Players must stand for anthem

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Re: Players must stand for anthem

Postby uscbucsfan » Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:04 pm

Buc2 wrote:There's a reason for the unconscious bias (and it's displayed by all LEOs, not just white LEOs). Maybe that should also be addressed?

We've talked about this in the police brutality thread. It's a vicious cycle. Both sides are at fault and both perpetuate it further. Without providing and argument/pointing at the reasons minorities act differently at a higher rate, specifically with resisting/not following commands, which do you think is the most likely change agent...a group of people employed/trained by the government or an exponentially larger group of civilians?

but as I said there, this isn't something that will go away anytime soon and it will be a long process on both sides (all sides really with the media, white population, Politicians, etc) to even lessen to a substantial degree, much less fix.
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Re: Players must stand for anthem

Postby Zarniwoop » Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:11 pm

I have an unconscious bias in my pants when I see hot chicks
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Re: Players must stand for anthem

Postby Stuart » Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:17 pm

Buc2 wrote:There's a reason for the unconscious bias (and it's displayed by all LEOs, not just white LEOs). Maybe that should also be addressed?



I know from 1st hand experience.....If I am in garage clothes and driving a project car/beater...their a-holes. If I am driving my caddy and dressed nicely they are much nicer. there's more to it than just skin color but i digress
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Re: Players must stand for anthem

Postby DreadNaught » Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:34 pm

Ken Carson wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
1/200?

Given the number of incidents and the more 1 millions LEO's I think the number could be smaller. I'd be interested why you believe the number should be bigger? I'm not sure how we're connecting a relatively very small number of incidents (compared to the # of LEOs and their daily interactions) to saying over 6000 LEOs act in some type of racial bias in the course of their duty.

Perhaps we should start by defining 'treat differently'.

Treat differently... I would define it as approach an interaction differently due, at lest in part, to the appearance of the person. I think it is vastly higher than 1/200, since the general population would index significantly higher than that.

This involves a lot of unconscious bias, not just overt racism.


Fair enough. By that definition I agree it's probably much higher. But I don't really care to speculate on the semantics in attempting to quantify the unconscious bias of over a million people that make up the LE community.

I just saw where RL has commented and used the phrase "problem w/ .5% of LE) By your definition of 'treat differently' I don't see an issue/problem at all as long as it's not unfair or unjust based on immutable traits. Imo we all have unconscious bias to some degree where we approach interactions differently based on race, age, gender, etc of the person/people we're interacting with.

Now if we're talking cops decide to let a white guy get away with a warning while arresting an charging a POC for the same offence with all other variables being equal (warrants, arrest record, respectfully following commands during the interaction, etc) that I believe the # RL stated was fair. But who knows.
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Re: Players must stand for anthem

Postby Ken Carson » Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:36 pm

Buc2 wrote:There's a reason for the unconscious bias (and it's displayed by all LEOs, not just white LEOs). Maybe that should also be addressed?

What is the reason?

In anticipation of your answer, consider this. KKK membership is disproportionately white. That being the case, no white person should ever feel upset that they are perceived as racist.

Does that logic make sense to you?
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Re: Players must stand for anthem

Postby DreadNaught » Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:40 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:
Buc2 wrote:There's a reason for the unconscious bias (and it's displayed by all LEOs, not just white LEOs). Maybe that should also be addressed?

We've talked about this in the police brutality thread. It's a vicious cycle. Both sides are at fault and both perpetuate it further. Without providing and argument/pointing at the reasons minorities act differently at a higher rate, specifically with resisting/not following commands, which do you think is the most likely change agent...a group of people employed/trained by the government or an exponentially larger group of civilians?

but as I said there, this isn't something that will go away anytime soon and it will be a long process on both sides (all sides really with the media, white population, Politicians, etc) to even lessen to a substantial degree, much less fix.


Imo the best remedy is good local policing in the community and community outreach between LE and local leaders (this included sports teams).

Certainly not a fix, but if the youth is educated on the role LE is supposed to play and the benefits of peaceful (well policed) neighborhoods are, along with what their rights are and the proper way to act (expectations) should they ever have to interact with LE in the future would goes along way in mitigating the escalations that lead to the innocent loss of life.

