Christian McCaffrey

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Re: Christian McCaffrey

Postby mdb1958 » Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:59 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
mdb1958 wrote:Then I'd have to wonder how many times we ran the ball last year with Brate being the only TE on the field and how many times we passed the ball with Stocker and Brate both on the field. I seem to recall Koetter talking about breaking or avoiding a tackle in order to get to the 2nd level. That petty much says they know what were doing but we need to execute it better to have success.


That's part of the reason we used a 6th lineman so often dating back to 2015. ASJ got hurt and then cut. Brate is useless as a blocker and Stocker is useless as a receiver. Having at least a threat hurt our offense.


We did that far less in 2016, but I agree about your point.

Could you see us running a package of Stocker, Brate, and Engram lining up with Evans?
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Re: Christian McCaffrey

Postby mdb1958 » Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:13 pm

Again, I like to know how often we passed the ball with Stocker being on the field because with him only catching 5 passes all year it doesnt amount to much of a receiving weapon.
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Re: Christian McCaffrey

Postby threadkiller » Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:15 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
threadkiller wrote:
I said Engram was a better run blocker than Njoku, not as good as Howard. 2016 FSU, Georgia, A&M led me to that opinion. Have watched 4 (I think?) Njoku games. Which should I be looking at to highlight Njoku's run blocking ability?


You're not getting it. At the NFL level no 230 pound TE is playing inline. He's basically the same size as Brandon Marshall. That relegates him to playing slot or H back.

As far as him being a better blocker than Njoku, which is irrelevant, I disagree. But at least we'll get to see him in that role at the NFL level. Engram won't be playing inline.


That is simply not true, and I question how you are using that term. He would not be the lone TE in traditional sets. I haven't made that claim. I don't think he projects as that. He would absolutely line up "inline" in 2 TE sets. Like Hernandez did at times for NE.

I disagree. I do not think you will see Njoku lined up as the lone TE, "inline", in traditional offensive sets. At least not early in his career.
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Re: Christian McCaffrey

Postby MJW » Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:20 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
threadkiller wrote:I would be pretty stoked to come out of our first 2 picks with Cook/Engram. I'm not sure either of those is very likely. I think that could make a good personnel group. Evans/Jackson, Brate, Cook at RB and Engram shifting between slot, 2nd TE, and h-back/FB type sets. Engram is the type of player that lets you be diverse, while running no huddle (locking defensive personnel groupings). I think McCaffrey has similar additional value that will have them drafted higher than looking strictly at their value to a traditional offensive position.


I don't necessarily agree here on Engram. You're not going to be all that diverse because he does absolutely nothing for your run game. He isn't going to be a lead blocker at FB. You're not putting a 230 pound TE inline period. I think a team will have to draft him with the understanding that he is a slot receiver. He's not a guy you're building your passing game around. McCaffrey will help out in multiple phases. Engram just 1.


I don't buy that the guy can't develop into at least a mediocre blocker, which is all you really need. Just because he wasn't asked to do it in college doesn't mean he has a genetic inability to do so. He weighs about the same as Cam Brate.

He's not remotely my first choice or anything but this idea that a freak athlete could only ever do one specific thing is kind of silly.

Oh, and he's 6'2 and ran a 4.42, soooo...pretty sure he doesn't have to be a slot target exclusively either way.
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Re: Christian McCaffrey

Postby mdb1958 » Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:52 pm

Over 6'3"
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Re: Christian McCaffrey

Postby Naismith » Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:57 pm

I've come around on Engram. He wouldn't be my favorite pick but just as a receiver, I'd prefer him to all but Mike Williams.
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Re: Christian McCaffrey

Postby threadkiller » Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:44 pm

I would definitely put Davis in front of him in my list. I don't think there is any chance Williams or Davis makes it down to us, but would have both on the Howard shelf. Above Cook (who's tape is clearly top shelf)/Bolles/Ram/Taco/Barnett/Njoku group I'm expecting to have more choices from.
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Re: Christian McCaffrey

Postby mdb1958 » Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:58 pm

I'm wanting to see how Davis looks where he doesnt have to be the number one option, or in other words - I want to see him with good talent around him.
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Re: Christian McCaffrey

Postby MJW » Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:42 am

mdb1958 wrote:Over 6'3"


Didn't realize he was that tall.

