Bucs Big Board Thread

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Re: Bucs Big Board Thread

Postby mdb1958 » Mon Feb 13, 2017 7:28 pm

Naismith wrote:Top 16:

1. Myles Garrett
2. Jonathan Allen
3. Solomon Thomas
4. Taco Charlton
5. Garett Bolles
6. Ryan Ramczyk
7. Charles Harris
8. Derek Barnett
9. Mike Williams
10. Cam Robinson
11. Tak McKinley
12. Forrest Lamp
13. Dan Feeney
14. Leonard Fournette
15. OJ Howard
16. Ryan Anderson



So no safeties or cornerbacks in the top sixteen.
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Re: Bucs Big Board Thread

Postby Naismith » Mon Feb 13, 2017 7:49 pm

Definitely wouldn't waste a pick on a cornerback again. I could be convinced with a safety but that would be a worst case scenario.
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Re: Bucs Big Board Thread

Postby mdb1958 » Mon Feb 13, 2017 8:14 pm

Naismith wrote:Definitely wouldn't waste a pick on a cornerback again. I could be convinced with a safety but that would be a worst case scenario.


Why do you think it would be a waste, thats a more than likely position to be available at 19. Of course it depends on whether the prospect is highly valued by us.
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Re: Bucs Big Board Thread

Postby Konatown » Mon Feb 13, 2017 8:15 pm

Naismith wrote:Definitely wouldn't waste a pick on a cornerback again. I could be convinced with a safety but that would be a worst case scenario.

Just out of curiosity why not?

Grimes isn't getting any younger, and Verner's status appears to be up in the air. If a CB is BPA I'd be fine with the pick.
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Re: Bucs Big Board Thread

Postby Nano » Mon Feb 13, 2017 8:17 pm

If either Hooker or Adams made it to our pick, that would be a best case scenario.
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Re: Bucs Big Board Thread

Postby real bucs fan » Mon Feb 13, 2017 8:19 pm

Nano wrote:If either Hooker or Adams made it to our pick, that would be a best case scenario.


Ya, this is an example of when you pigeon hole yourself.
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Re: Bucs Big Board Thread

Postby mdb1958 » Mon Feb 13, 2017 8:26 pm

When the hands start taking stuff outta the cupboard, your going to have to consider what's left.
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Re: Bucs Big Board Thread

Postby Bootz2004 » Mon Feb 13, 2017 8:40 pm

Corner wouldn't be a waste.
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Re: Bucs Big Board Thread

Postby Naismith » Mon Feb 13, 2017 8:57 pm

Konatown wrote:
Naismith wrote:Definitely wouldn't waste a pick on a cornerback again. I could be convinced with a safety but that would be a worst case scenario.

Just out of curiosity why not?

Grimes isn't getting any younger, and Verner's status appears to be up in the air. If a CB is BPA I'd be fine with the pick.


Because corners are as effective or ineffective as the pass rush in front of them. The Bucs keep addressing their CBs year after year, including using the 11th pick on statistically one of the worst in the league last year, because they're trying to address the symptom rather than the problem. One good pass rusher improves every LB, CB and safety on the roster. A lack of rush makes every DB look worse than they are. It's not possible for a CB to be BPA at pick 19 because they just aren't important enough to a defense.
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Re: Bucs Big Board Thread

Postby Bootz2004 » Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:10 pm

Naismith wrote:
Konatown wrote:Just out of curiosity why not?

Grimes isn't getting any younger, and Verner's status appears to be up in the air. If a CB is BPA I'd be fine with the pick.


Because corners are as effective or ineffective as the pass rush in front of them. The Bucs keep addressing their CBs year after year, including using the 11th pick on statistically one of the worst in the league last year, because they're trying to address the symptom rather than the problem. One good pass rusher improves every LB, CB and safety on the roster. A lack of rush makes every DB look worse than they are. It's not possible for a CB to be BPA at pick 19 because they just aren't important enough to a defense.


