Vegan: The great debate.

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Re: Vegan: The great debate.

Postby Deuce » Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:36 pm

real bucs fan wrote:
Deuce wrote:
I don't know if "environmental" is the right word but it is more sustainable to eat meat than be vegan. Vegetarian with dairy is the most sustainable, followed by vegetarian with dairy and egg and a diet with some meat. What it boils down to is because some land is "grazing land" that isn't suitable for crops. This is an article talking about it but if you click "researchers found", it takes you to the scientific journal where it was published.

Conclusion in one quote:

While agricultural land is often discussed in the aggregate, our analysis shows that accounting for the partitioning of land between grazing land, cultivated cropland, and perennial cropland has a strong influence on estimates of carrying capacity. Indeed, we demonstrate that under a range of land use conditions, diets with low to modest amounts of meat outperform a vegan diet, and vegetarian diets including dairy products performed best overall.

Link: https://qz.com/749443/being-vegan-isnt- ... you-think/

That study appears to be talking exclusively about land efficiency within the US. That doesn't factor in things such as greenhouse gas emissions, water usage etc which are far more pressing issues. Even the article itself states:

The study says striving for plant-based diets (with a little bit of meat on the side, at most) is the way towards environmental efficiency (in other words, using land more sustainably to produce more food).


You're only seeing what you want to.

"The five diets that contained the most meat used all available crop and animal grazing land. The five diets using the least amount of meat—or none at all—varied in land use. But the vegan diet stood out because it was the only diet that used no perennial cropland at all, and, as a result, would waste the chance to produce a lot of food."
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Re: Vegan: The great debate.

Postby real bucs fan » Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:11 pm

Deuce wrote:
real bucs fan wrote:That study appears to be talking exclusively about land efficiency within the US. That doesn't factor in things such as greenhouse gas emissions, water usage etc which are far more pressing issues. Even the article itself states:



You're only seeing what you want to.

"The five diets that contained the most meat used all available crop and animal grazing land. The five diets using the least amount of meat—or none at all—varied in land use. But the vegan diet stood out because it was the only diet that used no perennial cropland at all, and, as a result, would waste the chance to produce a lot of food."


But are they factoring the land used to grow livestock feed outside the US? Doesn't look like it, and most livestock feed is in fact imported from countries like Brazil.... And the greenhouse gas and water points remain as well...
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Re: Vegan: The great debate.

Postby The Outsider » Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:30 pm

The greenhouse gas and land use argument really only holds up to large scale beef farming.
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Re: Vegan: The great debate.

Postby real bucs fan » Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:14 pm

The Outsider wrote:The greenhouse gas and land use argument really only holds up to large scale beef farming.

Dairy too.
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Re: Vegan: The great debate.

Postby Caradoc » Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:30 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:wait, the vegans in this thread are dudes?



I think they "identify" as dudes.
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Re: Vegan: The great debate.

Postby Jason Bourne » Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:31 pm

Caradoc wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:wait, the vegans in this thread are dudes?



I think they "identify" as dudes.



lol
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Re: Vegan: The great debate.

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:33 pm

Jason Bourne wrote:
Caradoc wrote:

I think they "identify" as dudes.



lol



^
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Re: Vegan: The great debate.

Postby real bucs fan » Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:38 pm

Caradoc wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:wait, the vegans in this thread are dudes?



I think they "identify" as dudes.

While I identify you as a bitch
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Re: Vegan: The great debate.

Postby Super K » Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:08 pm

real bucs fan wrote:
Caradoc wrote:

I think they "identify" as dudes.

While I identify you as a bitch


C'mon man, don't get pissy...that was funny as ****...
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Re: Vegan: The great debate.

Postby PrimeMinister » Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:23 pm

Caradoc wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:wait, the vegans in this thread are dudes?



I think they "identify" as dudes.

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Re: Vegan: The great debate.

Postby Zarniwoop » Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:26 pm

Baaaaaahhhhhhhh


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Sides of asparagus and homemade Mac n cheese
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Re: Vegan: The great debate.

