Bucs Doomsday Scenario

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The big 3 are gone, and you can't trade back...who is your pick at #7?

Derwin James
12
29%
Minkah Fitzpatrick
9
21%
Denzel Ward
11
26%
Vita Vea
9
21%
Marcus Davenport
0
No votes
Tremaine Edmunds
0
No votes
Josh Jackson
1
2%
Derrius Guice
0
No votes
Other (Please specify)
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 42

Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby mdb1958 » Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:03 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
Naismith wrote:
Interior rush doesn't need to result in sacks. It needs to get QBs uncomfortable, collapse pockets and get QBs moving towards edge rushers and away from where they want to be when they throw the ball.


I don't disagree with that. But Vea isn't going to bull rush NFL interior Olinemen like he did college. Vea would likely be effective next to a elite DT like McCoy b/c Vea would get 1v1's, but if you're spending the 7th overall pick on a DT than he better be able to create pressure when he is the DT1 on a team and Vea isn't that type of DT.

I like Vea, just not at 7. If we traded down and picked up additional picks on day 2 that would open up our board than I love a guy like Vea somewhere in the 12-15 range. I just think there are more impactful players to be had at 7th overall.



Washingtons pass defense gave up 8 TD's
Washington rush defense #1
Total defense #5
Longest pass completion against 40 yards - that #1 in the FBS

Vea can play all three positions on a 3-4 front and depending on the situation I imagine he could play either DT positions in a 4-3.

Teams knew you had to get rid of that ball fast or you were going to get crushed and I cant name anyone on their defense. Have there been star DE's and star OLB's from Washington in the last few years?
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby Bootz2004 » Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:08 pm

mdb1958 wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
I don't disagree with that. But Vea isn't going to bull rush NFL interior Olinemen like he did college. Vea would likely be effective next to a elite DT like McCoy b/c Vea would get 1v1's, but if you're spending the 7th overall pick on a DT than he better be able to create pressure when he is the DT1 on a team and Vea isn't that type of DT.

I like Vea, just not at 7. If we traded down and picked up additional picks on day 2 that would open up our board than I love a guy like Vea somewhere in the 12-15 range. I just think there are more impactful players to be had at 7th overall.



Washingtons pass defense gave up 8 TD's
Washington rush defense #1
Total defense #5
Longest pass completion against 40 yards - that #1 in the FBS

Vea can play all three positions on a 3-4 front and depending on the situation I imagine he could play either DT positions in a 4-3.

Teams knew you had to get rid of that ball fast or you were going to get crushed and I cant name anyone on their defense. Have there been star DE's and star OLB's from Washington in the last few years?


That I can think of just Shaq Thompson recently.
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby Cheb » Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:13 pm

In the past three drafts, Washington's defense has produced Danny Shelton, Marcus Peters, Shaq Thompson, Hau'oli Kikaha, Kevin King, Buddah Baker, and Sidney Jones. All first or second round picks. One defensive tackle, three corners, one outside backer, one edge, and a safety. Not bad.

Pete Kwiatkowski runs a tight ship over there. I heard him talk at a clinic once. Smart dude.
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby mdb1958 » Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:03 pm

Cheb wrote:In the past three drafts, Washington's defense has produced Danny Shelton, Marcus Peters, Shaq Thompson, Hau'oli Kikaha, Kevin King, Buddah Baker, and Sidney Jones. All first or second round picks. One defensive tackle, three corners, one outside backer, one edge, and a safety. Not bad.

Pete Kwiatkowski runs a tight ship over there. I heard him talk at a clinic once. Smart dude.


I guess the point I was trying to make, or one of them is most of their linebackers are smallish 220's and 230's.
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby Bootz2004 » Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:05 pm

mdb1958 wrote:
Cheb wrote:In the past three drafts, Washington's defense has produced Danny Shelton, Marcus Peters, Shaq Thompson, Hau'oli Kikaha, Kevin King, Buddah Baker, and Sidney Jones. All first or second round picks. One defensive tackle, three corners, one outside backer, one edge, and a safety. Not bad.

