Fitz or Nelson?

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Fitz or Nelson

Poll ended at Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:45 pm

Fitz
8
33%
Nelson
16
67%
 
Total votes : 24

Re: Fitz or Nelson?

Postby MJW » Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:09 am

terrytate wrote:
MJW wrote:
Our failure to do so has doomed this franchise for the last 15 years. That isn't to say we've never TRIED. Raheemenick drafted Roy Miller in the 3rd, then the next year McCoy and Price in the 1st and 2nd, then the neck year Clay and Bowers in the 1st and 2nd. If 4 of those guys work out instead of 1, the last eight years is much different.



Same with the Oline. We lost Joseph and Sears to injury, Penn to indifference and we sign Carl Nicks and lose him to MRSA. The other attempts to add Oline in FA were unmitigated disasters too. The jury is still out on D Smith and Marpet looks like a winner, so we are what, 1-10 or so on getting offensive linemen in the last decade?


I don't think this is coincidence for our continued sucking:

2012: No offensive or defensive linemen selected.
2013: No offensive linemen selected; no defensive linemen selected before the 4th round.
2014: No defensive linemen selected; no offensive linemen selected before the 5th round
2015: Marpet And Donovan Smith
2016: Noah Spence, who hasn't done anything yet, and Caleb Benenoch late
2017: No offensive linemen. No defensive linemen until the 7th round.

That is to say that over the last SIX drafts, we've drafted 2 offensive lineman before the 4th round, and 1 defensive lineman before the 4th round.

And we wonder why we can't run the ball or stop the run or rush the passer? Big ****ing mystery.

And that's why whenever anyone says "Safety" or "Running Back" to me, I get queasy.
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Re: Fitz or Nelson?

Postby MJW » Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:10 am

And yes, despite that I would take Fitz over Nelson, but mainly because I'm confident we can get 90% of Nelson in the 2nd round in the form of Will Hernandez.
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Re: Fitz or Nelson?

Postby mdb1958 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:31 am

MJW wrote:
terrytate wrote:

Same with the Oline. We lost Joseph and Sears to injury, Penn to indifference and we sign Carl Nicks and lose him to MRSA. The other attempts to add Oline in FA were unmitigated disasters too. The jury is still out on D Smith and Marpet looks like a winner, so we are what, 1-10 or so on getting offensive linemen in the last decade?


I don't think this is coincidence for our continued sucking:

2012: No offensive or defensive linemen selected.
2013: No offensive linemen selected; no defensive linemen selected before the 4th round.
2014: No defensive linemen selected; no offensive linemen selected before the 5th round
2015: Marpet And Donovan Smith
2016: Noah Spence, who hasn't done anything yet, and Caleb Benenoch late
2017: No offensive linemen. No defensive linemen until the 7th round.

That is to say that over the last SIX drafts, we've drafted 2 offensive lineman before the 4th round, and 1 defensive lineman before the 4th round.

And we wonder why we can't run the ball or stop the run or rush the passer? Big ****ing mystery.

And that's why whenever anyone says "Safety" or "Running Back" to me, I get queasy.



We are asking who everyone would want between these two but it doesnt eliminate other approaches to our draft. Just curious MJW, after you pick a defensive back and a guard who would you like to target after that?

If you pass on defensive end or tackle in the first two rounds is the cupboard bare now, which makes it easier to just look for a running back to help Winston move into a more game manager role to limit Winstons natural miscues that happen while he is trying to be an elite franchise quarterback.

You know, more weapons for Winston. I think our offense is way ahead of our defense, we have not even begun to add for improvement or eventual replacement of anybody. It looks like there is absolutely no plan in place.
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Re: Fitz or Nelson?

Postby MJW » Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:56 am

mdb1958 wrote:
MJW wrote:
I don't think this is coincidence for our continued sucking:

2012: No offensive or defensive linemen selected.
2013: No offensive linemen selected; no defensive linemen selected before the 4th round.
2014: No defensive linemen selected; no offensive linemen selected before the 5th round
2015: Marpet And Donovan Smith
2016: Noah Spence, who hasn't done anything yet, and Caleb Benenoch late
2017: No offensive linemen. No defensive linemen until the 7th round.

That is to say that over the last SIX drafts, we've drafted 2 offensive lineman before the 4th round, and 1 defensive lineman before the 4th round.

