Who do you NOT want?

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Re: Who do you NOT want?

Postby Bootz2004 » Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:34 am

GameTime wrote:
Alpha wrote:I also agree with MJ. Howard is one of those guys that are "gonna be great when he gets to the league". I keep hearing about his "talent"...but in COLLEGE...he really didn't do jack-shit. I'll take Njoku...who may be less "NFL ready" NOW...but has actually PRODUCED in college.

I think this is a little unfair. Howard has more catches and yards over the last 2 seasons compared to njoku. Less TDs. Could it have something to do with UM having kaaya and Bama having a true freshman? Could it be something entirely different? Njoku definitely had a better statline his freshman and sophomore seasons compared to howard. But simply saying that howard didnt produce is unfair imo. Thats like saying mike evans didnt produce in Winstons rookie year.


Njoku had more TDs last season than Howard had in 4 years. If you do a per year average of their time in college it's not even close. Njoku out paces Howard.
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Re: Who do you NOT want?

Postby Nano » Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:41 am

DreadNaught wrote:
Alpha wrote:Needless to say...Cook is the one player I'd remove from my board. I don't want him...even as an UDFA.


Hyperbole or satire? Seems a tad extreme even if you don't like the concerns w/ Cook.

He compares his actions to Rae Carruth, tad extreme doesn't even begin to cover it.
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Re: Who do you NOT want?

Postby GameTime » Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:35 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:Njoku had more TDs last season than Howard had in 4 years. If you do a per year average of their time in college it's not even close. Njoku out paces Howard.

So production simply equals TDs? When i think of production, i also think of catches, yards, 3rd down conversions. I think TDs can often be a byproduct of the team moreso than one individual. Like i mentioned, how do we explain mike evans not producing in 2015?

Njoku clearly burst onto the scene, i think i mentioned that. I have no issues with folks choosing njoku over howard. I wouldnt, simply because i wonder about njokus hands and blocking more than i worry about Howard's TD numbers or freshman stats. At the same time, id be thrilled with njokus potential if we draft him.

I just dont think its fair to say howard didnt produce.
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Re: Who do you NOT want?

Postby Buc2 » Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:43 pm

Doctor wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:Two guys that immediately come to mind as guys I said OMG NO! are Dewayne Smoot (Illinois) and Adam Bisnowaty.(Pitt)

Smoot could fall quite a bit. I'd chance it in Day 3.

Has anyone told you your spastic avatar is annoying as ****?


No? Then let me be the first. :lol:
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Re: Who do you NOT want?

Postby Bootz2004 » Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:45 pm

GameTime wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:Njoku had more TDs last season than Howard had in 4 years. If you do a per year average of their time in college it's not even close. Njoku out paces Howard.

So production simply equals TDs? When i think of production, i also think of catches, yards, 3rd down conversions. I think TDs can often be a byproduct of the team moreso than one individual. Like i mentioned, how do we explain mike evans not producing in 2015?

Njoku clearly burst onto the scene, i think i mentioned that. I have no issues with folks choosing njoku over howard. I wouldnt, simply because i wonder about njokus hands and blocking more than i worry about Howard's TD numbers or freshman stats. At the same time, id be thrilled with njokus potential if we draft him.

I just dont think its fair to say howard didnt produce.


As I also said which you failed to read IF YOU DO A PER YEAR AVERAGE OF THEIR TIME IN COLLEGE ITS NOT EVEN CLOSE. NJOKU OUTPACES HOWARD.
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Re: Who do you NOT want?

Postby GameTime » Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:57 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:As I also said which you failed to read IF YOU DO A PER YEAR AVERAGE OF THEIR TIME IN COLLEGE ITS NOT EVEN CLOSE. NJOKU OUTPACES HOWARD.

I definitely agree with you. If you do a per year average of their time in college its not even close, njoku outpaces howard. I just dont think that has anything to do with anything. If i was a GM i would put much more stock into 2015 and 2016 rather than 2013 and 2014. I also dont think the statement that njoku outpaces on a per year average has anything to do with production, at least in the present. (Note: unless of course production only applies to TDs)
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Re: Who do you NOT want?

