Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby real bucs fan » Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:55 am

Cheb wrote:
real bucs fan wrote:Arden Key just ran a 4.85 40 at his pro day at 235lbs.


He's looking like a worse option by the day.

What's the over/under he falls to the third? Or later? He's falling down my board further and further.

He just has every red flag in the book. So much comes down to how he interviews though, so I have no idea. Based on the info I have he's a Day 3 gamble at this point.
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby Bootz2004 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:50 am

real bucs fan wrote:
Cheb wrote:
He's looking like a worse option by the day.

What's the over/under he falls to the third? Or later? He's falling down my board further and further.

He just has every red flag in the book. So much comes down to how he interviews though, so I have no idea. Based on the info I have he's a Day 3 gamble at this point.


That's very comforting. I feel good about him in the 2nd. Any info YOU of all people have can't be taken with more than a grain of salt.
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby real bucs fan » Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:52 am

Bootz2004 wrote:
real bucs fan wrote:He just has every red flag in the book. So much comes down to how he interviews though, so I have no idea. Based on the info I have he's a Day 3 gamble at this point.


That's very comforting. I feel good about him in the 2nd. Any info YOU of all people have can't be taken with more than a grain of salt.

Let's see... inconsistant tape, weight issues, quit on his team...

But considering you're the biggest idiot on this board, I'm not surprised.
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby Cheb » Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:20 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
real bucs fan wrote:He just has every red flag in the book. So much comes down to how he interviews though, so I have no idea. Based on the info I have he's a Day 3 gamble at this point.


That's very comforting. I feel good about him in the 2nd. Any info YOU of all people have can't be taken with more than a grain of salt.


He's ran slow and weighed light, has character red flags including quit his team for personal reasons, has medical red flags, and his film this year sucked eggs when he was on the field. What exactly about that screams second rounder?

The Bucs could reach for Key in the second round, a gamble at a position where he likely wouldn't see the field very much. Or the Bucs could instead add a safety, corner, guard or running back of starting quality, who would likely see the field a ton.

Tell me, what's your rationale for selecting a pass rusher with every red flag in the book, a guy who is proportionally skinnier than our weakside linebacker?
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby terrytate » Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:38 pm

Cheb wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
That's very comforting. I feel good about him in the 2nd. Any info YOU of all people have can't be taken with more than a grain of salt.


He's ran slow and weighed light, has character red flags including quit his team for personal reasons, has medical red flags, and his film this year sucked eggs when he was on the field. What exactly about that screams second rounder?

The Bucs could reach for Key in the second round, a gamble at a position where he likely wouldn't see the field very much. Or the Bucs could instead add a safety, corner, guard or running back of starting quality, who would likely see the field a ton.

Tell me, what's your rationale for selecting a pass rusher with every red flag in the book, a guy who is proportionally skinnier than our weakside linebacker?



I watched 30 minutes of his film and didnt want him. That was before I knew about his red flags. At this point, I would only take him as an UDFA
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby Bootz2004 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:52 pm

Cheb wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
That's very comforting. I feel good about him in the 2nd. Any info YOU of all people have can't be taken with more than a grain of salt.


He's ran slow and weighed light, has character red flags including quit his team for personal reasons, has medical red flags, and his film this year sucked eggs when he was on the field. What exactly about that screams second rounder?

The Bucs could reach for Key in the second round, a gamble at a position where he likely wouldn't see the field very much. Or the Bucs could instead add a safety, corner, guard or running back of starting quality, who would likely see the field a ton.

Tell me, what's your rationale for selecting a pass rusher with every red flag in the book, a guy who is proportionally skinnier than our weakside linebacker?


Boy oh boy. This board hasn't been that bad this draft season with their over exaggerating but man Cheb, the bullshit is strong with your post here.

He ran slow. Big deal. Again wake me up when players are running 40 yards in straight lines wearing shorts on NFL fields during games.

Character concerns? Quit the team?! Again why the need to fabricate? He left the team in SPRING, had shoulder surgery and came back. You don't know his reasons. But did he do anything illegal? No. Was he suspended because of it? No. What exactly is the character red flag here. Quitting would mean he didn't return to the team at all.

Medical red flags. By that logic any player who suffered an injury has medical red flags. Those red flags equated to 4 missed games. Did it affect his performance? Absolutely. Same can be said and is often the case with most guys.