And we wonder why we can't run the ball or stop the run or rush the passer? Big ****ing mystery.

And that's why whenever anyone says "Safety" or "Running Back" to me, I get queasy.



We are asking who everyone would want between these two but it doesnt eliminate other approaches to our draft. Just curious MJW, after you pick a defensive back and a guard who would you like to target after that?

If you pass on defensive end or tackle in the first two rounds is the cupboard bare now, which makes it easier to just look for a running back to help Winston move into a more game manager role to limit Winstons natural miscues that happen while he is trying to be an elite franchise quarterback.

You know, more weapons for Winston. I think our offense is way ahead of our defense, we have not even begun to add for improvement or eventual replacement of anybody. It looks like there is absolutely no plan in place.


I would rather take a DE or a LT than a cornerback, even a good one. But it doesn't seem like the draft will fall that way. And as good as Nelson might be, he's still a guard. You find guards on Day Two, or you build them up from the bottom of the roster. You don't take them at #7.

To answer your question, after the first round, I would love to see DL and OL every single pick. Even if one is a Donovan Smith believer, it doesn't mitigate that Sweezy is trash, Dotson is old, Pamphile is a free agent, and the cupboard is bare behind them. And the defensive line? We all know that story. It should tell us something that even if Spence makes good, rushers are desperately needed.

I hate to disagree with you old friend, but I do not want a single draft pick expended on a weapon for Winston, ideally. We can fix running back easily enough with better run blocking. The receiving group is stacked, moreso if we include the tight ends. We need to think foundationally now more than ever. Linemen and more linemen.
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Re: Fitz or Nelson?

Postby mdb1958 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:29 am

MJW wrote:
mdb1958 wrote:

We are asking who everyone would want between these two but it doesnt eliminate other approaches to our draft. Just curious MJW, after you pick a defensive back and a guard who would you like to target after that?

If you pass on defensive end or tackle in the first two rounds is the cupboard bare now, which makes it easier to just look for a running back to help Winston move into a more game manager role to limit Winstons natural miscues that happen while he is trying to be an elite franchise quarterback.

You know, more weapons for Winston. I think our offense is way ahead of our defense, we have not even begun to add for improvement or eventual replacement of anybody. It looks like there is absolutely no plan in place.


I would rather take a DE or a LT than a cornerback, even a good one. But it doesn't seem like the draft will fall that way. And as good as Nelson might be, he's still a guard. You find guards on Day Two, or you build them up from the bottom of the roster. You don't take them at #7.

To answer your question, after the first round, I would love to see DL and OL every single pick. Even if one is a Donovan Smith believer, it doesn't mitigate that Sweezy is trash, Dotson is old, Pamphile is a free agent, and the cupboard is bare behind them. And the defensive line? We all know that story. It should tell us something that even if Spence makes good, rushers are desperately needed.

I hate to disagree with you old friend, but I do not want a single draft pick expended on a weapon for Winston, ideally. We can fix running back easily enough with better run blocking. The receiving group is stacked, moreso if we include the tight ends. We need to think foundationally now more than ever. Linemen and more linemen.



My thoughts arent offense. When I think Of Nelson, I could be wrong but I just think "superior natural guard". Doesnt have anything to do with not being good enough to be a tackle, its more the thought of he will step in and be the best natural left guard in the league. Sounds real inviting but I.d still hope for Chubb.

I'd think DE,DE,CB
DE,DT,CB
DE,DE,DT Of course the grabfest will make a decision like this, have to look deeper into those positions

Lots of who is there and the team can also think "that guy" is not who we want.

When I think of offensive line often I see guys without rank, so the most important thing I think of is executing, getting the job done, making do, adjusting.

Pretty much all the teams have to face this no matter where their player were picked. Would I accept we want better and we are going to change that, of course. I'd hope it was the right decision and it pays off.
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Re: Fitz or Nelson?

Postby mdb1958 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:40 am

DE or LT?

Depends on the consensus thoughts of who is the better player and who needs what when both are available to be picked. If a team has 4 first round young guys at DE and both tackle spots already then what...
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Re: Fitz or Nelson?

