Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

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Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby Doctor » Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:42 am

So I'd like to get a thread going here about the DEs. It's clear this is a major need for the team and as such everyone is super focused on the top ones in Chubb and Key. That's great and all, but if we go a different way in the first round there's still 6 more rounds to go. With that said, who are your top DEs outside of Chubb and Key? Who would you personally love to see in Pewter?
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby real bucs fan » Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:46 am

After Chubb and Key, the edges I like might be under 250 and thus viewed as OLBs. Combine will be important here.
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby DreadNaught » Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:07 am

Harold Landry is going to be a 1st rounder. Landry doesn't have the size, but I personally think the 3-4 OLB vs 4-3 DE fit debate is getting more antiquated each year in the NFL. It's a passing league and if you're drafting an EDGE rusher on Day 1-2 it's because you need help rushing the QB.

Like I posted in another thread, defenses are in nickel/sub defense (4-man front) almost 60% of the snaps and that # is even higher on 3rd downs when games are won and lost most Sundays.

I don't mean to dismiss the value a prospect like Chubb has an all-around DE that will be a 3-down player. But the biggest reason Chubb is valuable is b/c of his ability to get the QB off his spot.

You can find run stuffers in rounds 3-5 every year.
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:12 am

Mitch Hyatt took care of Landry when they played in 2016. I need to watch more film, but I did not see a phenom vs. Clemson.
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby real bucs fan » Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:36 am

DreadNaught wrote:Harold Landry is going to be a 1st rounder. Landry doesn't have the size, but I personally think the 3-4 OLB vs 4-3 DE fit debate is getting more antiquated each year in the NFL. It's a passing league and if you're drafting an EDGE rusher on Day 1-2 it's because you need help rushing the QB.

Like I posted in another thread, defenses are in nickel/sub defense (4-man front) almost 60% of the snaps and that # is even higher on 3rd downs when games are won and lost most Sundays.

I don't mean to dismiss the value a prospect like Chubb has an all-around DE that will be a 3-down player. But the biggest reason Chubb is valuable is b/c of his ability to get the QB off his spot.

You can find run stuffers in rounds 3-5 every year.


We have Spence as our 250lbs sub package pass rusher. I want an every down stud. Perhaps 2. Chubb to me is that guy.
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby MJW » Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:45 am

real bucs fan wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:Harold Landry is going to be a 1st rounder. Landry doesn't have the size, but I personally think the 3-4 OLB vs 4-3 DE fit debate is getting more antiquated each year in the NFL. It's a passing league and if you're drafting an EDGE rusher on Day 1-2 it's because you need help rushing the QB.

Like I posted in another thread, defenses are in nickel/sub defense (4-man front) almost 60% of the snaps and that # is even higher on 3rd downs when games are won and lost most Sundays.

I don't mean to dismiss the value a prospect like Chubb has an all-around DE that will be a 3-down player. But the biggest reason Chubb is valuable is b/c of his ability to get the QB off his spot.

You can find run stuffers in rounds 3-5 every year.


We have Spence as our 250lbs sub package pass rusher. I want an every down stud. Perhaps 2. Chubb to me is that guy.


Was going to post this. Like Spence, Landry is probably a natural 3-4 guy, and if you take him in the 4-3, he's not an every down guy.

I don't think we're getting Chubb. I think he's the first non-quarterback taken unless he bombs the workouts. I don't want Key. The guy is auditioning for a multi-million dollar job and he plays this season with a dad bod. I'm not sure if we're getting an end in the first round, honestly.
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby real bucs fan » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:00 pm

MJW wrote:
real bucs fan wrote:
We have Spence as our 250lbs sub package pass rusher. I want an every down stud. Perhaps 2. Chubb to me is that guy.


Was going to post this. Like Spence, Landry is probably a natural 3-4 guy, and if you take him in the 4-3, he's not an every down guy.

I don't think we're getting Chubb. I think he's the first non-quarterback taken unless he bombs the workouts. I don't want Key. The guy is auditioning for a multi-million dollar job and he plays this season with a dad bod. I'm not sure if we're getting an end in the first round, honestly.

Agree with pretty much every point, but haven't quite given up on Chubb yet. We'll see where we end up picking, but hopefully the QBs rise, as well I'm not sure the 9ers take a DL for the 4th year in a row.
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby DreadNaught » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:05 pm

MJW wrote:
real bucs fan wrote:
We have Spence as our 250lbs sub package pass rusher. I want an every down stud. Perhaps 2. Chubb to me is that guy.


