Random Mass Shooting Thread

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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby Ken Carson » Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:41 am

Well, feel free to talk about the arming of school personnel in Florida, because it is in the bill the governor signed. As is the banning of bump stocks, a 3 day waiting period or completion of a background check whichever is longer (meaning both), and no gun sales to anyone below the age of 21.

As someone who thinks we need common sense gun laws, all these (save the arming of teachers) make sense to me. The armed teacher thing seems like it was thrown in to get it passed, but I don’t hate it since Florida is giving the decision to school districts to implement, not individual schools or teachers. I cannot envision a superintendent giving the green light on that and opening up massive liability should a serious accident occur. My guess is that it has a 0% adoption rate.
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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby The Outsider » Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:50 am

Ken Carson wrote:Can we get beyond the ‘every time a fun fires we make a political point?’ Jesus.

There are legitimate ****ing issues that actually could be addressed. Rick Scott signed a ****ing gun bill into law 2 days ago and we have not had a single ****ing post about it.

It’s so tiresome to see your cheerleaders and your poms poms have protest and counter protest pep rallies about nonissues and deflections and then completely ignore the actual push for legislation and common sense gun laws.



Pull your panties out of your snatch. There's been plenty of real discussion on gun control in this thread, don't **** on other people's fun just because you missed it. Also, there's a Florida Politics thread that had some discussion on this bill specifically.

And just to soothe your obviously rustled Jimmies...

The bill overall is good. I have no issues with treating rifles like pistols. Honestly make all guns a 21 to purchase item. Treat them all the same.

Arming teachers is stupid. You want more security, put more uniformed resource officers in the schools.
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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby DreadNaught » Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:58 am

Ken Carson wrote:Well, feel free to talk about the arming of school personnel in Florida, because it is in the bill the governor signed. As is the banning of bump stocks, a 3 day waiting period or completion of a background check whichever is longer (meaning both), and no gun sales to anyone below the age of 21.

As someone who thinks we need common sense gun laws, all these (save the arming of teachers) make sense to me. The armed teacher thing seems like it was thrown in to get it passed, but I don’t hate it since Florida is giving the decision to school districts to implement, not individual schools or teachers. I cannot envision a superintendent giving the green light on that and opening up massive liability should a serious accident occur. My guess is that it has a 0% adoption rate.


Some districts it would make sense and others it wouldn't as the culture when it comes to firearms varies from area to area. But still the idea that there MAY be teachers with concealed firearms (even if their aren't) is still better than a "gun free zone". That is how deterrence works and we all agree deterrence is positive thing as it applies to school shootings considering the data that 98% of the shooting occur in these publicized 'gun free areas'.

I think that term needs to be eliminated altogether. If you want to ban the general public from lawfully carrying in those areas that is one things but let's make it known there are armed personnel ON-SITE at all times in some capacity.
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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby Zarniwoop » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:28 am

(Apart from a couple petulant outbursts) We did have a real discussion on this. And we did find common ground. NYBF is just NYBF’in. I was actually quite proud of our discussion compared to the **** you see on TV and social media


The general consensus was to have more security at school (both personnel and designing schools) we also came together on bump stocks,we also agreed on a serious look into mental health and criticizing the role of law enforcement for not acting sooner on warnings.


Not everyone agree teachers should be armed, just like not everyone agrees on outlawing AR15 type rifles. That is where we are as a country, we are no different on this board. If this was an easy problem to solve it would be solved. It’s not, to think there is a magic pill is silly



If NYBF wants to do his thing let him. Maybe he can inspire copycats who link stories of people disobeying gun free signs and the board will be super duper awesome
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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby Buc2 » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:30 am

The Outsider wrote:Arming teachers is stupid. You want more security, put more uniformed resource officers in the schools.

Agreed.
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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby beardmcdoug » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:51 am

Buc2 wrote:
The Outsider wrote:Arming teachers is stupid. You want more security, put more uniformed resource officers in the schools.

Agreed.


you know what, no, **** that. that's a trap. that's some 1984 **** - us "asking" for more "protection". we don't need heavily guarded "education centers". the school shooting thing is a societal thing - nothing else will "solve" it, other than society healing itself from inside-out.

were school shootings happening here?
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only 100 years ago.... we might as well be a completely different species now
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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby Zarniwoop » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:53 am

beardmcdoug wrote:the school shooting thing is a societal thing - nothing else will "solve" it, other than society healing itself from inside-out.




I couldn't agree more. It is American culture -- we simply don't respect life like we used to and we don't have a sense of community like we used to. While other countries don't quite have our gun ownership rate many have very high rates in general...and shootings don't happen there. Gun ownership among the Nordics is very high. Their schools don't get shot up.