Postby terrytate » Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:36 pm

Doctor wrote:
Alpha wrote:

Let's call this what it is:

Mixon had ONE bad decision (EXTREMELY) when he was 17 years old...and it was caught on tape. THAT is what is damning him currently. And there are even reports that he'll STILL go in the first.

He has been clean since and BEFORE. Cook, on the other hand, has never been "convicted" of anything but has had MULTIPLE instances of poor decision making and by the Grace of God, he's escaped scott-free.

I'd take Mixon over Cook EVERY time.

Needless to say...Cook is the one player I'd remove from my board. I don't want him...even as an UDFA. Dude is a time bomb waiting to happen.

I also agree with MJ. Howard is one of those guys that are "gonna be great when he gets to the league". I keep hearing about his "talent"...but in COLLEGE...he really didn't do jack-shit. I'll take Njoku...who may be less "NFL ready" NOW...but has actually PRODUCED in college.

This draft seems to be full of guys who "might be really good. Eventually" and not a lot of guys who are "studs" right now.

Wouldn't shock me to see the best player in this draft come out of the 4th/5th/6th round.

While I get what you are saying, college production means squat on its own. Look at so many productive college players that have gone on to do nothing. And the reverse is also true. Gaines Adams had more sacks in his last two years at Clemson than JJ Watt and Cameron Wake did their whole college careers combine. Production isn't the end all, you have to go deeper asking WHY a player produced or didn't produce. Was it a system thing? Miscasted? Misused? Product of talent around him? Untouched for 5 yards every run?

Every player is a "might be really good". No guy is a "stud" right now. Maybe they were college studs, sure. But we don't care about college studs, we're looking for NFL studs. None had taken a single NFL snap.


This is the truth. It is opinion shared by many, including myself, that Howard got so few receiving touches because Kiffin likes his TE's to block. When he did get touches, he wrecked people. A byproduct is that we KNOW he can block like a man. In short, the statbook may not show Howard as a big time receiving threat but his film does. Howard would be solid gold on this offense.

I am not sure if there is anyone that I flat out don't want, including Mixon. I do know I don't want Engram or McCaffrey at 19. In fact, I don't think I'd want either of them in the second either. From what film I've seen of McCaffrey, he seems like a guy who is going to hit the wall when he runs into the speed of NFL defenses. He doesn't compare to a guy like Cook when comes to explosiveness or suddenness. Engram may well be a good player but there will be plenty of TE's to take that are just as talented and a better fit for us.
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Re: Who do you NOT want?

Postby MJW » Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:26 pm

Howard is an every-down tight end, and his blocking is superb. I mean that. But he's not that guy. You know who he is? Marcedes Lewis has been used. How about Kyle Brady? Heck, how about a RICH MAN'S Kyle Brady? High pick. Excellent blocker, able to snag some TDs and catch 3 or 4 passes a game. An asset to every team he played for.

But you know what? Give me the 4.45 dude who can catch 90 passes a year, even if he is a mediocre blocker. I'll learn to live with it.
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Re: Who do you NOT want?

Postby threadkiller » Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:53 pm

MJW wrote:Howard is an every-down tight end, and his blocking is superb. I mean that. But he's not that guy. You know who he is? Marcedes Lewis has been used. How about Kyle Brady? Heck, how about a RICH MAN'S Kyle Brady? High pick. Excellent blocker, able to snag some TDs and catch 3 or 4 passes a game. An asset to every team he played for.

But you know what? Give me the 4.45 dude who can catch 90 passes a year, even if he is a mediocre blocker. I'll learn to live with it.


If we get the rich man's Kyle Brady at 19, that would be a bad thing? If your 90 catch guy can't be the only TE only the field and still give us a chance to run, I'll take Kyle with 4.5 speed, thanks. I don't think we will get the choice, unfortunately.

Also, I've seen several people question whether Howard will be a productive NFL receiver, but haven't seen anything questioning his hands. Did you see him drop very much? I haven't in the games I've seen. He's looked solid when targeted, imo.
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Re: Who do you NOT want?