If you knock Key for medical yet you say you'd draft Derwin James, Derrius Guice, Nick Chubb, you're a hypocrite.

Key doesn't have every red flag in the book. It's not like he got banned from an entire football conference and suspended because of a serious drug habit like a player so many here wanted...Oh wait, we drafted him.

Key's tape when healthy is great. He can get after the QB like a ton of guys in this draft can't. That fans of this team can't see that is no shocker to me.
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby Naismith » Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:10 pm

Key's not going in the first two rounds. You can have a lot of question marks if you have the athleticism to back it up. If you have off field questions and on field questions and then show poor athleticism, well, that's not good for your draft stock.
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby DreadNaught » Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:14 pm

I'm a believer in Key's potential, but he hasn't won be over during this draft process regarding the person he is. Like Key, I was/am a believer in Noah Spence's talent but he had some reg flags on character (for different reasons), so I read what I could find and listened to him when interviews and formed the opinion his issues where behind and that seems to be the case. I just haven't been able to do that with Key.

I'm not concerned about his 40. But does he want to be great football player? I don't know and his actions don't seem to indicate so at this point. But he could mature and live up to his talent.

At the end of the day he's a long, athletic EDGE defender that could do alot of damage in the NFL. But it's more likely he's out of the league in 3 years if doesn't mature and start investing in himself. The guy is out of shape and that is major concern for guy at his position. Some team will take a chance on him, but there is serious risk there so I could see him slip to early day 3. Talent like his doesn't drop too far unless he's beating women.
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby Bootz2004 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:18 pm

Naismith wrote:Key's not going in the first two rounds. You can have a lot of question marks if you have the athleticism to back it up. If you have off field questions and on field questions and then show poor athleticism, well, that's not good for your draft stock.


If you come to the conclusion that he doesn’t have athleticism to back it up after watching his tape you have zero clue as to what you’re watching. No way around that. His tape doesn’t show poor athleticism.
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby Cheb » Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:23 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
Cheb wrote:
He's ran slow and weighed light, has character red flags including quit his team for personal reasons, has medical red flags, and his film this year sucked eggs when he was on the field. What exactly about that screams second rounder?

The Bucs could reach for Key in the second round, a gamble at a position where he likely wouldn't see the field very much. Or the Bucs could instead add a safety, corner, guard or running back of starting quality, who would likely see the field a ton.

Tell me, what's your rationale for selecting a pass rusher with every red flag in the book, a guy who is proportionally skinnier than our weakside linebacker?


Boy oh boy. This board hasn't been that bad this draft season with their over exaggerating but man Cheb, the bullshit is strong with your post here.

He ran slow. Big deal. Again wake me up when players are running 40 yards in straight lines wearing shorts on NFL fields during games.

Character concerns? Quit the team?! Again why the need to fabricate? He left the team in SPRING, had shoulder surgery and came back. You don't know his reasons. But did he do anything illegal? No. Was he suspended because of it? No. What exactly is the character red flag here. Quitting would mean he didn't return to the team at all.

Medical red flags. By that logic any player who suffered an injury has medical red flags. Those red flags equated to 4 missed games. Did it affect his performance? Absolutely. Same can be said and is often the case with most guys.

If you knock Key for medical yet you say you'd draft Derwin James, Derrius Guice, Nick Chubb, you're a hypocrite.

Key doesn't have every red flag in the book. It's not like he got banned from an entire football conference and suspended because of a serious drug habit like a player so many here wanted...Oh wait, we drafted him.

Key's tape when healthy is great. He can get after the QB like a ton of guys in this draft can't. That fans of this team can't see that is no shocker to me.


He left the team for "personal reasons" in the spring that were never fully explained. That is not bullshit nor fabricated. It's pretty well documented. Google it. Both he and his father refuse to answer questions about it. If that doesn't raise a red flag, I don't know what to tell you.

If it were for an innocent reason, then it would have been publically explained. Grandma's dying of cancer and wanted to spend time with her, his brother needs help building a house, his sister wants to backpack across Europe with him, whatever.

Leaving is quitting a team. If I leave a party, I have quit that party. If you leave your job, you have quit that job. He left his team, which is quitting his team, which brings to light obvious fundamental questions about how much a future draftee loves football. That's a red flag.

