Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby Kress » Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:10 am

Not an end, but from Clemson's front Dexter Lawrence is my guy. 6'5", 350 pounds, and can damn sure run faster than me. He plays low, with good moves, and finishes. His closing speed is crazy for a big guy. He just messes **** up consistently.
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby mdb1958 » Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:03 am

Kress wrote:Not an end, but from Clemson's front Dexter Lawrence is my guy. 6'5", 350 pounds, and can damn sure run faster than me. He plays low, with good moves, and finishes. His closing speed is crazy for a big guy. He just messes **** up consistently.


I did see where he had 7 sacks in 2016

If you come up with anything else on him, move him over to the DT's.
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby mdb1958 » Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:10 am

Back to D-II Marcus Martin from Slippery Rock, his numbers warrant that we should do everything we can to get him in camp to get a better look at him if he goes undrafted.

Extra money!
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby mdb1958 » Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:15 am

What will it mean for some of these college sack guys that are adding weight now, 3-4 linebackers?

Here is one

http://www.astateredwolves.com/ViewArti ... =208811481
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:59 pm

From "Players we should be watching"

Mountaineer Buc wrote:Hercules Mata'afa DE, Washington State. 6'2 255

Wicked first step. Uses speed to get around bigger defenders and they even have him shoot the A gap from time to time.

Watch him shoot inside the RT at 4:50 and practically take the handoff.

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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby Kress » Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:33 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:From "Players we should be watching"

Mountaineer Buc wrote:Hercules Mata'afa DE, Washington State. 6'2 255

Wicked first step. Uses speed to get around bigger defenders and they even have him shoot the A gap from time to time.

Watch him shoot inside the RT at 4:50 and practically take the handoff.




I haven't watched him before. He looks like McCoy 2.0. Even if he's not making the play, he's messing stuff up.
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:09 pm

Kress wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:From "Players we should be watching"




I haven't watched him before. He looks like McCoy 2.0. Even if he's not making the play, he's messing stuff up.

I really like that speed. Cougars use a 3 man front so he gets to shoot the a and b gaps a lot. I think you put him on a 4-3 and he's going to give tackles fits.
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby Jason Bourne » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:07 pm

DE. Kentavious Street - 700 lb squat -475 lb bench -4.6 40

Bucs were interviewing this guy today

https://www.google.com/amp/www.stack.co ... -yard-dash
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby mdb1958 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:14 pm

Jason Bourne wrote:DE. Kentavious Street - 700 lb squat -475 lb bench -4.6 40

Bucs were interviewing this guy today

https://www.google.com/amp/www.stack.co ... -yard-dash


Dont see where its transferred to the football field yet.
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby Jason Bourne » Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:25 am

mdb1958 wrote:
Jason Bourne wrote:DE. Kentavious Street - 700 lb squat -475 lb bench -4.6 40

Bucs were interviewing this guy today

https://www.google.com/amp/www.stack.co ... -yard-dash


Dont see where its transferred to the football field yet.


Check out my post from the east west shrine game , he look good in practice
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby mdb1958 » Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:45 am

The only thing I see on your link is him working out. I'd rather see whatever amount of weight he could squat fifty times. Something that is going to develop many years of stamina.
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby Jason Bourne » Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:15 am

mdb1958 wrote:The only thing I see on your link is him working out. I'd rather see whatever amount of weight he could squat fifty times. Something that is going to develop many years of stamina.


5th paragraph , late rd draft pick maybe

http://walterfootball.com/eastwest2018practice3.php
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby UbuntuBuc » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:06 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Doctor wrote:Now it starts... With Tampa now picking at #7 and likely out of reach of Chubb, I can't wait to hear everyone's all new take on DE's that were meh two days ago but are now all of the sudden "top ten" to them.... Time to break out the "draft for need" goggles...

It's not a reach if the guy will likely be gone when you pick again.


It is if you could trade down and still get him. Taking a guy at 7 who could get picked up at 20 is a reach.
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:10 am

UbuntuBuc wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:It's not a reach if the guy will likely be gone when you pick again.


It is if you could trade down and still get him. Taking a guy at 7 who could get picked up at 20 is a reach.

Coulda woulda shoulda.

You have to have a trading partner. If the only offer you get is **** (20th pick, next year's 7th take it or leave it) Do you take the deal to avoid some jackwagon saying you reached? Or do you take the ****ing guy you want and call it a day?