Postby Buc2 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:33 am

I agree that the FO needs to be targeting linemen at the top of the draft. If they could trade down to somewhere in the teens and add another 2nd round pick, I think that's what I'd want to do. Or trade even further down and add a 2nd round this year and a 1st next year. I'd be happy with that scenario too. Linemen, linemen, linemen! My kingdom for linemen.
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Re: Fitz or Nelson?

Postby mdb1958 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:37 am

Thats if they are or can be great!
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Re: Fitz or Nelson?

Postby Buc2 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:59 am

mdb1958 wrote:Thats if they are or can be great!

I think it goes without saying that you want the player(s) you pick to have the potential to be strong contributors to your team.
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Re: Fitz or Nelson?

Postby mdb1958 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:51 am

Yep, but if the lines have picked dry, you might go with other positions.
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Re: Fitz or Nelson?

Postby Buc2 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:55 pm

mdb1958 wrote:Yep, but if the lines have picked dry, you might go with other positions.

Yeah. I get that. It would be a shame to have to go that route, but I would understand.
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Re: Fitz or Nelson?

Postby MJW » Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:22 pm

Buc2 wrote:
mdb1958 wrote:Yep, but if the lines have picked dry, you might go with other positions.

Yeah. I get that. It would be a shame to have to go that route, but I would understand.


That's where I am at #7. No tackles worth it. No defensive linemen worth it. Got a guy that you think is going to be a great corner? Take him.
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Re: Fitz or Nelson?

Postby real bucs fan » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:44 pm

MJW wrote:
Buc2 wrote:Yeah. I get that. It would be a shame to have to go that route, but I would understand.


That's where I am at #7. No tackles worth it. No defensive linemen worth it. Got a guy that you think is going to be a great corner? Take him.

And if not?
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Re: Fitz or Nelson?

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:54 pm

real bucs fan wrote:
MJW wrote:
That's where I am at #7. No tackles worth it. No defensive linemen worth it. Got a guy that you think is going to be a great corner? Take him.

And if not?

B A R K L E Y !
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Re: Fitz or Nelson?

Postby Bootz2004 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:10 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
real bucs fan wrote:And if not?

B A R K L E Y !


J A M E S !
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Re: Fitz or Nelson?

Postby real bucs fan » Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:02 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
real bucs fan wrote:And if not?

B A R K L E Y !

Ya that's not where I was going with that....
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Re: Fitz or Nelson?

Postby MJW » Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:53 pm

real bucs fan wrote:
MJW wrote:
That's where I am at #7. No tackles worth it. No defensive linemen worth it. Got a guy that you think is going to be a great corner? Take him.

And if not?


Work the phones, because somebody is going to want one of those quarterbacks.
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Re: Fitz or Nelson?

Postby MJW » Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:03 am

And FWIW, I still like Denzel Ward more than Fitzpatrick, because unlike Fitzpatrick, Ward isn't a part-time safety, or a toy, or a freelancer. He's a, "Cover their best receiver for sixty snaps each week" corner.

So, even if Fitzpatrick is gone, I have no problem taking Ward there.
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Re: Fitz or Nelson?

Postby Alpha » Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:15 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
real bucs fan wrote:And if not?

B A R K L E Y !


In which alternative universe, do you believe that Barkley is going to be around at 7?

I LOVE the craziness.

Chubb, Barkley...these guys aren't around at 7. They are arguably the 2 best offensive/defensive players in this draft. And as much as I'd like to believe that the first 5 picks are gonna be QB's...they likely won't be.

You're likely looking at 2 QB's going in the first 7. That leaves FIVE "other" players. Hell...for shits and giggles, make it 3 QB's in the top 7 and 4 "others".

Who are the 4 best "other" prospects?

Barkely
Chubb
Nelson
Fitzpatrick

Sound about right? This is, at this point, pretty much the concensus. Sure...some craziness could happen with a fast riser...but y'all need to get a hold of yourselves.

And just stop with the "trade down" scenarios. This isn't the movie "Draft Day". Don't be a dumb-ass.
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Re: Fitz or Nelson?

Postby MJW » Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:30 am

Alpha wrote:
And just stop with the "trade down" scenarios. This isn't the movie "Draft Day". Don't be a dumb-ass.