Pete Kwiatkowski runs a tight ship over there. I heard him talk at a clinic once. Smart dude.


I guess the point I was trying to make, or one of them is most of their linebackers are smallish 220's and 230's.


Then why didn't you just say that, kyddo
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby mdb1958 » Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:10 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
mdb1958 wrote:
I guess the point I was trying to make, or one of them is most of their linebackers are smallish 220's and 230's.


Then why didn't you just say that, kyddo

Also Unrein's whole career has been in a 3-4.
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby Doctor » Sun Apr 08, 2018 4:57 pm

MJW wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:I think that goes against your point more than for it, you had to exclude probably 5 of the top 10 cbs in the NFL including the best of the best. Some of the guys you listed are not worth the 7th pick of the draft by some people's standards. It was a misleading post at best. I think Ward does play taller than his height.


I think Ward is as good or better than everyone on that list. Or coule be.

You're kind of Bootzing it here, USC. I was making the point that smaller corners than Ward are among the best in the league. That's all. Saying that Ward being 5'10 3/4ths and 191 lbs is a reason not to draft him is folly.

No one's saying that. I like Ward, I don't think Ward size is a reason not to draft him. I'd be very happy drafting Ward. But it's a far walk from that to him being BPA at #7. It'd have to be a doomsday draft to justify Ward at #7.
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby Agent Orange » Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:51 pm

I go Minkah Fitzpatrick. He is only the 3rd player ever to win the Thorpe award, nations best defensive back, and the bednarik award for best overall defensive player. The only two others are Charles Woodson and Patrick Peterson. I want this player on my team.
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby Alpha » Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:28 pm

Cheb wrote:I went with Ward because I feel that he's a better corner prospect than Minkah. Ward would fight VH3 for the number two job behind Grimes, loser goes to nickel. Ryan Smith is delegated to being a developmental and situational fourth corner because that's where he belongs and we never run dime.

I wouldn't complain much about Fitz, Vea, or James. All are good players. Not who I'd go with in this scenario, but I get it.

I'd loudly complain about Davenport, don't like him one bit. Edmunds would be a headscratcher; do you plan to make him a pass rusher? I don't like Jackson, I think he'll bust.


Basically...EXACTLY this.

Our OBVIOUS weakness, as of TODAY, is CB.

IF one of the "big 3" are there...especially Chubb or Nelson...you have to jump but other than that? We need secondary help BIG TIME. IF the staff feels like Fitz can play (situationally) at CB, then you go there. Otherwise, you take the best CB in the draft. That's Ward. VH3 is the nickel. Bada-Bing...decent secondary.

Davenport would be a MASSIVE reach at 7. Edmunds makes ZERO sense. James "could" be the stud of this draft in a few years...or he could bust. I don't make that guess at 7. I probably would make it at 10/11/12.

Under NO CIRCUMSTANCE, do I take a RB at 7, in this draft. REGARDLESS of who the RB is.
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby MJW » Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:48 am

Alpha wrote:Under NO CIRCUMSTANCE, do I take a RB at 7, in this draft. REGARDLESS of who the RB is.


This is honestly the only reasonable scenario where I'm upset as we head into the home stretch. I'll be thrilled with Chubb or Ward or a trade back. I'll be content with Nelson or Fitz. I'll keep an open mind on James, just because he MIGHT be a transcendent talent (same reason I drafted him for "my" Browns.) But a running back at #7 would be dumb for most of the same reasons a kicker in the 2nd was dumb. Especially in a draft that'll probably produce 6-10 good ones.

That said, I'm totally expecting it.
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby DreadNaught » Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:11 am

This is such an unpredictable draft. Other that atleast 3 QBs going early I don't know who is going where.

I'm coming back full circle with Fitzpatrick for the Bucs. He's at #4 for me after spending some time the past few weeks entertaining Ward.