I acknowledge the medical issues in every prospect. Having a consistent standard is not hypocritical. And while he has medical problems, they aren't worse than anyone else's. That's not a huge concern, but it should be in the decision matrix on whether to draft or not. As should the fact that he showed up very overweight when he did come back to play. As should the fact that now Key is so underweight that no one in their right mind would trust him to hold the edge on a down to down basis.

As far as his 40, I agree that they are largely overblown. But when a speed rusher runs a DT time at an OLB weight, that's concerning, don't you think? That would have made him the slowest defensive end at the combine.

If Key repeated his prior production, I'd be all on board. But he didn't. His selective history as to why he left his team is concerning, and his selective drills at the combine pointed to a lack of overall athleticism, which his just publicized 40 just confirmed.

He's small. He's slow. He hides the truth, whatever that truth may be, and he hides his testing, which is by turns mediocre or horrible.

If you'd rather draft Key in the second round over a talented safety, corner, running back, or guard, then that's your perogative. The former is a grabbag of hopes and guessing, while all of the latter would be instant candidates to start at positions of high need.

But don't let me tell you what to think. You never do. :)
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby Doctor » Wed Apr 04, 2018 4:05 pm

I don't think Key's stock is too dissimilar from Spence. A guy that shoulda, coulda, woulda been a first rounder but won't be. But a guy with tremendous upside that could very well bust, do you roll that dice in the second? In most positions I say no, but when it comes to pass rushers I really don't mind the dice roll. The upside is just too large in finding a great pass rusher.
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby Bootz2004 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:35 pm

Doctor wrote:I don't think Key's stock is too dissimilar from Spence. A guy that shoulda, coulda, woulda been a first rounder but won't be. But a guy with tremendous upside that could very well bust, do you roll that dice in the second? In most positions I say no, but when it comes to pass rushers I really don't mind the dice roll. The upside is just too large in finding a great pass rusher.


That's the key thing. He's a pass rusher. Not a WR. Not a safety or LB. We took a guy who got banned from an entire conference for drug abuse in the 2nd round. If that isn't a bigger red flag than leaving a team and then coming back and playing then you're trolling. This crap about he's a UDFA isn't even trolling, it's stupidity plain and simple.
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby Deja Entendu » Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:59 pm

Cheb wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
Boy oh boy. This board hasn't been that bad this draft season with their over exaggerating but man Cheb, the bullshit is strong with your post here.

He ran slow. Big deal. Again wake me up when players are running 40 yards in straight lines wearing shorts on NFL fields during games.

Character concerns? Quit the team?! Again why the need to fabricate? He left the team in SPRING, had shoulder surgery and came back. You don't know his reasons. But did he do anything illegal? No. Was he suspended because of it? No. What exactly is the character red flag here. Quitting would mean he didn't return to the team at all.

Medical red flags. By that logic any player who suffered an injury has medical red flags. Those red flags equated to 4 missed games. Did it affect his performance? Absolutely. Same can be said and is often the case with most guys.

If you knock Key for medical yet you say you'd draft Derwin James, Derrius Guice, Nick Chubb, you're a hypocrite.

Key doesn't have every red flag in the book. It's not like he got banned from an entire football conference and suspended because of a serious drug habit like a player so many here wanted...Oh wait, we drafted him.

Key's tape when healthy is great. He can get after the QB like a ton of guys in this draft can't. That fans of this team can't see that is no shocker to me.


He left the team for "personal reasons" in the spring that were never fully explained. That is not bullshit nor fabricated. It's pretty well documented. Google it. Both he and his father refuse to answer questions about it. If that doesn't raise a red flag, I don't know what to tell you.

If it were for an innocent reason, then it would have been publically explained. Grandma's dying of cancer and wanted to spend time with her, his brother needs help building a house, his sister wants to backpack across Europe with him, whatever.

Leaving is quitting a team. If I leave a party, I have quit that party. If you leave your job, you have quit that job. He left his team, which is quitting his team, which brings to light obvious fundamental questions about how much a future draftee loves football. That's a red flag.

I acknowledge the medical issues in every prospect. Having a consistent standard is not hypocritical. And while he has medical problems, they aren't worse than anyone else's. That's not a huge concern, but it should be in the decision matrix on whether to draft or not. As should the fact that he showed up very overweight when he did come back to play. As should the fact that now Key is so underweight that no one in their right mind would trust him to hold the edge on a down to down basis.