That being said, I don't see any reason we can't make the targets harder while we work on the cultural thing
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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby Deuce » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:59 am

Zarniwoop wrote:
beardmcdoug wrote:the school shooting thing is a societal thing - nothing else will "solve" it, other than society healing itself from inside-out.




I couldn't agree more. It is American culture -- we simply don't respect life like we used to and we don't have a sense of community like we used to. While other countries don't quite have our gun ownership rate many have very high rates in general...and shootings don't happen there. Gun ownership among the Nordics is very high. Their schools don't get shot up.

That being said, I don't see any reason we can't make the targets harder while we work on the cultural thing


One of the smartest people I'm aware of, Dennis Prager, said something like "the only way to solve school shootings is to teach children growing up in America that murder is wrong."

Very profound but I'm not sure about the implementation.
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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby Zarniwoop » Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:01 am

Deuce wrote:
One of the smartest people I'm aware of, Dennis Prager, said something like "the only way to solve school shootings is to teach children growing up in America that murder is wrong."

Very profound but I'm not sure about the implementation.




It is hard being a parent today. Kids see soooooooo much hate and animosity. So little "live and let live" and so little common respect and decency.
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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby beardmcdoug » Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:09 am

this is where nationalism comes into play. the big word everybody hates these days.

unfocused and individualistic capitalism is just as bad as unfocused and collectivist communism.

we need a focus. a focus that is constantly reinforced and fundamental to growing up in this US society. focus based on sweat and brotherhood, and bettering yourself, and of raising standards, and shaming the degenerate. and then a mix of capitalism that supports growth, and socialism that helps steer industries in ways that are beneficial for the nation and society's, and helps us advert long term environmental/financial/geopolitical crises - all with a heavy dose of nationalism to invigorate the populace with a common goal. THAT's how you stop school shootings. we're a strewn out nihlistic, individualistic, paranoid mess right now - and these shootings are an obvious manifestation of a toxic, rudderless society
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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby Zarniwoop » Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:15 am

I’m not sure I entirely agree with that. I definitely get the national identity part of nationalism as it is one of many ways for people to see they serve a bigger picture than nihilism suggests. But I think the biggest contributors that helped keep people grounded and to feel sympathy for folks around them (instead of the anger and disdain that is so often common now) are more local — family, church, community.

Sadly none of those three are in fashion right now
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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby Buc2 » Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:53 am

beardmcdoug wrote:
Buc2 wrote:Agreed.


you know what, no, **** that. that's a trap. that's some 1984 **** - us "asking" for more "protection". we don't need heavily guarded "education centers". the school shooting thing is a societal thing - nothing else will "solve" it, other than society healing itself from inside-out.

were school shootings happening here?
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only 100 years ago.... we might as well be a completely different species now

Look. You want to know what I really think schools should do? Lock their ****ing doors. That's what. Put up metal detectors that everyone must pass through before entering the building. There's no need to arm anyone. Period. The end.
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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby Selmon Rules » Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:24 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Buc2 wrote:I'd say the death penalty has never been a deterrent throughout history. It's a punishment. A final punishment to be sure. No more. No less.

It's vengance. "You have wronged our society so heinously that you must die."

I'm not making an argument to abolish the death penalty, I just think if we call it what it is, we'll use it more sparingly.

The only thing that the death penalty does is ensure that person never does that again....
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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby terrytate » Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:56 am

Selmon Rules wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:It's vengance. "You have wronged our society so heinously that you must die."

I'm not making an argument to abolish the death penalty, I just think if we call it what it is, we'll use it more sparingly.

The only thing that the death penalty does is ensure that person never does that again....


The death penalty does work as a deterrent to a degree, but in most cases you are right. It's not even a punishment, it's simply excising a cancer.
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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby PrimeMinister » Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:27 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:
beardmcdoug wrote:the school shooting thing is a societal thing - nothing else will "solve" it, other than society healing itself from inside-out.




I couldn't agree more. It is American culture -- we simply don't respect life like we used to and we don't have a sense of community like we used to. While other countries don't quite have our gun ownership rate many have very high rates in general...and shootings don't happen there. Gun ownership among the Nordics is very high. Their schools don't get shot up.

That being said, I don't see any reason we can't make the targets harder while we work on the cultural thing


This reads like a generous re-imagining of American history. It is very difficult to believe that "we don't respect life like we used to" 100 years ago when ethnic minorities in this country were routinely systematically murdered (often with the blessing of the legal authorities). America has always been a nation that valued certain lives and not others. This truth is how the near extinction of Native Americans is portrayed as Hero (Cowboy) vs Savages (Indians) and a game that little American boys used to grow up playing. Actual American history shows lives are valuable unless there are profits to be made by devaluing that same life.

