Private workouts/visits tracker 2018

Dedicated to College Football and Draft discussion.
post

Re: Private workouts/visits tracker 2018

Postby uscbucsfan » Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:12 am

Naismith wrote:Christian McCaffrey refused to workout for teams. Kentavius Street and Nick Nelson agreed to workout for teams. Whose draft stock was negatively impacted more?

You think all situations are equal?

From what I've read, most private workouts outside of the QB position, are to either see a player who was previously injured up close or test a player on playing a different position or their technique in a different scheme. All workouts are to give a team who has questions on a player a better look. Many times the top picks aren't invited to a team for a private workout, because teams don't have huge questions on them after watching hours of tape and combine film. Players that are brought in are usually ones that teams are iffy on either taking or trading up for.

Again, I'm not saying it necessarily hurt James (it could have with certain teams...maybe even the Bucs, we don't know...) and it's not a big deal, but it's certainly not seen as a positive. No team out there was like "James rejected workouts, let's move him up".
Last edited by uscbucsfan on Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:14 am, edited 2 times in total.
Image
User avatar
uscbucsfan
 
Posts: 4114
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:21 pm
Has thanked: 90 times
Been thanked: 107 times

Re: Private workouts/visits tracker 2018

Postby Doctor » Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:13 am

uscbucsfan wrote:
Naismith wrote:They've already been worked out and medically tested. They're only adding risk with zero benefit.

0 benefit, except higher draft pick and more money.

Sound logic.

Exactly. If a team has "seen enough" they aren't going to ask you to come in and do a work out. Clearly there are still some question they want answered and you refusing to answer them doesn't look good. You refusing to because you don't trust your own durability, even worse. Is this guy going to bring in every practice? Games that are out of hand?
Image
User avatar
Doctor
 
Posts: 5030
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2015 6:54 pm
Location: Out of the Office. Will return next Fall.
Has thanked: 209 times
Been thanked: 149 times

Re: Private workouts/visits tracker 2018

Postby Naismith » Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:18 am

Okay, let's use non-real examples. What hurts Derwin James' draft position more, refusing to work out for a team or injuring himself in a private workout? There's an objectively correct answer to this. They have tape on him. He tested really well at the combine. He did more (although limited) drills at his Pro Day. He was checked out, medically, at the combine. There's no reason to put up with these private team workouts. If they can't evaluate him based on the info they already have, it wasn't meant to be.
User avatar
Naismith
 
Posts: 1349
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2016 8:51 pm
Has thanked: 62 times
Been thanked: 85 times

Re: Private workouts/visits tracker 2018

Postby uscbucsfan » Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:21 am

Naismith wrote:Okay, let's use non-real examples. What hurts Derwin James' draft position more, refusing to work out for a team or injuring himself in a private workout? There's an objectively correct answer to this. They have tape on him. He tested really well at the combine. He did more (although limited) drills at his Pro Day. He was checked out, medically, at the combine. There's no reason to put up with these private team workouts. If they can't evaluate him based on the info they already have, it wasn't meant to be.


Injuring himself is such an extreme. Players go through so many workouts and we rarely see pre-draft workout injuries. If he felt like the risk was not worth it, it was his decision. I only responded because you said there is no benefit to a private workout and it's actually a positive that a player denies workouts. That's ridiculous, because teams requesting workouts may not draft someone who turns them down, which could potentially cost him money, that's a consequence of not doing this.
Image
User avatar
uscbucsfan
 
Posts: 4114
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:21 pm
Has thanked: 90 times
Been thanked: 107 times

Re: Private workouts/visits tracker 2018

Postby Doctor » Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:28 am

Naismith wrote:Okay, let's use non-real examples. What hurts Derwin James' draft position more, refusing to work out for a team or injuring himself in a private workout? There's an objectively correct answer to this. They have tape on him. He tested really well at the combine. He did more (although limited) drills at his Pro Day. He was checked out, medically, at the combine. There's no reason to put up with these private team workouts. If they can't evaluate him based on the info they already have, it wasn't meant to be.

