MB's "Minkah at 7" Mock Draft

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Re: MB's "Minkah at 7" Mock Draft

Postby DreadNaught » Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:34 am

Bootz2004 wrote:I just want to know when the big 4 became the big 3. Why was Minkah kicked out of the band? Or is he going solo?


While I believe you an I (maybe some others) are of the opinion Minkah is and should be a boundary CB in the NFL there is a prevailing narrative that is not what he will be in the NFL. IF that is the case that it hurts his draft value.

They talked about this the other night on Path to the Draft regarding how Minkah's versatility in college is actually hurting his draft stock since he doesn't have a defined role. Something along the lines of 'he does alot well, but what is he great at'? Alos 'If he's a really a Safety/NB is that worth a top 10 pick'?

It's like we discussed a few weeks ago regarding Minkah, if a team is drafting him to play CB than he should be in that big 4. Imo that is what he should be and he has the measurables and tape. But my/our opinion is in the minority it would seem and if teams view him as a Safety/NB he's not in that top tier of prospects.
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Re: MB's "Minkah at 7" Mock Draft

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:50 am

DreadNaught wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:I just want to know when the big 4 became the big 3. Why was Minkah kicked out of the band? Or is he going solo?


While I believe you an I (maybe some others) are of the opinion Minkah is and should be a boundary CB in the NFL there is a prevailing narrative that is not what he will be in the NFL. IF that is the case that it hurts his draft value.

They talked about this the other night on Path to the Draft regarding how Minkah's versatility in college is actually hurting his draft stock since he doesn't have a defined role. Something along the lines of 'he does alot well, but what is he great at'? Alos 'If he's a really a Safety/NB is that worth a top 10 pick'?

It's like we discussed a few weeks ago regarding Minkah, if a team is drafting him to play CB than he should be in that big 4. Imo that is what he should be and he has the measurables and tape. But my/our opinion is in the minority it would seem and if teams view him as a Safety/NB he's not in that top tier of prospects.

Keep in mind they said the same thing about Ramsey.
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Re: MB's "Minkah at 7" Mock Draft

Postby real bucs fan » Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:52 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
While I believe you an I (maybe some others) are of the opinion Minkah is and should be a boundary CB in the NFL there is a prevailing narrative that is not what he will be in the NFL. IF that is the case that it hurts his draft value.

They talked about this the other night on Path to the Draft regarding how Minkah's versatility in college is actually hurting his draft stock since he doesn't have a defined role. Something along the lines of 'he does alot well, but what is he great at'? Alos 'If he's a really a Safety/NB is that worth a top 10 pick'?

It's like we discussed a few weeks ago regarding Minkah, if a team is drafting him to play CB than he should be in that big 4. Imo that is what he should be and he has the measurables and tape. But my/our opinion is in the minority it would seem and if teams view him as a Safety/NB he's not in that top tier of prospects.

Keep in mind they said the same thing about Ramsey.

And then Ramsey demonstarted elite CB traits at the combine... Minkah didn't even work out with the CBs...
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Re: MB's "Minkah at 7" Mock Draft

Postby Jason Bourne » Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:13 pm

Honestly watching Minkah vs Clemson , he didn’t play well imo, missed tackles , whiffed on a sack ... safety or a Cb ? I just don’t see the hype
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Re: MB's "Minkah at 7" Mock Draft

Postby Bootz2004 » Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:07 pm

Why is it commonplace for people to watch 1 game on a prospect and then formulate a conclusion?
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Re: MB's "Minkah at 7" Mock Draft

Postby Jason Bourne » Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:17 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:Why is it commonplace for people to watch 1 game on a prospect and then formulate a conclusion?


Watched a lot of Bama , just commented on 1 game ..relax

Riddle me this .... Is Minkah a CB or a safety ?
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Re: MB's "Minkah at 7" Mock Draft

Postby Cheb » Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:24 pm

Jason Bourne wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:Why is it commonplace for people to watch 1 game on a prospect and then formulate a conclusion?


Watched a lot of Bama , just commented on 1 game ..relax

Riddle me this .... Is Minkah a CB or a safety ?