Postby terrytate » Fri Apr 14, 2017 12:49 am

MJW wrote:Howard is an every-down tight end, and his blocking is superb. I mean that. But he's not that guy. You know who he is? Marcedes Lewis has been used. How about Kyle Brady? Heck, how about a RICH MAN'S Kyle Brady? High pick. Excellent blocker, able to snag some TDs and catch 3 or 4 passes a game. An asset to every team he played for.

But you know what? Give me the 4.45 dude who can catch 90 passes a year, even if he is a mediocre blocker. I'll learn to live with it.


I respectfully disagree. For one thing, with Evans, Jackson and Brate already on the team it's unlikely any rookie is going to come in and catch 90, unless there are injuries.

The bigger issue is that Howard is likely every bit the receiver that Engram is. Engrams speed doesn't exactly blow Howard away. Their best 40 times were only .9 of a second apart while Howard is a much taller, heavier and stronger player. Not to mention that Howard averaged more YPC in college than Engram while getting sent out as a receiver far less often.

As you said, Howard is a true every down TE. As I said, I don't see a compelling reason why Howard can't produce in the passing game on par with Engram. The biggest reason thrown about is that he didn't blow up the stat sheet in college, and I believe that was due to everyone's friend, Lane Kiffin, using a stallion TE as a 6th lineman most of the time. Howard has enough tape to show than when you throw it to him, he makes good things happen, just ask the 2016 Clemson team. I have vastly more confidence in Howard being a dominant receiver than I do Engram ever being an average blocker. Howard is a day 1 starter in any offense, Engram is a gadget you have to figure out how to fit in. Howard will give us extreme schematic versatility, Engram will require you to move him around so he doesn't get abused at the line.

It's a moot point though, because Howard isn't going to be on the board for us. So it's more likely that nearly everything I just said about Howard over Engram can be transferred to Njoku over Engram, except the bits about Lane Kiffin's idiocy.
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Re: Who do you NOT want?

Postby Alpha » Fri Apr 14, 2017 2:36 am

Here is what I see as the problem in many of you arguing OJ vs. Njoku:

You are projecting Howard to become something he hasn't been in 4 YEARS, with arguably the most talented team in (college) football. Make all of the excuses you like...I can give you 5 reasons why Njoku had EVERY reason to not produce while at UM. Yet, he did. It's kind of silly (IMO) to project (think 3 years down the road) Howard becoming a much better player than he is right now. On the other hand...it doesn't take much imagination to project Njoku becoming a SIGNIFICANTLY better player than he is today.

This isn't a top 5 pick. It's 19. Again...it may just be a simple difference in draft philosophy...but (at 19), I'll take the guy who has the POTENTIAL to be something special as opposed to the guy that I think I've seen the best he has to offer.

We could have this same discussion when we decide to choose Shaheen in the 2nd round.
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Re: Who do you NOT want?

Postby Alpha » Fri Apr 14, 2017 2:45 am

DreadNaught wrote:
Alpha wrote:Needless to say...Cook is the one player I'd remove from my board. I don't want him...even as an UDFA.


Hyperbole or satire? Seems a tad extreme even if you don't like the concerns w/ Cook.


Teams remove players from their board ENTIRELY due to character concerns. Happens all the time.

I'm not advocating taking Mixon. Let's make that clear. Personally, I'd remove BOTH Mixon and Cook from consideration. That said...we have sent scouts and a player to evaluate OK players. What I would do...and what I think the Bucs will do might be 2 different things entirely.

They are both very talented players. They are BOTH, 1st round talents. And they both have big-time character issues. Hell...we already have a RB we can't rely on...we don't need any more.

When it's all said and done, in my view, Cook is a much bigger risk than Mixon. That's not hyperbole or satire. That's legit. And I never said Cook would be a Carruth. I only said it wouldn't surprise me if he became one.
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Re: Who do you NOT want?

Postby Brazen331 » Fri Apr 14, 2017 3:56 am

Alpha wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
Hyperbole or satire? Seems a tad extreme even if you don't like the concerns w/ Cook.


Teams remove players from their board ENTIRELY due to character concerns. Happens all the time.

I'm not advocating taking Mixon. Let's make that clear. Personally, I'd remove BOTH Mixon and Cook from consideration. That said...we have sent scouts and a player to evaluate OK players. What I would do...and what I think the Bucs will do might be 2 different things entirely.

