Jameis Winston Contract

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Re: Jameis Winston Contract

Postby Buc2 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:40 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
beardmcdoug wrote:
Colin Kaepernick


He was never a top QB. I don’t think you understand the question.

Whoosh!
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Re: Jameis Winston Contract

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:38 pm

Tim Rattay had a start?
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Re: Jameis Winston Contract

Postby Agent Orange » Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:58 pm

Swashy wrote:
Cheb wrote:
In seven season Andy Dalton has made the Pro Bowl three times, took his team to the playoffs five times, and has a winning career record by a healthy margin. In fact, the only year where he didn't make the Pro Bowl or the playoffs was last season.

If Jameis Winston turns into Andy Dalton, Tampa would throw him a ***damn parade.


Sad but true.

I am very reluctant with Winston moving forward. It's been 3 years and his "common sense" IQ is in the tank and I fear he has plateaued. We are NOT going to win a Super Bowl with a guy who air mails passes 25 yards down field into double coverage on 2nd and 6 when a safer play can be made at over half the distance. Nor can he make that same play to a receiver in stride in single coverage at double the distance. He makes so many bad choices because he wants to be a hero and only on the occasion that it works out we forget about things for a minute. Given his current state of progression I'll be shocked if we win any more than 7 games this year.

Unless Winston proves me wrong with a 180 I think management would be foolish to sign him to a mega deal


That is basically where I am at with him. He makes some of the most boneheaded plays I have ever seen. I actually preferred it when Fitz was playing last year. Ler's just hope they don't fork over the new contract too soon. Most likely he will have issues again this year and I don't see how they can overlook them again.
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Re: Jameis Winston Contract

Postby sanka » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:12 pm

Cheb wrote:
Teitan wrote:
Andy Dalton 2.0


In seven season Andy Dalton has made the Pro Bowl three times, took his team to the playoffs five times, and has a winning career record by a healthy margin. In fact, the only year where he didn't make the Pro Bowl or the playoffs was last season.

If Jameis Winston turns into Andy Dalton, Tampa would throw him a ***damn parade.

:lol: :lol: @ Andy Dalton.

First of all, Winston is way better than Dalton.

Yea he has made the playoffs then lays a giant egg in the playoffs. Zero playoffs win just like Winston and he has 4 years over Winston in experience. You don't want your Qb to emulate a failure like Dalton.
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Re: Jameis Winston Contract

Postby PrimeMinister » Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:09 am

Bootz2004 wrote:Talented QBs don’t plateau at 24. I’d say being a 24 year old QB is the same as being a 20 year old at nearly every other position. Winston has years and years of learning and refinement and mastering of the QB position to do.

Dread, Stamford is actually a good example of this. As you’ve stated the last 3 years have been his best. You can look across the league and you’ll see that most top QBs don’t become such until their early 30s. If you actually think someone will have the QB position down to a science at age 24 and after just 3 or 4 years in the NFL you’re sorely mistaken and living in a fantasy world. If that were the case the position would be easy and there wouldn’t be a need to invest so much into the position.


All of this. Fans are amazingly impatient. If Winston is at the top of his game by 30 years old he was a GREAT pick. He is progressing year to year which is all you can ask of the position.
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Re: Jameis Winston Contract

Postby acmillis » Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:47 am

PrimeMinister wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:Talented QBs don’t plateau at 24. I’d say being a 24 year old QB is the same as being a 20 year old at nearly every other position. Winston has years and years of learning and refinement and mastering of the QB position to do.

Dread, Stamford is actually a good example of this. As you’ve stated the last 3 years have been his best. You can look across the league and you’ll see that most top QBs don’t become such until their early 30s. If you actually think someone will have the QB position down to a science at age 24 and after just 3 or 4 years in the NFL you’re sorely mistaken and living in a fantasy world. If that were the case the position would be easy and there wouldn’t be a need to invest so much into the position.


All of this. Fans are amazingly impatient. If Winston is at the top of his game by 30 years old he was a GREAT pick. He is progressing year to year which is all you can ask of the position.