Was going to post this. Like Spence, Landry is probably a natural 3-4 guy, and if you take him in the 4-3, he's not an every down guy.

I don't think we're getting Chubb. I think he's the first non-quarterback taken unless he bombs the workouts. I don't want Key. The guy is auditioning for a multi-million dollar job and he plays this season with a dad bod. I'm not sure if we're getting an end in the first round, honestly.


I agree RBF, Chubb is my #1 guy right now as well and I doubt that changes.

The Bucs are well on their way to a 4-12 season and while the SOS hurts in terms of tiebreakers vs other 4 win teams it might still get us in the top 5 overall.

I think Texans will beat the Colts week 17, the Bears will beat the Browns week 16, and the Broncos will beat the Colts this Thursday giving all 3 teams 5 wins and putting the Bucs at the 5th overall post.

So that leaves the Browns, Colts, Giants, and 49ers drafting in front of the Bucs. I think the Browns and Giants are drafting a QB. So that leaves us with a top 3 non-QB prospect.
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby Doctor » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:09 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
MJW wrote:
Was going to post this. Like Spence, Landry is probably a natural 3-4 guy, and if you take him in the 4-3, he's not an every down guy.

I don't think we're getting Chubb. I think he's the first non-quarterback taken unless he bombs the workouts. I don't want Key. The guy is auditioning for a multi-million dollar job and he plays this season with a dad bod. I'm not sure if we're getting an end in the first round, honestly.


I agree RBF, Chubb is my #1 guy right now as well and I doubt that changes.

The Bucs are well on their way to a 4-12 season and while the SOS hurts in terms of tiebreakers vs other 4 win teams it might still get us in the top 5 overall.

I think Texans will beat the Colts week 17, the Bears will beat the Browns week 16, and the Broncos will beat the Colts this Thursday giving all 3 teams 5 wins and putting the Bucs at the 5th overall post.

So that leaves the Browns, Colts, Giants, and 49ers drafting in front of the Bucs. I think the Browns and Giants are drafting a QB. So that leaves us with a top 3 non-QB prospect.


Works for me, because there are only, imo, 3 elite prospects and none are QBs. IDK how people feel about taking a OG at #5, but Idc.
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby DreadNaught » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:10 pm

real bucs fan wrote:
MJW wrote:
Was going to post this. Like Spence, Landry is probably a natural 3-4 guy, and if you take him in the 4-3, he's not an every down guy.

I don't think we're getting Chubb. I think he's the first non-quarterback taken unless he bombs the workouts. I don't want Key. The guy is auditioning for a multi-million dollar job and he plays this season with a dad bod. I'm not sure if we're getting an end in the first round, honestly.

Agree with pretty much every point, but haven't quite given up on Chubb yet. We'll see where we end up picking, but hopefully the QBs rise, as well I'm not sure the 9ers take a DL for the 4th year in a row.


Good point on the 49ers who have drafted Armstead, Buckner, and Thomas in the top 10 the past 3 years. I could see them trade down or go w/ Barkley tbh.

Colts are a wild card since who knows what they will do. But if you subscribe to the 3-4/4-3 narrative for an EDGE like Chubb is he that valuable (top 3 pick) to a 3-4 base like the Colts run or will they adapt their scheme?
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby real bucs fan » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:18 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
real bucs fan wrote:Agree with pretty much every point, but haven't quite given up on Chubb yet. We'll see where we end up picking, but hopefully the QBs rise, as well I'm not sure the 9ers take a DL for the 4th year in a row.


Good point on the 49ers who have drafted Armstead, Buckner, and Thomas in the top 10 the past 3 years. I could see them trade down or go w/ Barkley tbh.

Colts are a wild card since who knows what they will do. But if you subscribe to the 3-4/4-3 narrative for an EDGE like Chubb is he that valuable (top 3 pick) to a 3-4 base like the Colts run or will they adapt their scheme?

Colts I think would definitely be in the Barkley sweepstakes, but Chubb would fill a major need for them as well.

I posted this before, but I really hate this SOS tiebreaker. We get screwed over for having a brutal schedule, and then get screwed over on draft day. We could end up seeing 6+ teams finish at 4-12 and we'd be picking last...
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby Doctor » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:23 pm

I could also see the Colts getting Fitz.

How about the two DE's from Clemson? Ferrell and Bryant are both 6'5 265lbs.
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby Cheb » Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:43 am

It's hard to say who is going where on draft boards. Outside of the top two in Chubb and Key, there's a definite second tier of guys. As a group, I'm not overly impressed with them. Here's a few that are apparently highly thought of.