I still have Chubb - Nelson/Barkley in front as my preferences. But Fitz would be a great addition to our secondary. Put him at CB or at Safety and the entire defensive backfield is better, which imo is the worst position group on the roster currently.

I had some hesitation about Fitz b/c if he's not a CB in the than he's very similar to the type of FS we already have in Justin Evans. But with the way the NFL is these days with contact rules I think having two ultra athletic Safeties who can also tackle in the box could provide a huge schematic advantage. He and Justin Evans could both cover 1v1 at times allowing a much mroe aggressive front 7. Plus with the amount of space those guys can cover in the back-end it would mean that much less our CBs would have to.

Excited for the draft. Bucs are going to get a really good prospect at 7 if we stick and pick so I'm not going to disappointed regardless of who we draft.
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby Rocker » Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:14 am

BuT We NeEd To DrAfT A GaMe ChAnGiNg RuNnInG BaCk At SeVeN
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby Deuce » Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:46 am

Barkley is arguably the best prospect in this draft. Passing on him because of position, when picking at #7, would be foolish.

I feel like the whole rbf thing has turned people off to him unnecessarily.
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby Super K » Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:54 am

Deuce wrote:Barkley is arguably the best prospect in this draft. Passing on him because of position, when picking at #7, would be foolish.

I feel like the whole rbf thing has turned people off to him unnecessarily.


Agreed...

If he is sitting there at #7 and both Chubb and Nelson are gone AND we can't get a kings ransom to move back, it's a no-brainer to select him...
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby uscbucsfan » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:02 am

Deuce wrote:Barkley is arguably the best prospect in this draft. Passing on him because of position, when picking at #7, would be foolish.

I feel like the whole rbf thing has turned people off to him unnecessarily.


Some believe that his college production/tape show that he's not an every down bell cow type back. He's closer to Kamara/Reggie Bush/ McCaffrey than ADP or Gurley. As I said, I hope that Koetter would be able to use him properly, because in college he was not the type of back to carry a team between the tackles. He needed space to succeed.

Some don't believe that any RB should be picked with a high pick citing all of the successes in later rounds, but if you believe a player is an absolute game changer, especially at a position of need, you take them IMO.

I rag on Barkley a lot, but just because I don't think he's on the level that others do historically. I still have him in my top 5 after Chubb, Nelson, Fitz, and Ward and really he's right there with Ward for me.
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby MJW » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:13 am

uscbucsfan wrote:
Deuce wrote:Barkley is arguably the best prospect in this draft. Passing on him because of position, when picking at #7, would be foolish.

I feel like the whole rbf thing has turned people off to him unnecessarily.


Some believe that his college production/tape show that he's not an every down bell cow type back. He's closer to Kamara/Reggie Bush/ McCaffrey than ADP or Gurley.


In other words, a part time, situational player who'll need a helper to do the things he can't. Exactly what you want with the #7 pick when you have a half-dozen starting jobs up for grabs.
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby Noles1724 » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:21 am

MJW wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:
Some believe that his college production/tape show that he's not an every down bell cow type back. He's closer to Kamara/Reggie Bush/ McCaffrey than ADP or Gurley.


In other words, a part time, situational player who'll need a helper to do the things he can't. Exactly what you want with the #7 pick when you have a half-dozen starting jobs up for grabs.


you're really taking this whole debbie downer thing all the way uh?

not sure what happened but lately you've done nothing but bitch and moan about everything. you're becoming the buczone super villain.. Bootz mixed with AO mixed with McIrish and a sprinkle of mdb.
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby MJW » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:24 am

Noles1724 wrote:
MJW wrote:
In other words, a part time, situational player who'll need a helper to do the things he can't. Exactly what you want with the #7 pick when you have a half-dozen starting jobs up for grabs.


you're really taking this whole debbie downer thing all the way uh?

not sure what happened but lately you've done nothing but bitch and moan about everything. you're becoming the buczone super villain.. Bootz mixed with AO mixed with McIrish and a sprinkle of mdb.