BTW, I find it odd that "think of all the great ways Koetter can use him!" is being used for justifying McCaffrey, but when we're talking about the 6'3 245 lbs TE/H-Back/Fullback/slot receiver with 4.42 speed, it's, "we shouldn't draft him because he can only do one thing!" Does Koetter's genius not extend out of the backfield? :o
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Re: Christian McCaffrey

Postby mdb1958 » Fri Apr 07, 2017 6:05 am

What ever 6033 means! six foot three ---------- and three tenths???


Even if he was asked to block a defensive end, wouldnt it be just about timing and the blockers ability to slow down how fast the defensive end is able to run over him? You dont have to stone wall a defensive end and win the battle, you just need to slow him down for a second.
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Re: Christian McCaffrey

Postby real bucs fan » Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:52 am

MJW wrote:
mdb1958 wrote:Over 6'3"


Didn't realize he was that tall.

BTW, I find it odd that "think of all the great ways Koetter can use him!" is being used for justifying McCaffrey, but when we're talking about the 6'3 245 lbs TE/H-Back/Fullback/slot receiver with 4.42 speed, it's, "we shouldn't draft him because he can only do one thing!" Does Koetter's genius not extend out of the backfield? :o


Nice to see you on board the Engram train, it was a little odd when it was only mdb and I (no offence mdb)
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Re: Christian McCaffrey

Postby Naismith » Fri Apr 07, 2017 11:17 am

MJW wrote:BTW, I find it odd that "think of all the great ways Koetter can use him!" is being used for justifying McCaffrey


This is the second time you've said something like this but I haven't seen any real push for McCaffrey here from anyone.
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Re: Christian McCaffrey

Postby MJW » Fri Apr 07, 2017 11:22 pm

Naismith wrote:
MJW wrote:BTW, I find it odd that "think of all the great ways Koetter can use him!" is being used for justifying McCaffrey


This is the second time you've said something like this but I haven't seen any real push for McCaffrey here from anyone.


Alpha and I had a long discussion about it in another thread, and you can see examples of it (maybe not a push, but a defense?) in this one.

And I get it. I do. McCaffrey is a very exciting player. But so is Engram. And it'd just be so much easier to find an exciting back in the 5th round than it would a guy with anything close to Engram's skill set.
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Re: Christian McCaffrey

Postby MJW » Fri Apr 07, 2017 11:23 pm

real bucs fan wrote:
MJW wrote:
Didn't realize he was that tall.

BTW, I find it odd that "think of all the great ways Koetter can use him!" is being used for justifying McCaffrey, but when we're talking about the 6'3 245 lbs TE/H-Back/Fullback/slot receiver with 4.42 speed, it's, "we shouldn't draft him because he can only do one thing!" Does Koetter's genius not extend out of the backfield? :o


Nice to see you on board the Engram train, it was a little odd when it was only mdb and I (no offence mdb)


I wouldn't go so far as "on the bandwagon," but I definitely acknowledge his skill and upside, and what he could mean to this offense. He's officially on my, "I'd be okay with it" list.

I'm still holding out hope that this loaded defensive draft gives us a chance at David Njoku, who I think is a 3-down tight end and a transcendent talent.
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Re: Christian McCaffrey

Postby Corsair » Fri Apr 07, 2017 11:38 pm

MJW wrote:
real bucs fan wrote:
Nice to see you on board the Engram train, it was a little odd when it was only mdb and I (no offence mdb)


I wouldn't go so far as "on the bandwagon," but I definitely acknowledge his skill and upside, and what he could mean to this offense. He's officially on my, "I'd be okay with it" list.

I'm still holding out hope that this loaded defensive draft gives us a chance at David Njoku, who I think is a 3-down tight end and a transcendent talent.



I really like Njoku, like really like him. I've heard him compared to "Cam Newton at TE". Strange comparison, but if he is anywhere near as disruptive as Cam is, sign me up. Having a dominant WR like Evans, a perfectly complementing speed WR with DJ, then add in Njoku and Brate... pick up Kamara and this offense is LETHAL.
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Re: Christian McCaffrey

Postby MJW » Fri Apr 07, 2017 11:43 pm

Corsair wrote:
MJW wrote:
I wouldn't go so far as "on the bandwagon," but I definitely acknowledge his skill and upside, and what he could mean to this offense. He's officially on my, "I'd be okay with it" list.

I'm still holding out hope that this loaded defensive draft gives us a chance at David Njoku, who I think is a 3-down tight end and a transcendent talent.