I think he has safety written all over him, personally.
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Re: MB's "Minkah at 7" Mock Draft

Postby Jason Bourne » Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:35 pm

Cheb wrote:
Jason Bourne wrote:
Watched a lot of Bama , just commented on 1 game ..relax

Riddle me this .... Is Minkah a CB or a safety ?


I think he has safety written all over him, personally.



Yep, I know he didn't have a great combine but 4.46 in the 40 huge difference to Wards time 4.32 . Coach Meyer was commenting on how fast Ward is which is saying a lot considering a lot the players Meyer has had.
Minkah is a good player imo just not top 5 or 7 in the draft. I would rather take James if I had too
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Re: MB's "Minkah at 7" Mock Draft

Postby real bucs fan » Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:10 pm

James, Ward, and Minkah are all pretty close, but the presence of Justin Evans has Minkah the least valuable of those 3 for the Bucs IMO. And ya, I think he's a safety.
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Re: MB's "Minkah at 7" Mock Draft

Postby MJW » Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:55 pm

real bucs fan wrote:James, Ward, and Minkah are all pretty close, but the presence of Justin Evans has Minkah the least valuable of those 3 for the Bucs IMO. And ya, I think he's a safety.


Evans being here likely matters, and his style is pretty similar to Fitz's. I think the Bucs would look for a Kam Chancellor type to compliment him, not another rangy centerfielder. A hitter.

IMHO Ward is by far the most valuable of the three here in Tampa. But I think they'd go with James before Fitzpatrick for these reasons.
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Re: MB's "Minkah at 7" Mock Draft

Postby Doctor » Thu Mar 29, 2018 3:47 pm

Deuce wrote:So...how do we end up with Minkah? Do 4 QB's not go before us or do we pass on one of Barkley, Nelson, or Chubb?

These team-specific mocks leave more questions than answers. No offense MB, just a generalized comment.

Quite possibly. Could very well be that those three are off the board. Could be OBP passes on one of them for Fitz instead and you are very upset about it. Despite what some fans things the FO doesn't actually read our posts. Play it however you like.


I like the back to back RBs, and I could even see it happening. It's clearly a position we are trying to address and it's a talented one in the draft. I wouldn't be upset at all double dipping on it in day 3.
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Re: MB's "Minkah at 7" Mock Draft

Postby Doctor » Thu Mar 29, 2018 3:59 pm

Cheb wrote:
Jason Bourne wrote:
Watched a lot of Bama , just commented on 1 game ..relax

Riddle me this .... Is Minkah a CB or a safety ?


I think he has safety written all over him, personally.

I agree, but I also thought that of Ramsey. Both I think would make better safeties but would still be very good CBs- which is a harder position to fill and at a much higher premium.



MJW wrote:
real bucs fan wrote:James, Ward, and Minkah are all pretty close, but the presence of Justin Evans has Minkah the least valuable of those 3 for the Bucs IMO. And ya, I think he's a safety.


Evans being here likely matters, and his style is pretty similar to Fitz's. I think the Bucs would look for a Kam Chancellor type to compliment him, not another rangy centerfielder. A hitter.

IMHO Ward is by far the most valuable of the three here in Tampa. But I think they'd go with James before Fitzpatrick for these reasons.


So who is not the hitter here, Fitz or Evans? Because they are both hitters. And they are both rangy safeties. And that's not a bad thing. Not only that, Mike Smith emphasizes safeties that can do it all, which both of them can do. You never know who is the single high and who is coming in on a blitz because they both can do both well. I don't know why you would want a LESS talented player just so that way it would clearly define which safety would have which responsibilities instead of having two versatile players that can do it all.
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Re: MB's "Minkah at 7" Mock Draft

Postby DreadNaught » Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:02 pm

Jason Bourne wrote:
Cheb wrote:
I think he has safety written all over him, personally.