Occam's Razor.
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby Kress » Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:57 pm

Stand pat and take the guy we want. We need a splash player, not numbers. This team already has talent. We just need some icing.
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby DreadNaught » Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:30 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
UbuntuBuc wrote:
It is if you could trade down and still get him. Taking a guy at 7 who could get picked up at 20 is a reach.

Coulda woulda shoulda.

You have to have a trading partner. If the only offer you get is **** (20th pick, next year's 7th take it or leave it) Do you take the deal to avoid some jackwagon saying you reached? Or do you take the ****ing guy you want and call it a day?

Occam's Razor.


Taking a guy at 7 that you think should go 20th is the definition of drafting for need, which is something I've always believed should be avoided at all cost when drafting in round 1.

1st rounders have the highest hit rate and are the future building blocks of your roster. Positional needs are temporary, so if you focus in on a need in round 1 and lose sight of the big board/picture it leads to misses and you're chasing your tail for years to come.

This is why I don't think fans should be upset if we drafted Barkley. Despite anyone's opinion on the positional value of a RB, I don't think we can deny that Barkley is one of the best non-QBs in this draft in addition to the Bucs RB depth chart being one of the worst in the NFL.

From rounds 2-7 I think positional need should (and is) factored in more b/c it's must easier (less costly) to move up or down to target the prospect/position you want to address.

Ideally need and value intersect when your team is on the clock. Hopefully that will be the case for the Bucs at 7 with Chubb. But if not I sure as hell don't want to draft a DE at 7 that we have a late 1st round grade on. Take the highest graded player on your board that would be the most significant upgrade on the depth chart in round 1.
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby mdb1958 » Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:43 pm

You never get the benefit of viewing the teams rankings

Go to a mock draft database and pick one, its the same with me every year, half of them I would'nt want in the first and some I wouldnt want period.

Its not where they are ranked, its being right with who you picked.
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby mdb1958 » Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:47 pm

The rankings are a league wide consensus viewpoint.
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:24 pm

mdb1958 wrote:The rankings are a league wide consensus viewpoint.

mdb with a truth bomb.

NO NFL FRANCHISE SITS DOWN TO DO THE DRAFT WITH MEL KIPER'S BOARD. NOT ONE.

They each build their own damned boards 32 different ways. They move up and down guys and take guys off for any number of reasons. When a team is on the clock, they look at their big board and positionals and make the call.

This happens every fuuuuuukin year. A guy projected to go in the back end of the first gets picked in the top ten and everybody goes WOAH! then they run to the GM and ask him why he took that guy and he says......."He was to top guy on our board".

AND HE'S TELLING THE TRUTH! But that's just not good enough for guys who wanted player X when the GM took player Y and they make up stupid excuses to explain it "They reached for that guy" "That guy is a bit of a reach". Bullshit.

When you are on the clock you have exactly 32 players (most of the time) to choose from because everybody else is going to pick before you pick again. If you did not choose one of the 32...you reached. If you chose one of the 32, you took your guy.

END
OF
STORY
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby mdb1958 » Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:59 pm

So who drafts Jaylon Ferguson and why is he getting knocked off peoples rankings.
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby MJW » Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:31 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
mdb1958 wrote:The rankings are a league wide consensus viewpoint.

mdb with a truth bomb.

NO NFL FRANCHISE SITS DOWN TO DO THE DRAFT WITH MEL KIPER'S BOARD. NOT ONE.

They each build their own damned boards 32 different ways. They move up and down guys and take guys off for any number of reasons. When a team is on the clock, they look at their big board and positionals and make the call.

This happens every fuuuuuukin year. A guy projected to go in the back end of the first gets picked in the top ten and everybody goes WOAH! then they run to the GM and ask him why he took that guy and he says......."He was to top guy on our board".

AND HE'S TELLING THE TRUTH! But that's just not good enough for guys who wanted player X when the GM took player Y and they make up stupid excuses to explain it "They reached for that guy" "That guy is a bit of a reach". Bullshit.

When you are on the clock you have exactly 32 players (most of the time) to choose from because everybody else is going to pick before you pick again. If you did not choose one of the 32...you reached. If you chose one of the 32, you took your guy.

END
OF
STORY


I'm going to put one caveat out there:

The big board? I agree.

But they DO pay attention to the mock drafts. I've heard way too many GMs say so. They're otherwise very myopic about their own evaluations, and they use "public" mocks to get a rough idea of where guys are "supposed" to go, for the sake of understand what the other teams in the draft MIGHT be thinking.

