With the 1st pick in the 2018 NFL Draft the Cleveland Browns

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Re: With the 1st pick in the 2018 NFL Draft the Cleveland Br

Postby MJW » Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:19 am

Phantom Phenom wrote:In an October radio interview, Browns consultant Scot McCloughan revealed that he rated Oklahoma's Baker Mayfield as the top quarterback in the 2018 draft.

McCloughan's front-office career began in Green Bay with Brett Favre. "He reminds me of a shorter version of Brett Favre," McCloughan said. "Tough guy. He can throw it. And he's very confident, and he's not afraid whatsoever, whatsoever. He's a battler. I know saying Brett Favre's a big name, and I was around him for a while, but this guy (Mayfield) has talent." Per the Cleveland Plain Dealer, "word circulated at the Senior Bowl last month" that McCloughan was "talking up Mayfield" to new Browns GM John Dorsey.


I feel so bad for Browns fans. I pray for their sake this is a smokescreen.
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Re: With the 1st pick in the 2018 NFL Draft the Cleveland Br

Postby DreadNaught » Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:38 am

MJW wrote:
Phantom Phenom wrote:In an October radio interview, Browns consultant Scot McCloughan revealed that he rated Oklahoma's Baker Mayfield as the top quarterback in the 2018 draft.

McCloughan's front-office career began in Green Bay with Brett Favre. "He reminds me of a shorter version of Brett Favre," McCloughan said. "Tough guy. He can throw it. And he's very confident, and he's not afraid whatsoever, whatsoever. He's a battler. I know saying Brett Favre's a big name, and I was around him for a while, but this guy (Mayfield) has talent." Per the Cleveland Plain Dealer, "word circulated at the Senior Bowl last month" that McCloughan was "talking up Mayfield" to new Browns GM John Dorsey.


I feel so bad for Browns fans. I pray for their sake this is a smokescreen.


Dorsey & McCoughlan are two of the best talent evaluators in the NFL. The Browns have also added some other well regarded personnel guys recently as they overhauled the previous regime of beancounters that had minimal experience evaluating NFL talent.

I expect the Browns roster will be one of the best in the NFL within 3 years. They just have to figure out the HC-QB situation and is Hue Jackson that guy.
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Re: With the 1st pick in the 2018 NFL Draft the Cleveland Br

Postby real bucs fan » Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:51 am

I don't think Mayfield going #1 is all that crazy. If Johnny Manziel never existed and Mayfield was an inch and half taller, he'd probably be the clear top QB in this class... those comps are what are hurting him, and I think they are unfair. If you can look past them, the pick makes sense. The Browns need a special type of personality to turn that trainwreck around.
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Re: With the 1st pick in the 2018 NFL Draft the Cleveland Br

Postby MJW » Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:53 am

real bucs fan wrote:I don't think Mayfield going #1 is all that crazy. If Johnny Manziel never existed and Mayfield was an inch and half taller, he'd probably be the clear top QB in this class... those comps are what are hurting him, and I think they are unfair. If you can look past them, the pick makes sense. The Browns need a special type of personality to turn that trainwreck around.


So, if a lot of things were different, and if you totally overlook some other things too...he's a good pick.

I think you're making my case for me.
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Re: With the 1st pick in the 2018 NFL Draft the Cleveland Br

Postby real bucs fan » Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:02 am

MJW wrote:
real bucs fan wrote:I don't think Mayfield going #1 is all that crazy. If Johnny Manziel never existed and Mayfield was an inch and half taller, he'd probably be the clear top QB in this class... those comps are what are hurting him, and I think they are unfair. If you can look past them, the pick makes sense. The Browns need a special type of personality to turn that trainwreck around.


So, if a lot of things were different, and if you totally overlook some other things too...he's a good pick.

I think you're making my case for me.

I'm talking 2 things:

1. Johnny Manziel. His existence shouldn't factor into a Mayfield evaluation.
2. 1.5 inches in height.

To me, these things are of little to no significance in terms of evaluation. And remember, McCloughlan was the guy who hand picked Russel Wilson.
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Re: With the 1st pick in the 2018 NFL Draft the Cleveland Br

Postby Bootz2004 » Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:34 am

MJW wrote:
Phantom Phenom wrote:In an October radio interview, Browns consultant Scot McCloughan revealed that he rated Oklahoma's Baker Mayfield as the top quarterback in the 2018 draft.