I guess that is what happens when you haven't made the playoffs in over a decade and only the Browns have a longer drought.
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Re: Jameis Winston Contract

Postby PrimeMinister » Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:54 am

acmillis wrote:
PrimeMinister wrote:
All of this. Fans are amazingly impatient. If Winston is at the top of his game by 30 years old he was a GREAT pick. He is progressing year to year which is all you can ask of the position.

I guess that is what happens when you haven't made the playoffs in over a decade and only the Browns have a longer drought.


Are we discussing the Bucs over a 10 year period or the progression of our 24yr old QB over the last 3 years?
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Re: Jameis Winston Contract

Postby acmillis » Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:14 am

PrimeMinister wrote:
acmillis wrote:I guess that is what happens when you haven't made the playoffs in over a decade and only the Browns have a longer drought.


Are we discussing the Bucs over a 10 year period or the progression of our 24yr old QB over the last 3 years?


I think we're talking about how our current QB is most likely about to get paid more than he's worth based on his current production.
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Re: Jameis Winston Contract

Postby PrimeMinister » Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:16 am

acmillis wrote:
PrimeMinister wrote:
Are we discussing the Bucs over a 10 year period or the progression of our 24yr old QB over the last 3 years?


I think we're talking about how our current QB is most likely about to get paid more than he's worth based on his current production.


So why bring in the Browns or the past 10 years?? What do 7 of those years have to do with Winston?
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Re: Jameis Winston Contract

Postby Bootz2004 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:17 am

acmillis wrote:
PrimeMinister wrote:
Are we discussing the Bucs over a 10 year period or the progression of our 24yr old QB over the last 3 years?


I think we're talking about how our current QB is most likely about to get paid more than he's worth based on his current production.


And what type of production would you expect from a QB in his 1st 3 seasons?
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Re: Jameis Winston Contract

Postby acmillis » Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:32 am

PrimeMinister wrote:
acmillis wrote:
I think we're talking about how our current QB is most likely about to get paid more than he's worth based on his current production.


So why bring in the Browns or the past 10 years?? What do 7 of those years have to do with Winston?

Fair enough.

My issue is that a lot of folks on this board are extremely satisfied with Winston and my stance is...why? I'm looking at W/L record (not good), all the turnovers (not good and not progressing over his three years).

Does he have potential? Sure. Should we pay him 30+ mil/year for what he's done in the past? No.

I do believe we will pay him an ungodly amount, but I'm a pessimist and JW isn't giving me much reason to be an optimist.
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Re: Jameis Winston Contract

Postby acmillis » Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:38 am

Bootz2004 wrote:
acmillis wrote:
I think we're talking about how our current QB is most likely about to get paid more than he's worth based on his current production.


And what type of production would you expect from a QB in his 1st 3 seasons?


More wins and less turnovers. A win percentage of > .40?

A TD/TO ration of better than 1.2/1 (60 TOs, 77 TDs)?
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Re: Jameis Winston Contract

Postby PrimeMinister » Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:51 am

acmillis wrote:
PrimeMinister wrote:
So why bring in the Browns or the past 10 years?? What do 7 of those years have to do with Winston?

Fair enough.

My issue is that a lot of folks on this board are extremely satisfied with Winston and my stance is...why? I'm looking at W/L record (not good), all the turnovers (not good and not progressing over his three years).

Does he have potential? Sure. Should we pay him 30+ mil/year for what he's done in the past? No.

I do believe we will pay him an ungodly amount, but I'm a pessimist and JW isn't giving me much reason to be an optimist.


Ideally contracts should be about what the player will do vs only what they’ve done. Winston’s contract will be for the next 5 years of production.

Regarding TO’s interceptions bother me more than fumbles and Winston improved his interception % last year. Last season I recall at least 3 fumbles that were due to Ali learning how to snap the football. With Jensen I’m no longer concerned about the QB/C exchange. Winston also had several fumbles impacted by piss poor line play. Again I’m expecting a better OL this season. Sometimes Winston just held on to the ball too damn long and he has to get better in that regard. I don’t expect Winston to be a top 5 QB by year 3 or even a Top 10 QB already, but I do believe he will become Top 5.
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Re: Jameis Winston Contract

Postby acmillis » Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:22 am

PrimeMinister wrote:
acmillis wrote:Fair enough.

