroin over the Mexican border.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby DreadNaught » Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:54 am

beardmcdoug wrote:listening to NPR yesterday on the way home and today on the way in...

at some point, people from Guatemala, Honduras, etc got the impression that if they make the months long trek to the US-Mexico border, that there somehow was going to be a good result for them.

at some point, each of these people have made a decision based on this belief that, whatever is to happen to them at the US-Mexico border, after all the risk of the travel and the expenses to make it there, that whatever happens, is going to be better than living the life they're currently living.

Now you make it known that if you show up at the border, your kids are going to be separated from you.

Do you think that changes the incentive to make that months long trek, spend all that money, knowing that at the end of the day, the worst possible result - your kids getting separated from you - will be a high possibility? Don't you think that would make one pause and say "hmm maybe the risk is too high - maybe I should try to improve the life I live here, instead?"

This is the whole point. People - the most desperate and the most agitated with their current living situation - who would be the agents of change to improve the area around them - are making a calculated decision to abandon their homes and throw a hail mary at crossing the border illegally into the US, instead of staying put and working with the people around them to better their lives and the lives of the people around them.


The onus should not be on the US government, whatsoever, to ensure that these people's lives remain in tact. They have CHOSEN this path, to attempt to illegal enter a sovereign nation, for themselves. They made this decision to bring their kids along. That's irresponsible parenting to try to leverage your children for your ill-gotten golden ticket into the "promised land".


Believe me, I don't hate any of these people, their suffering ****ing sucks. The suffering of every person on this planet, across all spectrum, sucks. But this is life on earth, people need to wake the **** up to the reality of this and stop trying to wedge emotions into policy.


It's not just that and while I agree with the premise of your post I think it's important make the distinction that those actual real families that are making that decision to cross the border should be kept together while detained and processed. But the fact is that bringing a child along increases their chances at a more favorable result for themselves. Under our laws we already allow the children to stay in most cases while the parents get to cut the line via expedited hearings. But we are also ignoring the statistics that there is huge increase year over year that some of these 'families' are not related at all. That was a one of the reasons the legislation was passed to allow for 'family separation'.

So what are we to do when a family is caught crossing the border illegally? The current laws don't allow us to just turn them around, and we can't separate kids from parents (even if relation can't be proven).

Shame on Chuck Shumer for not being willing to work on a legislation to fix this. He's playing politics b/c the current policy loopholes give Dems what they want in terms of immigration while painting Trump as the monster for not fixing it via Executive Order. EO's are temporary, and if this family separation issue was as serious the hysteria indicates than it has to be fixed via legislation by Congress. Do your ****ing job already.
Last edited by DreadNaught on Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby mdb1958 » Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:55 am

mightyleemoon wrote:
mdb1958 wrote:A pitiful post and pretending to be dumb doesnt correlate. The Dems need to quit avoiding the problem for fifty years and get with the Pubs and fix the problem.


See, you think there is a difference between the right and the left. That's only one of the clues you're a retard.

The biggest clue, however, is your inability to construct a coherent thought. Ever. I'd be shocked if one of your posts ever read like something other than what would result from a fortune cookie raping a magic 8 ball.


So being smart and living your life as a dumbass is excusable?
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby uscbucsfan » Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:56 am

mightyleemoon wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:
No. And none of those laws are written as such.


The combination of laws in this case are such that if you treat illegal entry as a criminal activity (and not a civil one) it essentially forced your hand to separate kids and parents because kids can’t be detained as long as parents do. It’s very easy to rewrite the laws in this case to NOT require it


Again, we should have as few laws as possible. The ones we do have should be carefully written such that they can be executed in a reasonable way. These laws are not. As such the executive has either the choice to

a.). Make every illegal entrant a civil matter
b.). Classify every illegal entrant as a criminal matter and thus break up families
c.). Classify every illegal entrant as a criminal matter and ignore the rest of the laws


My choice is “D”....rewrite the stupid law


Speeding is a criminal matter. You can actually be arrested for going over the speed limit. Officers always have the option of arresting and detaining you if they witness you committing a crime, no matter how small. Deal is, they rarely do so for minor violations.

It appears you would like to take all judgement out of the hands of officers and into the hands of mandatory laws written by politicians.


That's not a complete stretch. Comparing speeding to illegally entering the country is as ridiculous as the conservatives using murder as a comparison. Not all laws have the same punishment, approach, guidance from all levels from LEOs to the court and you know that.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby beardmcdoug » Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:57 am

DreadNaught wrote:
beardmcdoug wrote:listening to NPR yesterday on the way home and today on the way in...

at some point, people from Guatemala, Honduras, etc got the impression that if they make the months long trek to the US-Mexico border, that there somehow was going to be a good result for them.

at some point, each of these people have made a decision based on this belief that, whatever is to happen to them at the US-Mexico border, after all the risk of the travel and the expenses to make it there, that whatever happens, is going to be better than living the life they're currently living.

Now you make it known that if you show up at the border, your kids are going to be separated from you.

Do you think that changes the incentive to make that months long trek, spend all that money, knowing that at the end of the day, the worst possible result - your kids getting separated from you - will be a high possibility? Don't you think that would make one pause and say "hmm maybe the risk is too high - maybe I should try to improve the life I live here, instead?"

This is the whole point. People - the most desperate and the most agitated with their current living situation - who would be the agents of change to improve the area around them - are making a calculated decision to abandon their homes and throw a hail mary at crossing the border illegally into the US, instead of staying put and working with the people around them to better their lives and the lives of the people around them.


The onus should not be on the US government, whatsoever, to ensure that these people's lives remain in tact. They have CHOSEN this path, to attempt to illegal enter a sovereign nation, for themselves. They made this decision to bring their kids along. That's irresponsible parenting to try to leverage your children for your ill-gotten golden ticket into the "promised land".


Believe me, I don't hate any of these people, their suffering ****ing sucks. The suffering of every person on this planet, across all spectrum, sucks. But this is life on earth, people need to wake the **** up to the reality of this and stop trying to wedge emotions into policy.


It's not just that and while I agree with the premise of your post I think it's important make the distinction that those actual real families that are making that decision to cross the border should be kept together while detained and processed. But the fact is that bringing a child along increases their chances at a more favorable result for themselves. Under our laws are already allow the children to stay in most cases while the parents get to cut the line via expedited hearings. But we are also ignoring the statistics that there is huge increase year over year that some of these 'families' are not related at all. That was a one of the reasons the legislation was passed to allow for 'family separation'.

So what are we to do when a family is caught crossing the border illegally? The current laws don't allow us to just turn them around, and we can't separate kids from parents (even if relation can't be proven).

Shame on Chuck Shumer for not being willing to work on a legislation to fix this. He's playing politics b/c the current policy loopholes give Dems what they want in terms of immigration while painting Trump as the monster for not fixing it via Executive Order. EO's are temporary, and if this family separation issue was as serious the hysteria indicates than it has to be fixed via legislation by Congress. Do your ****ing job already.



Interesting, I guess I still was giving too much benefit of the doubt about the motivations of those people. I'll wait til I see the statistics (feel free to post them) before I completely switch my thinking on that though
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