Normally I agree with this. But not this year. There are four quarterbacks that multiple teams are going to view as potentially the guy - Rosen, Darnold, Allen, and Mayfield. We're at a little bit of a chokepoint because we're directly after the teams that might take them. That is to say, if one of them slips through the Browns, Giants, Broncos, and Jets, our phone is going to light up, because everyone knows we don't need one of them. Imagine if there's one guy left...say, Josh Allen...and you're the Redskins and you've lost Kirk Cousins, or you're the Cardinals, or you're Bills, and you love him. You're telling me you're not calling us and trying to make a deal? Yeah you are.

Or, to put it another way, three quarterbacks went in the first round last year. All three were traded up for. All four of these guys are better prospects than any of those three (if you like Mayfield.)
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Re: Fitz or Nelson?

Postby Jason Bourne » Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:03 am

We are drafting Nelson Or Chubb and unfortunately Chubb isn’t going to be there
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Re: Fitz or Nelson?

Postby terrytate » Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:29 am

MJW wrote:
Alpha wrote:
And just stop with the "trade down" scenarios. This isn't the movie "Draft Day". Don't be a dumb-ass.


Normally I agree with this. But not this year. There are four quarterbacks that multiple teams are going to view as potentially the guy - Rosen, Darnold, Allen, and Mayfield. We're at a little bit of a chokepoint because we're directly after the teams that might take them. That is to say, if one of them slips through the Browns, Giants, Broncos, and Jets, our phone is going to light up, because everyone knows we don't need one of them. Imagine if there's one guy left...say, Josh Allen...and you're the Redskins and you've lost Kirk Cousins, or you're the Cardinals, or you're Bills, and you love him. You're telling me you're not calling us and trying to make a deal? Yeah you are.

Or, to put it another way, three quarterbacks went in the first round last year. All three were traded up for. All four of these guys are better prospects than any of those three (if you like Mayfield.)


If Chubb is gone, this is likely the best case scenario. I am fully on board with taking Nelson at 7....but if I can fleece someone who is after a qb I do it in a heartbeat.
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Re: Fitz or Nelson?

Postby mdb1958 » Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:37 am

terrytate wrote:
MJW wrote:
Normally I agree with this. But not this year. There are four quarterbacks that multiple teams are going to view as potentially the guy - Rosen, Darnold, Allen, and Mayfield. We're at a little bit of a chokepoint because we're directly after the teams that might take them. That is to say, if one of them slips through the Browns, Giants, Broncos, and Jets, our phone is going to light up, because everyone knows we don't need one of them. Imagine if there's one guy left...say, Josh Allen...and you're the Redskins and you've lost Kirk Cousins, or you're the Cardinals, or you're Bills, and you love him. You're telling me you're not calling us and trying to make a deal? Yeah you are.

Or, to put it another way, three quarterbacks went in the first round last year. All three were traded up for. All four of these guys are better prospects than any of those three (if you like Mayfield.)


If Chubb is gone, this is likely the best case scenario. I am fully on board with taking Nelson at 7....but if I can fleece someone who is after a qb I do it in a heartbeat.



I dont see no deal to be made. Maybe if the teams still go after the quarterbacks and then someone absolutely has to have one of the other prospects.
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Re: Fitz or Nelson?

Postby Jason Bourne » Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:48 am

mdb1958 wrote:
terrytate wrote:
If Chubb is gone, this is likely the best case scenario. I am fully on board with taking Nelson at 7....but if I can fleece someone who is after a qb I do it in a heartbeat.



I dont see no deal to be made. Maybe if the teams still go after the quarterbacks and then someone absolutely has to have one of the other prospects.


only deal that could possibly happen is getting buffalo's 2 first rd pics for our #7 because they do need a qb . but i think they sign a vet Qb instead.
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Re: Fitz or Nelson?

Postby MJW » Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:53 am

Jason Bourne wrote:
mdb1958 wrote:

I dont see no deal to be made. Maybe if the teams still go after the quarterbacks and then someone absolutely has to have one of the other prospects.


only deal that could possibly happen is getting buffalo's 2 first rd pics for our #7 because they do need a qb . but i think they sign a vet Qb instead.


Why? Houston and Kansas City made HUGE leaps up to get quarterbacks this past draft. If a team is willing to part with a 2nd or 3rd this year and next year's first - and they should be if they love a quarterback - then we should listen.

With the exception of Chubb, who I've grown to really like, there's no other prospect in this draft I'd rather have than a late 1st, another 2nd, and a 1st next year.
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Re: Fitz or Nelson?