Well this is stupid. This applies to literally every player. Let me ask you, what HELPS James stock more? Having an outstanding work out or leaving teams questions unanswered?
Image
User avatar
Doctor
 
Posts: 5030
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2015 6:54 pm
Location: Out of the Office. Will return next Fall.
Has thanked: 209 times
Been thanked: 149 times

Re: Private workouts/visits tracker 2018

Postby Naismith » Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:48 am

I only responded because you said there is no benefit to a private workout and it's actually a positive that a player denies workouts.


Fine, I will amend this to there’s at most an almost insignificant positive and a devastating negative that can come out of private workouts. I would definitely consider it a positive that a player was smart enough to avoid them.
User avatar
Naismith
 
Posts: 1349
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2016 8:51 pm
Has thanked: 62 times
Been thanked: 85 times

Re: Private workouts/visits tracker 2018

Postby Doctor » Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:52 am

Naismith wrote:
I only responded because you said there is no benefit to a private workout and it's actually a positive that a player denies workouts.


Fine, I will amend this to there’s at most an almost insignificant positive and a devastating negative that can come out of private workouts. I would definitely consider it a positive that a player was smart enough to avoid them.

So all the other players in the draft are morons except for James? Got it.
Image
User avatar
Doctor
 
Posts: 5030
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2015 6:54 pm
Location: Out of the Office. Will return next Fall.
Has thanked: 209 times
Been thanked: 149 times

Re: Private workouts/visits tracker 2018

Postby uscbucsfan » Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:53 am

Naismith wrote:
I only responded because you said there is no benefit to a private workout and it's actually a positive that a player denies workouts.


Fine, I will amend this to there’s at most an almost insignificant positive and a devastating negative that can come out of private workouts. I would definitely consider it a positive that a player was smart enough to avoid them.

Still stupid, but to each their own.
Image
User avatar
uscbucsfan
 
Posts: 4114
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:21 pm
Has thanked: 90 times
Been thanked: 107 times

Re: Private workouts/visits tracker 2018

Postby Naismith » Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:59 am

That’s an oversimplified response to someone being called smart. Smart people can do things because that is how it has always been done. Smart people can have it ingrained in them to always do what the coach asks. Simply put, smart people can make sub optimal decisions.
User avatar
Naismith
 
Posts: 1349
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2016 8:51 pm
Has thanked: 62 times
Been thanked: 85 times

Re: Private workouts/visits tracker 2018

Postby uscbucsfan » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:01 pm

Naismith wrote:That’s an oversimplified response to someone being called smart. Smart people can do things because that is how it has always been done. Smart people can have it ingrained in them to always do what the coach asks. Simply put, smart people can make sub optimal decisions.

lol.

You are all in on this.
Image
User avatar
uscbucsfan
 
Posts: 4114
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:21 pm
Has thanked: 90 times
Been thanked: 107 times

Re: Private workouts/visits tracker 2018

Postby Naismith » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:03 pm

From the sense that I’m clearly correct about this, I guess so. I’m surprised anyone would take the opposite stance.
User avatar
Naismith
 
Posts: 1349
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2016 8:51 pm
Has thanked: 62 times
Been thanked: 85 times

Re: Private workouts/visits tracker 2018

Postby Super K » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:13 pm

I'm of the opinion that players should participate in both...no matter what...but what's the difference between skipping a bowl game and skipping a private workout?....
User avatar
Super K
 
Posts: 6739
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 3:26 pm
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 189 times

Re: Private workouts/visits tracker 2018

Postby uscbucsfan » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:23 pm

Super K wrote:I'm of the opinion that players should participate in both...no matter what...but what's the difference between skipping a bowl game and skipping a private workout?....

