A new defensive identity

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A new defensive identity

Postby Ken Carson » Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:28 am

I posted this sentiment in a couple other threads, but I wanted to consolidate the discussion here.

If you look at our recent FA acquisitions, our draft and our current personnel, I think that we're ready to develop a defensive identity as an aggressive defense which forces quick throws into tight windows.

Look back at last season's tape, and you'll see us playing a lot of soft coverages, essentially conceding throws close to the line of scrimmage. We had to do this because our pass rush was horrific, and playing tight coverage would lead to a parade of deep throws over the heads of our marginal safeties. If we plan to do that with Carlton Davis and MJ Stewart, we're going to lead the league in PI, as both are better when they can manhandle their man within 5 yards, but can struggle covering deep down the field.

Fortunately, we have significantly addressed our defensive line, bringing in quality DE starters in JPP and Curry, and adding a true disruptive force to the nose in Vea. Gerald McCoy has to feel like he won the offseason lottery. Plus, we brought in depth in Beau Allen and Mitch Unrein to complement situational players William Gholston and Noah Spence. That's a deep and versatile group that should bring a consistent pass rush, something that was virtually nonexistent last season.

What does that mean? I think we're going to tighten up the coverage on the outside and try to take away the quick 'gimmies' that teams have beaten us so easily on the last few seasons. We will probably play a mixture of press man, cover 2 and cover 3. Licht was asked specifically about playing press man because he mentioned that Stewart and Davis do it well, then answered slyly that the Bucs will do whatever fits the skills of their guys. Certainly, that isn't Grimes strong suit, but he is probably in his last year in the league, so transitioning to a physical secondary could be a 2 year process.
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Re: A new defensive identity

Postby Bootz2004 » Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:41 am

My take away is I agree we wanted to up the intensity and did so. But also we want to make teams truly 1 dimensional. Stopping the run was a bigger problem for us in the past few years than stopping the pass. All of these additions play the run well and tackle well. Even the secondary guys we got.

As far as coverage, we will see. As I've stated as long as Mike Smith has been in this league as a coach he's never been a primarily press man guy. That's not to say he's never used it. Hell we use it from time to time here. Maybe we see a bit more press man, but at the end of the day we will be a zone team in coverage.

Key to the offseason was stop the run, get off the field on 3rd down.
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Re: A new defensive identity

Postby Buccs99 » Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:44 am

I think they realize that our defense has been **** for a while now and saw a defense in the Eagles that rotated heavy on the defensive line and an aggressive secondary. it had to be done. they are taking a blueprint from the champs and not copy them but make it better. talent wise, tampas line is better than the eagles, imo. we needed secondary depth and going out and possibly building for the future. if this fails, it's on coaching and the front office. i think this is the start of what our future is now.
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Re: A new defensive identity

Postby MarineBuc » Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:50 am

Bootz2004 wrote:My take away is I agree we wanted to up the intensity and did so. But also we want to make teams truly 1 dimensional. Stopping the run was a bigger problem for us in the past few years than stopping the pass. All of these additions play the run well and tackle well. Even the secondary guys we got.

As far as coverage, we will see. As I've stated as long as Mike Smith has been in this league as a coach he's never been a primarily press man guy. That's not to say he's never used it. Hell we use it from time to time here. Maybe we see a bit more press man, but at the end of the day we will be a zone team in coverage.

Key to the offseason was stop the run, get off the field on 3rd down.

It is apparent that the Bucs are going to stop the run and force teams to throw the ball...that's great because when you throw the ball 3 things can happen and 2 of them are bad!

I am very interested to see how much better the secondary can become with what appears to be the ability to put a helluva lot more pressure on opposing QBs.
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Re: A new defensive identity

Postby SIBucsFan » Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:59 am

Ken Carson wrote:What does that mean? I think we're going to tighten up the coverage on the outside and try to take away the quick 'gimmies' that teams have beaten us so easily on the last few seasons. We will probably play a mixture of press man, cover 2 and cover 3. Licht was asked specifically about playing press man because he mentioned that Stewart and Davis do it well, then answered slyly that the Bucs will do whatever fits the skills of their guys. Certainly, that isn't Grimes strong suit, but he is probably in his last year in the league, so transitioning to a physical secondary could be a 2 year process.


Playing tighter coverage and closer to the LOS bodes very well for Hargreaves and his style of play. That's a good thing since it's produce-or-be-gone time for him.
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Re: A new defensive identity

Postby SIBucsFan » Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:04 am

The good thing with Grimes is that we still need his style of play too.

It's good to have a guy on one side who can play press coverage, which is what we are hoping for in Davis, who may be asked to shadow #1's starting with Michael Thomas in week 1 and match is physicality every play. Grimes' style can negate many WR2's specialties in the league, which are generally more of the longer-developing routes not so much reliant on timing as much as it is just getting downfield and making a play on the ball. Grimes can still do that with the best of them.
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Re: A new defensive identity

Postby Ken Carson » Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:07 am

Bootz2004 wrote:My take away is I agree we wanted to up the intensity and did so. But also we want to make teams truly 1 dimensional. Stopping the run was a bigger problem for us in the past few years than stopping the pass. All of these additions play the run well and tackle well. Even the secondary guys we got.