It's a two way street imo and communication is key.
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Re: Players must stand for anthem

Postby DreadNaught » Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:43 pm

Ken Carson wrote: KKK membership is disproportionately white. That being the case, no white person should ever feel upset that they are perceived as racist.


Do Jihadists to Muslims next...

Then MS-13 to Hispanics...

etc..
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Re: Players must stand for anthem

Postby Ken Carson » Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:43 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
Ken Carson wrote:Treat differently... I would define it as approach an interaction differently due, at lest in part, to the appearance of the person. I think it is vastly higher than 1/200, since the general population would index significantly higher than that.

This involves a lot of unconscious bias, not just overt racism.


Fair enough. By that definition I agree it's probably much higher. But I don't really care to speculate on the semantics in attempting to quantify the unconscious bias of over a million people that make up the LE community.

I just saw where RL has commented and used the phrase "problem w/ .5% of LE) By your definition of 'treat differently' I don't see an issue/problem at all as long as it's not unfair or unjust based on immutable traits. Imo we all have unconscious bias to some degree where we approach interactions differently based on race, age, gender, etc of the person/people we're interacting with.

Now if we're talking cops decide to let a white guy get away with a warning while arresting an charging a POC for the same offence with all other variables being equal (warrants, arrest record, respectfully following commands during the interaction, etc) that I believe the # RL stated was fair. But who knows.

Bro, just look at sentencing for the same level of offense, same number of offenses. Black men get 20% longer sentences, all other factors being equal. Law enforcement isn’t just about policing. It includes prosecution and sentencing, and there can be no denying that black men especially get treated worse.
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Re: Players must stand for anthem

Postby Deuce » Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:47 pm

You know what would be great?

But seriously...when did our board turn into this?
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Re: Players must stand for anthem

Postby Ken Carson » Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:50 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
Ken Carson wrote: KKK membership is disproportionately white. That being the case, no white person should ever feel upset that they are perceived as racist.


Do Jihadists to Muslims next...

Then MS-13 to Hispanics...

etc..

Apparently you missed the part of my post that you neglected to quote. I’ll break it down. “Does that logic make sense to you?” is a rhetorical strategy that attempts to show how one’s point does NOT hold up to logic when presented back in a different, yet like, example.

My point was to show that Buc2 justifying unconscious bias is stupid. I’m scratching my head to what you are trying to get at. Maybe you agree with me an just for realize it?
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Re: Players must stand for anthem

Postby Super K » Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:51 pm

Yeah, I think it's time to move it...

And I take ownership of my bad decision making for contributing in it..

Send it to the 9th Circle of Hell (aka Politics and Religion)...
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Re: Players must stand for anthem

Postby DreadNaught » Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:51 pm

Ken Carson wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
Fair enough. By that definition I agree it's probably much higher. But I don't really care to speculate on the semantics in attempting to quantify the unconscious bias of over a million people that make up the LE community.

I just saw where RL has commented and used the phrase "problem w/ .5% of LE) By your definition of 'treat differently' I don't see an issue/problem at all as long as it's not unfair or unjust based on immutable traits. Imo we all have unconscious bias to some degree where we approach interactions differently based on race, age, gender, etc of the person/people we're interacting with.

Now if we're talking cops decide to let a white guy get away with a warning while arresting an charging a POC for the same offence with all other variables being equal (warrants, arrest record, respectfully following commands during the interaction, etc) that I believe the # RL stated was fair. But who knows.

Bro, just look at sentencing for the same level of offense, same number of offenses. Black men get 20% longer sentences, all other factors being equal. Law enforcement isn’t just about policing. It includes prosecution and sentencing, and there can be no denying that black men especially get treated worse.


Do you believe there is an economic variable to this that you're either not considering or underselling in this statement? Plenty of POC that can afford good legal defense resulting in favorable outcomes compared to poor white people charged with identical offenses (with the same criminal history).

I do believe blacks are treated very unfairly in terms of sentencing when it come to drugs, and specifically crack. That is something I'd like to see changed. More affluent people that use cocaine are sentenced MUCH lighter than poor people caught with crack. It disproportionately affects blacks, and that needs to change.
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Re: Players must stand for anthem

Postby DreadNaught » Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:52 pm

My bad, forget this was in TD.

