Who's your guy?

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Re: Who's your guy?

Postby Naismith » Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:08 am

real bucs fan wrote:
Naismith wrote:Yeah, I don't see the value in drafting a TE in the first round that isn't very good in both the run and pass game.


So that would take you out of the Njoku camp, but Engram is a heck of a receiver ;)


I haven't seen anything that suggests that Njoku can't be a very good blocker but if that's not true, then I'd be out on him as well as a first round pick. If you're using a premium pick on a tight end, he needs to be the complete package, otherwise the class is too deep and finding a pass catching tight end is too easy.
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Re: Who's your guy?

Postby Bootz2004 » Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:08 am

real bucs fan wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:I don't disagree. Engram will be a great weapon. But he's not a TE. He's never going to play with his hand in the dirt. If you had said you'd draft him and tell him to lose about 10 pounds to play WR, I would understand your position more. But you said you'd use him as a move TE. Move TEs don't have that much value. You certainly wouldn't use a 1st round pick there. Njoku can play inline. He has size, strength and room to grow physically. You can play him anywhere and he provides something as a blocker.


I don't believe he needs to lose 10 pounds to play WR. He's a well put together 235lbs and his athleticism, for any sized WR, is top notched.

And to be clear, I think he can be both a move TE and a jumbo WR as is, no weight gain or loss needed for him to play either, and he's already got the polished skillset to do both. At 235lbs he's about the same size as the bigger WRs and move TEs we see throughout the NFL. I think he can be both at an elite level, and that only adds to his versatility, and the versatility our offence would have with him on the field. I don't think Engram is a perfect prospect by any means, but after Fournette, Cook, Davis, Williams, and Howard, I think he's in that next tier of weapons, and of that next tier I believe him to be a better gamble than John Ross, McCaffery, Kamara, Mixon and Njoku.


What WRs are 6-2 235? That's a lot of weight for a WR to play. I don't think he'd have much success outside against CBs without the added quickness a weight loss would bring. It would be a nice wrinkle to throw in but not one you build around or use a lot. That diminishes his value. Elite is a strong word to use as well. Nothing about being a converted WR or move TE says elite.
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Re: Who's your guy?

Postby Bootz2004 » Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:11 am

real bucs fan wrote:
Naismith wrote:Yeah, I don't see the value in drafting a TE in the first round that isn't very good in both the run and pass game.


So that would take you out of the Njoku camp, but Engram is a heck of a receiver ;)


Njoku already blocks. He's not helpless like you're trying to convince people he is. Does he need work? Yes. But as many have stated, he has a lot of upside there. He can add some size to his frame. It's not maxed out.
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Re: Who's your guy?

Postby real bucs fan » Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:24 am

Bootz2004 wrote:
real bucs fan wrote:
I don't believe he needs to lose 10 pounds to play WR. He's a well put together 235lbs and his athleticism, for any sized WR, is top notched.

And to be clear, I think he can be both a move TE and a jumbo WR as is, no weight gain or loss needed for him to play either, and he's already got the polished skillset to do both. At 235lbs he's about the same size as the bigger WRs and move TEs we see throughout the NFL. I think he can be both at an elite level, and that only adds to his versatility, and the versatility our offence would have with him on the field. I don't think Engram is a perfect prospect by any means, but after Fournette, Cook, Davis, Williams, and Howard, I think he's in that next tier of weapons, and of that next tier I believe him to be a better gamble than John Ross, McCaffery, Kamara, Mixon and Njoku.


What WRs are 6-2 235? That's a lot of weight for a WR to play. I don't think he'd have much success outside against CBs without the added quickness a weight loss would bring. It would be a nice wrinkle to throw in but not one you build around or use a lot. That diminishes his value. Elite is a strong word to use as well. Nothing about being a converted WR or move TE says elite.


Well firstly Engram measured in over 6'3". In regards to your question, there are quite a few WRs who weigh in the 230s actually, our own Mike Evans, and both Benjamin and Funchess in Carolina off the top of my head. And of course Brandon Marshall. But the thing is, Engram is a better athlete than all those guys. If you ultimately decide you want him as a WR and would like him to slim down, you could do that though.
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Re: Who's your guy?

Postby real bucs fan » Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:29 am

Bootz2004 wrote:
real bucs fan wrote:
So that would take you out of the Njoku camp, but Engram is a heck of a receiver ;)


Njoku already blocks. He's not helpless like you're trying to convince people he is. Does he need work? Yes. But as many have stated, he has a lot of upside there. He can add some size to his frame. It's not maxed out.