As far as his 40, I agree that they are largely overblown. But when a speed rusher runs a DT time at an OLB weight, that's concerning, don't you think? That would have made him the slowest defensive end at the combine.

If Key repeated his prior production, I'd be all on board. But he didn't. His selective history as to why he left his team is concerning, and his selective drills at the combine pointed to a lack of overall athleticism, which his just publicized 40 just confirmed.

He's small. He's slow. He hides the truth, whatever that truth may be, and he hides his testing, which is by turns mediocre or horrible.

If you'd rather draft Key in the second round over a talented safety, corner, running back, or guard, then that's your perogative. The former is a grabbag of hopes and guessing, while all of the latter would be instant candidates to start at positions of high need.

But don't let me tell you what to think. You never do. :)


I think you seem overly harsh regarding his leave of absence. A leave of absence isn't "quitting." The dude apparently had some serious personal issues to address, and then returned to his team. He has also reportedly been very open and honest about it all to NFL teams, and I'm sure he was with his coaches at LSU. Quite frankly he doesn't owe the public any explanation, and I respect his privacy.

That being said, I think there are still things to be concerned about with him as a player. I like him better than Davenport. I still prefer Landry.
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby mdb1958 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:36 pm

I wouldnt count on Key being a better player than Davenport. Landry will hurt you in the run game - maybe always.
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby real bucs fan » Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:11 pm

Deja Entendu wrote:
Cheb wrote:
He left the team for "personal reasons" in the spring that were never fully explained. That is not bullshit nor fabricated. It's pretty well documented. Google it. Both he and his father refuse to answer questions about it. If that doesn't raise a red flag, I don't know what to tell you.

If it were for an innocent reason, then it would have been publically explained. Grandma's dying of cancer and wanted to spend time with her, his brother needs help building a house, his sister wants to backpack across Europe with him, whatever.

Leaving is quitting a team. If I leave a party, I have quit that party. If you leave your job, you have quit that job. He left his team, which is quitting his team, which brings to light obvious fundamental questions about how much a future draftee loves football. That's a red flag.

I acknowledge the medical issues in every prospect. Having a consistent standard is not hypocritical. And while he has medical problems, they aren't worse than anyone else's. That's not a huge concern, but it should be in the decision matrix on whether to draft or not. As should the fact that he showed up very overweight when he did come back to play. As should the fact that now Key is so underweight that no one in their right mind would trust him to hold the edge on a down to down basis.

As far as his 40, I agree that they are largely overblown. But when a speed rusher runs a DT time at an OLB weight, that's concerning, don't you think? That would have made him the slowest defensive end at the combine.

If Key repeated his prior production, I'd be all on board. But he didn't. His selective history as to why he left his team is concerning, and his selective drills at the combine pointed to a lack of overall athleticism, which his just publicized 40 just confirmed.

He's small. He's slow. He hides the truth, whatever that truth may be, and he hides his testing, which is by turns mediocre or horrible.

If you'd rather draft Key in the second round over a talented safety, corner, running back, or guard, then that's your perogative. The former is a grabbag of hopes and guessing, while all of the latter would be instant candidates to start at positions of high need.

But don't let me tell you what to think. You never do. :)


I think you seem overly harsh regarding his leave of absence. A leave of absence isn't "quitting." The dude apparently had some serious personal issues to address, and then returned to his team. He has also reportedly been very open and honest about it all to NFL teams, and I'm sure he was with his coaches at LSU. Quite frankly he doesn't owe the public any explanation, and I respect his privacy.

That being said, I think there are still things to be concerned about with him as a player. I like him better than Davenport. I still prefer Landry.

We can only go by the info we have. Perhaps he answered all character and medical issues with teams. But even if he did, just on tape and traits alone, he's a 2nd rounder at this point and that's with perfect intangibles. Assuming there is some fire with the smoke though, he's a Day 3 guy now. He has every red flag in the book. Doesn't mean there's no chance he puts it together, just there are way too many red flags for a team to take a chance on him with an early pick IMO.
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby mdb1958 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:48 am

Just how good can Ade Aruna DE Tulane become?
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby mdb1958 » Sun Aug 19, 2018 1:06 pm

mdb1958 wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:I have no issues with a 250lb speed rusher.

Hercules Mata'afa is one of my favs in that mold.




6' 2" 255 --------- Marcus Martin #44




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Got his first sack.
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