McCloughan's front-office career began in Green Bay with Brett Favre. "He reminds me of a shorter version of Brett Favre," McCloughan said. "Tough guy. He can throw it. And he's very confident, and he's not afraid whatsoever, whatsoever. He's a battler. I know saying Brett Favre's a big name, and I was around him for a while, but this guy (Mayfield) has talent." Per the Cleveland Plain Dealer, "word circulated at the Senior Bowl last month" that McCloughan was "talking up Mayfield" to new Browns GM John Dorsey.


I feel so bad for Browns fans. I pray for their sake this is a smokescreen.


Why? Mayfield very well could be the top QB in this draft.
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Re: With the 1st pick in the 2018 NFL Draft the Cleveland Br

Postby DreadNaught » Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:42 am

real bucs fan wrote:And remember, McCloughlan was the guy who hand picked Russel Wilson.


If not for his off-field issues with alcohol McCloughlan would be regarded as (one of) the best GM in the NFL. The fact teams continue to keep him around is a testament to the value he brings to a personnel department.

I'm a big fan of the hires the Browns have made this offseason for that front office and expect the turnaround for that franchise will be quick.
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Re: With the 1st pick in the 2018 NFL Draft the Cleveland Br

Postby real bucs fan » Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:44 am

I agree on McCloughlan, but turning around that Browns team will be no small feat.
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Re: With the 1st pick in the 2018 NFL Draft the Cleveland Br

Postby MJW » Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:01 am

real bucs fan wrote:
MJW wrote:
So, if a lot of things were different, and if you totally overlook some other things too...he's a good pick.

I think you're making my case for me.

I'm talking 2 things:

1. Johnny Manziel. His existence shouldn't factor into a Mayfield evaluation.
2. 1.5 inches in height.

To me, these things are of little to no significance in terms of evaluation. And remember, McCloughlan was the guy who hand picked Russel Wilson.


Please just bookmark this response, because I don't want to have to re-write it every time someone falls in love with Baker Mayfield over the next 79 days:

Manziel isn't the first or only quarterback in NFL history who had maturity issues derail his career. Let's not act like "character concerns" didn't exist before Johnny Manziel, and maturity questions are a plus for a quarterback prospect.

But I'll let that go. There's no point, and that doesn't bother me that much. He's young and dumb, but there's no reason to assume he won't grow up a bit.,

As for the height issue, I pointed this out elsewhere but we've only had a few quarterbacks in modern NFL history drafted in the first round (much less #1 overall) who were less than 6'2 (much less as short as Mayfield):

Michael Vick
Johnny Manziel
Rex Grossman
Cade McNown
Jim McMahon

That's all of them, and with the exception of Vick, all of them were drafted much later than #1, and all of them were bigger than Mayfield is. There's a reason.

The Russell Wilson thing, to me, is like saying, "There's no reason to think a fat running back can't be good - look at Jerome Bettis!" On a long enough timeline, rules get broken occasionally. But using that as the basis for ignoring them will, by definition, backfire more often than not.

But you know what? His HEIGHT isn't even what bothers me most.

What bothers me most is we're talking about yet another college QB who didn't take snaps under center, and who didn't call protections, who got his audibles from the sideline, and who wasn't asked to go through natural pass progressions. Oh, and who made hay in a conference that doesn't play any defense.

So, now we're projecting:
That he's tall enough to operate in an NFL offense.
That he's going to keep on the straight and narrow.
That he's going to be able to play under center.
That he's going to be able to call protections, audible, and go through NFL progressions.

That's too much for me to buy into the John Madden schtick about how he's "just a good football player." It's bad math that becomes TERRIBLE math when when remembers there are two really outstanding prospects in this class who have much fewer questions: Josh Rosen and Sam Darnold. They have great size (along with great arms.) There are no character flags for either guy. Rosen played for a former NFL head coach in a pseudo NFL offense. Darnold has more questions in that regard, but there were still more NFL concepts in Tee Martin's scheme than anything they did in Norman.

When faced with these choices, I'll go over the two guys whose games and profiles are MUCH easier projections to the next level than the guy who might be the exception to a lot of rules. Maybe I'll be wrong this time. Unlike Bootz, I accept that it happens sometimes. But I'd still follow the same logic through next time, and I'll be right more often than not.
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Re: With the 1st pick in the 2018 NFL Draft the Cleveland Br

Postby DreadNaught » Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:09 am

real bucs fan wrote:I agree on McCloughlan, but turning around that Browns team will be no small feat.


Agreed, but it starts with hiring the right people to make the football decisions imo and it's tough find better options than Dorsey or McCoughlan. Not to mention some of the younger personnel guys they added.

Between the vast amount of cap space and draft capital these guys are inheriting I expect the turnaround to be quick.