Njoku does have age on his side, but that's a double edged sword. He's all projection. Engram at the moment is a much more refined receiver, has much better hands, and is probably a better blocker despite the 10 pounds. That's why I prefer Engram. I think he steps in day 1 and is a better player. Njoku is a bit raw for my liking in the first round, and his hands are iffy at best- which is problematic for a guy who's bread and butter will be as a receiver. He's Eric Ebron- which is solid, but I'd take Jordan Reed over Ebron all day.
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Re: Who's your guy?

Postby Bootz2004 » Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:35 am

real bucs fan wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
Njoku already blocks. He's not helpless like you're trying to convince people he is. Does he need work? Yes. But as many have stated, he has a lot of upside there. He can add some size to his frame. It's not maxed out.


Njoku does have age on his side, but that's a double edged sword. He's all projection. Engram at the moment is a much more refined receiver, has much better hands, and is probably a better blocker despite the 10 pounds. That's why I prefer Engram. I think he steps in day 1 and is a better player. Njoku is a bit raw for my liking in the first round, and his hands are iffy at best- which is problematic for a guy who's bread and butter will be as a receiver. He's Eric Ebron- which is solid, but I'd take Jordan Reed over Ebron all day.


Day 1 where? As an H back? You don't draft an H back high. And what's this Jordan Reed comparison? Reed plays inline. Ebron plays inline. Njoku does too. Engram does not. And that hurts his value. Why do you think these sites you use see him as a 2nd round prospect?
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Re: Who's your guy?

Postby Naismith » Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:44 am

Where are you getting your criticism of Njoku as a blocker? I can't find anything that doesn't list his run-blocking as a plus.
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Re: Who's your guy?

Postby real bucs fan » Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:48 am

Naismith wrote:Where are you getting your criticism of Njoku as a blocker? I can't find anything that doesn't list his run-blocking as a plus.


Where do you see his blocking rated as plus? I've seen nothing but the opposite, and the tape I've watched agrees.
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Re: Who's your guy?

Postby Bootz2004 » Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:55 am

real bucs fan wrote:
Naismith wrote:Where are you getting your criticism of Njoku as a blocker? I can't find anything that doesn't list his run-blocking as a plus.


Where do you see his blocking rated as plus? I've seen nothing but the opposite, and the tape I've watched agrees.


Where's this tape? You make him sound like a lost cause.
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Re: Who's your guy?

Postby real bucs fan » Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:56 am

Bootz2004 wrote:
real bucs fan wrote:
Njoku does have age on his side, but that's a double edged sword. He's all projection. Engram at the moment is a much more refined receiver, has much better hands, and is probably a better blocker despite the 10 pounds. That's why I prefer Engram. I think he steps in day 1 and is a better player. Njoku is a bit raw for my liking in the first round, and his hands are iffy at best- which is problematic for a guy who's bread and butter will be as a receiver. He's Eric Ebron- which is solid, but I'd take Jordan Reed over Ebron all day.


Day 1 where? As an H back? You don't draft an H back high. And what's this Jordan Reed comparison? Reed plays inline. Ebron plays inline. Njoku does too. Engram does not. And that hurts his value. Why do you think these sites you use see him as a 2nd round prospect?


Engram lined up all over for Ole Miss, on the line, off the line, out wide, and even in the backfield. While he's not on the line of scrimmage in this sequence, watch from 1:15 of this video to get an idea of him as a blocker. 5 straight runs with him leading the way.

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Re: Who's your guy?

Postby Naismith » Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:59 am

Matt Miller:

Njoku isn’t the biggest need pick for Tampa Bay, but this is the type of selection that can make a good offense a great one. With his run-after-catch skills, box-out size and what he brings to the table as a run- blocker, Njoku has a great chance to rank as a top-15 player from now until draft day.

https://mattwaldmanrsp.com/2016/12/30/r ... joku-miami



(Long video, but Waldman highlights his blocking during it)

I can find more later but I need to go to a lunch meeting right now!
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Re: Who's your guy?

Postby Bootz2004 » Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:13 am

real bucs fan wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
Day 1 where? As an H back? You don't draft an H back high. And what's this Jordan Reed comparison? Reed plays inline. Ebron plays inline. Njoku does too. Engram does not. And that hurts his value. Why do you think these sites you use see him as a 2nd round prospect?


Engram lined up all over for Ole Miss, on the line, off the line, out wide, and even in the backfield. While he's not on the line of scrimmage in this sequence, watch from 1:15 of this video to get an idea of him as a blocker. 5 straight runs with him leading the way.



He won't be doing that at the NFL level. At all.
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Re: Who's your guy?

Postby real bucs fan » Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:15 am

"Needs to add to his play strength to handle in-line blocking as a pro. Don't skip leg days, bro. Struggled badly to stay in front of Pitt powerhouse Ejuan Price. Hands too high and wide at point of attack."- NFL.com

"Not always interested in blocking and falls asleep at the wheel. Delivers pop as a blocker, but lacks the grip strength to sustain the point of attack. Catch blocker in pass pro. Undeveloped hand placement and mirror skills to hold up in space."-CBS
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Re: Who's your guy?