I tattled on myself and request admin move the thread to OT.
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Re: Players must stand for anthem

Postby Buc2 » Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:54 pm

Ken Carson wrote:
Buc2 wrote:There's a reason for the unconscious bias (and it's displayed by all LEOs, not just white LEOs). Maybe that should also be addressed?

What is the reason?

In anticipation of your answer, consider this. KKK membership is disproportionately white. That being the case, no white person should ever feel upset that they are perceived as racist.

Does that logic make sense to you?

If you honestly don't know the reason, then I suggest you ask any LEO you know personally. I'm not going any further with this discussion because it will lead to nothing good.
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Re: Players must stand for anthem

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:16 pm

After months of circling President Donald Trump during NFL depositions and discovery, Colin Kaepernick’s lawyers are expected to force Trump directly into the ongoing legal battle between the quarterback and league.

Kaepernick’s legal team is expected to seek federal subpoenas in the coming weeks to compel testimony from Trump, Vice President Mike Pence and other officials familiar with the president’s agenda on protesting NFL players, sources with knowledge of the quarterback’s collusion case against the NFL told Yahoo Sports.

The aim will be a dive into the administration’s political involvement with the NFL during Kaepernick’s free agency and the league’s handling of player protests, sources said. This after recent disclosures that multiple owners had direct talks with Trump about players kneeling during the national anthem. The content of those conversations between Trump and owners – as well as any forms of pressure directed at the league by the administration – are expected to shape the requests to force the testimony of Trump, Pence and other affiliated officials, sources said.


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It'll end up a deposition....at most.
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Re: Players must stand for anthem

Postby Ken Carson » Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:27 pm

Buc2 wrote:
Ken Carson wrote:What is the reason?

In anticipation of your answer, consider this. KKK membership is disproportionately white. That being the case, no white person should ever feel upset that they are perceived as racist.

Does that logic make sense to you?

If you honestly don't know the reason, then I suggest you ask any LEO you know personally. I'm not going any further with this discussion because it will lead to nothing good.

My response makes clear what I think you believe the reason to be. I used the word “disproportionately” very specifically.
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Re: Players must stand for anthem

Postby PrimeMinister » Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:20 pm

MJW wrote:
BucaRican wrote:
How ????


One, the President invites you, you go. Do you think every athlete ever agreed with or liked the guy in office? Obviously not. I'm willing to bet there were plenty who thought Bush was a war criminal, or Christians who thought Clinton was a piece of filth, or War Hawks who loathed Jimmy Carter. They all went.

Two, to make a public statement that amounts to, "Jeez, if we had still been invited, we'd have spent the time doing community service in DC, but now we're not invited so we're not going to bother" is pathetic.

And before you ask, I've been Never Trump since before they put is brain in Bill The Cat. But let's not pretend the Eagles handled all this perfectly.


I’m truly not seeing where the Eagles mishandled the situation. The organization cannot force players to attend and no citizen should be forced to visit the President simply because “sports tradition”.

I read and hear often how players could have used this opportunity to speak to the President about their concerns. Craig Hodges handed a letter to President H.W. Bush detailing societal concerns he had...and was blackballed out of the NBA for that. How do you think President Trump would publicly handle NFL players expressing concerns about police brutality and systemic racism? Appealing to these two issues would not play will with his base. Actually demonizing the NFL players as anti-American is a boost for Trump. Every time he can say NFL players are disrespecting America or the flag it’s positive bump for his side. A person can only have open conversation if they believe the other party is engaging in good faith. If you were coming to Trump to discuss a disagreement would you believe Trump is engaging in good faith? Or would you believe that this President is going to blast you on Twitter 5 minutes after you walk out of the door?

You make a great point about athletes surely disagreeing with past Presidents. Unfortunately the Office of the President doesn’t hold the esteem that it once held. A person disagreeing with George W Bush would still be handled respectfully by the most powerful man in the country. A person demeaning President Obama or President Bush would still be handled with respect. Not with the sitting President. The Office just isn’t as prestigious in public sight as it once was. Both Trump and the media are largely to blame for this.
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Re: Players must stand for anthem

Postby Caradoc » Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:21 pm

PrimeMinister wrote: A person can only have open conversation if they believe the other party is engaging in good faith.


The irony of that statement, coming from a liberal. And that particular liberal on top of it.