My issue is that a lot of folks on this board are extremely satisfied with Winston and my stance is...why? I'm looking at W/L record (not good), all the turnovers (not good and not progressing over his three years).

Does he have potential? Sure. Should we pay him 30+ mil/year for what he's done in the past? No.

I do believe we will pay him an ungodly amount, but I'm a pessimist and JW isn't giving me much reason to be an optimist.


Ideally contracts should be about what the player will do vs only what they’ve done. Winston’s contract will be for the next 5 years of production.

Regarding TO’s interceptions bother me more than fumbles and Winston improved his interception % last year. Last season I recall at least 3 fumbles that were due to Ali learning how to snap the football. With Jensen I’m no longer concerned about the QB/C exchange. Winston also had several fumbles impacted by piss poor line play. Again I’m expecting a better OL this season. Sometimes Winston just held on to the ball too damn long and he has to get better in that regard. I don’t expect Winston to be a top 5 QB by year 3 or even a Top 10 QB already, but I do believe he will become Top 5.

I certainly hope so and I'm extremely happy that we still have two seasons' worth of play before having to make a huge decision.

Here is to hoping I'm wrong on him!
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Re: Jameis Winston Contract

Postby Bootz2004 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:25 pm

acmillis wrote:
PrimeMinister wrote:
Ideally contracts should be about what the player will do vs only what they’ve done. Winston’s contract will be for the next 5 years of production.

Regarding TO’s interceptions bother me more than fumbles and Winston improved his interception % last year. Last season I recall at least 3 fumbles that were due to Ali learning how to snap the football. With Jensen I’m no longer concerned about the QB/C exchange. Winston also had several fumbles impacted by piss poor line play. Again I’m expecting a better OL this season. Sometimes Winston just held on to the ball too damn long and he has to get better in that regard. I don’t expect Winston to be a top 5 QB by year 3 or even a Top 10 QB already, but I do believe he will become Top 5.

I certainly hope so and I'm extremely happy that we still have two seasons' worth of play before having to make a huge decision.

Here is to hoping I'm wrong on him!


The decision is already made. Now the decisions are how many years, how much per year, how much guaranteed and I guarantee you none of those will be small figures. Keep in mind Jimmy G got what was then the largest deal ever on 12 TDs, 5 INTs and 7 career starts.
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Re: Jameis Winston Contract

Postby Buc2 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:40 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
acmillis wrote:I certainly hope so and I'm extremely happy that we still have two seasons' worth of play before having to make a huge decision.

Here is to hoping I'm wrong on him!


The decision is already made. Now the decisions are how many years, how much per year, how much guaranteed and I guarantee you none of those will be small figures. Keep in mind Jimmy G got what was then the largest deal ever on 12 TDs, 5 INTs and 7 career starts.

Yep. It's all about expected potential. Ball sport athletes aren't evaluated like everyday jobs. You and I get merit raises based on our past performance (annual evaluations are usually the tool they use). Athletes, like Winston, it's all about expectations of future performance. Sure...they will look at the past, but it's usually to make sure the athlete isn't trending in a negative direction. I don't care what stats you look at, Winston is not trending negatively. He's going to get paid a hefty chunk of change. And rightly so.
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Re: Jameis Winston Contract

Postby terrytate » Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:32 pm

Buc2 wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
The decision is already made. Now the decisions are how many years, how much per year, how much guaranteed and I guarantee you none of those will be small figures. Keep in mind Jimmy G got what was then the largest deal ever on 12 TDs, 5 INTs and 7 career starts.