As far as coverage, we will see. As I've stated as long as Mike Smith has been in this league as a coach he's never been a primarily press man guy. That's not to say he's never used it. Hell we use it from time to time here. Maybe we see a bit more press man, but at the end of the day we will be a zone team in coverage.

Key to the offseason was stop the run, get off the field on 3rd down.


I certainly don't think we'll be exclusively press man, but I think we want to be able to keep our corners close to the line much more often. As you point out, it helps significantly with run defense, and with Vea and McCoy occupying blockers in the middle, inside runs should be snuffed out by our LBs, while runs to the edge can be bottled by our DBs who can set the boundary.

The ability to switch between press man and zone coverage should be a nice changeup for disguised coverages, especially when we can give pre-snap looks, then quickly change, and still pressure the QB to reduce processing time and force quick throws against misdiagnosed coverage.
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Re: A new defensive identity

Postby Bootz2004 » Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:21 am

Ken Carson wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:My take away is I agree we wanted to up the intensity and did so. But also we want to make teams truly 1 dimensional. Stopping the run was a bigger problem for us in the past few years than stopping the pass. All of these additions play the run well and tackle well. Even the secondary guys we got.

As far as coverage, we will see. As I've stated as long as Mike Smith has been in this league as a coach he's never been a primarily press man guy. That's not to say he's never used it. Hell we use it from time to time here. Maybe we see a bit more press man, but at the end of the day we will be a zone team in coverage.

Key to the offseason was stop the run, get off the field on 3rd down.


I certainly don't think we'll be exclusively press man, but I think we want to be able to keep our corners close to the line much more often. As you point out, it helps significantly with run defense, and with Vea and McCoy occupying blockers in the middle, inside runs should be snuffed out by our LBs, while runs to the edge can be bottled by our DBs who can set the boundary.

The ability to switch between press man and zone coverage should be a nice changeup for disguised coverages, especially when we can give pre-snap looks, then quickly change, and still pressure the QB to reduce processing time and force quick throws against misdiagnosed coverage.


The bolded part has been severely lacking since Smith got here. Our coverage is pretty bland and we don't disguise **** in the secondary. This does need to change and the added presence of press-man will help. If Smith doesn't make the adjustments here we all agree that he needs to be shown the door.
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Re: A new defensive identity

Postby Jason Bourne » Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:21 am

Interesting the difference with smith and Dungy ..
Dungy preached do what you do and do it well .
Smith likes deception ...

Also Smith has been trying to get bigger in the middle for awhile now , Baker was a failure but I think we got it right now
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Re: A new defensive identity

Postby DreadNaught » Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:43 am

Great post Ken and I agree.

Late in games in key situations the best defenses in the NFL play press man w/a rangy single high safety (like Justin Evans) that takes the middle of the field away. This defense forces the small window throws Ken talked about. Man defense also takes away (or atleast mitigates) the check down/screen game from opposing offenses since the RB is accounted for in man coverage.

But it all starts up front w/ the Dline and stopping the run as Bootz mentioned as well. A great run defense forces 2nd/3rd and long situations and more of those situations a defense can create the more sacks, INTs, etc will happen for the defense.

We haven't seen alot of press man from Mike Smith, but that could be a combination of personnel and coaching philosophy to this point. We haven't had the Dline (pass rush) or Secondary to really play that style with success since press man can lead to big plays if you can't rush the QB or cover WRs.

The players we've acquired this offseason on defense should allow Mike Smith to incorporate more of these concepts. Atleast I'm on board w/ Ken in hoping that will be the case.
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Re: A new defensive identity

Postby real bucs fan » Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:09 pm

If you recall those old Jags defenses featured 2 monsters in the middle in Stroud and Henderson and a great defensive backfield.
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Re: A new defensive identity

Postby Terp » Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:23 pm

In short - we have been soft. We are trying not to be soft anymore.
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Re: A new defensive identity

Postby Patrick McIrish » Tue May 08, 2018 12:02 pm

Jason Bourne wrote:
Also Smith has been trying to get bigger in the middle for awhile now.......



That might be the one goal Smith has accomplished with flying colors...

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Re: A new defensive identity

Postby Patrick McIrish » Tue May 08, 2018 12:05 pm

In short - we have the laziest, most predictable and most half-assed coached defense in football.....

All delivered by this fat **** from the comfort of the air conditioned press box a thousand feet above the field.

DK deserves to lose his job by not making a change.
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Re: A new defensive identity

Postby Ken Carson » Tue May 08, 2018 1:39 pm

Patrick McIrish wrote:
Jason Bourne wrote:
Also Smith has been trying to get bigger in the middle for awhile now.......



That might be the one goal Smith has accomplished with flying colors...