Postby Jason Bourne » Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:30 pm

Nice !
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Re: Vegan: The great debate.

Postby The Outsider » Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:42 pm

real bucs fan wrote:
The Outsider wrote:The greenhouse gas and land use argument really only holds up to large scale beef farming.

Dairy too.


I pretty much just meant cows. There are a lot of sustainable alternatives to livestock farming. My favorite is goat. Goats are ****ing delicious, eat anything, and don't need a ton of area for grazing.
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Re: Vegan: The great debate.

Postby Pirate Life » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:57 pm

Actually, we (as well as the primates we evolved from and the other primates existing today) are ominvores that evolved from insect-eating ancestors. Apes, chimpanzees and most other primates do eat meat in their diets (primarily insects but some chimps and other primates eat smaller monkeys, birds and eggs) though the percentage is fairly low (3 to 10 percent of their diet). Orangutangs are the only primate that appears to be a plant-based eater exclusively (mostly fruit, leaves and bark) though occasionaly in the wild have been known to eat meat at times of scarcity of fruits.

Most arugments made by vegans/vegetarians as to our physiological make-up making us plant eaters are ones that state we are not carnivores. That's all well and good, but an omnivore is not a carnivore or an herbivore. Yes, we can get around the dietary limitations of not eating meat through supplements but sorry, the B12 in the soil argument isn't valid as you or others would like to think. Humans and our ancestors have been consuming meat in our diets since 2.9 million years ago with a good bit of that time meat-eating being a significant part of the diet, the need for B12 has surpassed our ability to get it from plants (even accounting for depletion via pesticide). Our bodies and digestive systems have evolved in that time as our ancestors got more calories from meat - hell, there's good evidence that meat eating is what drove us to become the dominant species and spurred our intelligence/sentience (see one of many papers here: https://www.nature.com/articles/nature16990).

There's nothing wrong with being vegetarian/vegan, but anyone seriously trying to argue that we are meant to be herbivores is really just ignoring a whole swath of science, anthroplological and evolutionary evidence to the contrary. Perhaps we were 3 million years ago, but that ship sailed a long, long time ago (I'd argue it wasn't ever really an option as the primates we decended from again were insect eating mammals). I have no issues with people wanting to see folks eat less meat for any number of reasons - environmental, economical, even ethical but saying we were meant to be herbivores is just plain wrong.
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Re: Vegan: The great debate.

Postby Jason Bourne » Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:47 am

real bucs fan wrote:
Caradoc wrote:

I think they "identify" as dudes.

While I identify you as a bitch

:imgay:
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Re: Vegan: The great debate.

Postby Zarniwoop » Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:57 am

For the sake of RBF, I hope someone starts a I LOVE KITTIES thread and goes on about how kitties are better than dogs and takes some pressure of him for a while
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Re: Vegan: The great debate.

Postby Deja Entendu » Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:36 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:For the sake of RBF, I hope someone starts a I LOVE KITTIES thread and goes on about how kitties are better than dogs and takes some pressure of him for a while


Why ya gotta bring kitties into this?? I love my cats.
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Re: Vegan: The great debate.

Postby uscbucsfan » Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:52 pm

Pirate Life wrote:Actually, we (as well as the primates we evolved from and the other primates existing today) are ominvores that evolved from insect-eating ancestors. Apes, chimpanzees and most other primates do eat meat in their diets (primarily insects but some chimps and other primates eat smaller monkeys, birds and eggs) though the percentage is fairly low (3 to 10 percent of their diet). Orangutangs are the only primate that appears to be a plant-based eater exclusively (mostly fruit, leaves and bark) though occasionaly in the wild have been known to eat meat at times of scarcity of fruits.