Postby real bucs fan » Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:18 am

Bootz2004 wrote:
real bucs fan wrote:
Engram lined up all over for Ole Miss, on the line, off the line, out wide, and even in the backfield. While he's not on the line of scrimmage in this sequence, watch from 1:15 of this video to get an idea of him as a blocker. 5 straight runs with him leading the way.



He won't be doing that at the NFL level. At all.


Why not? A creative OC will have him moving around. Obviously you are drafting him for his speed and receiving ability, I'm simply illustrating he's not a guy who never blocked in college like some of you are saying.
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Re: Who's your guy?

Postby dmac1976 » Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:26 pm

Dalvin Cook or Christian McCaffrey would be my choice at the 19th overall pick if either one is available. There are good Tight End, Safety and Defensive End prospects to be had in the 2nd, 3rd & 4th rounds. I believe Dalvin Cook will be special in Koetter's offense.
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Re: Who's your guy?

Postby Bootz2004 » Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:54 pm

real bucs fan wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
He won't be doing that at the NFL level. At all.


Why not? A creative OC will have him moving around. Obviously you are drafting him for his speed and receiving ability, I'm simply illustrating he's not a guy who never blocked in college like some of you are saying.


You're better off drafting an actual WR then.
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Re: Who's your guy?

Postby real bucs fan » Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:57 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
real bucs fan wrote:
Why not? A creative OC will have him moving around. Obviously you are drafting him for his speed and receiving ability, I'm simply illustrating he's not a guy who never blocked in college like some of you are saying.


You're better off drafting an actual WR then.

I'm making this argument with the assumption the top WRs are gone.
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Re: Who's your guy?

Postby Bootz2004 » Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:18 pm

real bucs fan wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
You're better off drafting an actual WR then.

I'm making this argument with the assumption the top WRs are gone.


From a value standpoint you're better off waiting and grabbing a WR later like Dupre or JuJu or Ford or Jones. I'd take one of them in the 3rd or 4th before I took an H-back in the 1st
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Re: Who's your guy?

Postby real bucs fan » Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:42 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
real bucs fan wrote:I'm making this argument with the assumption the top WRs are gone.


From a value standpoint you're better off waiting and grabbing a WR later like Dupre or JuJu or Ford or Jones. I'd take one of them in the 3rd or 4th before I took an H-back in the 1st

I'll be shocked if JuJu and Jones don't go in the 2nd round, they are the 4th and 5th WRs in this draft IMO, so I don't think you can bank on them in the third or fourth- they might not even make it to our 2nd pick. Someone like Ford could slip to the 4th and I think he'd be great value there though.

Ultimately, and regardless of what you think of Engram, I want to grab a WR and a TE in this draft. In fact I'd say I'm hoping the first 4 picks are some combination of WR, OL, RB, and TE. I think with how the depths of those positions align with this draft, we'd be able to grab 4 long term contributors at those positions with our first 4 picks.
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Re: Who's your guy?

Postby Alpha » Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:26 am

real bucs fan wrote:
Teitan wrote:Both of you **** off with your draft **** measuring competition.


I bring nothing but level headed, logical, and well researched discussion on the draft. This fool is the one who goes on and on about he's some football genius while insulting others, when he's clearly a fool. The fact so many of you tolerate this clown boggles my mind.


Who's the fool?

The fool or the schmuck that argues with him?

Hmmm...
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Re: Who's your guy?

Postby VauntedTampa2 » Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:09 am

Two rules of thumb for ANY message board:
1. Don't argue with an idiot; people watching may not be able to tell the difference.
2. Mud wrestling with pigs - Don't do it, because you never win, and eventually you realize the pig enjoys it.
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Re: Who's your guy?

Postby real bucs fan » Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:18 am

Just to clarify my position on Njoku and Engram, I would be content with either at 19 if the top guys including Howard are gone. I have them ranked about the same. Not in love with either, just think Njoku is a bit overrated, and Engram underrated.

My position is just that if you are going to go after an athletic pass catching TE who can't block, I'd prefer Engram who is even more athletic and a much more refined receiver. Njoku has more "upside" as a blocker due to his youth and larger frame for sure, but at this point they are about the same. Engram is actually probably the better blocker at this point despite being 10 pounds lighter.

And for those asking where my source is on Njoku as a blocker, I think this is a good breakdown of the 2 games of Njokus I watched:

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Re: Who's your guy?

Postby Bootz2004 » Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:52 am

real bucs fan wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
Day 1 where? As an H back? You don't draft an H back high. And what's this Jordan Reed comparison? Reed plays inline. Ebron plays inline. Njoku does too. Engram does not. And that hurts his value. Why do you think these sites you use see him as a 2nd round prospect?


