Players we should be watching (2018)

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Re: Players we should be watching (2018)

Postby real bucs fan » Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:26 pm

Alpha wrote:
real bucs fan wrote:Or perhaps... if you put a top guy behind that line....



You can dress a turd in Armani...that doesn't make it any less of a turd.

The O-line is the turd. Just because you need it spelled out for you.

Peyton Barber doesn't have a terrible time behind it...
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Re: Players we should be watching (2018)

Postby Cheb » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:07 pm

real bucs fan wrote:
Alpha wrote:

You can dress a turd in Armani...that doesn't make it any less of a turd.

The O-line is the turd. Just because you need it spelled out for you.

Peyton Barber doesn't have a terrible time behind it...


He barely got 100 yards rushing.

#crushingit
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Re: Players we should be watching (2018)

Postby Alpha » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:52 pm

Cheb wrote:
real bucs fan wrote:Peyton Barber doesn't have a terrible time behind it...


He barely got 100 yards rushing.

#crushingit


I think the rest of us would agree that you build and sustain a team from the O/D lines out.

And most of us see where we are vis a vis the state of our O and D lines.

Leave it to RBF to argue that the RB is the key to success.

:roll:
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Re: Players we should be watching (2018)

Postby real bucs fan » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:24 am

I love how inconsistant the arguments are...

Doug Martin sucks... fix the oline!

Peyton Barber does well... oline doing great!
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Re: Players we should be watching (2018)

Postby theBKwhopper » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:59 am

real bucs fan wrote:I love how inconsistant the arguments are...

Doug Martin sucks... fix the oline!

Peyton Barber does well... oline doing great!

Are people actually praising our Oline? I honestly haven't seen much of it. They're probably not as bad as they seem, but at the very best, we have terrible depth there. We need to focus the draft on the trenches. Mainly pass rush. Brad Chubb is my top guy early on.
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Re: Players we should be watching (2018)

Postby mdb1958 » Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:06 am

Alpha wrote:
Cheb wrote:
He barely got 100 yards rushing.

#crushingit


I think the rest of us would agree that you build and sustain a team from the O/D lines out.

And most of us see where we are vis a vis the state of our O and D lines.

Leave it to RBF to argue that the RB is the key to success.

:roll:



I think the defensive line can be improved without to much trouble.
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Re: Players we should be watching (2018)

Postby DreadNaught » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:20 am

With Gerald McCoy out these last 3 games and the Bucs facing Ryan-Newton-Brees who are all 8-5/9-4 and chasing the playoffs I think the odds are good we'll finish 4-12 and have a top 5 pick.

Our 4 man pass rush is as bad as I can remember for any 4-3 base defense. We need a complete atleast 2 (3 if Ayers doesn't return) EDGE defenders this offseason.

I'm at the point of wanting to overpay for a Demarcus Lawrence in FA, in addition to drafting Bradley Chubb.
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Re: Players we should be watching (2018)

Postby Brazen331 » Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:00 am

DreadNaught wrote:With Gerald McCoy out these last 3 games and the Bucs facing Ryan-Newton-Brees who are all 8-5/9-4 and chasing the playoffs I think the odds are good we'll finish 4-12 and have a top 5 pick.

Our 4 man pass rush is as bad as I can remember for any 4-3 base defense. We need a complete atleast 2 (3 if Ayers doesn't return) EDGE defenders this offseason.

I'm at the point of wanting to overpay for a Demarcus Lawrence in FA, in addition to drafting Bradley Chubb.


You would not only be overpaying but overdrafting in that scenario but Chubb's physique and play style does counterbalance those of Spence fairly well I think. I don't like to prioritize need in the 1st but we are beyond needy. I think it's a forgone conclusion that we are going to see 1,000 passing yards piled up against us and stainless QB jerseys in these next 3 games so prime pick for sure.

Best case scenario for this pick though, would be Darnold or Allen still on the board and having another team laden with draft capital thinking that's their guy.
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Re: Players we should be watching (2018)

Postby real bucs fan » Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:44 am

DreadNaught wrote:With Gerald McCoy out these last 3 games and the Bucs facing Ryan-Newton-Brees who are all 8-5/9-4 and chasing the playoffs I think the odds are good we'll finish 4-12 and have a top 5 pick.

Our 4 man pass rush is as bad as I can remember for any 4-3 base defense. We need a complete atleast 2 (3 if Ayers doesn't return) EDGE defenders this offseason.

I'm at the point of wanting to overpay for a Demarcus Lawrence in FA, in addition to drafting Bradley Chubb.

Do you think Spence is done?