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LOL
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Re: A new defensive identity

Postby terrytate » Tue May 08, 2018 2:20 pm

Patrick McIrish wrote:
Jason Bourne wrote:
Also Smith has been trying to get bigger in the middle for awhile now.......



That might be the one goal Smith has accomplished with flying colors...

Image



Hell, I could have given him the secrets to that trick.
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Re: A new defensive identity

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue May 08, 2018 5:16 pm

Are we going to have a top 10 run defense or what?

What about the passing game? Are we going to at least be mediocre?
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Re: A new defensive identity

Postby real bucs fan » Tue May 08, 2018 5:23 pm

Our front seven is nasty. Heck our roster looks great too to bottom. Only real question marks are in the secondary... and the answers could well be there.
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Re: A new defensive identity

Postby terrytate » Tue May 08, 2018 9:21 pm

real bucs fan wrote:Our front seven is nasty. Heck our roster looks great too to bottom. Only real question marks are in the secondary... and the answers could well be there.



And Oline. Ryan Jensen will help solidify the middle but Sweezy is still inconsistent and rarely healthy, Smith is still Smith and Dotson has been getting dinged up a lot the last several years. If our season comes off the rails, it will be because of the Oline.
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Re: A new defensive identity

Postby real bucs fan » Tue May 08, 2018 10:07 pm

terrytate wrote:
real bucs fan wrote:Our front seven is nasty. Heck our roster looks great too to bottom. Only real question marks are in the secondary... and the answers could well be there.



And Oline. Ryan Jensen will help solidify the middle but Sweezy is still inconsistent and rarely healthy, Smith is still Smith and Dotson has been getting dinged up a lot the last several years. If our season comes off the rails, it will be because of the Oline.

Last year our oline got decimated by injuries and they still did fine- and we added Jensen. I'm not worried.
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Re: A new defensive identity

Postby Rocker » Tue May 08, 2018 10:10 pm

real bucs fan wrote:
terrytate wrote:

And Oline. Ryan Jensen will help solidify the middle but Sweezy is still inconsistent and rarely healthy, Smith is still Smith and Dotson has been getting dinged up a lot the last several years. If our season comes off the rails, it will be because of the Oline.

Last year our oline got decimated by injuries and they still did fine- and we added Jensen. I'm not worried.


Shirley, you can’t be serious.
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Re: A new defensive identity

Postby acmillis » Wed May 09, 2018 7:55 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:Are we going to have a top 10 run defense or what?

What about the passing game? Are we going to at least be mediocre?

This really reads like an mdb post.
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Re: A new defensive identity

Postby mdb1958 » Wed May 09, 2018 8:59 am

Patrick McIrish wrote:In short - we have the laziest, most predictable and most half-assed coached defense in football.....

All delivered by this fat **** from the comfort of the air conditioned press box a thousand feet above the field.

DK deserves to lose his job by not making a change.



Get over it Pat. Also, I want you turning off the air 4 hours before every Buc game!
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Re: A new defensive identity

Postby mdb1958 » Wed May 09, 2018 9:04 am

acmillis wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:Are we going to have a top 10 run defense or what?

What about the passing game? Are we going to at least be mediocre?

This really reads like an mdb post.


First thing you look for is a stunned audience that is unable to answer a simple question, I call it "brain no worky"...

Congrats.
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Re: A new defensive identity

Postby mdb1958 » Wed May 09, 2018 9:09 am

MB, three questions in a row? I've never had a post reader in "hear" fulfill that request.
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Re: A new defensive identity

Postby real bucs fan » Wed May 09, 2018 9:24 am

Rocker wrote:
real bucs fan wrote:Last year our oline got decimated by injuries and they still did fine- and we added Jensen. I'm not worried.


Shirley, you can’t be serious.

This idea that our oline was bad last year is a false narrative. Folks love to scapegoat the oline...
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Re: A new defensive identity

Postby DreadNaught » Wed May 09, 2018 9:51 am

Rocker wrote:
real bucs fan wrote:Last year our oline got decimated by injuries and they still did fine- and we added Jensen. I'm not worried.


Shirley, you can’t be serious.

He is serious, and don't call him Shirley. :D
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Re: A new defensive identity

Postby Heidguy » Wed May 09, 2018 10:05 am

DreadNaught wrote:
Rocker wrote:
Shirley, you can’t be serious.

He is serious, and don't call him Shirley. :D


I had a feeling last night when I saw the post that he wouldn't respond properly smh. Millennials I tell ya smh
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Re: A new defensive identity

Postby IchabodCrane84 » Wed May 09, 2018 12:15 pm

mdb1958 wrote:MB, three questions in a row? I've never had a post reader in "hear" fulfill that request.


I thought all your questions were rhetorical.
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Re: A new defensive identity

Postby Rocker » Wed May 09, 2018 12:27 pm

I’m still operating under the assumption that mdb1958 is an open source, crowdfunded, learning AI built by Southern Metropolitan Polytechnic Community College.
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