Self-awareness is dead.
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Re: Players must stand for anthem

Postby Bootz2004 » Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:32 pm

Caradoc wrote:
PrimeMinister wrote: A person can only have open conversation if they believe the other party is engaging in good faith.


The irony of that statement, coming from a liberal. And that particular liberal on top of it.

Self-awareness is dead.


Do all right-winged people deflect the point of a discussion in favor of a small piece or are you just not smart enough to understand it? I'm not criticizing our trying to disrespect you. I'm seriously asking which is it. All of what PM had to say and instead of addressing it you focused on a piece you found ironic.
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Re: Players must stand for anthem

Postby PrimeMinister » Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:52 pm

Caradoc wrote:
PrimeMinister wrote: A person can only have open conversation if they believe the other party is engaging in good faith.


The irony of that statement, coming from a liberal. And that particular liberal on top of it.

Self-awareness is dead.


Assuming you’re referring to me I’m not a liberal.
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Re: Players must stand for anthem

Postby MJW » Fri Jun 08, 2018 1:49 am

PrimeMinister wrote:
MJW wrote:
One, the President invites you, you go. Do you think every athlete ever agreed with or liked the guy in office? Obviously not. I'm willing to bet there were plenty who thought Bush was a war criminal, or Christians who thought Clinton was a piece of filth, or War Hawks who loathed Jimmy Carter. They all went.

Two, to make a public statement that amounts to, "Jeez, if we had still been invited, we'd have spent the time doing community service in DC, but now we're not invited so we're not going to bother" is pathetic.

And before you ask, I've been Never Trump since before they put is brain in Bill The Cat. But let's not pretend the Eagles handled all this perfectly.


I’m truly not seeing where the Eagles mishandled the situation. The organization cannot force players to attend and no citizen should be forced to visit the President simply because “sports tradition”.

I read and hear often how players could have used this opportunity to speak to the President about their concerns. Craig Hodges handed a letter to President H.W. Bush detailing societal concerns he had...and was blackballed out of the NBA for that. How do you think President Trump would publicly handle NFL players expressing concerns about police brutality and systemic racism? Appealing to these two issues would not play will with his base. Actually demonizing the NFL players as anti-American is a boost for Trump. Every time he can say NFL players are disrespecting America or the flag it’s positive bump for his side. A person can only have open conversation if they believe the other party is engaging in good faith. If you were coming to Trump to discuss a disagreement would you believe Trump is engaging in good faith? Or would you believe that this President is going to blast you on Twitter 5 minutes after you walk out of the door?

You make a great point about athletes surely disagreeing with past Presidents. Unfortunately the Office of the President doesn’t hold the esteem that it once held. A person disagreeing with George W Bush would still be handled respectfully by the most powerful man in the country. A person demeaning President Obama or President Bush would still be handled with respect. Not with the sitting President. The Office just isn’t as prestigious in public sight as it once was. Both Trump and the media are largely to blame for this.


I agree, absolutely nobody should be forced.
I also agree Trump has degraded the office, and has no class himself.
I further agree that trying to bring issues to Trump's attention would be like slapping a rabid dog in the face with your penis.
I additionally agree that Trump has been using the issue for cheap applause, the same way he uses nearly every issue.

Where we disagree is your argument that any of this means turning down the invitation to meet the President at the White House is something that should be applauded. The Office is bigger than the occupier of it. We used to understand that. Refusing to understand it now lowers civil society to Trump's level. It should not be applauded.

Oh, and again, refusing to do community work in DC because of the disinvite was trash. Trump didn't ban them from the city.

And Hodges likely got blackballed for romantic relationship with Jew-hating Farrakhan. But that's another discussion.
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Re: Players must stand for anthem

Postby PrimeMinister » Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:22 am

MJW wrote:
PrimeMinister wrote:
I’m truly not seeing where the Eagles mishandled the situation. The organization cannot force players to attend and no citizen should be forced to visit the President simply because “sports tradition”.