GMs have anonymously said they devalue players who skip bowl games. I don't know if that's true, but the difference is a private workout, like previously stated, is requested because a team has specific questions about drafting a player. Denying that workout leaves the questions unresolved. If they are serious enough questions, the team won't pick said player. As I stated originally, as a whole this isn't a big deal. Players weigh risk vs reward and make their choice, but to say it would have 0 or little impact is also naive. If we took James off of our board because of this (not saying we did) he could fall a bit and lose money. In the end he'd still be healthy and may call that a win, but there was a consequence.
Image
User avatar
uscbucsfan
 
Posts: 4114
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:21 pm
Has thanked: 90 times
Been thanked: 107 times

Re: Private workouts/visits tracker 2018

Postby Doctor » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:26 pm

Super K wrote:I'm of the opinion that players should participate in both...no matter what...but what's the difference between skipping a bowl game and skipping a private workout?....

I wouldn't mind so much skipping a bowl game. It's a stupid game and there's plenty of contact. A work out is... a work out. Seriously. Like, working out is your job, you're suppose to do it everyday. What do you think practice is?

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if this causes him to fall a bit. He had a chance at the top 10, but I could see him going to the Ravens at 16. He struggles with zones, he has durability concerns, and his tackling is sloppy. His elite athleticism is his saving grace that lets you overlook all that and he doesn't put it on display when teams ask him too.
Image
User avatar
Doctor
 
Posts: 5030
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2015 6:54 pm
Location: Out of the Office. Will return next Fall.
Has thanked: 209 times
Been thanked: 149 times

Re: Private workouts/visits tracker 2018

Postby Super K » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:29 pm

Doctor wrote:
Super K wrote:I'm of the opinion that players should participate in both...no matter what...but what's the difference between skipping a bowl game and skipping a private workout?....

I wouldn't mind so much skipping a bowl game. It's a stupid game and there's plenty of contact. A work out is... a work out. Seriously. Like, working out is your job, you're suppose to do it everyday. What do you think practice is?


Working out isn't their job...playing football is...they aren't personal trainers..

How the hell is missing a GAME better than missing some 40s, benching and some 3 cone drills?...
User avatar
Super K
 
Posts: 6739
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 3:26 pm
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 189 times

Re: Private workouts/visits tracker 2018

Postby uscbucsfan » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:31 pm

Super K wrote:
Doctor wrote:I wouldn't mind so much skipping a bowl game. It's a stupid game and there's plenty of contact. A work out is... a work out. Seriously. Like, working out is your job, you're suppose to do it everyday. What do you think practice is?


How the hell is missing a GAME better than missing some 40s, benching and some 3 cone drills?...


You think that's what they do in private workouts?
Image
User avatar
uscbucsfan
 
Posts: 4114
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:21 pm
Has thanked: 90 times
Been thanked: 107 times

Re: Private workouts/visits tracker 2018

Postby Naismith » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:35 pm

When factoring risk vs reward, there's actually some reward in playing in a bowl game. I don't think one game has any real significance in draft position, though.
User avatar
Naismith
 
Posts: 1349
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2016 8:51 pm
Has thanked: 62 times
Been thanked: 85 times

Re: Private workouts/visits tracker 2018

Postby Bootz2004 » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:36 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:
Super K wrote:
How the hell is missing a GAME better than missing some 40s, benching and some 3 cone drills?...


You think that's what they do in private workouts?


You obviously don't know otherwise you would've told him what they do in private workouts.

As far as my POV private workouts are pointless. What are you going to learn that you don't see on their game tape? They don't have pads on. They aren't running plays. So the prospect has more to lose than they do to gain. You think the Giants are going to feel bad about Kentavius Street getting hurt during their workout and will draft him? Not a chance.

If you as a team pass on a player because they didn't workout for you, your loss.
User avatar
Bootz2004
 
Posts: 21943
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 4:17 pm
Has thanked: 101 times
Been thanked: 464 times

Re: Private workouts/visits tracker 2018

Postby Super K » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:36 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:
Super K wrote:
How the hell is missing a GAME better than missing some 40s, benching and some 3 cone drills?...