I fail to see how school shootings are a deviation from our history. Swap out school shootings for genocide or lynchings and you have America from 100 or 200 or 300 years ago. This isn't a "I hate America" post. It's a "Let's stop lying about what we value" post.
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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby PrimeMinister » Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:43 pm

beardmcdoug wrote:this is where nationalism comes into play. the big word everybody hates these days.

unfocused and individualistic capitalism is just as bad as unfocused and collectivist communism.

we need a focus. a focus that is constantly reinforced and fundamental to growing up in this US society. focus based on sweat and brotherhood, and bettering yourself, and of raising standards, and shaming the degenerate. and then a mix of capitalism that supports growth, and socialism that helps steer industries in ways that are beneficial for the nation and society's, and helps us advert long term environmental/financial/geopolitical crises - all with a heavy dose of nationalism to invigorate the populace with a common goal. THAT's how you stop school shootings. we're a strewn out nihlistic, individualistic, paranoid mess right now - and these shootings are an obvious manifestation of a toxic, rudderless society


Regarding Nationalism I am just going to quote part of a post I made to you earlier in this thread. I would like to hear your thoughts when you have the time.


2. We are in full disagreement here. Nationalism should be abandoned and patriotism pursued. If one loves their nation they should criticize her where she fails and cheer her where she excels. Since we are on a football message board let's look at it this way. The nationalist/homer is unable to view this season as the combined fault of Winston, Koetter, Mike Smith, McCoy, Light etc. The homer also cannot stand to participate in or hear critique of his beloved team even when it is deserved. The Patriot is the fan who views his team realistically. Maybe this offseason he held high hopes, but now he sees that the team has failed and changes are needed. We can debate the changes, but to prevent critique of the team failures is harmful to the team itself. The Patriot loves his country while the Nationalist worships it.

5. This once again is an American reality. I agree with you here, but where you see a decline I see a natural continuance. Both the Puritan morals and the Christian morals of the first half of the 20th century bent to defend the degeneracy that was chattel slavery. Why would this time be any different? America's morals and theology have never matched her actions. Often the two seem to be on different continents.
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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby DreadNaught » Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:30 pm

PrimeMinister wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:

I couldn't agree more. It is American culture -- we simply don't respect life like we used to and we don't have a sense of community like we used to. While other countries don't quite have our gun ownership rate many have very high rates in general...and shootings don't happen there. Gun ownership among the Nordics is very high. Their schools don't get shot up.

That being said, I don't see any reason we can't make the targets harder while we work on the cultural thing


This reads like a generous re-imagining of American history. It is very difficult to believe that "we don't respect life like we used to" 100 years ago when ethnic minorities in this country were routinely systematically murdered (often with the blessing of the legal authorities). America has always been a nation that valued certain lives and not others. This truth is how the near extinction of Native Americans is portrayed as Hero (Cowboy) vs Savages (Indians) and a game that little American boys used to grow up playing. Actual American history shows lives are valuable unless there are profits to be made by devaluing that same life.

I fail to see how school shootings are a deviation from our history. Swap out school shootings for genocide or lynchings and you have America from 100 or 200 or 300 years ago. This isn't a "I hate America" post. It's a "Let's stop lying about what we value" post.


Interesting connections you're making there. Not sure mass shootings, which started about 20 yrs ago and racially motivated atrocities from the 60's and before have many parallels.
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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby PrimeMinister » Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:34 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
PrimeMinister wrote:
This reads like a generous re-imagining of American history. It is very difficult to believe that "we don't respect life like we used to" 100 years ago when ethnic minorities in this country were routinely systematically murdered (often with the blessing of the legal authorities). America has always been a nation that valued certain lives and not others. This truth is how the near extinction of Native Americans is portrayed as Hero (Cowboy) vs Savages (Indians) and a game that little American boys used to grow up playing. Actual American history shows lives are valuable unless there are profits to be made by devaluing that same life.

I fail to see how school shootings are a deviation from our history. Swap out school shootings for genocide or lynchings and you have America from 100 or 200 or 300 years ago. This isn't a "I hate America" post. It's a "Let's stop lying about what we value" post.


Interesting connections you're making there. Not sure mass shootings, which started about 20 yrs ago and racially motivated atrocities from the 60's and before have many parallels.