Carry on.
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby mdb1958 » Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:21 am

I bet Jason and his draft team spend a lot of time on who the other 31 teams are likely to pick so they can get an idea of who will be there for their next pick.


First thing I thought about your post MJW.

Jason says this is the direction were going and a scout says but the fans are wanting a fresh new running back. He says I know and this sucks, I got to build this team for the future and those damn fans (who happen to put their butts in the seats) want a running back. what to do what to do
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby MJW » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:24 am

mdb1958 wrote:I bet Jason and his draft team spend a lot of time on who the other 31 teams are likely to pick so they can get an idea of who will be there for their next pick.


First thing I thought about your post MJW.

Jason says this is the direction were going and a scout says but the fans are wanting a fresh new running back. He says I know and this sucks, I got to build this team for the future and those damn fans (who happen to put their butts in the seats) want a running back. what to do what to do


Ironically, drafting a running back is the WORST way to help a team long-term, of the reasonable options. They have (statistically) the shortest shelf lives of all positions. They fall off the cliff quickly and violently, sometimes after only 4 or 5 years (see: Doug Martin.) By the time we got this broken roster to Superbowl contention, even if we did REALLY well in the draft, the running back we drafted in 2018 would be in marked decline. You draft the Running Back LAST, if you have to draft him high at all. He's not the engine or the transmission. He's the racing stripe.

I kind of look at running backs the same way I look at baseball closers, in general: You shouldn't invest a lot in them, a lot of guys can do it well if given the chance, and they're basically a waste of time for bad teams.
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby real bucs fan » Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:17 am

MJW wrote:
mdb1958 wrote:I bet Jason and his draft team spend a lot of time on who the other 31 teams are likely to pick so they can get an idea of who will be there for their next pick.


First thing I thought about your post MJW.

Jason says this is the direction were going and a scout says but the fans are wanting a fresh new running back. He says I know and this sucks, I got to build this team for the future and those damn fans (who happen to put their butts in the seats) want a running back. what to do what to do


Ironically, drafting a running back is the WORST way to help a team long-term, of the reasonable options. They have (statistically) the shortest shelf lives of all positions. They fall off the cliff quickly and violently, sometimes after only 4 or 5 years (see: Doug Martin.) By the time we got this broken roster to Superbowl contention, even if we did REALLY well in the draft, the running back we drafted in 2018 would be in marked decline. You draft the Running Back LAST, if you have to draft him high at all. He's not the engine or the transmission. He's the racing stripe.

I kind of look at running backs the same way I look at baseball closers, in general: You shouldn't invest a lot in them, a lot of guys can do it well if given the chance, and they're basically a waste of time for bad teams.


We're ready for the RB. We have the QB, we have the WR, we have the TE, we have the LT, we have the C. All 5 are 24/25. Drafting a 20 year old RB fits the timeline.

This is a little OT but I'm responding to this post. You seem to not realize that a run game helps everything. It's synergenic. You're failure is that you view the pass game and the run game as completely separate entities. You think our pass game is good enough in spite of our dreadful run game, we just need to fix the defence. While I agree "fixing the defence" needs to be done, but it can take years of assets allocated and defensive greatness can never happen. Whereas you can literally give yourself an elite run game by adding 1 guy. And if you really want to maximize and develop your #1 overall QB and allow him and this pass game to reach it's potential, you need to get the guy a run game. It will make everything else easier. It's no coincidence that teams who find themselves a star RB have massive turnarounds. Jacksonville. Dallas. New Orleans even. KC. Philadelphia. The Rams... I mean the list goes on.... you plug in Ezekial Elliott into this offence (and I believe Barkley is a better version of Zeke), and you'll see Jameis regarded as one of the best QBs in the league IMMEDIATELY. The turnovers will go down, the completions will go up. Heck even the big passing plays will go up. Then this offence will have synergy as defences are given a tremendous run/pass conflict and are unable to stop either. And this team, will be right in the playoff mix....
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby Jason Bourne » Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:23 am

real bucs fan wrote:
MJW wrote:
Ironically, drafting a running back is the WORST way to help a team long-term, of the reasonable options. They have (statistically) the shortest shelf lives of all positions. They fall off the cliff quickly and violently, sometimes after only 4 or 5 years (see: Doug Martin.) By the time we got this broken roster to Superbowl contention, even if we did REALLY well in the draft, the running back we drafted in 2018 would be in marked decline. You draft the Running Back LAST, if you have to draft him high at all. He's not the engine or the transmission. He's the racing stripe.