Yep. It's all about expected potential. Ball sport athletes aren't evaluated like everyday jobs. You and I get merit raises based on our past performance (annual evaluations are usually the tool they use). Athletes, like Winston, it's all about expectations of future performance. Sure...they will look at the past, but it's usually to make sure the athlete isn't trending in a negative direction. I don't care what stats you look at, Winston is not trending negatively. He's going to get paid a hefty chunk of change. And rightly so.



So true. It's also why older vets often struggle to get paid. People won't pay them based on what they've already done, but what they think the player will do in the future.
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Re: Jameis Winston Contract

Postby Eastwood » Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:24 am

NYBF wrote:OK, we can all go home now. Nani nailed it.
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Re: Jameis Winston Contract

Postby MJW » Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:53 am

Bootz2004 wrote:Name me a top QB that hit their absolute peak at 25. I’ll wait.


Can you please explain the criteria on which you're characterizing Jameis as a "top QB" right now?

Lots of ultimately disappointing QBs hit their peaks at 25.

We don't know which one of those two things Jameis is right now, so your point is pointless.
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Re: Jameis Winston Contract

Postby MJW » Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:55 am

And yes, obviously you pay him. There is no other move here. The real question here is if you give him a 5 or 6 year deal that's ACTUALLY a 5 or 6 year deal, or you do what was done when Tannehill or Dalton got THEIR huge paydays, and give yourself a painless "out" after 2 or 3 years.

Frankly, I think it's probably the second one right now. It'll get written up as 5-130-70. In reality, it'll be 3-70, or something like that, with limited cap implications if we want to move on after 3 years.
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Re: Jameis Winston Contract

Postby MJW » Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:07 am

sanka wrote:
Cheb wrote:
In seven season Andy Dalton has made the Pro Bowl three times, took his team to the playoffs five times, and has a winning career record by a healthy margin. In fact, the only year where he didn't make the Pro Bowl or the playoffs was last season.

If Jameis Winston turns into Andy Dalton, Tampa would throw him a ***damn parade.

:lol: :lol: @ Andy Dalton.

First of all, Winston is way better than Dalton.

Yea he has made the playoffs then lays a giant egg in the playoffs. Zero playoffs win just like Winston and he has 4 years over Winston in experience. You don't want your Qb to emulate a failure like Dalton.


Curious in what way Jameis entering year four has been superior to Dalton at that point of his career. Swag?
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Re: Jameis Winston Contract

Postby Bootz2004 » Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:42 am

MJW wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:Name me a top QB that hit their absolute peak at 25. I’ll wait.


Can you please explain the criteria on which you're characterizing Jameis as a "top QB" right now?

Lots of ultimately disappointing QBs hit their peaks at 25.

We don't know which one of those two things Jameis is right now, so your point is pointless.


You obviously didn't even understand the point as well as others did. The point is we truly don't know which of those things will be in the next 5 years but looking at the way he's trending and given his talent and skills set he's certainly looking like a future top QB rather than a bust.
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Re: Jameis Winston Contract

Postby MJW » Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:48 am

Bootz2004 wrote:
MJW wrote:
Can you please explain the criteria on which you're characterizing Jameis as a "top QB" right now?

Lots of ultimately disappointing QBs hit their peaks at 25.

We don't know which one of those two things Jameis is right now, so your point is pointless.


You obviously didn't even understand the point as well as others did. The point is we truly don't know which of those things will be in the next 5 years but looking at the way he's trending and given his talent and skills set he's certainly looking like a future top QB rather than a bust.


He's not "certainly" looking like anything at this point. Much casual.
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Re: Jameis Winston Contract

Postby Bootz2004 » Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:56 am

MJW wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
You obviously didn't even understand the point as well as others did. The point is we truly don't know which of those things will be in the next 5 years but looking at the way he's trending and given his talent and skills set he's certainly looking like a future top QB rather than a bust.


He's not "certainly" looking like anything at this point. Much casual.


Given that you're someone who doesn't know what their seeing on a football field this POV isn't surprising. Ergo trying to further explain the point would prove to be a waste of time.