If we'd just drafted him, you'd have a point. We haven't. This is why I don't want to. You have no point.
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby DreadNaught » Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:04 am

uscbucsfan wrote:
Deuce wrote:Barkley is arguably the best prospect in this draft. Passing on him because of position, when picking at #7, would be foolish.

I feel like the whole rbf thing has turned people off to him unnecessarily.


Some believe that his college production/tape show that he's not an every down bell cow type back. He's closer to Kamara/Reggie Bush/ McCaffrey than ADP or Gurley. As I said, I hope that Koetter would be able to use him properly, because in college he was not the type of back to carry a team between the tackles. He needed space to succeed.

Some don't believe that any RB should be picked with a high pick citing all of the successes in later rounds, but if you believe a player is an absolute game changer, especially at a position of need, you take them IMO.

I rag on Barkley a lot, but just because I don't think he's on the level that others do historically. I still have him in my top 5 after Chubb, Nelson, Fitz, and Ward and really he's right there with Ward for me.


Not direct to you, but I don't buy into the criticism on Barkley that he "can't" run between the tackles or be an everytown RB. He's 230lbs, which is significant imo b/c all those guys (Kamara, Bush, McCaffrey) are closer to 200-210lbs.

I saw a film room session on YT for Barkley that compared him to Ladanian Tomlinson in terms of running style. Except Barkley is both bigger and faster. I hadn't thought if that comparison, but the breakdown was excellent imo.

Imo calling Barkley a situational RB is way underselling his talent and value. He's so talented for his size comparisons are tough, but isn't it that way with every great RB to some degree? We never saw a RB like LT, Faulk, AP, Barry until they came along. Barkley is be great in his own way.
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby MJW » Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:10 am

DreadNaught wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:
Some believe that his college production/tape show that he's not an every down bell cow type back. He's closer to Kamara/Reggie Bush/ McCaffrey than ADP or Gurley. As I said, I hope that Koetter would be able to use him properly, because in college he was not the type of back to carry a team between the tackles. He needed space to succeed.

Some don't believe that any RB should be picked with a high pick citing all of the successes in later rounds, but if you believe a player is an absolute game changer, especially at a position of need, you take them IMO.

I rag on Barkley a lot, but just because I don't think he's on the level that others do historically. I still have him in my top 5 after Chubb, Nelson, Fitz, and Ward and really he's right there with Ward for me.


Not direct to you, but I don't buy into the criticism on Barkley that he "can't" run between the tackles or be an everytown RB. He's 230lbs, which is significant imo b/c all those guys (Kamara, Bush, McCaffrey) are closer to 200-210lbs.

I saw a film room session on YT for Barkley that compared him to Ladanian Tomlinson in terms of running style. Except Barkley is both bigger and faster. I hadn't thought if that comparison, but the breakdown was excellent imo.

Imo calling Barkley a situational RB is way underselling his talent and value. He's so talented for his size comparisons are tough, but isn't it that way with every great RB to some degree? We never saw a RB like LT, Faulk, AP, Barry until they came along. Barkley is be great in his own way.


He has the physical skills to play the game however he wants to. I don't think that's in question. None of the criticisms of him have involved him NOT having the tools. But to this point, the way he's chosen to play has involved way too much bouncing outside, ignoring the holes/lanes/highways his blockers have given him, and avoiding contact at the POA when tough yards were called for. That's how he's chosen to play the game far too often during his college career.

If it's 3rd and 3 for us in the 4th quarter, I don't want him in the game for us based on his body of work in college. That's why, "RB Draft Philosophies" notwithstanding, I don't want him at #7.
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby Doctor » Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:59 am

And you're insane if that nit picky reason is what's stopping you from getting one of the greatest RB prospects of all time.
You guys must have battered wives syndrome or something. We have averaged less than 4 yards per attempt in four out of the last five seasons and you guys are perfectly fine with it. Give me a break.
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby DreadNaught » Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:48 pm

Doctor wrote:And you're insane if that nit picky reason is what's stopping you from getting one of the greatest RB prospects of all time.
You guys must have battered wives syndrome or something. We have averaged less than 4 yards per attempt in four out of the last five seasons and you guys are perfectly fine with it. Give me a break.