I read and hear often how players could have used this opportunity to speak to the President about their concerns. Craig Hodges handed a letter to President H.W. Bush detailing societal concerns he had...and was blackballed out of the NBA for that. How do you think President Trump would publicly handle NFL players expressing concerns about police brutality and systemic racism? Appealing to these two issues would not play will with his base. Actually demonizing the NFL players as anti-American is a boost for Trump. Every time he can say NFL players are disrespecting America or the flag it’s positive bump for his side. A person can only have open conversation if they believe the other party is engaging in good faith. If you were coming to Trump to discuss a disagreement would you believe Trump is engaging in good faith? Or would you believe that this President is going to blast you on Twitter 5 minutes after you walk out of the door?

You make a great point about athletes surely disagreeing with past Presidents. Unfortunately the Office of the President doesn’t hold the esteem that it once held. A person disagreeing with George W Bush would still be handled respectfully by the most powerful man in the country. A person demeaning President Obama or President Bush would still be handled with respect. Not with the sitting President. The Office just isn’t as prestigious in public sight as it once was. Both Trump and the media are largely to blame for this.


I agree, absolutely nobody should be forced.
I also agree Trump has degraded the office, and has no class himself.
I further agree that trying to bring issues to Trump's attention would be like slapping a rabid dog in the face with your penis.
I additionally agree that Trump has been using the issue for cheap applause, the same way he uses nearly every issue.

Where we disagree is your argument that any of this means turning down the invitation to meet the President at the White House is something that should be applauded. The Office is bigger than the occupier of it. We used to understand that. Refusing to understand it now lowers civil society to Trump's level. It should not be applauded.

Oh, and again, refusing to do community work in DC because of the disinvite was trash. Trump didn't ban them from the city.

And Hodges likely got blackballed for romantic relationship with Jew-hating Farrakhan. But that's another discussion.


Where did I say the Eagles players should be applauded for declining the invite? My position is that it’s 100% okay for players to decline the invite. Past Presidents wouldn’t make a big deal of it, but this President can’t help responding out of offense.
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Re: Players must stand for anthem

Postby The Outsider » Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:51 am

Bootz2004 wrote:
Caradoc wrote:
The irony of that statement, coming from a liberal. And that particular liberal on top of it.

Self-awareness is dead.


Do all right-winged people deflect the point of a discussion in favor of a small piece or are you just not smart enough to understand it? I'm not criticizing our trying to disrespect you. I'm seriously asking which is it. All of what PM had to say and instead of addressing it you focused on a piece you found ironic.



Caradoc is a pro at that.

Edit: And for the record, Caradoc, I am criticizing you with the intent of extreme disrespect.
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Re: Players must stand for anthem

Postby DreadNaught » Fri Jun 08, 2018 6:11 am

The Outsider wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
Do all right-winged people deflect the point of a discussion in favor of a small piece or are you just not smart enough to understand it? I'm not criticizing our trying to disrespect you. I'm seriously asking which is it. All of what PM had to say and instead of addressing it you focused on a piece you found ironic.



Caradoc is a pro at that.

Edit: And for the record, Caradoc, I am criticizing you with the intent of extreme disrespect.


Selectively quoting a post and responding to it is, and has been a very common practice here at Buczone. If anything thinks it's synonymous with either 'right' or 'left' wing folks they aren't paying attention.

For the guy with by far the most posts and has selectively quoted posts numerous times to ask just that question is pretty laughable.

I guess Bootz is a right-winger by his own definition as well as most of the board.
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Re: Players must stand for anthem

Postby Bootz2004 » Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:14 am

DreadNaught wrote:
The Outsider wrote:

Caradoc is a pro at that.

Edit: And for the record, Caradoc, I am criticizing you with the intent of extreme disrespect.


Selectively quoting a post and responding to it is, and has been a very common practice here at Buczone. If anything thinks it's synonymous with either 'right' or 'left' wing folks they aren't paying attention.

For the guy with by far the most posts and has selectively quoted posts numerous times to ask just that question is pretty laughable.

I guess Bootz is a right-winger by his own definition as well as most of the board.


You could've kept this strawman all to yourself.
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Re: Players must stand for anthem

Postby DreadNaught » Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:41 am

Bootz2004 wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
Selectively quoting a post and responding to it is, and has been a very common practice here at Buczone. If anything thinks it's synonymous with either 'right' or 'left' wing folks they aren't paying attention.

For the guy with by far the most posts and has selectively quoted posts numerous times to ask just that question is pretty laughable.