Engram lined up all over for Ole Miss, on the line, off the line, out wide, and even in the backfield. While he's not on the line of scrimmage in this sequence, watch from 1:15 of this video to get an idea of him as a blocker. 5 straight runs with him leading the way.



Okay, finally got time to watch this video. Many observations. 1st of all this video showed me you have no idea what an inline TE is. Not 1 time was Engram inline on this video. Not 1. Didn't even play wing. 2nd, his blocking is more so getting in the way. He doesn't engage any defender. He got no turn. The best block in the entire video was an attempted cut block(I guess) that got the defender on his knees. But this clearly is not an area you would use him in at the pro level. He'd get eaten alive. Especially early in his career. At his size I don't know that he'll ever develop into even a mediocre blocker. I would however just make him a WR because I think his frame could be useful on the edge blocking DBs. But he's not going to even slow up Cam Jordan or Vic Beasley.
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Re: Who's your guy?

Postby mdb1958 » Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:32 pm

Awuzie or Witherspoon?


K King or D King?
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Re: Who's your guy?

Postby real bucs fan » Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:14 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
real bucs fan wrote:
Engram lined up all over for Ole Miss, on the line, off the line, out wide, and even in the backfield. While he's not on the line of scrimmage in this sequence, watch from 1:15 of this video to get an idea of him as a blocker. 5 straight runs with him leading the way.



Okay, finally got time to watch this video. Many observations. 1st of all this video showed me you have no idea what an inline TE is. Not 1 time was Engram inline on this video. Not 1. Didn't even play wing. 2nd, his blocking is more so getting in the way. He doesn't engage any defender. He got no turn. The best block in the entire video was an attempted cut block(I guess) that got the defender on his knees. But this clearly is not an area you would use him in at the pro level. He'd get eaten alive. Especially early in his career. At his size I don't know that he'll ever develop into even a mediocre blocker. I would however just make him a WR because I think his frame could be useful on the edge blocking DBs. But he's not going to even slow up Cam Jordan or Vic Beasley.

Never said he played inline in that video. And as for your last sentence, neither will Njoku, Njoku isn't any better.
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Re: Who's your guy?

Postby Bootz2004 » Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:22 pm

real bucs fan wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
Okay, finally got time to watch this video. Many observations. 1st of all this video showed me you have no idea what an inline TE is. Not 1 time was Engram inline on this video. Not 1. Didn't even play wing. 2nd, his blocking is more so getting in the way. He doesn't engage any defender. He got no turn. The best block in the entire video was an attempted cut block(I guess) that got the defender on his knees. But this clearly is not an area you would use him in at the pro level. He'd get eaten alive. Especially early in his career. At his size I don't know that he'll ever develop into even a mediocre blocker. I would however just make him a WR because I think his frame could be useful on the edge blocking DBs. But he's not going to even slow up Cam Jordan or Vic Beasley.

Never said he played inline in that video. And as for your last sentence, neither will Njoku, Njoku isn't any better.


I beg to differ. So do you. You're just being stubborn. You know damn well Njoku is not as horrible a blocker as you're making him out to be. Unlike Engram he actually has the ability to play inline and will do so at the NFL level. And will likely improve too.
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Re: Who's your guy?

Postby real bucs fan » Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:25 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
real bucs fan wrote:Never said he played inline in that video. And as for your last sentence, neither will Njoku, Njoku isn't any better.


I beg to differ. So do you. You're just being stubborn. You know damn well Njoku is not as horrible a blocker as you're making him out to be. Unlike Engram he actually has the ability to play inline and will do so at the NFL level. And will likely improve too.

Njoku has more experience inline, I'll give you that, but he was pretty terrible at it.

Watch the video above breaking down his Pitt and WVU tape.
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Re: Who's your guy?

Postby Bootz2004 » Sat Mar 18, 2017 2:29 pm

real bucs fan wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
I beg to differ. So do you. You're just being stubborn. You know damn well Njoku is not as horrible a blocker as you're making him out to be. Unlike Engram he actually has the ability to play inline and will do so at the NFL level. And will likely improve too.

Njoku has more experience inline, I'll give you that, but he was pretty terrible at it.

Watch the video above breaking down his Pitt and WVU tape.


Terrible? Not even. Needs work? Absolutely. As does EVERY TE prospect who comes into the league. But again it will not be the basis of his game.
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Re: Who's your guy?

Postby Swashy » Sat Mar 18, 2017 3:55 pm

Jabrill Peppers if we can get him.
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Re: Who's your guy?

Postby Bootz2004 » Sat Mar 18, 2017 3:57 pm

Swashy wrote:Jabrill Peppers if we can get him.


He'll be there at 19
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