They are both very talented players. They are BOTH, 1st round talents. And they both have big-time character issues. Hell...we already have a RB we can't rely on...we don't need any more.

When it's all said and done, in my view, Cook is a much bigger risk than Mixon. That's not hyperbole or satire. That's legit. And I never said Cook would be a Carruth. I only said it wouldn't surprise me if he became one.


It's like reading a PMI or DD Winston rant all over again every time I read something you write about Cook.
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Re: Who do you NOT want?

Postby GameTime » Fri Apr 14, 2017 9:20 am

Alpha wrote:Here is what I see as the problem in many of you arguing OJ vs. Njoku:

You are projecting Howard to become something he hasn't been in 4 YEARS, with arguably the most talented team in (college) football. Make all of the excuses you like...I can give you 5 reasons why Njoku had EVERY reason to not produce while at UM. Yet, he did. It's kind of silly (IMO) to project (think 3 years down the road) Howard becoming a much better player than he is right now. On the other hand...it doesn't take much imagination to project Njoku becoming a SIGNIFICANTLY better player than he is today.

This isn't a top 5 pick. It's 19. Again...it may just be a simple difference in draft philosophy...but (at 19), I'll take the guy who has the POTENTIAL to be something special as opposed to the guy that I think I've seen the best he has to offer.

We could have this same discussion when we decide to choose Shaheen in the 2nd round.

Has anyone watched legit film and figured out why Howard's "production" isnt as high as some would like? Does he run poor routes? Does he drop passes? Is he getting open and not getting looks? Is he blanketed with one-on-one coverage? Does he not understand zone defense? It appears that many folks are thinking that simply becuase he didnt score a lot of TDs in college he cant score TDs. Or because he didnt have a lot of catches his first 2 years he doesnt have potential.

What are the 5 reasons njoku didnt have to produce this past season? He had a vet QB who was thought preseason to be a 1st rounder. An offensive minded coach. And no superstars at WR. Howard had a running freshman QB, a defensive minded coach, and a superstar at WR. But it still gets away from the point - has anyone watched howard on the plays he didnt get targeted? If so, what are your conclusions?

I have no idea who will be better at the next level. I simply prefer howard because he complements brate better imo. And because i think he catches the ball cleaner.
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Re: Who do you NOT want?

Postby Bootz2004 » Fri Apr 14, 2017 9:39 am

GameTime wrote:
Alpha wrote:Here is what I see as the problem in many of you arguing OJ vs. Njoku:

You are projecting Howard to become something he hasn't been in 4 YEARS, with arguably the most talented team in (college) football. Make all of the excuses you like...I can give you 5 reasons why Njoku had EVERY reason to not produce while at UM. Yet, he did. It's kind of silly (IMO) to project (think 3 years down the road) Howard becoming a much better player than he is right now. On the other hand...it doesn't take much imagination to project Njoku becoming a SIGNIFICANTLY better player than he is today.

This isn't a top 5 pick. It's 19. Again...it may just be a simple difference in draft philosophy...but (at 19), I'll take the guy who has the POTENTIAL to be something special as opposed to the guy that I think I've seen the best he has to offer.

We could have this same discussion when we decide to choose Shaheen in the 2nd round.

Has anyone watched legit film and figured out why Howard's "production" isnt as high as some would like? Does he run poor routes? Does he drop passes? Is he getting open and not getting looks? Is he blanketed with one-on-one coverage? Does he not understand zone defense? It appears that many folks are thinking that simply becuase he didnt score a lot of TDs in college he cant score TDs. Or because he didnt have a lot of catches his first 2 years he doesnt have potential.

What are the 5 reasons njoku didnt have to produce this past season? He had a vet QB who was thought preseason to be a 1st rounder. An offensive minded coach. And no superstars at WR. Howard had a running freshman QB, a defensive minded coach, and a superstar at WR. But it still gets away from the point - has anyone watched howard on the plays he didnt get targeted? If so, what are your conclusions?

I have no idea who will be better at the next level. I simply prefer howard because he complements brate better imo. And because i think he catches the ball cleaner.