There are only two edge players on the field at a time remember. I wouldn't be against this scenario at all though. I've been calling for signing Lawrence and view Chubb as the best player in the draft at the moment.
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Re: Players we should be watching (2018)

Postby DreadNaught » Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:56 am

real bucs fan wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:With Gerald McCoy out these last 3 games and the Bucs facing Ryan-Newton-Brees who are all 8-5/9-4 and chasing the playoffs I think the odds are good we'll finish 4-12 and have a top 5 pick.

Our 4 man pass rush is as bad as I can remember for any 4-3 base defense. We need a complete atleast 2 (3 if Ayers doesn't return) EDGE defenders this offseason.

I'm at the point of wanting to overpay for a Demarcus Lawrence in FA, in addition to drafting Bradley Chubb.

Do you think Spence is done?

There are only two edge players on the field at a time remember. I wouldn't be against this scenario at all though. I've been calling for signing Lawrence and view Chubb as the best player in the draft at the moment.


Definitely do not think Noah Spence is done. But also would be reckless to rely on him to be anything more than a situational rusher until he proves he can relied upon for more than that role.

Gholston is also a situational player.

Ayers is likely gone.

The other DEs are all trash and I don't care to see the Ryan Russell and Will Clarkes of the world back in 2018.

We need 2 starting level impact players at DE that can rush the QB. We'll be in position to draft one, I think we need add a good one in FA also even if we 'overpay'.

As far as trading down, we'll see. I don't want to trade down and miss out on Chubb or Key.
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Re: Players we should be watching (2018)

Postby MJW » Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:05 am

DreadNaught wrote:
real bucs fan wrote:Do you think Spence is done?

There are only two edge players on the field at a time remember. I wouldn't be against this scenario at all though. I've been calling for signing Lawrence and view Chubb as the best player in the draft at the moment.


Definitely do not think Noah Spence is done. But also would be reckless to rely on him to be anything more than a situational rusher until he proves he can relied upon for more than that role.

Gholston is also a situational player.

Ayers is likely gone.

The other DEs are all trash and I don't care to see the Ryan Russell and Will Clarkes of the world back in 2018.

We need 2 starting level impact players at DE that can rush the QB. We'll be in position to draft one, I think we need add a good one in FA also even if we 'overpay'.

As far as trading down, we'll see. I don't want to trade down and miss out on Chubb or Key.


I doubt even a B+ rusher is going to find free agency. Lawrence will get paid in Dallas. Ziggy Ansah will likely be the prize. There is strong Michael Johnson danger in this free agent group of pass rushers.
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Re: Players we should be watching (2018)

Postby DreadNaught » Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:21 am

Cowboys don't have much cap flexability, but I'd think they try to re-sign Lawrence somehow. It will be interesting to see how they maneuver that situation. Lawrence may very well want to test FA to see what his market is regardless and I doubt the Cowboys will commi to placing the franchise tag on Lawrence.

Unfortunately the Bucs have put themselves in a desperate 'need' position at DE. You just can't win football games when your 4 man pass rush is this inept. QBs are too good and rules makes too easy for opposing offenses if you can't harrass the QB.
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Re: Players we should be watching (2018)

Postby Bootz2004 » Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:36 am

We need pass rush help as badly as we needed a QB in 2015. Forget sacks. Just watch the tape. Our pass rush does absolutely nothing in terms of making the QB uncomfortable. The only time I remember seeing Stafford hit the turf yesterday was when Ryan Russell hit him well after he threw a pass. Demarcus Lawrence, Chubb, Key, etc. We need a ton of help. 1 or 2 guys isn't going to fix it. And no I'm not relying on Noah Spence. He is exactly who I thought he was. A quick 1st step with no skill in terms of rushing the passer and he does zero against the run.
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Re: Players we should be watching (2018)

Postby DreadNaught » Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:52 am

Bootz2004 wrote:We need pass rush help as badly as we needed a QB in 2015. Forget sacks. Just watch the tape. Our pass rush does absolutely nothing in terms of making the QB uncomfortable. The only time I remember seeing Stafford hit the turf yesterday was when Ryan Russell hit him well after he threw a pass. Demarcus Lawrence, Chubb, Key, etc. We need a ton of help. 1 or 2 guys isn't going to fix it. And no I'm not relying on Noah Spence. He is exactly who I thought he was. A quick 1st step with no skill in terms of rushing the passer and he does zero against the run.


I'm not sure it can be 'fixed' in one offseason since rookie pass rushers rarely hit double digit sacks. But adding a Chubb/Key along with a Lawrence/Ansah would infuse some MUCH needed talent at the position.