Most arugments made by vegans/vegetarians as to our physiological make-up making us plant eaters are ones that state we are not carnivores. That's all well and good, but an omnivore is not a carnivore or an herbivore. Yes, we can get around the dietary limitations of not eating meat through supplements but sorry, the B12 in the soil argument isn't valid as you or others would like to think. Humans and our ancestors have been consuming meat in our diets since 2.9 million years ago with a good bit of that time meat-eating being a significant part of the diet, the need for B12 has surpassed our ability to get it from plants (even accounting for depletion via pesticide). Our bodies and digestive systems have evolved in that time as our ancestors got more calories from meat - hell, there's good evidence that meat eating is what drove us to become the dominant species and spurred our intelligence/sentience (see one of many papers here: https://www.nature.com/articles/nature16990).

There's nothing wrong with being vegetarian/vegan, but anyone seriously trying to argue that we are meant to be herbivores is really just ignoring a whole swath of science, anthroplological and evolutionary evidence to the contrary. Perhaps we were 3 million years ago, but that ship sailed a long, long time ago (I'd argue it wasn't ever really an option as the primates we decended from again were insect eating mammals). I have no issues with people wanting to see folks eat less meat for any number of reasons - environmental, economical, even ethical but saying we were meant to be herbivores is just plain wrong.

Well said.
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Re: Vegan: The great debate.

Postby Jason Bourne » Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:46 am

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Re: Vegan: The great debate.

Postby Deuce » Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:33 am

uscbucsfan wrote:
Pirate Life wrote:Actually, we (as well as the primates we evolved from and the other primates existing today) are ominvores that evolved from insect-eating ancestors. Apes, chimpanzees and most other primates do eat meat in their diets (primarily insects but some chimps and other primates eat smaller monkeys, birds and eggs) though the percentage is fairly low (3 to 10 percent of their diet). Orangutangs are the only primate that appears to be a plant-based eater exclusively (mostly fruit, leaves and bark) though occasionaly in the wild have been known to eat meat at times of scarcity of fruits.

Most arugments made by vegans/vegetarians as to our physiological make-up making us plant eaters are ones that state we are not carnivores. That's all well and good, but an omnivore is not a carnivore or an herbivore. Yes, we can get around the dietary limitations of not eating meat through supplements but sorry, the B12 in the soil argument isn't valid as you or others would like to think. Humans and our ancestors have been consuming meat in our diets since 2.9 million years ago with a good bit of that time meat-eating being a significant part of the diet, the need for B12 has surpassed our ability to get it from plants (even accounting for depletion via pesticide). Our bodies and digestive systems have evolved in that time as our ancestors got more calories from meat - hell, there's good evidence that meat eating is what drove us to become the dominant species and spurred our intelligence/sentience (see one of many papers here: https://www.nature.com/articles/nature16990).

There's nothing wrong with being vegetarian/vegan, but anyone seriously trying to argue that we are meant to be herbivores is really just ignoring a whole swath of science, anthroplological and evolutionary evidence to the contrary. Perhaps we were 3 million years ago, but that ship sailed a long, long time ago (I'd argue it wasn't ever really an option as the primates we decended from again were insect eating mammals). I have no issues with people wanting to see folks eat less meat for any number of reasons - environmental, economical, even ethical but saying we were meant to be herbivores is just plain wrong.

Well said.


Inb4 running back fan finds one sentence that he can argue with and makes the whole thing wrong.
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Re: Vegan: The great debate.

Postby real bucs fan » Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:27 am

The whole natural herbivore/carnivore/omnivore debate isn't the point here. I only reiterated the non-bias opinion of an archeological scientist who isn't vegan that wasn't even talking about veganism. She was talking about how off the idea of what our ancestors ate was in terms of mainstream perception, and that our genetic adaptations are for plant consumption. Pirate Life was dead on about the fact our diet consisted mostly of insects when it came to our animal protein intake, (and this was covered in the video I shared). If you want to eat as our ancestors did, go eat some bugs. I do definitely disagree with a couple of his points, but I don't want to get bogged down into that discussion though as it isn't what I'm trying to discuss.

What I'm trying to talk about here, is how we as a species should eat moving forward. That's what matters.
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Re: Vegan: The great debate.