Yep, I know he didn't have a great combine but 4.46 in the 40 huge difference to Wards time 4.32 . Coach Meyer was commenting on how fast Ward is which is saying a lot considering a lot the players Meyer has had.
Minkah is a good player imo just not top 5 or 7 in the draft. I would rather take James if I had too


Most CB's (humans for that matter) don't run 4.32. Denzel Ward is an exceptional athlete. But Jalen Ramsey ran 4.41 and Fitz wasn't much different. Fitz reportedly ran 4.39 for NFL scouts last summer before his final season at Bama.

Fitz's combine time of 4.46 is still fast and certainly checks the box for a CB. Also, Fitz would be a bigger than average CB.
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Re: MB's "Minkah at 7" Mock Draft

Postby real bucs fan » Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:05 pm

The issue with Fitz at CB isn't his speed, it's his agility and how he would be able to stick with NFL WRs
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Re: MB's "Minkah at 7" Mock Draft

Postby DreadNaught » Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:11 pm

real bucs fan wrote:The issue with Fitz at CB isn't his speed, it's his agility and how he would be able to stick with NFL WRs

Perhaps. I just think Fitz is more valuable as a CB than a Safety. Honey Badger gets kudos for being a great Safety because he can play CB (nickel) and Fitz is bigger, faster, and quicker than Honey Badger.

Idc where Fitz is drafted and one of my 'bold predictions' is that he'll fall out of the top 10, but imo whoever takes him should make sure he's not an NFL CB before just assuming he isn't. I'd let the kid fail at CB before restricting his potential value at Safety.
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Re: MB's "Minkah at 7" Mock Draft

Postby Doctor » Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:12 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
Jason Bourne wrote:

Yep, I know he didn't have a great combine but 4.46 in the 40 huge difference to Wards time 4.32 . Coach Meyer was commenting on how fast Ward is which is saying a lot considering a lot the players Meyer has had.
Minkah is a good player imo just not top 5 or 7 in the draft. I would rather take James if I had too


Most CB's (humans for that matter) don't run 4.32. Denzel Ward is an exceptional athlete. But Jalen Ramsey ran 4.41 and Fitz wasn't much different. Fitz reportedly ran 4.39 for NFL scouts last summer before his final season at Bama.

Fitz's combine time of 4.46 is still fast and certainly checks the box for a CB. Also, Fitz would be a bigger than average CB.

Yeah, from a purely athletic standpoint I don't see how anyone would trade 3 inches and 20lbs for a guy that's maybe a little faster. Even if he plays CB I'd still take Fitz>Ward all day. Any advantages Ward has over Fitz can be eliminated with coaching. You can't coach Ward to grow 3 inches, nor would you want him to play at 200+ lbs.
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Re: MB's "Minkah at 7" Mock Draft

Postby terrytate » Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:30 pm

Doctor wrote:Yeah, from a purely athletic standpoint I don't see how anyone would trade 2 inches and 15lbs for a guy that's maybe a little faster (.01 second). Even if he plays CB I'd still take James>Fitz all day. Any advantages Fitz has over James can be eliminated with coaching. You can't coach Fitz to grow 3 inches, nor would you want him to play at 220+ lbs.



Fixed it for you.

I say this because Fitz and James are both going to be safeties. Both can play corner but they will make their living at safety. If you want a pure corner, you take Ward. His size isn't that big of an issue. Sure, there are some big receivers out there but many of the best guys now are smaller men. Antonio Bryant and OBJ are considered 2 of the 3 best WR's in the game. As of right now, the Panthers and Saints are starting Russell Shepard and Ted Ginn Jr. There are plenty of guys who will have more trouble with the speed and stickiness of Ward than the height of Minkah/James.
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Re: MB's "Minkah at 7" Mock Draft

Postby Naismith » Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:40 pm

I believe Stroud said the Bucs view Minkah as a safety.
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Re: MB's "Minkah at 7" Mock Draft

Postby real bucs fan » Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:42 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
real bucs fan wrote:The issue with Fitz at CB isn't his speed, it's his agility and how he would be able to stick with NFL WRs

Perhaps. I just think Fitz is more valuable as a CB than a Safety. Honey Badger gets kudos for being a great Safety because he can play CB (nickel) and Fitz is bigger, faster, and quicker than Honey Badger.