Noah Spence and Will Gholston are rotational players, as far as I'm concerned we need two new starters at DE.
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Re: Players we should be watching (2018)

Postby Bootz2004 » Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:57 am

DreadNaught wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:We need pass rush help as badly as we needed a QB in 2015. Forget sacks. Just watch the tape. Our pass rush does absolutely nothing in terms of making the QB uncomfortable. The only time I remember seeing Stafford hit the turf yesterday was when Ryan Russell hit him well after he threw a pass. Demarcus Lawrence, Chubb, Key, etc. We need a ton of help. 1 or 2 guys isn't going to fix it. And no I'm not relying on Noah Spence. He is exactly who I thought he was. A quick 1st step with no skill in terms of rushing the passer and he does zero against the run.


I'm not sure it can be 'fixed' in one offseason since rookie pass rushers rarely hit double digit sacks. But adding a Chubb/Key along with a Lawrence/Ansah would infuse some MUCH needed talent at the position.

Noah Spence and Will Gholston are rotational players, as far as I'm concerned we need two new starters at DE.


The numbers are irrelevant at this point. We don't disrupt the pocket. We don't get QBs off their mark. We don't pressure them into early throws. We don't get (clean)hits on QBs. It may not get fixed in 1 off-season but we have to start somewhere. We can't just keep ignoring this obvious problem we've had for such a long time. Since Simeon Rice left really. Sacks isn't the only way to effect the QB.
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Re: Players we should be watching (2018)

Postby DreadNaught » Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:17 am

Bootz2004 wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
I'm not sure it can be 'fixed' in one offseason since rookie pass rushers rarely hit double digit sacks. But adding a Chubb/Key along with a Lawrence/Ansah would infuse some MUCH needed talent at the position.

Noah Spence and Will Gholston are rotational players, as far as I'm concerned we need two new starters at DE.


The numbers are irrelevant at this point. We don't disrupt the pocket. We don't get QBs off their mark. We don't pressure them into early throws. We don't get (clean)hits on QBs. It may not get fixed in 1 off-season but we have to start somewhere. We can't just keep ignoring this obvious problem we've had for such a long time. Since Simeon Rice left really. Sacks isn't the only way to effect the QB.


I'm agreeing with you. Just pointing out rookie pass rushers shouldn't be expected come in and be a fix in year one and that we need more than just a talented top 10 pick at DE next year.

We need multiple talented dudes to come in and beat the 1v1 pass rush situations they get. Watching McCoy get doubled every single passing play an nobody else able to get off their blocks is frustrating to watch.
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Re: Players we should be watching (2018)

Postby Bootz2004 » Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:20 am

DreadNaught wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
The numbers are irrelevant at this point. We don't disrupt the pocket. We don't get QBs off their mark. We don't pressure them into early throws. We don't get (clean)hits on QBs. It may not get fixed in 1 off-season but we have to start somewhere. We can't just keep ignoring this obvious problem we've had for such a long time. Since Simeon Rice left really. Sacks isn't the only way to effect the QB.


I'm agreeing with you. Just pointing out rookie pass rushers shouldn't be expected come in and be a fix in year one and that we need more than just a talented top 10 pick at DE next year.

We need multiple talented dudes to come in and beat the 1v1 pass rush situations they get. Watching McCoy get doubled every single passing play an nobody else able to get off their blocks is frustrating to watch.


Speaking of that how much longer do we have a Gerald McCoy playing at an elite level?? He'll be 30 in February, has 8+ years on that body and just suffered another serious injury. Might not be too soon to start looking for his replacement or at least a guy who can do some of the things he can.
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Re: Players we should be watching (2018)

Postby DreadNaught » Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:32 am

Bootz2004 wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
I'm agreeing with you. Just pointing out rookie pass rushers shouldn't be expected come in and be a fix in year one and that we need more than just a talented top 10 pick at DE next year.

We need multiple talented dudes to come in and beat the 1v1 pass rush situations they get. Watching McCoy get doubled every single passing play an nobody else able to get off their blocks is frustrating to watch.


Speaking of that how much longer do we have a Gerald McCoy playing at an elite level?? He'll be 30 in February, has 8+ years on that body and just suffered another serious injury. Might not be too soon to start looking for his replacement or at least a guy who can do some of the things he can.


Great point and all the more reason to seriously address the DE position. In regards to McCoy he's still an elite DT in the NFL but father time is rarely kind to interior D-linemen. McCoy's explosiveness is what make him elite and that is often the first thing that deteriorates has a player ages. That said McCoy's injuries have been of the upper body variety which is better than severe knee/ankle/foot injuries that are often debilitating the older you get.