Postby DreadNaught » Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:38 am

real bucs fan wrote:The whole natural herbivore/carnivore/omnivore debate isn't the point here. I only reiterated the non-bias opinion of an archeological scientist who isn't vegan that wasn't even talking about veganism. She was talking about how off the idea of what our ancestors ate was in terms of mainstream perception, and that our genetic adaptations are for plant consumption. Pirate Life was dead on about the fact our diet consisted mostly of insects when it came to our animal protein intake, (and this was covered in the video I shared). If you want to eat as our ancestors did, go eat some bugs. I do definitely disagree with a couple of his points, but I don't want to get bogged down into that discussion though as it isn't what I'm trying to discuss.

What I'm trying to talk about here, is how we as a species should eat moving forward. That's what matters.


Moderation is key in any diet, and life in general. I've haven't really followed this thread closely but are you saying Human should not be eating any meat? So a Paleo based diet (Meats, Veggies, healthy fats) is something you'd consider to be bad/detrimental?

I understand the benefits of veganism/vegetarians. But don't buy into the 'humans shouldn't eat meat' narrative. If a person has a healthy diet and excersise routine there is nothing wrong w/ some Steak or Sea Bass once in while.

Damn vegans want to take the joy out of life. ;)
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Re: Vegan: The great debate.

Postby real bucs fan » Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:43 am

DreadNaught wrote:
real bucs fan wrote:The whole natural herbivore/carnivore/omnivore debate isn't the point here. I only reiterated the non-bias opinion of an archeological scientist who isn't vegan that wasn't even talking about veganism. She was talking about how off the idea of what our ancestors ate was in terms of mainstream perception, and that our genetic adaptations are for plant consumption. Pirate Life was dead on about the fact our diet consisted mostly of insects when it came to our animal protein intake, (and this was covered in the video I shared). If you want to eat as our ancestors did, go eat some bugs. I do definitely disagree with a couple of his points, but I don't want to get bogged down into that discussion though as it isn't what I'm trying to discuss.

What I'm trying to talk about here, is how we as a species should eat moving forward. That's what matters.


Moderation is key in any diet, and life in general. I've haven't really followed this thread closely but are you saying Human should not be eating any meat? So a Paleo based diet (Meats, Veggies, healthy fats) is something you'd consider to be bad/detrimental?

I understand the benefits of veganism/vegetarians. But don't buy into the 'humans shouldn't eat meat' narrative. If a person has a healthy diet and excersise routine there is nothing wrong w/ some Steak or Sea Bass once in while.

Damn vegans want to take the joy out of life. ;)

I'm simply trying to encourage folks to consider eating more plant based. I'm not trying to judge anyone, and I don't think I posted anything judgemental. All I'm really trying to say is that moving towards a more plant based diet is certainly a healthy decision for humanity as a species, and that if anyone decides to give it a shot, I bet that they won't regret it.
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Re: Vegan: The great debate.

Postby Phantom Phenom » Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:57 am

“All soy is GMO!”

“But I heard soy causes cancer!”

"The myth of ‘moobs’ (man boobs)"
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Re: Vegan: The great debate.

Postby Deuce » Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:36 pm

real bucs fan wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
Moderation is key in any diet, and life in general. I've haven't really followed this thread closely but are you saying Human should not be eating any meat? So a Paleo based diet (Meats, Veggies, healthy fats) is something you'd consider to be bad/detrimental?

I understand the benefits of veganism/vegetarians. But don't buy into the 'humans shouldn't eat meat' narrative. If a person has a healthy diet and excersise routine there is nothing wrong w/ some Steak or Sea Bass once in while.

Damn vegans want to take the joy out of life. ;)

I'm simply trying to encourage folks to consider eating more plant based. I'm not trying to judge anyone, and I don't think I posted anything judgemental. All I'm really trying to say is that moving towards a more plant based diet is certainly a healthy decision for humanity as a species, and that if anyone decides to give it a shot, I bet that they won't regret it.