Uhh false. This past season, with the freshman QB, Howard put up the best numbers of his college career. Still pretty meh, but he produced more with the freshman QB than he did with the experienced ones the past 3 years. To answer your other questions, his route running needs work. He has trouble consistently getting separation, doesn't do well finding soft spots against zone coverage like a TE should do. He's 6-6 but doesn't always use that to his advantage. He does a lot well but this idea that he's a sure thing at the next level is ridiculous.
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Re: Who do you NOT want?

Postby GameTime » Fri Apr 14, 2017 9:59 am

Bootz2004 wrote:]Uhh false. This past season, with the freshman QB, Howard put up the best numbers of his college career. Still pretty meh, but he produced more with the freshman QB than he did with the experienced ones the past 3 years. To answer your other questions, his route running needs work. He has trouble consistently getting separation, doesn't do well finding soft spots against zone coverage like a TE should do. He's 6-6 but doesn't always use that to his advantage. He does a lot well but this idea that he's a sure thing at the next level is ridiculous.

I dont think anything i wrote is false. Shoot, most were just questions. He did produce more with the running freshman QB. Does that mean he was targeted more? Does that mean he improved on his routes, separation, finding zones? Did it have more to do with the types of plays kiffin was calling, or a friendship with the QB? Heck, was it just maturation?

I appreciate your response. Have you watched similar film of njoku? How does his route running, separation, and zone finds compare to howard? Simply due to the similar number of catches, i would assume there isnt much of a difference. The only real difference comes from TDs and yards per catch. Was there a noticeable difference in RZ playcalls? Hurts had 12 more rushing TDs than kaaya - so there are 12 TDs that howard "potentially" lost out on.

Like i said, I dont care, ill be happy either way. I dont think either guy is a sure thing. I just think there are a lot of factors that dont show up on the stat sheet.
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Re: Who do you NOT want?

Postby real bucs fan » Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:28 am

There's some projection with Howard, but all the traits are there. Every time they looked to him, he made plays.

Maybe he's a bit rich if we were picking in the top 10, but at 19 he'd be a hell of a pick.
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Re: Who do you NOT want?

Postby Bootz2004 » Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:47 am

I watch Miami more than any other college team sans USF. Njoku is a very smooth route runner. He has room to improve but what he does really well is selling. Makes his defender believe he's going deep, then cuts inside or vice versa. He needs to work on his hands though. Double catches too often and it sometimes leads to drops. I haven't seen him make many tough catches where he gets clobbered and still hangs on but that's mainly due to lack of opportunity in those situations.

There are 2 areas that Njoku impresses me more at. Red Zone & YAC. Njoku is deadly in the open field and breaking away from defenders. Howard has more pure speed, no question about that. But Njoku has a second gear he goes to after he makes a catch. And his ability to break tackles is impressive as well.

In the red zone he uses his length to get an advantage over defenders to score TDs. He finds those soft spots, shows his number and makes catches. Howard should improve on that in the NFL but Njoku already has an understanding of zone concepts.
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Re: Who do you NOT want?

Postby Doctor » Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:12 am

Alpha wrote:Here is what I see as the problem in many of you arguing OJ vs. Njoku:

You are projecting Howard to become something he hasn't been in 4 YEARS, with arguably the most talented team in (college) football. Make all of the excuses you like...I can give you 5 reasons why Njoku had EVERY reason to not produce while at UM. Yet, he did. It's kind of silly (IMO) to project (think 3 years down the road) Howard becoming a much better player than he is right now. On the other hand...it doesn't take much imagination to project Njoku becoming a SIGNIFICANTLY better player than he is today.

This is a stupid argument. Panthers asked Greg Olson to do something he didn't do for 4 YEARS in Chicago, and he's going a great job at it. Patriots asked Wes Welker to do something he hadn't done in 3 YEARS with the Dolphins, and he was excellent at it.

Saying that you want or expect a guy to do something he didn't do in another situation, on another team, in another system, is NOT making excuses. It's seeing what the guys skillsets are and how THIS team can use them in THIS system. It happens all the damn time. I don't even want to draft OJ Howard but holy hell you are putting out some stupid arguments.
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