I’m making correlations between “American value of life” today vs the last 300 years. Zarni and BMD both posited that Americans no longer value life like we used to. I’m saying Americans have never valued all life that much.
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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby Zarniwoop » Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:44 pm

I think this is a very fair criticism and something I will have to think upon. Very good counterpoint
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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby The Outsider » Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:59 pm

PrimeMinister wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
Interesting connections you're making there. Not sure mass shootings, which started about 20 yrs ago and racially motivated atrocities from the 60's and before have many parallels.


I’m making correlations between “American value of life” today vs the last 300 years. Zarni and BMD both posited that Americans no longer value life like we used to. I’m saying Americans have never valued all life that much.



You can extrapolate that to humanity as a whole to be perfectly honest.
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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby Buc2 » Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:56 am

The Outsider wrote:
PrimeMinister wrote:
I’m making correlations between “American value of life” today vs the last 300 years. Zarni and BMD both posited that Americans no longer value life like we used to. I’m saying Americans have never valued all life that much.



You can extrapolate that to humanity as a whole to be perfectly honest.

Beat me to it.
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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby PanteraCanes » Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:02 am

The Outsider wrote:
PrimeMinister wrote:
I’m making correlations between “American value of life” today vs the last 300 years. Zarni and BMD both posited that Americans no longer value life like we used to. I’m saying Americans have never valued all life that much.



You can extrapolate that to humanity as a whole to be perfectly honest.


To all living organisms as a whole.
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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby beardmcdoug » Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:52 am

PrimeMinister wrote:
beardmcdoug wrote:this is where nationalism comes into play. the big word everybody hates these days.

unfocused and individualistic capitalism is just as bad as unfocused and collectivist communism.

we need a focus. a focus that is constantly reinforced and fundamental to growing up in this US society. focus based on sweat and brotherhood, and bettering yourself, and of raising standards, and shaming the degenerate. and then a mix of capitalism that supports growth, and socialism that helps steer industries in ways that are beneficial for the nation and society's, and helps us advert long term environmental/financial/geopolitical crises - all with a heavy dose of nationalism to invigorate the populace with a common goal. THAT's how you stop school shootings. we're a strewn out nihlistic, individualistic, paranoid mess right now - and these shootings are an obvious manifestation of a toxic, rudderless society


Regarding Nationalism I am just going to quote part of a post I made to you earlier in this thread. I would like to hear your thoughts when you have the time.


2. We are in full disagreement here. Nationalism should be abandoned and patriotism pursued. If one loves their nation they should criticize her where she fails and cheer her where she excels. Since we are on a football message board let's look at it this way. The nationalist/homer is unable to view this season as the combined fault of Winston, Koetter, Mike Smith, McCoy, Light etc. The homer also cannot stand to participate in or hear critique of his beloved team even when it is deserved. The Patriot is the fan who views his team realistically. Maybe this offseason he held high hopes, but now he sees that the team has failed and changes are needed. We can debate the changes, but to prevent critique of the team failures is harmful to the team itself. The Patriot loves his country while the Nationalist worships it.

5. This once again is an American reality. I agree with you here, but where you see a decline I see a natural continuance. Both the Puritan morals and the Christian morals of the first half of the 20th century bent to defend the degeneracy that was chattel slavery. Why would this time be any different? America's morals and theology have never matched her actions. Often the two seem to be on different continents.


I get what you're trying to say about nationalism vs patriotism, but I think it's going to be a relative waste of time splitting these hairs over a message board, the definitions are nuanced and where the line is drawn between the two is entirely up to one's own interpretation. you may want to color your view of the definition of nationalism with a coat of extreme fervor or blind following, just as much as I would want to color "patriotism" as the false sense of temporary "go team" post 9/11 fat guy in his american flag button up riding a rascal with an american flag eating a cheeseburger - who doesn't have any actual attachment to his country besides basic-level group-think and false superiority.

Let's get this out of the way:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/patriotism-vs-nationalism
Merriam Webster draws the line here:

There are still obvious areas of overlap: we define patriotism as “love for or devotion to one’s country” and nationalism in part as “loyalty and devotion to a nation.” But the definition of nationalism also includes “exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups.” This exclusionary aspect is not shared by patriotism.


which is exactly what I am advocating, and what I believe is the only results-yielding way out of this quagmire. Through healthy competition. By saying "we are better than other cultures" and striving to prove that every day. Patriotism is a fleeting ideal. An ideal that dissipates when the other political party wins. Ideals - true ideals - ideals that can shape civilizations do not just *appear*, they are not formed in 1 day by 1 man. They do not just implant into your head. They are formed, and cultivated, and diffuse slowly through the populace, and it is requires constant upkeep to maintain the ones worth pursuing - otherwise, ideals revolving around pursuits of pleasure or comfort easily move in. This is why the distinction of nationalism over patriotism is important. Because nationalism has more momentum and staying power - it is built on a historical foundation - it is built on competition and achievement - and reverence for what is good in your culture.