While I think some of your beliefs are a little wacky, I'm all for getting people to eat healthier. Could you post what you eat on a normal day? It's just hard for me to imagine every meal, every day without meat, eggs, and dairy.

I wouldn't hesitate to post mine if it helps. I've kind of constructed my diet around the fact that I tried keto and it worked but sapped my energy. So I still eat pretty low carb and no sugar.
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Re: Vegan: The great debate.

Postby real bucs fan » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:11 pm

Deuce wrote:
real bucs fan wrote:I'm simply trying to encourage folks to consider eating more plant based. I'm not trying to judge anyone, and I don't think I posted anything judgemental. All I'm really trying to say is that moving towards a more plant based diet is certainly a healthy decision for humanity as a species, and that if anyone decides to give it a shot, I bet that they won't regret it.


While I think some of your beliefs are a little wacky, I'm all for getting people to eat healthier. Could you post what you eat on a normal day? It's just hard for me to imagine every meal, every day without meat, eggs, and dairy.

I wouldn't hesitate to post mine if it helps. I've kind of constructed my diet around the fact that I tried keto and it worked but sapped my energy. So I still eat pretty low carb and no sugar.


Generally, monday to friday, I usually have coffee early, perhaps some toast with avocado or peanut/almond butter just to get some caffeine and fat in to get me going. But my real breakfast is my breakfast smoothie which consists of (measurements are a guess as I usually just ballpark it):

2-3 cups of fortified plant based milk (almond/cashew if I'm cutting calories or soy/pea if I'm adding calories)
half cup of rolled oats
1-2 tbspns of hemp hearts
1-2 tbspns of chia seeds
1-2 tbspns of flax seeds
1 tspn of algae oil
1 tspn of Moringa
1 tspn of Maca
1 banana
Big handful of kale and spinach
Mixed frozen berries

That smoothie pretty much makes sure I'm covered health wise for the day. After that I usually have 2 meals. Those meals vary massively and rotate between lunch and dinner, burritos, stirfrys, pasta, pizza, currys, sushi, veggie burgers etc etc it's pretty limitless, pretty much anything you can eat, I can veganize it. But my general rule of thumb is to try and get a salad in either at lunch or dinner, and then with both meals I try and get other mixed veggies in, some whole starches like pototoes (mashed or baked), and then some kind of legume protein source.

On the weekends, I generally just hammer whatever I want and eat way less healthy consume alcohol etc etc all that fun stuff. It takes a while to figure out, but once you do, it's easy to do without a second thought. Beyond the vegan thing, I'm a believer in balanced diets which means a healthy amount of carbs, fats, and protein.
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Re: Vegan: The great debate.

Postby NYBF » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:34 pm

I'm guessing for pizza you either use some sort of plastic cheese or forget it all together. But sushi? wtf?
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Re: Vegan: The great debate.

Postby Deuce » Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:43 pm

real bucs fan wrote:
Deuce wrote:
While I think some of your beliefs are a little wacky, I'm all for getting people to eat healthier. Could you post what you eat on a normal day? It's just hard for me to imagine every meal, every day without meat, eggs, and dairy.

I wouldn't hesitate to post mine if it helps. I've kind of constructed my diet around the fact that I tried keto and it worked but sapped my energy. So I still eat pretty low carb and no sugar.


Generally, monday to friday, I usually have coffee early, perhaps some toast with avocado or peanut/almond butter just to get some caffeine and fat in to get me going. But my real breakfast is my breakfast smoothie which consists of (measurements are a guess as I usually just ballpark it):

2-3 cups of fortified plant based milk (almond/cashew if I'm cutting calories or soy/pea if I'm adding calories)
half cup of rolled oats
1-2 tbspns of hemp hearts
1-2 tbspns of chia seeds
1-2 tbspns of flax seeds
1 tspn of algae oil
1 tspn of Moringa
1 tspn of Maca
1 banana
Big handful of kale and spinach
Mixed frozen berries

That smoothie pretty much makes sure I'm covered health wise for the day. After that I usually have 2 meals. Those meals vary massively and rotate between lunch and dinner, burritos, stirfrys, pasta, pizza, currys, sushi, veggie burgers etc etc it's pretty limitless, pretty much anything you can eat, I can veganize it. But my general rule of thumb is to try and get a salad in either at lunch or dinner, and then with both meals I try and get other mixed veggies in, some whole starches like pototoes (mashed or baked), and then some kind of legume protein source.