I kind of look at running backs the same way I look at baseball closers, in general: You shouldn't invest a lot in them, a lot of guys can do it well if given the chance, and they're basically a waste of time for bad teams.


We're ready for the RB. We have the QB, we have the WR, we have the TE, we have the LT, we have the C. All 5 are 24/25. Drafting a 20 year old RB fits the timeline.

This is a little OT but I'm responding to this post. You seem to not realize that a run game helps everything. It's synergenic. You're failure is that you view the pass game and the run game as completely separate entities. You think our pass game is good enough in spite of our dreadful run game, we just need to fix the defence. While I agree "fixing the defence" needs to be done, but it can take years of assets allocated and defensive greatness can never happen. Whereas you can literally give yourself an elite run game by adding 1 guy. And if you really want to maximize and develop your #1 overall QB and allow him and this pass game to reach it's potential, you need to get the guy a run game. It will make everything else easier. It's no coincidence that teams who find themselves a star RB have massive turnarounds. Jacksonville. Dallas. New Orleans even. KC. Philadelphia. The Rams... I mean the list goes on.... you plug in Ezekial Elliott into this offence (and I believe Barkley is a better version of Zeke), and you'll see Jameis regarded as one of the best QBs in the league IMMEDIATELY. The turnovers will go down, the completions will go up. Heck even the big passing plays will go up. Then this offence will have synergy as defences are given a tremendous run/pass conflict and are unable to stop either. And this team, will be right in the playoff mix....


Yeah too bad we don’t have a defense to close out games . Hello 5-11 again but hey we have a great rb
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby real bucs fan » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:08 am

Jason Bourne wrote:
real bucs fan wrote:
We're ready for the RB. We have the QB, we have the WR, we have the TE, we have the LT, we have the C. All 5 are 24/25. Drafting a 20 year old RB fits the timeline.

This is a little OT but I'm responding to this post. You seem to not realize that a run game helps everything. It's synergenic. You're failure is that you view the pass game and the run game as completely separate entities. You think our pass game is good enough in spite of our dreadful run game, we just need to fix the defence. While I agree "fixing the defence" needs to be done, but it can take years of assets allocated and defensive greatness can never happen. Whereas you can literally give yourself an elite run game by adding 1 guy. And if you really want to maximize and develop your #1 overall QB and allow him and this pass game to reach it's potential, you need to get the guy a run game. It will make everything else easier. It's no coincidence that teams who find themselves a star RB have massive turnarounds. Jacksonville. Dallas. New Orleans even. KC. Philadelphia. The Rams... I mean the list goes on.... you plug in Ezekial Elliott into this offence (and I believe Barkley is a better version of Zeke), and you'll see Jameis regarded as one of the best QBs in the league IMMEDIATELY. The turnovers will go down, the completions will go up. Heck even the big passing plays will go up. Then this offence will have synergy as defences are given a tremendous run/pass conflict and are unable to stop either. And this team, will be right in the playoff mix....


Yeah too bad we don’t have a defense to close out games . Hello 5-11 again but hey we have a great rb


If you add Barkley to this offence we could have an elite offence that could keep up with anyone...
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby Bootz2004 » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:19 am

I think we'd all rather have a team that can win games than an offenSe that can "keep up with anyone".
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby DreadNaught » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:20 am

MJW wrote:
mdb1958 wrote:I bet Jason and his draft team spend a lot of time on who the other 31 teams are likely to pick so they can get an idea of who will be there for their next pick.


First thing I thought about your post MJW.

Jason says this is the direction were going and a scout says but the fans are wanting a fresh new running back. He says I know and this sucks, I got to build this team for the future and those damn fans (who happen to put their butts in the seats) want a running back. what to do what to do


Ironically, drafting a running back is the WORST way to help a team long-term, of the reasonable options. They have (statistically) the shortest shelf lives of all positions. They fall off the cliff quickly and violently, sometimes after only 4 or 5 years (see: Doug Martin.) By the time we got this broken roster to Superbowl contention, even if we did REALLY well in the draft, the running back we drafted in 2018 would be in marked decline. You draft the Running Back LAST, if you have to draft him high at all. He's not the engine or the transmission. He's the racing stripe.

I kind of look at running backs the same way I look at baseball closers, in general: You shouldn't invest a lot in them, a lot of guys can do it well if given the chance, and they're basically a waste of time for bad teams.