I think McCoy has 1-2 more years of being what he is, which is a top 3-5 interior D-linemen in the NFL. We need to get this man some help on the D-line.
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Re: Players we should be watching (2018)

Postby Doctor » Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:36 am

You guys do know there are more DE's in this class outside Chubb and Key right?
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Re: Players we should be watching (2018)

Postby DreadNaught » Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:45 am

Doctor wrote:You guys do know there are more DE's in this class outside Chubb and Key right?


The thread is titled "Players we should be watching" and Chubb/Key are two of the top EDGE prospects for a team that will be drafting in the top 10 and has dire need for a DE.

As the draft process plays itself out we'll better understand the depth at of class at every position and those prospects will get more attention, but since it's still Dec and we're 4-9 the focus is naturally on the top prospects.

Feel free to interject with any takes on other prospects that we should be watching.
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Re: Players we should be watching (2018)

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:22 am

Hercules Mata'afa DE, Washington State. 6'2 255

Wicked first step. Uses speed to get around bigger defenders and they even have him shoot the A gap from time to time.

Watch him shoot inside the RT at 4:50 and practically take the handoff.

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Re: Players we should be watching (2018)

Postby Bootz2004 » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:18 pm

Doctor wrote:You guys do know there are more DE's in this class outside Chubb and Key right?


Yes. We're discussing them now. So unless you want to throw more names into the discussion.....Nevermind. More than happy to discuss other guys at the position. We're simply talking about the top guys in this draft because we have a chance at getting 1 of them.
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Re: Players we should be watching (2018)

Postby Alpha » Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:10 am

real bucs fan wrote:I love how inconsistant the arguments are...

Doug Martin sucks... fix the oline!

Peyton Barber does well... oline doing great!


Hardly, tool.

Barber is a very different back than Martin.

The point was, you could put either one of us behind a great o-line and look like a Pro-Bowler. You don't need a "great" RB more than you "need" a great o-line.

Anyone who has played or coached the position knows this to be true.

A stud o-line makes a "good" RB great...and a great RB a HoF'er.
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Re: Players we should be watching (2018)

Postby real bucs fan » Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:10 am

Alpha wrote:
real bucs fan wrote:I love how inconsistant the arguments are...

Doug Martin sucks... fix the oline!

Peyton Barber does well... oline doing great!


Hardly, tool.

Barber is a very different back than Martin.

The point was, you could put either one of us behind a great o-line and look like a Pro-Bowler. You don't need a "great" RB more than you "need" a great o-line.

Anyone who has played or coached the position knows this to be true.

A stud o-line makes a "good" RB great...and a great RB a HoF'er.

Except that isn't true lol. Believe it or not, talent at RB matters.

And it's also alot easier to fix a problem at RB with 1 guy than it is to fix an OL where the 5 man unit is only as strong as it's weakest link.

I also believe getting a LG for this unit will do wonders, as that is our units weakest link by far. Smith and Marpet will have another year under their respective belts, while Sweezy will be further removed from his back surgery (and thus should have an offseason of a full lifting program to get his dominating strength back).
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Re: Players we should be watching (2018)

Postby Deuce » Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:04 pm

I see Derwin James going in the 14-16 range in a lot of mocks. My prediction: After the combine, he'll be a locked-in top 10 guy.

(Not advocating that the Bucs take him.)
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Re: Players we should be watching (2018)

Postby Bootz2004 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:07 pm

Why are people against Derwin James?
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Re: Players we should be watching (2018)

Postby Selmon Rules » Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:19 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:Why are people against Derwin James?

Most people, myself included, believe that a pass rush will do more for the pass D than any one player we could draft in the secondary. So it's not so much being against James as it is wanting someone on the line that improves everyone in the secondary. You may or may not agree with the logic....
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Re: Players we should be watching (2018)

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:26 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:Why are people against Derwin James?

I'm only against him in the first round. He's not Jalen Ramsey.
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Re: Players we should be watching (2018)

Postby Bootz2004 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:35 pm

Selmon Rules wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:Why are people against Derwin James?

Most people, myself included, believe that a pass rush will do more for the pass D than any one player we could draft in the secondary. So it's not so much being against James as it is wanting someone on the line that improves everyone in the secondary. You may or may not agree with the logic....


No I'm in that same boat that the pass rush needs to be a priority. But it seems like people don't like James as a prospect and are listing reasons why he's not that good. He's probably the best pure safety in this draft.
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Re: Players we should be watching (2018)

Postby Bootz2004 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:35 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:Why are people against Derwin James?

I'm only against him in the first round. He's not Jalen Ramsey.


Ramsey is a better corner than safety. James is a better safety.
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