Bradley Chubb from NC State is obviously the best pass rusher in the draft. If we had the first overall pick, he'd be my selection.

Arden Key from LSU is very boom or bust. I would get on the bandwagon if we picked him, but I have my reservations.

Ogbonnia Okoronkwo from Oklahoma is a bit undersized, about the same size as Noah Spence. He's an active run defender, but he has a tendency to give ground related to his size. He has a nice speed rush, and he does a good job of splitting double teams. He plays high, but, well, he's a linebacker by any other name, not a defensive end. His toolbox is pretty bare. He gives up on the rush when he doesn't win with his initial move, which is concerning. He loafs ALOT. Like, dude, it's a third and long, ****ing try to rush. Lots of jogging, even walking at times. That's a HUGE red flag for me. I see him more as a rush backer than a defensive end, and his lack of consistent effort is a huge downer for me. Per CBS's rankings, he's the 12th overall prospect, and that's criminally high.

Harold Landry from Boston College has a pretty good first step when he puts his hand in the ground, and has a pretty good rip to disengage on the outside. Decent balance on his speed rushes. He runs stunts well. A bit of a plodder in the open field. Does a good job of setting the edge; plays the run intelligently. A bare cupboard of rush moves with only his speed rush and rip. Has issues finishing at the quarterback. If you hard commit to placing him in a wide 9 and telling him to go upfield every snap, he could be successful for a team that would do that for him. As is, he's a bit raw. He also missed four games this year with an ankle injury. His production took a swan dive, dropped from 16.5 sacks to 5, 22 TFLs to 8.5. Depending on the defense and his medical, I'd consider him in the late second or third. He's basically an even less toolsy Noah Spence.

Dorance Armstrong from Kansas is another undersized rusher. I like his pad level, and his first step is impressive. He gets upfield in a hurry. He needs to work on his hand fighting, specifically disengaging. Too often his upper body gets locked up, and if he can learn to keep himself clean, he has the juice to win outside. He got a few sacks working through double teams; his effort is commendable. He is a pretty good run defender for being undersized (6'4", 240). Apparently he's a second rounder. I could get behind him being in pewter in the second, for sure. I saw him play vs Texas Tech and I think he'll make for a good pro, especially if he gets a good DL coach.

Clelin Ferrell, the DE from Clemson, is apparently a first-team All-American this season, Bradley Chubb being the other DE on that team. When I watch Ferrell, I don't see anything special. I think he has JAG written all over him. He's just not a very good pass rusher. His feet are slow, he plays high, and he has very little suddenness to his game. Apparently he's a second rounder? What a joke. I watched him play versus Virginia Tech. While one game alone isn't a great sample, if this was indicitive of his play, I am not very interested. Talk about pedestrian.
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby real bucs fan » Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:58 am

Outside of Chubb, it's an incredibly mediocre EDGE class IMO. So far there's noone I really like outside of him. The thing with EDGEs is that if they aren't elite, they're essentially dime a dozen players. You need impactful guys. Who in this class do I see being impactful? Chubb and that's it. I haven't delved too deep into it yet though, and the combine will open my eyes to someone usually (like it did to Danielle Hunter who I crushed hard on after). Key has a chance, but spending a top 10 pick on a guy with a chance at being impactful is a MAJOR gamble.

This is why I really hope we throw some cash at the position in FA, because if Chubb isn't there, I think we're back to praying Noah Spence can stay healthy and breaks out.
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:12 pm

Not a real deep class of corners either.
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby mdb1958 » Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:08 pm

James Hearns - Louisville.
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby Doctor » Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:54 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:Not a real deep class of corners either.

Not really. Big drop off after Fitz, but still a lot of good talent that can be groomed. Just no one you'd want out there week 1.

Lots of nice DT's though... I know that's not sexy but...
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby real bucs fan » Tue Dec 12, 2017 6:52 pm

Really strong OL group though, and another great year for RBs. I really hope we take advantage of that and are able to get a stud RB and a stud LG.
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby Selmon Rules » Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:39 pm

real bucs fan wrote:Really strong OL group though, and another great year for RBs. I really hope we take advantage of that and are able to get a stud RB and a stud LG.

I'd rather have stud OL in first two rounds to open up holes your grandma can run through and leave the RB for later....

Honestly as long as something is done on O-line and DE, I'll be happy. Love to see Chubb in 1st and anyone that will improve OL in second round....
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby real bucs fan » Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:41 pm

Selmon Rules wrote:
real bucs fan wrote:Really strong OL group though, and another great year for RBs. I really hope we take advantage of that and are able to get a stud RB and a stud LG.