Browns have a very good Oline anchored by a future 1st ballot HoF Left Tackle, A stud EDGE rusher in Myles Garrett, and a potential stud WR1 IF Josh Gordon can stay on the right track. So it's not like the roster is complete train wreck. They obviously need to figure the QB position, but if they do I can see them have a quick rise.
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Re: With the 1st pick in the 2018 NFL Draft the Cleveland Br

Postby beardmcdoug » Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:00 pm

Browns have the 1 and 4

They should go Barkley with the 1 and take whatever QB is there at 4. Rosen is probably the pick at 2 for the Giants. And if I'm the Browns, I take Mayfield over Darnold and Allen
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Re: With the 1st pick in the 2018 NFL Draft the Cleveland Br

Postby Teitan » Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:02 pm

beardmcdoug wrote:Browns have the 1 and 4

They should go Barkley with the 1 and take whatever QB is there at 4. Rosen is probably the pick at 2 for the Giants. And if I'm the Browns, I take Mayfield over Darnold and Allen



The QB is far more important. Get the one you want with #1 and take the best player at 4.
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Re: With the 1st pick in the 2018 NFL Draft the Cleveland Br

Postby beardmcdoug » Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:05 pm

Teitan wrote:
beardmcdoug wrote:Browns have the 1 and 4

They should go Barkley with the 1 and take whatever QB is there at 4. Rosen is probably the pick at 2 for the Giants. And if I'm the Browns, I take Mayfield over Darnold and Allen



The QB is far more important. Get the one you want with #1 and take the best player at 4.


yeah, I get that, but there's only 1 clear cut top RB, and the difference between Rosen, Darnold, Allen and Mayfield is up for debate. They need an RB to take the pressure off that new QB and Barkley's the kind of RB that could very well get snatched up before they pick again at 4. With a real downfield threat in Josh Gordon and their solid o-line, they could be REAL nasty if they add both a top flight QB and top flight RB together - and the only guaranteed way to do that is to take Barkley first (assuming you place Barkley that far above guys like Guice and Michel - which I think most do)

I see your point - we may just have to disagree on philosophy though
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Re: With the 1st pick in the 2018 NFL Draft the Cleveland Br

Postby Super K » Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:29 pm

All the Brownie fans I know are clamoring for Cousins...and they have a BOATLOAD of cash to throw at him and make him feel loved...

Sign Cousins

Draft Barkley #1 to help spark the offense..

At #4 draft Chubb to pair with Garret on D or, if he's gone, Nelson/Williams to solidify the OLine...

A Garret, Chubb, Ogbah, Shelton, Nassib, Brantley, Orchard DL passrush rotation/group is flat out badass... somebody's gonna get killed...
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Re: With the 1st pick in the 2018 NFL Draft the Cleveland Br

Postby beardmcdoug » Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:35 pm

yeah, true, that'd be a great move too


seems like the Browns may finally turn the cor...


ah who am I kidding, they'll find a way to Browns this thing up
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Re: With the 1st pick in the 2018 NFL Draft the Cleveland Br

Postby Nano » Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:30 pm

They just went 0-16 but they're probably closer to turning the corner than we are
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Re: With the 1st pick in the 2018 NFL Draft the Cleveland Br

Postby Jason Bourne » Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:43 pm

Browns will draft Barkley #1 ...and he will hold out
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Re: With the 1st pick in the 2018 NFL Draft the Cleveland Br

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:32 pm

What bothers me most is we're talking about yet another college QB who didn't take snaps under center, and who didn't call protections, who got his audibles from the sideline, and who wasn't asked to go through natural pass progressions. Oh, and who made hay in a conference that doesn't play any defense.


Exact same argument was made against Mariota.
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Re: With the 1st pick in the 2018 NFL Draft the Cleveland Br

Postby uscbucsfan » Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:18 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
What bothers me most is we're talking about yet another college QB who didn't take snaps under center, and who didn't call protections, who got his audibles from the sideline, and who wasn't asked to go through natural pass progressions. Oh, and who made hay in a conference that doesn't play any defense.


Exact same argument was made against Mariota.


Mariota isn't exactly a shining example...

Plus Mariota was bigger, faster, with a bigger arm.
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Re: With the 1st pick in the 2018 NFL Draft the Cleveland Br

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:09 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Exact same argument was made against Mariota.


Mariota isn't exactly a shining example...

Plus Mariota was bigger, faster, with a bigger arm.


But size and arm strength weren't the argument. The "never takes snaps under center and doesn't read defenses, call protections, or call audibles" was.