We need a 4th DE pretty bad though.
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby Rocker » Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:08 pm

At some point, the blame for our rushing woes should stop being laid at the feet of one guy in the backfield, and (properly) placed at the feet of the five men in front of him.
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby Nano » Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:43 pm

Rocker wrote:At some point, the blame for our rushing woes should stop being laid at the feet of one guy in the backfield, and (properly) placed at the feet of the five men in front of him.

It's equal blame pretty much. Our oline completely sucks(or did) at run blocking, and none of the RBs on this team would be on an NFL roster if we weren't so ****ing desperate. Barber would be a preseason camp body at best on the majority of other teams(Despite this board overrating him), and Quizz should've been out of the league years ago. Never even heard of the 3rd guy on our roster. At the same time, we need the Oline(especially our guards) to not get pushed around every single play. Personally, I'm hoping that we have an addition by subtraction where our line gets better with Marpet playing guard again and not having Pamphile out there embarrassing himself every play. If we manage to draft Nelson, that would be even better as we could move on from the inconsistent Sweezy. Our running game would still be craptastic though as we'd have nobody to actually run the ball.
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby Nano » Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:53 pm

Since AO bumped this thread, Derwin James has taken the lead in the poll(it was Denzel Ward).
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby Doctor » Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:34 pm

Nano wrote:
Rocker wrote:At some point, the blame for our rushing woes should stop being laid at the feet of one guy in the backfield, and (properly) placed at the feet of the five men in front of him.

It's equal blame pretty much. Our oline completely sucks(or did) at run blocking, and none of the RBs on this team would be on an NFL roster if we weren't so ****ing desperate. Barber would be a preseason camp body at best on the majority of other teams(Despite this board overrating him), and Quizz should've been out of the league years ago. Never even heard of the 3rd guy on our roster. At the same time, we need the Oline(especially our guards) to not get pushed around every single play. Personally, I'm hoping that we have an addition by subtraction where our line gets better with Marpet playing guard again and not having Pamphile out there embarrassing himself every play. If we manage to draft Nelson, that would be even better as we could move on from the inconsistent Sweezy. Our running game would still be craptastic though as we'd have nobody to actually run the ball.


This is another myth. Our OL ranked out mid pack average. And that was with a LOT of back up playing time. We just upgraded two positions, including our weakest link. I wonder if it's time the Browns stop blaming QB and start looking at the OL or the guys catching the ball instead. I mean clearly ALL those QBs couldn't have been bad right??

And even if you want to blame the OL, how is having LESS talented RBs running behind this same line a better solution?
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby Rocker » Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:15 pm

Ignoring your apples and oranges comparison:
Facts don’t back up your conclusion, buddy. At all.
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby Doctor » Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:58 am

Except they do.
https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

We're literally middle of the pack any way you slice it. And I dare you to say it's because we have Barry Sanders back there making up for bad OL play.
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby terrytate » Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:03 am

We are drafting at least one back this year, at a minimum. MJW is right in that Barkey does sometime try to bounce runs and take losses. That is largely because good teams were routinely getting hands on him in the backfield and he was always trying to make something from both nothing. There is plenty of film of him blasting through tight creases right between the tackles. He might need a bit of coaching to break the one bad college habit he has, but I am not to concerned. He'd still be the third of the big three on my board even though he would likely have the most immediate impact of any player in the draft.

Should all of the big three br gone, I am still on the James wagon.i would prefer to get a ransom for the pick, but if forced to stay at 7 James is the guy. We need a starting safety just as much as corner and James is the best DB in this draft.
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby Doctor » Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:06 am

I'm not concerned with that bounce to the outside stuff. The same thing was said about LT, who Barkley actually reminds me a lot of.
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