I understand this logic and I think 2-3 years ago this mindset was more accepted/popular. However there is some evidence that past few years in which the the points you made are no longer the case when it comes to the value of a RB in the NFL. Look at guys like Bell, Zeke, Hunt, Fournette, Kamara, Gurley and the impact they make for their team. They all make things easier for their QB as defenses stack the LOS to stop them, in addition to keeping their own defense off the field with their ability to keep the chains moving.

When it comes to the Bucs most here agree that defense/pass rush is priority #1 this offseason. But addressing the run game is next and we've all seen what having 'that guy' at RB can do for a team.

In terms of the 'long term' impact of a RB, I think you're overstating that point. I'd agree that the shelf life of a RB is short, but the same is true of CB's and even WR's where there is a decline once players hit 30. So I think it's more of the position requiring speed and explosiveness for success which are the first things to go as athletes get older and why QBs and Olinemen can sustain their level of play for longer. But if any team can 'hit' on a player regardless of position and get 6-7 years of elite production from him than it's a really good draft pick. That is an eternity in the NFL and expecting outliers like Adrian Peterson, Julias Peppers, or Derrick Brooks that were able to defy father time for a bit are outliers other than the standard one should measure a draft pick to imo.

Like myself and others have commented previously, running the ball and pressuring the QB is how winning teams close out games in the 4th quarter. We have the QB and weapons to comeback from deficits late in games, but as we saw repeatedly this season it does no good when you can't pressure the other teams QB when they are forced to pass or run the ball to kill the clock late in games.

If the Bucs get better in those 2 areas there is no reason the team can't flip things around in 2018. I don't see the roster being broken like you stated requiring 5 years to fix. Far from it tbh.
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby Bootz2004 » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:24 am

Having a top RB hasn't equated to any championships for those teams.
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Re: Draft Watch: Defensive Ends

Postby beardmcdoug » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:30 am

MJW wrote:
mdb1958 wrote:I bet Jason and his draft team spend a lot of time on who the other 31 teams are likely to pick so they can get an idea of who will be there for their next pick.


First thing I thought about your post MJW.

Jason says this is the direction were going and a scout says but the fans are wanting a fresh new running back. He says I know and this sucks, I got to build this team for the future and those damn fans (who happen to put their butts in the seats) want a running back. what to do what to do


Ironically, drafting a running back is the WORST way to help a team long-term, of the reasonable options. They have (statistically) the shortest shelf lives of all positions. They fall off the cliff quickly and violently, sometimes after only 4 or 5 years (see: Doug Martin.) By the time we got this broken roster to Superbowl contention, even if we did REALLY well in the draft, the running back we drafted in 2018 would be in marked decline. You draft the Running Back LAST, if you have to draft him high at all. He's not the engine or the transmission. He's the racing stripe.

I kind of look at running backs the same way I look at baseball closers, in general: You shouldn't invest a lot in them, a lot of guys can do it well if given the chance, and they're basically a waste of time for bad teams.


here I go again, finding myself agreeing with MJW 100% randomly...

People look at the playoff teams and say to themselves "look at all these playoff teams, the Jags, the Steelers, the Saints, the Chiefs - they all have young studs at RB's - we need to draft an RB"

but the reality is, the Jags have been investing in PREMIUM talent on that defense with PREMIUM draft picks for YEARS, just like the Saints have, the Steelers have, and the Vikings have. And not only have they spent the draft capital, they've actually had them WORK OUT. Ramsey, Jack, Fowler Jr, Lattimore, Williams, Vonn Bell, Cam Jordan, Marcus Peters, Adoree Jackson, Anthony Barr, Xavier Rhodes, Harrison Smith, Trae Waynes. And on top of that, these playoff teams have had HUGE luck with their hits on their free agency signings - guys like Calais Campbell having his best year ever, Bouye actually being the man they signed (unlike our own Verner/Michael Johnson signings).

All these teams have first invested in their D heavily through the draft, got "lucky" with their free agency signings, and then they were able to put the icing on with a stud RB. The Pats are the exception, but they have the GOAT coach and the GOAT player. The chiefs are probably the other outlier, not having invested as much on the defense as all the other playoff teams - but they've got the most explosive offense in the league with skill players like Tyreek Hill and Kelce - anchored by a CONSISTENT and TURNOVER-FREE type QB in Alex Smith.

Our D is weak as **** right now. Our QB is a turnover machine (i love him) and every single one of our recent FA signings has been a dud. We're not even close to putting the icing on the cake. We've still got to build the boring way, through the trenches. We're 2-3 years away, at the least, from a significant playoff run
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