Idc where Fitz is drafted and one of my 'bold predictions' is that he'll fall out of the top 10, but imo whoever takes him should make sure he's not an NFL CB before just assuming he isn't. I'd let the kid fail at CB before restricting his potential value at Safety.

Well CBs are more valuable than safety's... but I think Fitz the player is better suited for safety. Of course who knows right now for sure, but I'd be very surprised if the team that drafts him tries and make him a CB.
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Re: MB's "Minkah at 7" Mock Draft

Postby MJW » Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:32 pm

Doctor wrote:
Cheb wrote:
I think he has safety written all over him, personally.

I agree, but I also thought that of Ramsey. Both I think would make better safeties but would still be very good CBs- which is a harder position to fill and at a much higher premium.



MJW wrote:
Evans being here likely matters, and his style is pretty similar to Fitz's. I think the Bucs would look for a Kam Chancellor type to compliment him, not another rangy centerfielder. A hitter.

IMHO Ward is by far the most valuable of the three here in Tampa. But I think they'd go with James before Fitzpatrick for these reasons.


So who is not the hitter here, Fitz or Evans? Because they are both hitters. And they are both rangy safeties. And that's not a bad thing. Not only that, Mike Smith emphasizes safeties that can do it all, which both of them can do. You never know who is the single high and who is coming in on a blitz because they both can do both well. I don't know why you would want a LESS talented player just so that way it would clearly define which safety would have which responsibilities instead of having two versatile players that can do it all.


James is a much bigger hitter, at least based on what I've seen. Fitz is a good tackler and he does have some nice highlights in that regard. He is absolutely the rangier of the two, and more natural in coverage. There's a reason he might move to corner, but James wouldn't be considered as such.

I think we're talking about Earl Thomas versus Kam Chancellor here. It's not a matter of "less talent," it's a matter of how your players compliment each other. If building a squad was simply a matter of grading players, any kid with Madden could do it. The Pats have been good for this long because players come in based on their abilities to fill certain roles and responsibilities well, not because they look at raw talent. Besides, the question the Bucs should ask themselves is not, "Who's got more talent?" but "Who are each of these players to the Buccaneers?"

We have a centerfielder in Evans. Rangy and athletic as heck. The guy who helps the team the most next to him is the guy who does the things well that Evans isn't going to be doing much. In this case, coming up as a 4th linebacker, and patrolling the underneath routes. IMHO that's James.

That said, I'm not much of a James fan. I'm just answering the question.
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Re: MB's "Minkah at 7" Mock Draft

Postby Alpha » Fri Mar 30, 2018 1:00 am

I'm going to have an airing of grievances...right the **** now:

Koetter (or Licht...I forget who)...has stated that Marpet is moving to LG.

This tells all of us that, (1) We are STILL committed to Sweezy at RG...when he should be ****ing CUT and (2) Q. Nelson will NOT be the pick...even if he is available. Seeing that he is an ACTUAL LG.

WHAT THE ACTUAL ****!?

God help this board if we pass on Nelson (assuming he's available), in order to reach for a project like D. James. I will LITERALLY shut this board the **** DOWN.

Please Lord...tell me we aren't this stupid...
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Re: MB's "Minkah at 7" Mock Draft

Postby terrytate » Fri Mar 30, 2018 1:32 am

Alpha wrote:I'm going to have an airing of grievances...right the **** now:

Koetter (or Licht...I forget who)...has stated that Marpet is moving to LG.

This tells all of us that, (1) We are STILL committed to Sweezy at RG...when he should be ****ing CUT and (2) Q. Nelson will NOT be the pick...even if he is available. Seeing that he is an ACTUAL LG.

WHAT THE ACTUAL ****!?

God help this board if we pass on Nelson (assuming he's available), in order to reach for a project like D. James. I will LITERALLY shut this board the **** DOWN.

Please Lord...tell me we aren't this stupid...



I'd be salty too. Moreso because Sweezy still isn't medically cleared, according to Keotter and Licht.