This is complete fiction. The position has been largely ignored in terms of getting stop gap types. I don't know what you mean by "The Bucs keep addressing their CBs year after year". This past offseason was the 1st time since Revis we had seriously addressed the position.
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Re: Bucs Big Board Thread

Postby Nano » Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:19 pm

A good secondary can make the pass rush look better by forcing the QB to hold the ball longer. Hell, we saw that this year during our win streak when our secondary got stops despite our dline being inconsistent.
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Re: Bucs Big Board Thread

Postby Super K » Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:35 pm

Cmon, it's common sense..you don't need good corners when you have a legit/good pass rush..

For example, look at the Denver Broncos...



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Re: Bucs Big Board Thread

Postby Naismith » Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:36 pm

Nano wrote:A good secondary can make the pass rush look better by forcing the QB to hold the ball longer. Hell, we saw that this year during our win streak when our secondary got stops despite our dline being inconsistent.


I don't believe it's a sustainable model to have the strength of your defense be on the back end because every QB in the league can pick apart a defense given enough time. A pass rusher disrupts the entire offense, a CB affects the player he's covering.
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Re: Bucs Big Board Thread

Postby Super K » Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:43 pm

Naismith wrote:
Nano wrote:A good secondary can make the pass rush look better by forcing the QB to hold the ball longer. Hell, we saw that this year during our win streak when our secondary got stops despite our dline being inconsistent.


I don't believe it's a sustainable model to have the strength of your defense be on the back end because every QB in the league can pick apart a defense given enough time. A pass rusher disrupts the entire offense, a CB affects the player he's covering.


It's not sustainable either way, because if you have a monster pass rush, it usually means you have more than 1 guy providing said rush, meaning at some point those guys are gonna want to be paid top dollar..

Same thing on the backend..

It's all about the mix..
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Re: Bucs Big Board Thread

Postby Naismith » Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:52 pm

Yeah, you have to be smart with your money. If you invest most of your money and draft assets in your QB and both lines, you'll be way ahead of the curve.
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Re: Bucs Big Board Thread

Postby Nano » Mon Feb 13, 2017 10:03 pm

Or you'll be the Texans
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Re: Bucs Big Board Thread

Postby Naismith » Mon Feb 13, 2017 10:12 pm

Yeah, Texans are a good example of getting most of it right. Definitely can't invest all that money in the wrong QB.
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Re: Bucs Big Board Thread

Postby Cheb » Mon Feb 13, 2017 10:16 pm

Pass rush and pass coverage have a symbiotic relationship. It's neither one nor the other; it's both.
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Re: Bucs Big Board Thread

Postby Naismith » Mon Feb 13, 2017 10:26 pm

I would use what I have dubbed the 75-25 rule where 80% of all money and draft assets are used towards QB and the lines and 20% towards the other positions. You just always have young guys, contributing on rookie contracts that you're willing to let walk when their market value gets too high.
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Re: Bucs Big Board Thread

Postby Super K » Tue Feb 14, 2017 6:24 am

Naismith wrote:I would use what I have dubbed the 75-25 rule where 80% of all money and draft assets are used towards QB and the lines and 20% towards the other positions. You just always have young guys, contributing on rookie contracts that you're willing to let walk when their market value gets too high.


Naismith, you call it the 75/25 rule but use 80/20 to apply it? Why not just call it the 80/20 rule?

Anyway, using 80/20 on a 165mill cap leaves about 33mill for all players outside of QB/OL/DL...

In a perfect world where you draft TO and then when he is coming off of his rookie contract you draft Mike Evans thus negating the need to resign TO, this "may" work..

Unfortunately the game, nor the compilation of a team, is designed in a lab or test tube...

There are too many "rules" that folks use as end alls be alls in football..

The only rules there truly are (in the NFL):

1. MUST have a QB
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Re: Bucs Big Board Thread

Postby Naismith » Tue Feb 14, 2017 8:42 am

Super K wrote:Naismith, you call it the 75/25 rule but use 80/20 to apply it? Why not just call it the 80/20 rule?