I really like Njoku, like really like him. I've heard him compared to "Cam Newton at TE". Strange comparison, but if he is anywhere near as disruptive as Cam is, sign me up. Having a dominant WR like Evans, a perfectly complementing speed WR with DJ, then add in Njoku and Brate... pick up Kamara and this offense is LETHAL.


He's special. That's all I can think watching him. The guy is a special talent. It's not just that he's a freak. It's that he's a freak who looks like he's not even going full speed when he does freakish things.

Sadly, I think NFL GMs have come to the same conclusion by now, and he's right at the top of my list of guys who are going to go much higher than most mocks think.
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Re: Christian McCaffrey

Postby threadkiller » Sat Apr 08, 2017 12:35 am

I wish there were more games of his available, it's abnormal for a prospect of his caliber. He is fun to watch with the ball in his hands. Pretty nifty feet in traffic. Outstanding for a player his size. I love that he is consistently physical to smaller players, and sheds an impressive number of solid shot tackle attempts. He looks like the most dynamic TE receiving, maybe the most dynamic receiving prospect, in the draft. Really hoping more of his cut ups become available soon. He gets thrown around by linemen, but he has some fight to his blocking.
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Re: Christian McCaffrey

Postby Brazen331 » Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:43 am

To steer it back to McCaffrey for a second, I think he can also be a transcendent talent like Njoku but he should run behind a zone-blocking system. I think he is the most instinctive, fundamentally sound runner/catcher in the entire draft.

What he sucks at is blocking and he will always suck at it. He is either going to try to cut block you or he is going to do the duck and lunge. You have to be aware of all of this be as a team and be able to capitalize and his strengths and accommodate his weaknesses.

So I do see Njoku as being safer than McCaffrey but Njoku could also be selected before Howard. It would not shock me if he was.
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Re: Christian McCaffrey

Postby terrytate » Sun Apr 09, 2017 9:21 pm

Am I the only one not excited by either McCaffrey or Engram? McCaffrey is good but not good enough to justify spending #19 on. He's got good vision, speed and hands but doesn't seem have the explosiveness or ability to go through tackles that Cook does. I think he is going to struggle against the speed of NFL defenses. Engram might well be a good player. He's fast but he's small for the position. Howard, Njoku and Hodges are nearly as fast but much taller/heavier. I'd much prefer one of the elite prospects who have the tools to excel as either an inline TE or a modern move TE than a guy who could struggle in the blocking game.
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Re: Christian McCaffrey

Postby Bootz2004 » Sun Apr 09, 2017 10:54 pm

terrytate wrote:Am I the only one not excited by either McCaffrey or Engram? McCaffrey is good but not good enough to justify spending #19 on. He's got good vision, speed and hands but doesn't seem have the explosiveness or ability to go through tackles that Cook does. I think he is going to struggle against the speed of NFL defenses. Engram might well be a good player. He's fast but he's small for the position. Howard, Njoku and Hodges are nearly as fast but much taller/heavier. I'd much prefer one of the elite prospects who have the tools to excel as either an inline TE or a modern move TE than a guy who could struggle in the blocking game.


I'm more excited about McCaffrey than Engram. McCaffrey can make plays and helps out in multiple phases. Run game, pass game, return game. Engram helps out in just 1. And as stated he doesn't have enough of an advantage over other guys at the position to warrent more excitement or a higher selection. I honestly don't see the value in him
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Re: Christian McCaffrey

Postby mdb1958 » Mon Apr 10, 2017 12:24 am

A clip from an article I read.

“He runs like a receiver,” Georgia head coach Kirby Smart said. “The guy runs by DBs, and he’s a tight end. When you’ve got a tight end that runs faster than your DBs, you’ve got a problem.”


So I say when he is faster than most of the WR's at this years combine you have to atleast think about ways you could use him.

Just as an example, Brate ran a 4.77 at his pro day.
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Re: Christian McCaffrey

Postby mdb1958 » Mon Apr 10, 2017 12:52 am

I'm not sure anyone has thought of getting McCaffrey after a trade down, but I have thought of getting Engram after one. You still could pick a Stocker/Myers replacement later in the draft. Thing is with Stocker who ran a 4.68, he is not much of a runner or a route runner or a pass catcher. Not to crazy about him being a lead blocker either. Plus we have already seen DE's humiliate him.
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Re: Christian McCaffrey

Postby Naismith » Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:00 pm

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Re: Christian McCaffrey

Postby Corsair » Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:14 pm

Tis the season for lying.
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Re: Christian McCaffrey

Postby MJW » Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:19 pm

Naismith wrote:Image


This just seems really high to me for a player who's essentially a gadget. The only reason I think it could happen is Reggie Bush. He went #2 overall (and could have easily gone #1) in a really good draft. After watching McCaffrey more these last few weeks, I think that's a really good comp. Reggie struggled a bit with consistency and health, but you're still talking about a back who caught 88 passes in a season and ended up with 9,000 yards from scrimmage. And I think McCaffrey is better between the tackles than Bush was.