You think that's what they do in private workouts?


No, they just made my argument look better...

Tell you what they don't do, they don't play in a competitive football game...
User avatar
Super K
 
Posts: 6739
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 3:26 pm
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 189 times

Re: Private workouts/visits tracker 2018

Postby uscbucsfan » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:39 pm

Super K wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:
You think that's what they do in private workouts?


No, they just made my argument look better...

Tell you what they don't do, they don't play in a competitive football game...


Right, but that's not the point of a private workout. We are repeating all of this, but the workout is to answer questions usually about injuries, switching positions/schemes, see how coachable someone is, or just answer questions in general. If they've played in enough games, a single bowl game isn't that big of deal IMO. The combine isn't that big of deal IMO. Private workouts, how they are set up, are seemingly pretty important, but not a deal breaker.
Image
User avatar
uscbucsfan
 
Posts: 4114
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:21 pm
Has thanked: 90 times
Been thanked: 107 times

Re: Private workouts/visits tracker 2018

Postby Doctor » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:45 pm

Exactly, private work outs are customized to the team. Generic combine work outs are nice, but they don't answer all your questions or perhaps don't really show something you need from that player or position or else teams wouldn't even have private work outs.

It's hilarious that you're literally sitting there telling us that "private work outs and meaningless and don't tell you anything you already don't know" while there are 32 highly paid GMs who spent the last few months scheduling worthless private workouts.
Image
User avatar
Doctor
 
Posts: 5030
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2015 6:54 pm
Location: Out of the Office. Will return next Fall.
Has thanked: 209 times
Been thanked: 149 times

Re: Private workouts/visits tracker 2018

Postby DreadNaught » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:50 pm

All these player workouts are unnecessary imo. I understand private workouts for QBs to some degree. But for every other position NFL teams have their game tape, senior bowl, combine, and pro-days to see them in whatever drills they want to see. It's unnecessary risk for these prospects who are trying to impress every team in hopes of getting drafted the highest they can.

I like the idea of 30 private visits so teams can get to know a prospect, but there is no reason for the prospects to work out during that visit imo.

If anything prospects should just say 'I will have X amount of public workouts after my pro day, if you still want/need to see me perform a specific drill please let my agent know and we'll include it into the workout script that day'. Then teams that are interests can show up.
Image
User avatar
DreadNaught
 
Posts: 11696
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 9:18 am
Has thanked: 479 times
Been thanked: 502 times

Re: Private workouts/visits tracker 2018

Postby Naismith » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:52 pm

Doctor wrote:It's hilarious that you're literally sitting there telling us that "private work outs and meaningless and don't tell you anything you already don't know" while there are 32 highly paid GMs who spent the last few months scheduling worthless private workouts.


There are reasons that a private workout may benefit a team but that has nothing to do with benefiting the player.
User avatar
Naismith
 
Posts: 1349
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2016 8:51 pm
Has thanked: 62 times
Been thanked: 85 times

Re: Private workouts/visits tracker 2018

Postby Doctor » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:57 pm

Naismith wrote:
Doctor wrote:It's hilarious that you're literally sitting there telling us that "private work outs and meaningless and don't tell you anything you already don't know" while there are 32 highly paid GMs who spent the last few months scheduling worthless private workouts.


There are reasons that a private workout may benefit a team but that has nothing to do with benefiting the player.

Unless of course by some crazy coincidence the team is actually INTERESTED in drafting the player they are working out. Yeah, sure, getting drafted higher and making more money = no benefit to the player at all.
Image
User avatar
Doctor
 
Posts: 5030
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2015 6:54 pm
Location: Out of the Office. Will return next Fall.
Has thanked: 209 times
Been thanked: 149 times

Re: Private workouts/visits tracker 2018

Postby Bootz2004 » Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:01 pm

DreadNaught wrote:All these player workouts are unnecessary imo. I understand private workouts for QBs to some degree. But for every other position NFL teams have their game tape, senior bowl, combine, and pro-days to see them in whatever drills they want to see. It's unnecessary risk for these prospects who are trying to impress every team in hopes of getting drafted the highest they can.