In the long interview at the owners meeting, Licht said he loves a lot of the linemen at the top of the draft without specifying a side of the ball. I am hoping that means he loves Nelson as much as I do, although it could just be smoke and he has one guy he covets.

As to Derwin James being a project, he'd be our starting strong safety on opening day and will likely play pretty well. That's not a project, that's an instant starter that just needs some refinement. Keith Tandy was a project.
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Re: MB's "Minkah at 7" Mock Draft

Postby Alpha » Fri Mar 30, 2018 1:44 am

terrytate wrote:
Alpha wrote:I'm going to have an airing of grievances...right the **** now:

Koetter (or Licht...I forget who)...has stated that Marpet is moving to LG.

This tells all of us that, (1) We are STILL committed to Sweezy at RG...when he should be ****ing CUT and (2) Q. Nelson will NOT be the pick...even if he is available. Seeing that he is an ACTUAL LG.

WHAT THE ACTUAL ****!?

God help this board if we pass on Nelson (assuming he's available), in order to reach for a project like D. James. I will LITERALLY shut this board the **** DOWN.

Please Lord...tell me we aren't this stupid...


Keith Tandy was a project.


No ****, Sam Spade. Tandy was a 3rd or 4th rounder (if I remember correctly). Those guys are EXPECTED to be "projects".

Derwin James is a REACH at #7. He's a guy who hasn't produced to his measurables...and IS a "project". A guy who we HOPE can be coached up. At least, Fitzpatrick has produced on the college level. IF Nelson is there...and we pass for a guy like James (or that DE out of UTSA that everyone seems to have a hard on over)...I'll have a ****ing anyerism.
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Re: MB's "Minkah at 7" Mock Draft

Postby theBKwhopper » Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:43 am

Alpha wrote:I'm going to have an airing of grievances...right the **** now:

Koetter (or Licht...I forget who)...has stated that Marpet is moving to LG.

This tells all of us that, (1) We are STILL committed to Sweezy at RG...when he should be ****ing CUT and (2) Q. Nelson will NOT be the pick...even if he is available. Seeing that he is an ACTUAL LG.

WHAT THE ACTUAL ****!?

God help this board if we pass on Nelson (assuming he's available), in order to reach for a project like D. James. I will LITERALLY shut this board the **** DOWN.

Please Lord...tell me we aren't this stupid...

Licht and Koetter seemed pretty open about nothing being set in stone before the draft. Specifically on the lines and at RB. IF Nelson is there, I have feeling we'll jump all over him. We'll move Marpet accordingly.

And, Tandy was a sixth round pick. He was the definition of a project. James will be completely different. I haven't even studied him that much and I can already see the difference between the two. James is an all-star, Tandy is a body.
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Re: MB's "Minkah at 7" Mock Draft

Postby MJW » Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:10 am

theBKwhopper wrote:
Alpha wrote:I'm going to have an airing of grievances...right the **** now:

Koetter (or Licht...I forget who)...has stated that Marpet is moving to LG.

This tells all of us that, (1) We are STILL committed to Sweezy at RG...when he should be ****ing CUT and (2) Q. Nelson will NOT be the pick...even if he is available. Seeing that he is an ACTUAL LG.

WHAT THE ACTUAL ****!?

God help this board if we pass on Nelson (assuming he's available), in order to reach for a project like D. James. I will LITERALLY shut this board the **** DOWN.

Please Lord...tell me we aren't this stupid...

Licht and Koetter seemed pretty open about nothing being set in stone before the draft. Specifically on the lines and at RB. IF Nelson is there, I have feeling we'll jump all over him. We'll move Marpet accordingly.

And, Tandy was a sixth round pick. He was the definition of a project. James will be completely different. I haven't even studied him that much and I can already see the difference between the two. James is an all-star, Tandy is a body.


I wouldn't take anything any team says pre-draft too seriously. If anything, I'd be looking at the guys/positions that are being discussed the least. I remember Jeff Fisher at this meeting in 2016 trying to convince people he traded up to #1 for defense.