Because then other teams could easily copy it. It's total deception.
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Re: Bucs Big Board Thread

Postby mdb1958 » Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:42 am

OK you have put up your discussion, now who is it you like for a cornerback for us?
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Re: Bucs Big Board Thread

Postby Naismith » Tue Feb 14, 2017 10:16 am

You address those positions based on BPA. And by that, I mean, at some point in the draft, your highest rated player is so separated from the rest of your board (like Kwon Alexander a few years ago) that you have no choice but to draft that person. When you have that separation, you have to take that player regardless of position (unless they are kickers/punters).
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Re: Bucs Big Board Thread

Postby mdb1958 » Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:34 pm

Cheb wrote:I've been thinking about the Bucs Big Board for awhile now. I am not going to quibble about this guy should be one spot above that guy; I'm not smart enough for that. These are my five tiers of reaction. The groups are organized alphabetically by first name. Although it is subject to change, my top 32 looks something like this:

Sprint to the Podium and Throw a Parade in Celebration (1-4)
Jonathan Allen, DL, Alabama
Malik Hooker, S, Ohio State
Myles Garrett, DE, Texas A&M
Solomon Thomas, DL, Stanford

I’m Pretty Excited (5-16)
Cam Robinson, OT, Alabama
Dalvin Cook, RB, Florida State
Derek Barnett, DE, Tennessee
Jamal Adams, S, LSU
John Ross, WR, Washington
Leonard Fournette, RB, LSU
Marlon Humphrey, CB, Alabama
Marshon Lattimore, CB, Ohio State
Mike Williams, WR, Clemson
OJ Howard, TE, Alabama
Reuben Foster, LB, Alabama
Ryan Ramczyk, OT, Wisconsin

Solid but I Was Hoping for Better (17-27)
Christian McCaffrey, RB, Stanford
Corey Davis, WR, Western Michigan
David Njoku, TE, Miami
Jabrill Peppers, S/OLB, Michigan
Jourdan Lewis, CB, Michigan
Sidney Jones, CB, Washington
Taco Charlton, DE, Michigan
Teez Tabor, CB, Florida
Tim Williams, DE, Alabama
Zach Cunningham, LB, Vanderbilt

No Thank You (28-29)
Malik McDowell, DL, Michigan State
Takkarist McKinley, DE, UCLA

WTF (30-32)
Mitch Trubinsky, QB, North Carolina
DeShone Kizer, QB, Notre Dame
Deshaun Watson, QB, Clemson




What would you think about McKinley if he dropped 15 pounds and ran a 4.48 at the combine.
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Re: Bucs Big Board Thread

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:43 pm

mdb1958 wrote:
Cheb wrote:I've been thinking about the Bucs Big Board for awhile now. I am not going to quibble about this guy should be one spot above that guy; I'm not smart enough for that. These are my five tiers of reaction. The groups are organized alphabetically by first name. Although it is subject to change, my top 32 looks something like this:

Sprint to the Podium and Throw a Parade in Celebration (1-4)
Jonathan Allen, DL, Alabama
Malik Hooker, S, Ohio State
Myles Garrett, DE, Texas A&M
Solomon Thomas, DL, Stanford

I’m Pretty Excited (5-16)
Cam Robinson, OT, Alabama
Dalvin Cook, RB, Florida State
Derek Barnett, DE, Tennessee
Jamal Adams, S, LSU
John Ross, WR, Washington
Leonard Fournette, RB, LSU
Marlon Humphrey, CB, Alabama
Marshon Lattimore, CB, Ohio State
Mike Williams, WR, Clemson
OJ Howard, TE, Alabama
Reuben Foster, LB, Alabama
Ryan Ramczyk, OT, Wisconsin

Solid but I Was Hoping for Better (17-27)
Christian McCaffrey, RB, Stanford
Corey Davis, WR, Western Michigan
David Njoku, TE, Miami
Jabrill Peppers, S/OLB, Michigan
Jourdan Lewis, CB, Michigan
Sidney Jones, CB, Washington
Taco Charlton, DE, Michigan
Teez Tabor, CB, Florida
Tim Williams, DE, Alabama
Zach Cunningham, LB, Vanderbilt

No Thank You (28-29)
Malik McDowell, DL, Michigan State
Takkarist McKinley, DE, UCLA

WTF (30-32)
Mitch Trubinsky, QB, North Carolina
DeShone Kizer, QB, Notre Dame
Deshaun Watson, QB, Clemson




What would you think about McKinley if he dropped 15 pounds and ran a 4.48 at the combine.

