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Re: Starbucks

Postby Caradoc » Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:59 pm

Deuce wrote:
Ken Carson wrote:I agree. The business made the mistake of selectively enforcing the closing hours, which caused this issue. It never happens if no one is served after 9pm.


Yeah. I guess we'll all be happier when we're 10 seconds late somewhere and they lock the doors in our face from now on. What a utopia we're building.



Apparently Kenny lives in a perfect world rather than the really real one where people never walk into an establishment just at/after closing but before employees close the doors and there is a choice made between confrontation and accommodation. It makes it easy to pronounce judgement on everyone when everything works perfectly in your imaginary world, all black and white, no grey.
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Re: Starbucks

Postby PrimeMinister » Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:18 pm

It looks like multiple people are trying to misunderstand Ken’s simple point.
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Re: Starbucks

Postby Caradoc » Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:51 am

PrimeMinister wrote:It looks like multiple people are trying to misunderstand Ken’s simple point.


No, Kenny is just making a ridiculous point. People made a subjective decision that is made thousands of times a day in the really real world. Kenny seems to think decisions are only made in a perfect world under perfect circumstances. Even Zarni is oversimplifying by saying "if they just stuck to a hard and fast rule". The rule may be there, but being able to enforce it 100% accurately are two different things. Not to mention human nature and the vague nature of human interaction.
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Re: Starbucks

Postby Ken Carson » Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:29 am

Caradoc wrote:
PrimeMinister wrote:It looks like multiple people are trying to misunderstand Ken’s simple point.


No, Kenny is just making a ridiculous point. People made a subjective decision that is made thousands of times a day in the really real world. Kenny seems to think decisions are only made in a perfect world under perfect circumstances. Even Zarni is oversimplifying by saying "if they just stuck to a hard and fast rule". The rule may be there, but being able to enforce it 100% accurately are two different things. Not to mention human nature and the vague nature of human interaction.


You're missing the last part.

I'm saying that the problem occurred BECAUSE they did that. I'm not saying what any business should or should not do. But when you bend a policy for someone and not for someone else you risk being publicly crushed in today's woke world. That's reality, not a perfect world.

Where we differ is that you want to be able to say that the person who got offended was "wrong." I don't think so much of myself that I can tell anyone how they should think or feel about something like that. They've lived their whole life as them. You have no idea if she, as a black woman, has received shitty service her whole life. Many minorities I have spoken to say that they often get very poor service at restaurants and bars, so it's not unreasonable at all to think that she has had those experiences. And now as a a black woman who has "made it" to a position of authority with a platform... maybe she said, "Enough is enough" and the restaurant received the brunt of experiences that have been mounting for decades. Maybe it's not about something trivial like 3 minutes for her. Maybe it's a lifetime achievement award for being treated differently due to her being black.

But it's SO easy for you to brush this off, because when you receive poor service, you think, "This place sucks" and leave a small tip. When a minority receives poor service, again, for the hundredth time, they probably aren't thinking, "This place sucks" more than "I'm black and this is what I expect."

"You never really understand a person until you consider things from his point of view … until you climb into his skin and walk around in it.” - Atticus Finch
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Re: Starbucks

Postby Deuce » Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:48 am

Ken Carson wrote:
Caradoc wrote:
No, Kenny is just making a ridiculous point. People made a subjective decision that is made thousands of times a day in the really real world. Kenny seems to think decisions are only made in a perfect world under perfect circumstances. Even Zarni is oversimplifying by saying "if they just stuck to a hard and fast rule". The rule may be there, but being able to enforce it 100% accurately are two different things. Not to mention human nature and the vague nature of human interaction.


You're missing the last part.

I'm saying that the problem occurred BECAUSE they did that. I'm not saying what any business should or should not do. But when you bend a policy for someone and not for someone else you risk being publicly crushed in today's woke world. That's reality, not a perfect world.

Where we differ is that you want to be able to say that the person who got offended was "wrong." I don't think so much of myself that I can tell anyone how they should think or feel about something like that. They've lived their whole life as them. You have no idea if she, as a black woman, has received shitty service her whole life. Many minorities I have spoken to say that they often get very poor service at restaurants and bars, so it's not unreasonable at all to think that she has had those experiences. And now as a a black woman who has "made it" to a position of authority with a platform... maybe she said, "Enough is enough" and the restaurant received the brunt of experiences that have been mounting for decades. Maybe it's not about something trivial like 3 minutes for her. Maybe it's a lifetime achievement award for being treated differently due to her being black.

But it's SO easy for you to brush this off, because when you receive poor service, you think, "This place sucks" and leave a small tip. When a minority receives poor service, again, for the hundredth time, they probably aren't thinking, "This place sucks" more than "I'm black and this is what I expect."

"You never really understand a person until you consider things from his point of view … until you climb into his skin and walk around in it.” - Atticus Finch


The thing I didn't like about your point was just calling what the employees did a "mistake". I don't think it was a mistake at all.

But good point on the minorities. Imagine every business who's given you poor service, jobs you interviewed for and didn't get, bad neighbors, cops who were nasty, kids who were rude, random a-holes, etc. Now imagine 87% of them are a different race than you. Even if nothing was up, you'd suspect something.
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Re: Starbucks

Postby Zarniwoop » Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:02 am

Caradoc wrote:
PrimeMinister wrote:It looks like multiple people are trying to misunderstand Ken’s simple point.