Postby Super K » Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:53 am

Jason Bourne wrote:
mdb1958 wrote:

I dont see no deal to be made. Maybe if the teams still go after the quarterbacks and then someone absolutely has to have one of the other prospects.


only deal that could possibly happen is getting buffalo's 2 first rd pics for our #7 because they do need a qb . but i think they sign a vet Qb instead.


While possible, it's not very probable...


We aren't the "jump to pick" for a QB that falls out of the top 5..

Why wouldn't teams look to trade up, and give up less, to 8,9 or 10?

Hell, even 11 and 12 are murky...
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Re: Fitz or Nelson?

Postby MJW » Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:56 am

Super K wrote:
Jason Bourne wrote:
only deal that could possibly happen is getting buffalo's 2 first rd pics for our #7 because they do need a qb . but i think they sign a vet Qb instead.


While possible, it's not very probable...


We aren't the "jump to pick" for a QB that falls out of the top 5..

Why wouldn't teams look to trade up, and give up less, to 8,9 or 10?

Hell, even 11 and 12 are murky...


Because if they don't want to, somebody else might, that's why. We just saw the Bears trade from #3 to #2 because they were scared of the Browns jumping up from #12.

Our pick really is the first "chokepoint" for the QB run. Unless all 4 go in the top 6, there will be deals to be made IF we want to make them. Not a doubt in my mind about that.
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Re: Fitz or Nelson?

Postby mdb1958 » Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:25 am

MJW wrote:
Super K wrote:
While possible, it's not very probable...


We aren't the "jump to pick" for a QB that falls out of the top 5..

Why wouldn't teams look to trade up, and give up less, to 8,9 or 10?

Hell, even 11 and 12 are murky...


Because if they don't want to, somebody else might, that's why. We just saw the Bears trade from #3 to #2 because they were scared of the Browns jumping up from #12.

Our pick really is the first "chokepoint" for the QB run. Unless all 4 go in the top 6, there will be deals to be made IF we want to make them. Not a doubt in my mind about that.



I havnt given much thought to someone giving us a pick for a qb or who it would be. I see that Texas tackle rising maybe we go that route or like you said earlier, invest in a cb we like. If we could have picked Chubb then we could be afforded time with Davenport.
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Re: Fitz or Nelson?

Postby RobR » Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:26 am

MJW wrote:
Jason Bourne wrote:
only deal that could possibly happen is getting buffalo's 2 first rd pics for our #7 because they do need a qb . but i think they sign a vet Qb instead.


Why? Houston and Kansas City made HUGE leaps up to get quarterbacks this past draft. If a team is willing to part with a 2nd or 3rd this year and next year's first - and they should be if they love a quarterback - then we should listen.

With the exception of Chubb, who I've grown to really like, there's no other prospect in this draft I'd rather have than a late 1st, another 2nd, and a 1st next year.


Give me next year's 1st rounder any day, especially from a franchise that desperately moved up to draft the 4th best QB in the draft because their fanbase wants a guy to get behind, a guy that will be told to sit a year but ultimately thrust into the lineup before he's ready due to fan pressure.
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Re: Fitz or Nelson?

Postby Super K » Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:58 am

MJW wrote:
Super K wrote:
While possible, it's not very probable...


We aren't the "jump to pick" for a QB that falls out of the top 5..

Why wouldn't teams look to trade up, and give up less, to 8,9 or 10?

Hell, even 11 and 12 are murky...


Because if they don't want to, somebody else might, that's why. We just saw the Bears trade from #3 to #2 because they were scared of the Browns jumping up from #12.

Our pick really is the first "chokepoint" for the QB run. Unless all 4 go in the top 6, there will be deals to be made IF we want to make them. Not a doubt in my mind about that.


You may very well be right..I just don't see it..

We ARE the first legit spot where QB isn't a need/want anymore, but as I illustrated that continues to slide for the next 3-5 picks...

Likewise, we lose leverage because of it...ask for the king's ransom you are talking about and our partner just takes his business over to the Raiders or Frisco...

All that being said, I don't know if I'm confident enough in Licht to fleece a team enough for us to move back...a more likely scenerio is we switch spots with Miami and they give us an additional 5th rounder..(like the frustrating as **** VH3 draft)..

It's a Bucs life..
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