The criticism of the systems those men played in was the point. And while the point does have merit in that those transitions are difficult to make, it's in no way a foregone conclusion that it is impossible to do so.
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Re: With the 1st pick in the 2018 NFL Draft the Cleveland Br

Postby uscbucsfan » Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:34 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:
Mariota isn't exactly a shining example...

Plus Mariota was bigger, faster, with a bigger arm.


But size and arm strength weren't the argument. The "never takes snaps under center and doesn't read defenses, call protections, or call audibles" was.

The criticism of the systems those men played in was the point. And while the point does have merit in that those transitions are difficult to make, it's in no way a foregone conclusion that it is impossible to do so.


My biggest point is Mariota hasn't made that transition well.
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Re: With the 1st pick in the 2018 NFL Draft the Cleveland Br

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:42 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:
But size and arm strength weren't the argument. The "never takes snaps under center and doesn't read defenses, call protections, or call audibles" was.

The criticism of the systems those men played in was the point. And while the point does have merit in that those transitions are difficult to make, it's in no way a foregone conclusion that it is impossible to do so.


My biggest point is Mariota hasn't made that transition well.

Well, if we go to far down that road we'll derail yet another thread. ;)
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Re: With the 1st pick in the 2018 NFL Draft the Cleveland Br

Postby Bootz2004 » Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:44 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:
But size and arm strength weren't the argument. The "never takes snaps under center and doesn't read defenses, call protections, or call audibles" was.

The criticism of the systems those men played in was the point. And while the point does have merit in that those transitions are difficult to make, it's in no way a foregone conclusion that it is impossible to do so.


My biggest point is Mariota hasn't made that transition well.


So that means Baker won't?
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Re: With the 1st pick in the 2018 NFL Draft the Cleveland Br

Postby uscbucsfan » Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:46 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:
My biggest point is Mariota hasn't made that transition well.


So that means Baker won't?


Did I say that?

I just said Mariota isn't the best example. Players from those systems carry more risk because of their failure rate, but there are examples of success.
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Re: With the 1st pick in the 2018 NFL Draft the Cleveland Br

Postby DreadNaught » Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:11 pm

QBs that have a negative TD/INT ratio in their 3rd NFL (or later) season = suck. I can give them a pass as a rookie, and maybe even in year 2 under certain conditions I suppose. But anyone defending Mariota as more than below average starting QB needs to explain why Mariota is getting special treatment OR what other QB had a negative TD/INT ratio in year 3 or later who they think didn't suck also.

Mariota sucks.
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Re: With the 1st pick in the 2018 NFL Draft the Cleveland Br

Postby Naismith » Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:25 pm

Super K wrote:Sign Cousins

Draft Barkley #1 to help spark the offense..


If they don't take a QB at #1, they should never take Barkley there because he will always be available at 4 in that scenario.
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Re: With the 1st pick in the 2018 NFL Draft the Cleveland Br

Postby real bucs fan » Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:26 pm

Naismith wrote:
Super K wrote:Sign Cousins

Draft Barkley #1 to help spark the offense..


If they don't take a QB at #1, they should never take Barkley there because he will always be available at 4 in that scenario.

I think there's a very real chance the Colts trade down with a team targeting Mayfield....
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Re: With the 1st pick in the 2018 NFL Draft the Cleveland Br

Postby Super K » Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:31 pm

Naismith wrote:
Super K wrote:Sign Cousins

Draft Barkley #1 to help spark the offense..


If they don't take a QB at #1, they should never take Barkley there because he will always be available at 4 in that scenario.


More than likely...

Switch Chubb and Barkley then in my example I guess...

But if I'm Cleveland, I do NOT trade back...you have picks 1 and 4..take 2 of the elite guys, don't get cute (like ya did last year you jamokes)...
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Re: With the 1st pick in the 2018 NFL Draft the Cleveland Br

Postby Naismith » Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:34 pm

I wouldn't think they'd sign Cousins unless they don't love a QB in the draft, but if they do sign him, they're pretty much going to have to trade out of one of their two picks. The value will just be way too high.
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Re: With the 1st pick in the 2018 NFL Draft the Cleveland Br

Postby Super K » Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:43 pm

Naismith wrote:I wouldn't think they'd sign Cousins unless they don't love a QB in the draft, but if they do sign him, they're pretty much going to have to trade out of one of their two picks. The value will just be way too high.


They already have 12 damn picks in the draft...they don't need anymore picks, they need elite, talented players..

Stay right where you're at and select the best of the best..

And if someone wants to trade up, it'll probably be someone other than the NYG, meaning Cleveland will drop far enough back that Indy could take whom they really wanted right in front of them (because they have their QB too)..

No, stay put and pick..tell everyone else to go **** themselves
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