On the weekends, I generally just hammer whatever I want and eat way less healthy consume alcohol etc etc all that fun stuff. It takes a while to figure out, but once you do, it's easy to do without a second thought. Beyond the vegan thing, I'm a believer in balanced diets which means a healthy amount of carbs, fats, and protein.


I've never heard of a few things in your shake, lol. Most of the stuff you listed sounds fine besides veggie burgers. Seems ironic to go vegan and then want a burger. Indian and mexican foods seem the easiest to convert.

I think I could do vegetarian pretty easily. I usually eat sardines or tuna on a salad at lunch but I replace them with hummus or avocado sometimes. And for dinner, I usually eat things with meat interspersed, rarely do I eat a full steak or chicken breast. But I always eat cottage cheese for breakfast, cream in my coffee, and eggs for breakfast on weekends. No way I'd give those up.
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Re: Vegan: The great debate.

Postby real bucs fan » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:00 pm

NYBF wrote:I'm guessing for pizza you either use some sort of plastic cheese or forget it all together. But sushi? wtf?

For sushi, I make veggie rolls then steam edamame for protein. No fake fish or anything.

My preferred vegan cheese replacer is made from cashews.
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Re: Vegan: The great debate.

Postby real bucs fan » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:08 pm

Deuce wrote:
real bucs fan wrote:
Generally, monday to friday, I usually have coffee early, perhaps some toast with avocado or peanut/almond butter just to get some caffeine and fat in to get me going. But my real breakfast is my breakfast smoothie which consists of (measurements are a guess as I usually just ballpark it):

2-3 cups of fortified plant based milk (almond/cashew if I'm cutting calories or soy/pea if I'm adding calories)
half cup of rolled oats
1-2 tbspns of hemp hearts
1-2 tbspns of chia seeds
1-2 tbspns of flax seeds
1 tspn of algae oil
1 tspn of Moringa
1 tspn of Maca
1 banana
Big handful of kale and spinach
Mixed frozen berries

That smoothie pretty much makes sure I'm covered health wise for the day. After that I usually have 2 meals. Those meals vary massively and rotate between lunch and dinner, burritos, stirfrys, pasta, pizza, currys, sushi, veggie burgers etc etc it's pretty limitless, pretty much anything you can eat, I can veganize it. But my general rule of thumb is to try and get a salad in either at lunch or dinner, and then with both meals I try and get other mixed veggies in, some whole starches like pototoes (mashed or baked), and then some kind of legume protein source.

On the weekends, I generally just hammer whatever I want and eat way less healthy consume alcohol etc etc all that fun stuff. It takes a while to figure out, but once you do, it's easy to do without a second thought. Beyond the vegan thing, I'm a believer in balanced diets which means a healthy amount of carbs, fats, and protein.


I've never heard of a few things in your shake, lol. Most of the stuff you listed sounds fine besides veggie burgers. Seems ironic to go vegan and then want a burger. Indian and mexican foods seem the easiest to convert.

I think I could do vegetarian pretty easily. I usually eat sardines or tuna on a salad at lunch but I replace them with hummus or avocado sometimes. And for dinner, I usually eat things with meat interspersed, rarely do I eat a full steak or chicken breast. But I always eat cottage cheese for breakfast, cream in my coffee, and eggs for breakfast on weekends. No way I'd give those up.

A lot of the stuff in my shake isn't really necessary, I'm good friends with the old Chinese guy at my local health food store. I usually just pop in to chat with him and buy random stuff he recommends.

Veggie burgers are mostly a convenience thing. I can keep them frozen and fry them up whenever I want something quick.
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