I'd rather have stud OL in first two rounds to open up holes your grandma can run through and leave the RB for later....

Honestly as long as something is done on O-line and DE, I'll be happy. Love to see Chubb in 1st and anyone that will improve OL in second round....

We need an LG, but who else are we replacing on the OL? Think Smith, Marpet, Sweezy, and Dotson are all gonna return and they really aren't a bad group.

Chubb I'm all about, but I think he's off the board. I think we end up with Barkley or Guice, and then go LG in round 2 with maybe Henderson?
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby Nano » Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:53 pm

Sweezy needs to be replaced, he's really bad. Maybe it's his back lingering, but he has no push
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby Super K » Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:02 pm

Nano wrote:Sweezy needs to be replaced, he's really bad. Maybe it's his back lingering, but he has no push

Agreed...dude sucks
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:08 pm

Sean Welsh from Iowa is a day 2-3 guard we should consider.

2016 all American, 36 starts going into this season. He's a poor man's Quentin Nelson.
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby Bootz2004 » Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:46 pm

real bucs fan wrote:
Selmon Rules wrote:I'd rather have stud OL in first two rounds to open up holes your grandma can run through and leave the RB for later....

Honestly as long as something is done on O-line and DE, I'll be happy. Love to see Chubb in 1st and anyone that will improve OL in second round....

We need an LG, but who else are we replacing on the OL? Think Smith, Marpet, Sweezy, and Dotson are all gonna return and they really aren't a bad group.

Chubb I'm all about, but I think he's off the board. I think we end up with Barkley or Guice, and then go LG in round 2 with maybe Henderson?


Both guard spots need to be upgraded immediately. Pamphile is a FA, Sweezy has been as bad as the Donovan Smith haters believe he is. You could make a case for RT as well. Depth also needs to be addressed. The Oline needs work and I think we address before we think about spending premium picks on RBs.
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby mdb1958 » Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:52 pm

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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby mdb1958 » Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:53 pm

When the speed of the 250 lb ish edge rushers come out, we should come up with some better options. Also, what is hard to come up with is how much more strength they can build upon once they get to the NFL.
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:32 pm

I have no issues with a 250lb speed rusher.

Hercules Mata'afa is one of my favs in that mold.
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby MJW » Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:19 am

Bootz2004 wrote:
real bucs fan wrote:We need an LG, but who else are we replacing on the OL? Think Smith, Marpet, Sweezy, and Dotson are all gonna return and they really aren't a bad group.

Chubb I'm all about, but I think he's off the board. I think we end up with Barkley or Guice, and then go LG in round 2 with maybe Henderson?


Both guard spots need to be upgraded immediately. Pamphile is a FA, Sweezy has been as bad as the Donovan Smith haters believe he is. You could make a case for RT as well. Depth also needs to be addressed. The Oline needs work and I think we address before we think about spending premium picks on RBs.


Agreed. The line is a mess right now. Enough has been said about Donovan Smith, but let's agree he has limitations. Sweezy is trash. Pamphile is free agent trash. Marpet is fine and will improve in Year 2 at center, and Dotson is rock solid but also 32. But we need at bare minimum 2 starting caliber guards and a developmental tackle.

I would like to see us do what the Chargers did this year. They drafted the two best pure guards in the class in rounds 2-3 with Lamp and Feeney. In my perfect world, we'd do that after taking an OT, DE, or CB in the first round. Then perhaps in round 4 look at someone like Josh Adams.
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby real bucs fan » Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:52 am

For next year I only think we need to get an LG. Sweezy has been a disapointment, but he's not been as terrible as some here claim. As well, it's important to remember this is a guy who's coming back after taking a year off due to back surgery. He likely had no offeseason of weight training, and his strength is probably way down. Give Sweezy an offseason to get it back, and he could become a force again. Cutting him now would be giving up on him way too early IMO. He's not been so bad where he needs to be replaced even if he were to come back the exact same next year, and there's a good chance he's a heck of alot better.

Smith is our guy at LT like it or not. Marpet should be even better year 2 at C. Dotson may be aging, but he's one of the best RTs in the league. Fix that blackhole at LG and we could have ourselves a good oline immediately- as it currently isn't as bad as folks make it out to be (it's more mediocre than anything). People love to scapegoat the oline, but I think with Barber having some success it's starting to be proven that Doug Martin is just plain dogshit.
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby mdb1958 » Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:57 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:I have no issues with a 250lb speed rusher.

Hercules Mata'afa is one of my favs in that mold.




6' 2" 255 --------- Marcus Martin #44




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