I like the idea of 30 private visits so teams can get to know a prospect, but there is no reason for the prospects to work out during that visit imo.

If anything prospects should just say 'I will have X amount of public workouts after my pro day, if you still want/need to see me perform a specific drill please let my agent know and we'll include it into the workout script that day'. Then teams that are interests can show up.


Not to mention that sometimes during the combine and pro days teams put some players thru their own workours as well. Scheduling one weeks later at their own facility is a waste and risky.
User avatar
Bootz2004
 
Posts: 21943
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 4:17 pm
Has thanked: 101 times
Been thanked: 464 times

Re: Private workouts/visits tracker 2018

Postby Naismith » Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:08 pm

There's only a benefit if you truly believe teams need private workouts to draft a guy which has already been proven untrue with past guys that have refused private workouts. And even if it is true that a team might pass on a guy due to it, what's the worse that can happen? Drop a few picks? What's the worst that can happen if you agree to a workout?
User avatar
Naismith
 
Posts: 1349
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2016 8:51 pm
Has thanked: 62 times
Been thanked: 85 times

Re: Private workouts/visits tracker 2018

Postby Doctor » Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:13 pm

Naismith wrote:There's only a benefit if you truly believe teams need private workouts to draft a guy which has already been proven untrue with past guys that have refused private workouts. And even if it is true that a team might pass on a guy due to it, what's the worse that can happen? Drop a few picks? What's the worst that can happen if you agree to a workout?

Unless a player refused to work out and was taken #1 overall, you are talking out of your ass and you can't possibly know that first statement.

EDIT: And even if that is the case with some players, which I grant you, it may very well be that skipping workouts didn't effect this or that player much at all. You have no way of knowing if they are the rule or the exception. All players and situations are different and maybe something doesn't hurt/help Player A nearly as much as Player B or C.
Last edited by Doctor on Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image
User avatar
Doctor
 
Posts: 5030
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2015 6:54 pm
Location: Out of the Office. Will return next Fall.
Has thanked: 209 times
Been thanked: 149 times

Re: Private workouts/visits tracker 2018

Postby Naismith » Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:15 pm

So you think McCaffrey would have gone higher than 8 last year had he agreed to workout with teams? And if so, that still is a much better worst case scenario than it is if you do workout.
User avatar
Naismith
 
Posts: 1349
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2016 8:51 pm
Has thanked: 62 times
Been thanked: 85 times

Re: Private workouts/visits tracker 2018

Postby Doctor » Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:16 pm

Ha. I already knew what cherry tree you were going to pick from so I editted my reply for you. ;)
Image
User avatar
Doctor
 
Posts: 5030
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2015 6:54 pm
Location: Out of the Office. Will return next Fall.
Has thanked: 209 times
Been thanked: 149 times

Re: Private workouts/visits tracker 2018

Postby DreadNaught » Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:18 pm

Naismith wrote:What's the worst that can happen if you agree to a workout?


Tear your ACL and go from a first round prospect to day 3 pick losing millions of guaranteed money over the next 4 years.

The greatest risk with private workouts is specific for prospects projected to go top 20 or so imo. Guys drafted in round 2 don't make much more than those on day 3. Compared to the huge increase guys drafted in the top 20 to everyone else. LINK

But I completely understand why any projected top 20 pick (like Derwin James) doesn't want to risk injury by working out on his private visits.
Image
User avatar
DreadNaught
 
Posts: 11696
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 9:18 am
Has thanked: 479 times
Been thanked: 502 times

PreviousNext

post

Return to College Football/Draft Talk

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 7 guests

cron