We move on.
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Re: Jameis Winston Contract

Postby Doctor » Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:37 am

All of you talking about mental mistakes this and bonehead plays that. Winning cures everything. Period.
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Re: Jameis Winston Contract

Postby beardmcdoug » Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:02 pm

Doctor wrote:All of you talking about mental mistakes this and bonehead plays that. Winning cures everything. Period.


+1
and you know what helps in winning? actually fielding a defense


this morning I was reading an article by the dudes over at Poop Report (https://www.pewterreport.com/srs-fab-5-remembering-the-bucs-quirky-98-season-dilfers-downfall/), talking about the '98 season. And if you really go back and remember what it was like during those times... all the 16-3, 10-6, 9-7 games (I'm talking about scores) - with freaking sloppy ass Trent Dilfer as our QB - we at least stood a CHANCE, no matter who the opponent, because of our bad motherfuckin defense... things were still GOOD even when they were bad. We could hang around no matter what.

These days, with how **** our defense has been over the majority of the past 5 years, we've got to walk the tight rope over the pool of alligators while doing DDR in a headstand in order to just HANG AROUND. Here's to hoping that the adds of JPP, Vea, Curry, C. Davis, Stewart adds up to widening that margin of error to a freaking workable level
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Re: Jameis Winston Contract

Postby Buc2 » Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:05 pm

Amen to that.
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Re: Jameis Winston Contract

Postby acmillis » Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:18 pm

beardmcdoug wrote:
Doctor wrote:All of you talking about mental mistakes this and bonehead plays that. Winning cures everything. Period.


+1
and you know what helps in winning? actually fielding a defense


this morning I was reading an article by the dudes over at Poop Report (https://www.pewterreport.com/srs-fab-5-remembering-the-bucs-quirky-98-season-dilfers-downfall/), talking about the '98 season. And if you really go back and remember what it was like during those times... all the 16-3, 10-6, 9-7 games (I'm talking about scores) - with freaking sloppy ass Trent Dilfer as our QB - we at least stood a CHANCE, no matter who the opponent, because of our bad motherfuckin defense... things were still GOOD even when they were bad. We could hang around no matter what.

These days, with how **** our defense has been over the majority of the past 5 years, we've got to walk the tight rope over the pool of alligators while doing DDR in a headstand in order to just HANG AROUND. Here's to hoping that the adds of JPP, Vea, Curry, C. Davis, Stewart adds up to widening that margin of error to a freaking workable level

But that was one of the best defenses in the history of the game with one of the worst starting QBs in franchise history. That will never...ever happen again.

I think most here think way more of Jameis than they do of Dilfer which is why the W/L record is a big sticking point.
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Re: Jameis Winston Contract

Postby PrimeMinister » Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:23 pm

acmillis wrote:
beardmcdoug wrote:
+1
and you know what helps in winning? actually fielding a defense


this morning I was reading an article by the dudes over at Poop Report (https://www.pewterreport.com/srs-fab-5-remembering-the-bucs-quirky-98-season-dilfers-downfall/), talking about the '98 season. And if you really go back and remember what it was like during those times... all the 16-3, 10-6, 9-7 games (I'm talking about scores) - with freaking sloppy ass Trent Dilfer as our QB - we at least stood a CHANCE, no matter who the opponent, because of our bad motherfuckin defense... things were still GOOD even when they were bad. We could hang around no matter what.

These days, with how **** our defense has been over the majority of the past 5 years, we've got to walk the tight rope over the pool of alligators while doing DDR in a headstand in order to just HANG AROUND. Here's to hoping that the adds of JPP, Vea, Curry, C. Davis, Stewart adds up to widening that margin of error to a freaking workable level

But that was one of the best defenses in the history of the game with one of the worst starting QBs in franchise history. That will never...ever happen again.

I think most here think way more of Jameis than they do of Dilfer which is why the W/L record is a big sticking point.


This defense has been abysmal. That’s the difference between wins and losses now. Jameis will be a great QB, but how many games can we expect him to win when the defense is giving up 23.9 PPG along with 377 YPG?
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Re: Jameis Winston Contract

Postby Nano » Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:02 pm

I wish I could share your optimism that Winston will be a great QB
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