He still needs to work on his technique. Watch the Utah tape.
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Re: Bucs Big Board Thread

Postby Cheb » Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:26 pm

mdb1958 wrote:
Cheb wrote:I've been thinking about the Bucs Big Board for awhile now. I am not going to quibble about this guy should be one spot above that guy; I'm not smart enough for that. These are my five tiers of reaction. The groups are organized alphabetically by first name. Although it is subject to change, my top 32 looks something like this:

Sprint to the Podium and Throw a Parade in Celebration (1-4)
Jonathan Allen, DL, Alabama
Malik Hooker, S, Ohio State
Myles Garrett, DE, Texas A&M
Solomon Thomas, DL, Stanford

I’m Pretty Excited (5-16)
Cam Robinson, OT, Alabama
Dalvin Cook, RB, Florida State
Derek Barnett, DE, Tennessee
Jamal Adams, S, LSU
John Ross, WR, Washington
Leonard Fournette, RB, LSU
Marlon Humphrey, CB, Alabama
Marshon Lattimore, CB, Ohio State
Mike Williams, WR, Clemson
OJ Howard, TE, Alabama
Reuben Foster, LB, Alabama
Ryan Ramczyk, OT, Wisconsin

Solid but I Was Hoping for Better (17-27)
Christian McCaffrey, RB, Stanford
Corey Davis, WR, Western Michigan
David Njoku, TE, Miami
Jabrill Peppers, S/OLB, Michigan
Jourdan Lewis, CB, Michigan
Sidney Jones, CB, Washington
Taco Charlton, DE, Michigan
Teez Tabor, CB, Florida
Tim Williams, DE, Alabama
Zach Cunningham, LB, Vanderbilt

No Thank You (28-29)
Malik McDowell, DL, Michigan State
Takkarist McKinley, DE, UCLA

WTF (30-32)
Mitch Trubinsky, QB, North Carolina
DeShone Kizer, QB, Notre Dame
Deshaun Watson, QB, Clemson




What would you think about McKinley if he dropped 15 pounds and ran a 4.48 at the combine.


I don't care if a prospect drops his BMI or runs well on a track. I care if he is good at playing football.
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Re: Bucs Big Board Thread

Postby Brazen331 » Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:54 pm

Cheb wrote:
mdb1958 wrote:


What would you think about McKinley if he dropped 15 pounds and ran a 4.48 at the combine.


I don't care if a prospect drops his BMI or runs well on a track. I care if he is good at playing football.


There is no doubt that a couple of prospects in the 2nd tier will be available. What is the major objection to McDowell? Is it off the field stuff? I would prefer him over Taco and a couple other players listed above. I would also put Quincy Wilson on the list. Looks like we might have a shot at every CB beside Lattimore; he is consistently mocked in the top 10.
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Re: Bucs Big Board Thread

Postby real bucs fan » Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:51 am

Post combine, and with Gholston back, these are the 20 guys I'm looking at 19. (Not ordered)

Myles Garrett
Solomon Thomas
Jared Allen
Derek Barnett

Jamal Adams
Malik Hooker
Jabril Peppers

Marshon Lattimore
Marlon Humphrey
Sidney Jones

Cam Robinson
Ryan Ramcsyk
Forrest Lamp

OJ Howard

Corey Davis
Mike Williams
John Ross

Leonard Fournette
Dalvin Cook
Alvin Kamara
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Re: Bucs Big Board Thread

Postby paco74 » Tue Mar 07, 2017 3:01 pm

I've never seen him play at UConn, but looking at him at the Combine, Obi Melifonwu was a pure freak of nature. As a 6'4" safety he ran a 4.40s 40, 44" vertical and 11'9" broad and the kid supposedly can play all around the backfield? Like I said, I know nothing more than what I saw the other day, but damn.
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Re: Bucs Big Board Thread

Postby Doctor » Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:20 am

Combine did nothing to change my top 20, because the combine doesn't mean ****.
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