James hype to this point exceeds James. Five star recruit, body by Zeus, highlight reel friendly. But where was the production? 3 interceptions and 1 forced fumble and in 26 career games. 4.5 sacks as a freshman, but only 1 the rest of his career. Lotta tackles, but a safety at #7 should provide splash plays, too.

Does anybody remember Taylor Mays? He was a similar guy. Not as athletic. Everyone thought the Seahawks would take him in the top half of the first round, because he played for Pete Carroll. He ended up falling to the Bengals in the 2nd round, and he busted. He was a very similar prospect. 6'3, around 220. 4.43 speed. Five star recruit. But you watched him at USC, and he didn't make many plays. Made a lot of tackles. But 5 picks in 51 games, no sacks, no forced fumbles. Then he got to the NFL. 80 games, no interceptions, 1 sack, 1 forced fumble, out of the league.

James is a better prospect than Mays. But Mays should serve as a cautionary tale for this kind of safety. I worry a lot about linebackers and safeties who don't provide much in the way of big plays in college. Those guys should be around the ball if they're elite talents - picking off passes, forcing and recovering fumbles, etc. Scheme is relevant, of course. But when you look at the big play safeties and linebackers in the NFL, they were almost always big play college players, too.

Perfect example - Earl Thomas. 17 games at Texas. 7.5 TFL, 10 interceptions.
Eric Berry. 39 games at UT. 17.5 TFL, 14 Interceptions.

ETC.

Very few great NFL safeties who didn't produce splash plays in college.
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Re: MB's "Minkah at 7" Mock Draft

Postby terrytate » Fri Mar 30, 2018 8:33 pm

Alpha wrote:
terrytate wrote:
Keith Tandy was a project.


No ****, Sam Spade. Tandy was a 3rd or 4th rounder (if I remember correctly). Those guys are EXPECTED to be "projects".

Derwin James is a REACH at #7. He's a guy who hasn't produced to his measurables...and IS a "project". A guy who we HOPE can be coached up. At least, Fitzpatrick has produced on the college level. IF Nelson is there...and we pass for a guy like James (or that DE out of UTSA that everyone seems to have a hard on over)...I'll have a ****ing anyerism.



If Keith Tandy was too obvious an answer, it's because I was dumbing it down for someone who didn't know what they are talking about. Derwin James is one of the 5 best players in this draft according to nearly everyone. He's a day one starter for most teams in this league.

As to Fitz producing more than James, that's flat out wrong. In 16 fewer games, James has the more total tackles, sacks, forced fumbles and fumble recoveries. The only thing he's behind on is picks. Part of that is playing 26 college games vs 42, the other is that there was no one on the FSU D to force teams to challenge James.
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Re: MB's "Minkah at 7" Mock Draft

Postby Doctor » Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:55 am

Even if one did argue that Ward was a better CB than Fitz today, so what? FOs don't draft like they are playing tomorrow, they see players like clay not finished pots. And if I'm a coach I'd much rather mold and coach Fitz clay than Ward clay and it's not even close.
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Re: MB's "Minkah at 7" Mock Draft

Postby terrytate » Sun Apr 01, 2018 2:09 am

Doctor wrote:Even if one did argue that Ward was a better CB than Fitz today, so what? FOs don't draft like they are playing tomorrow, they see players like clay not finished pots. And if I'm a coach I'd much rather mold and coach Fitz clay than Ward clay and it's not even close.



Following this logic, I'd rather draft James clay than Fitz clay. Still, no matter how much you coach Fitz, or even James, they aren't going to be as sticky as Ward. You can't coach speed.
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Re: MB's "Minkah at 7" Mock Draft

Postby Naismith » Sun Apr 01, 2018 2:19 am

I knew speed coaches were shysters!
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Re: MB's "Minkah at 7" Mock Draft

Postby LavonteDavid54 » Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:14 pm

I'd be pretty happy with this. One of the two S at 7 and Wynn at 2 with Bo and Facysin later , definitely .Be stoked if rounds 1-2 went like that. Although I've swayed back n forth with Minkah n Derwin.
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