No, Kenny is just making a ridiculous point. People made a subjective decision that is made thousands of times a day in the really real world. Kenny seems to think decisions are only made in a perfect world under perfect circumstances. Even Zarni is oversimplifying by saying "if they just stuck to a hard and fast rule". The rule may be there, but being able to enforce it 100% accurately are two different things. Not to mention human nature and the vague nature of human interaction.



you may have misunderstood my post, or perhaps, i was unclear...i do NOT think store owners should ADOPT hard and fast rules about closing times or exceptions...I said if they do they are likely to shield themselves from liability better. i even went on to say if i was a store owner i would pick and choose based on context when i served a customer who arrived late.
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Re: Starbucks

Postby PrimeMinister » Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:04 am

Great post, Ken. One of the most frustrating thing as an racial minority in this country is having to prove the existence of racial discrimination and mistreatment every single time. I largely stopped doing that a couple of years ago.
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Re: Starbucks

Postby PrimeMinister » Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:04 am

Zarniwoop wrote:
Caradoc wrote:
No, Kenny is just making a ridiculous point. People made a subjective decision that is made thousands of times a day in the really real world. Kenny seems to think decisions are only made in a perfect world under perfect circumstances. Even Zarni is oversimplifying by saying "if they just stuck to a hard and fast rule". The rule may be there, but being able to enforce it 100% accurately are two different things. Not to mention human nature and the vague nature of human interaction.



you may have misunderstood my post, or perhaps, i was unclear...i do NOT think store owners should ADOPT hard and fast rules about closing times or exceptions...I said if they do they are likely to shield themselves from liability better. i even went on to say if i was a store owner i would pick and choose based on context when i served a customer who arrived late.


Both Zarni and Ken made great points.

Edit: ADHD is kicking my ass lately lol. Typos and missed words everywhere.
Last edited by PrimeMinister on Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Starbucks

Postby deltbucs » Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:06 pm

PrimeMinister wrote:It looks like multiple people are trying to misunderstand Ken’s simple point.

.....
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Re: Starbucks

Postby Buc2 » Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:11 pm

PrimeMinister wrote:Great post, Ken. One of the most frustrating thing as an racial minority in this country is having to prove the existence of racial discrimination and mistreatment every single time. I largely stopped doing that a couple of years ago.

And one of the most frustrating things as a racial majority in this country is having to prove that anything said or done when a minority is involved was not racially motivated.
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Re: Starbucks

Postby Ken Carson » Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:15 pm

Deuce wrote:
Ken Carson wrote:
You're missing the last part.

I'm saying that the problem occurred BECAUSE they did that. I'm not saying what any business should or should not do. But when you bend a policy for someone and not for someone else you risk being publicly crushed in today's woke world. That's reality, not a perfect world.

Where we differ is that you want to be able to say that the person who got offended was "wrong." I don't think so much of myself that I can tell anyone how they should think or feel about something like that. They've lived their whole life as them. You have no idea if she, as a black woman, has received shitty service her whole life. Many minorities I have spoken to say that they often get very poor service at restaurants and bars, so it's not unreasonable at all to think that she has had those experiences. And now as a a black woman who has "made it" to a position of authority with a platform... maybe she said, "Enough is enough" and the restaurant received the brunt of experiences that have been mounting for decades. Maybe it's not about something trivial like 3 minutes for her. Maybe it's a lifetime achievement award for being treated differently due to her being black.

But it's SO easy for you to brush this off, because when you receive poor service, you think, "This place sucks" and leave a small tip. When a minority receives poor service, again, for the hundredth time, they probably aren't thinking, "This place sucks" more than "I'm black and this is what I expect."



The thing I didn't like about your point was just calling what the employees did a "mistake". I don't think it was a mistake at all.

But good point on the minorities. Imagine every business who's given you poor service, jobs you interviewed for and didn't get, bad neighbors, cops who were nasty, kids who were rude, random a-holes, etc. Now imagine 87% of them are a different race than you. Even if nothing was up, you'd suspect something.

I’ll amend my use of the word mistake then. I’m not here to assign blame to anyone for wrongdoing. I think the employees had good intentions, but the double standard was an impetus for the social media explosion. Not the only impetus, but certainly one that if avoided in any way probably would have not led to a public fracas.

That said, glad to see we have an understanding on the underlying issue.
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Re: Starbucks

Postby Zarniwoop » Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:18 pm

Buc2 wrote:And one of the most frustrating things as a racial majority in this country is having to prove that anything said or done when a minority is involved was not racially motivated.




In many areas...emotions seem to trump facts in today's society. and because of that we this get ridiculous notion of competing truths
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Re: Starbucks

Postby Stuart » Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:12 pm

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Re: Starbucks

Postby Ken Carson » Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:18 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:
Buc2 wrote:And one of the most frustrating things as a racial majority in this country is having to prove that anything said or done when a minority is involved was not racially motivated.



In many areas...emotions seem to trump facts in today's society. and because of that we this get ridiculous notion of competing truths

Didn’t see Buc2 post this initially, but damn...

Imagine being the racial minority who has to prove something WAS racially motivated to a bunch of people who have never been a minority for a day in their lives. You suffer the humiliation AND you get to get questioned. What a lose-lose...
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Re: Starbucks

Postby Stuart » Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:42 pm

everyone has been a minority at some point

not JUST minorities experience racism

no one HAS to prove anything

If you go looking for it, you'll always find it....
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Re: Starbucks

Postby PrimeMinister » Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:04 pm

Ken Carson wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:

In many areas...emotions seem to trump facts in today's society. and because of that we this get ridiculous notion of competing truths

Didn’t see Buc2 post this initially, but damn...

Imagine being the racial minority who has to prove something WAS racially motivated to a bunch of people who have never been a minority for a day in their lives. You suffer the humiliation AND you get to get questioned. What a lose-lose...


I get what Buc2 is saying, but yes THIS x100000. I don’t have the energy for those conversations anymore for the same reason you stated here. Sometimes the conversations are more dehumanizing than anything else. Anyway good post.
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