And if a nationalist culture based on degeneracy or corruption or injustice, then it deserves to be met by the better culture of another nation and be destroyed - history will tell, just like it always has for countless civilizations that have come and gone. And fortunately, we are the most well-equipped we've ever been, in human history, to eliminate ignorance of subject matters (due to the exponential advances in science and technology over the past 200 years) as the reason for degeneracy; we are fully equipped to shape our culture, our identity, and our future based on a logical, measured approach, instead of just slogging from one year to the next, stumbling into biological pitfalls, and normalizing degeneracy in our society by excusing extreme behavior as socially "progressive"

your definition of a nationalist is somebody who is so blinded by love of their nation that they are unable to critique it's faults, but in my opinion, that couldn't be further from the truth, since because nationalism is fundamentally built on the concept of you viewing your culture or nation as superior to others'. How did your nation/culture get to that point where the feeling of superiority was even justifiable? By eliminating the bad and promoting the good. By being highly critical of what plagues your society and excising the cancerous aspects. Even one of the first uses of the word alludes to this:

Merriam Webster tries to find the earliest use of "nationalism" and quotes the following:
"Nationalism must involve the consecrated devotion of a responsive citizenship, sound policies must have universal faith and unsound vagaries must have universal condemnation."
—The Marion County News (Hamilton, AL), 1 Jan. 1820



I think nationalism, and the view that one's nation or (aspired) culture is better than others is a good thing. It promotes a healthy sense of identity, competition, and focus. I don't hate Pakistani nationalists for being Pakistani nationalists - good for them! I don't agree with their standard of living and don't subscribe to their dominant religious/cultural attitudes, but I certainly don't blame them for thinking they're the best, just like Japanese nationalists or Polish nationalists. As long as they don't try to wipe us off the face of the map, then who cares if they think they're better than us? If they DO try to wipe us off the map, then they're an aggressor and our superior nation should eliminate them. But there's no reason we can't co-habitate this planet side by side, them with their culture, and us with ours.


re: 5), aren't you sick of fake ass puritans then?
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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby DreadNaught » Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:05 am

Great post BMD!
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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby beardmcdoug » Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:15 am

PrimeMinister wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
Interesting connections you're making there. Not sure mass shootings, which started about 20 yrs ago and racially motivated atrocities from the 60's and before have many parallels.


I’m making correlations between “American value of life” today vs the last 300 years. Zarni and BMD both posited that Americans no longer value life like we used to. I’m saying Americans have never valued all life that much.


It's relative. Americans didn't value Native American lives because white Europeans were explorers, and whether they meant to be or not, they were also invaders, invading an unknown and foreign land, with the expressed purpose of claiming that land, its resources, and spreading their (superior) civilization/culture. I didn't decide it was superior, evolution and history did. Civilization growth is an extension of biological evolution - it is survival of the fittest, but with ideals instead of genes - and ideals are constantly in flux at any given time, in any given resource/political/social paradigm. The europeans didn't "value" native american life because they were completely different than them and the europeans didn't have the luxury of the 30,000 ft view of that time period - europeans were dying, struggling, and unsure of their future - their existence and proliferation was, by no means, guaranteed - and so their actions are reflective of that time period, and of that situation - they, by no means, serve to support the concept of a universal, consistent, american-flavored value-level of human life. you're forgetting the ugly realities that humans have trudged through to get through this point in history.

I'm not interested in defending slavery, as I think it is morally reprehensible, and should have never happened, and americans were right to evolve out of accepting that
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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:46 am

and normalizing degeneracy in our society by excusing extreme behavior as socially "progressive"


Could you please expound on this? It may be open to misinterpretation.
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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby beardmcdoug » Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:55 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
and normalizing degeneracy in our society by excusing extreme behavior as socially "progressive"


Could you please expound on this? It may be open to misinterpretation.


I've said it a bunch of times on here already - it's pretty broad. why, what are you worried I'm saying?
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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby Buc2 » Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:56 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
and normalizing degeneracy in our society by excusing extreme behavior as socially "progressive"


Could you please expound on this? It may be open to misinterpretation.

My interpretation in pictures...
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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby DreadNaught » Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:03 pm

YO!! Check out the Beattlejuice pants on the guy on the left of the sign. Those are Awesome!!!

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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby Zarniwoop » Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:08 pm

DreadNaught wrote:YO!! Check out the Beattlejuice pants on the guy on the left of the sign. Those are Awesome!!!

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LOL, I now support the idiots in ANTIFA
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