I guess Bootz is a right-winger by his own definition as well as most of the board.


You could've kept this strawman all to yourself.


It's stating facts in direct response to your question "Do all right-winged people deflect the point of a discussion in favor of a small piece".

What do you think a strawman is and how is does my post fit that description? Are you saying you have never partially quoted another users post and just responded to that section?

Are you saying that b/c I didn't respond to PM's post (which I never quoted) that my response to you was a strawman?
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Re: Players must stand for anthem

Postby Bootz2004 » Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:47 am

DreadNaught wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
You could've kept this strawman all to yourself.


It's stating facts in direct response to your question "Do all right-winged people deflect the point of a discussion in favor of a small piece".

What do you think a strawman is and how is does my post fit that description? Are you saying you have never partially quoted another users post and just responded to that section?

Are you saying that b/c I didn't respond to PM's post (which I never quoted) that my response to you was a strawman?


You're not stating facts at all. And to answer your last question, yes. Should've kept it to yourself as I said.
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Re: Players must stand for anthem

Postby Deuce » Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:04 am

If the president invites you to the WH, you should go. It's an honor.

That being said, Trump inserted himself into the "players must stand" thing unnecessarily. I don't have anything against any NFL players who now refuse to go.
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Re: Players must stand for anthem

Postby DreadNaught » Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:43 am

PrimeMinister wrote:I’m truly not seeing where the Eagles mishandled the situation. The organization cannot force players to attend and no citizen should be forced to visit the President simply because “sports tradition”.

The Eagles initially accepted the invite and sent a list of over 80 people that would be attending the event so they could be cleared by the SS, which is standard for all WH visitors. Then at the last minute (last Friday, just few days before the event) the Eagles informed the WH a much smaller contingent would be present and the WH and that it would only be 1-3 players (reports vary, but is was less than handful), while also attempting to reschedule the visit to a day the President would be out of the country. Some Eagles players were going to come to DC that day, but instead of the WH they were going to visit local schools and/or other types of community outreach. Imo this is poor form by the Eagles and where imo they mishandled the situation by trying to show up the President. If they didn't want to go that is there choice. But don't commit and then back out at the last minute. That said, Trump's reaction by not accepting whatever Eagles staffers decided to still attend was also bad/mishandled and him politicizing it and mis-characterizing the Eagles players was even worse. I just think maturity was severely lacking here, moreson on the side of Trump.

PrimeMinister wrote:I read and hear often how players could have used this opportunity to speak to the President about their concerns. Craig Hodges handed a letter to President H.W. Bush detailing societal concerns he had...and was blackballed out of the NBA for that. How do you think President Trump would publicly handle NFL players expressing concerns about police brutality and systemic racism? Appealing to these two issues would not play will with his base. Actually demonizing the NFL players as anti-American is a boost for Trump. Every time he can say NFL players are disrespecting America or the flag it’s positive bump for his side. A person can only have open conversation if they believe the other party is engaging in good faith. If you were coming to Trump to discuss a disagreement would you believe Trump is engaging in good faith? Or would you believe that this President is going to blast you on Twitter 5 minutes after you walk out of the door?

I'm not sure about that. I think Trump has demonstrated to some degree that if you actually make an effort to sit down with him that you can appeal to his ego and get results. We saw it w/ Kim K getting Alice Johnson's sentence commuted, along w/ Van Jones and some others sitting down with him on Prison reform. I get people hate Trump, but putting aside differences to work on a common goal is how you get results/make progress. You may not always get every result you initially wanted, but it certainly seems to work better than the 'I hate Trump so I won't even speak to him' approach. Some progress is better than no progress imo.

PrimeMinister wrote:You make a great point about athletes surely disagreeing with past Presidents. Unfortunately the Office of the President doesn’t hold the esteem that it once held. A person disagreeing with George W Bush would still be handled respectfully by the most powerful man in the country. A person demeaning President Obama or President Bush would still be handled with respect. Not with the sitting President. The Office just isn’t as prestigious in public sight as it once was. Both Trump and the media are largely to blame for this.

I don't disagree here.
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Re: Players must stand for anthem

Postby deltbucs » Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:04 am

Deuce wrote:If the president invites you to the WH, you should go. It's an honor.


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