I stand by everything I've said - I don't really want him, and I don't really see him having enough impact as a gadget player to justify the pick. I'm just saying it's possible there are NFL GMs who strongly disagree with that and see him as a secret weapon or something.
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Re: Christian McCaffrey

Postby Corsair » Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:13 am

The Reggie comparison is a good one, but remember he wasn't drafted to be a "gadget" player. He was supposed to be the next Ladanian Tomlinson, a game changer, a savior. He lit Los Angeles on fire in the middle of that Pete Carroll dynasty and everyone expected him to do the same in the pros. He ended up as a solid contributor on his teams, but I'm sure many people thought of him as a bust. Michael Clayton is a bust. Reggie Bush had a respectable career in the NFL.

But there is huge value in McCaffrey if your expectations aren't on a Reggie Bush level.

But if your expectations are a "gadget" player that your coaching can unlock, you don't take him in the first round... much less the top 10.

Reggie certainly wouldn't have gone that high in retrospect.
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Re: Christian McCaffrey

Postby MJW » Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:34 am

Corsair wrote:The Reggie comparison is a good one, but remember he wasn't drafted to be a "gadget" player. He was supposed to be the next Ladanian Tomlinson, a game changer, a savior. He lit Los Angeles on fire in the middle of that Pete Carroll dynasty and everyone expected him to do the same in the pros. He ended up as a solid contributor on his teams, but I'm sure many people thought of him as a bust. Michael Clayton is a bust. Reggie Bush had a respectable career in the NFL.

But there is huge value in McCaffrey if your expectations aren't on a Reggie Bush level.

But if your expectations are a "gadget" player that your coaching can unlock, you don't take him in the first round... much less the top 10.

Reggie certainly wouldn't have gone that high in retrospect.


I agree 100% with everything you're saying. It's just possible that a GM won't see it that way, especially a GM with a Sean-Payton like coach who thinks he can use McCaffrey as an unstoppable X-factor that'll change the whole dynamic of his attack.

Ultimately, *I* sure as ***** don't draft a gadget player in the 1st round. I didn't particularly want Percy Harvin when he as 2009's incredibly overhyped Florida school prospect that year for the same reason - he wasn't a #1 NFL receiver and he never would be. I don't think you use your first round pick on a toy or a decoy or a guy you're going to play in five spots. You draft a skill position player in the 1st round, he either needs to be a back who can handle 25 touches, a receiver with the physique and skill-set to develop into a #1, or a tight end who changes the complexion of your passing attack.

That's pretty much it for me. I don't want a slot receiver. I don't want a change of pace back. I don't want a blocking tight end who catches a little. I can get any of those things in later rounds. If I really feel like I NEED a gadget player to help my offense, my offense has other problems and I should probably draft a good OL prospect instead.
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Re: Christian McCaffrey

Postby Brazen331 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:12 am

Corsair wrote:Tis the season for lying.


I'm having little trouble believing this. Whether you think he is a gadget or the guy, he certainly is an amazing marketer. I can certainly imagine scouts salivating over that footwork tweet he made like a Pavlovian dog. That was pure poetry, like Yeats or Baudelaire poetry.
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Re: Christian McCaffrey

Postby Corsair » Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:41 am

MJW wrote:That's pretty much it for me. I don't want a slot receiver. I don't want a change of pace back. I don't want a blocking tight end who catches a little. I can get any of those things in later rounds. If I really feel like I NEED a gadget player to help my offense, my offense has other problems and I should probably draft a good OL prospect instead.


What a year to have no OL prospects to be excited about. Lets be honest, it's one of the worst OL drafts in a while. I don't want to be the team who spends a high pick on an OL in this draft.

But between Cook, Williams, Davis, and Njoku, there is a legit starter who will be available.

If not, take Mixon.
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Re: Christian McCaffrey

Postby Caradoc » Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:28 pm

beardmcdoug wrote:would be great to get him in the 2nd



Would be great to get Cook in the 6th
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