Welcome Justin Watson

[Bootz2004]

Why in the hell would we replace Vita on 3rd downs? You want disruption on 3rd down and that's exactly what he does. He can disrupt the pocket, make the QB uncomfortable. Putting Curry inside helps out the offense. He's not a great pass rusher and he's smaller in size. Guards/Centers would much rather see him inside than they would a 350 pound powerhouse that can move.

Spence-McCoy-Vea-Paul on 3rd down is much better than Spence-McCoy-Curry-Paul

I disagree, but we will see come Sundays...

Nothing about Curry suggests he'd make an effective DT on 3rd downs.

It also would be a waste given how much we've invested into the DT position. If our best option is moving a DE inside then we haven't done enough.

[Super K]

Instead of arguing about which package is "better", I think the bigger point is we can roll out said packages and just keep slamming the opposing offense in waves...

And that isn't even count breaking into a 3-4 look and rushing 1/some/all of our backers....

And with BB now directing the DL group...whooooooweeeee.....

We are gonna **** some people up this year...

[Mountaineer Buc]

Instead of arguing about which package is "better", I think the bigger point is we can roll out said packages and just keep slamming the opposing offense in waves...

And that isn't even count breaking into a 3-4 look and rushing 1/some/all of our backers....

And with BB now directing the DL group...whooooooweeeee.....

We are gonna **** some people up this year...

We'll see how that line does against the run. There is a lot of talented backs on the schedule.

Ingram
Kamara
Freeman
McCaffrey
Clement
Ajayi
Sproles
Pumphrey
Bell
Cohen
Chubb
Mixon
Walton
Guice
Barkley
McKinnon
Elliott
and whomever the Ravens trot out there.

[DreadNaught]

I disagree, but we will see come Sundays...

Nothing about Curry suggests he'd make an effective DT on 3rd downs.

It also would be a waste given how much we've invested into the DT position. If our best option is moving a DE inside then we haven't done enough.

Many teams move a DE inside in pass rushing situations b/c it's about getting your best 4 rushers on the field. The Eagles have one of the better DT duos in the NFL w/ Cox and Jernigan, yet they incorporate the same scheme on 3rd down and move Brandon Graham inside to DT (which is where Graham was lined up on the strip sack of Brady in the Super Bowl).

It seems that the Bucs will be looking to rotate the Dlinemen since on paper we seem to have the depth. So what % of snaps w/ Vea play, and of that % what downs would his talent/skillset be best utilized? Imo Vea's value/strength is against the run first and foremost, so I'd want him out there on as many predictable run downs as possible (1st and 10 and/or 2nd and 10 after a incomplete pass on 1st down, then of course any short yardage situations). Having Vea in on those situations will alone will be a heavy workload for 350lb DT. So plugging in a fresher Dlinemen that has pass rush ability makes sense to me.

We'll see how it all works out. It's certainly a nice problem to discuss and I'm not against Vea playing on those downs if he earns it b/c that means he'll be drawing double teams away from McCoy. Getting McCoy 1v1 vs a Guard in a passing situation is something we've been trying to do consistently for years with no success since no other Dlinemen as been a threat. Vea could change that, but if he's only got X amount snaps per game due to the desired rotation we also have to be smart on when it's best to deploy him and others.

[Bootz2004]

Nothing about Curry suggests he'd make an effective DT on 3rd downs.

It also would be a waste given how much we've invested into the DT position. If our best option is moving a DE inside then we haven't done enough.

Many teams move a DE inside in pass rushing situations b/c it's about getting your best 4 rushers on the field. The Eagles have one of the better DT duos in the NFL w/ Cox and Jernigan, yet they incorporate the same scheme on 3rd down and move Brandon Graham inside to DT (which is where Graham was lined up on the strip sack of Brady in the Super Bowl).

It seems that the Bucs will be looking to rotate the Dlinemen since on paper we seem to have the depth. So what % of snaps w/ Vea play, and of that % what downs would his talent/skillset be best utilized? Imo Vea's value/strength is against the run first and foremost, so I'd want him out there on as many predictable run downs as possible (1st and 10 and/or 2nd and 10 after a incomplete pass on 1st down, then of course any short yardage situations). Having Vea in on those situations will alone will be a heavy workload for 350lb DT. So plugging in a fresher Dlinemen that has pass rush ability makes sense to me.

We'll see how it all works out. It's certainly a nice problem to discuss and I'm not against Vea playing on those downs if he earns it b/c that means he'll be drawing double teams away from McCoy. Getting McCoy 1v1 vs a Guard in a passing situation is something we've been trying to do consistently for years with no success since no other Dlinemen as been a threat. Vea could change that, but if he's only got X amount snaps per game due to the desired rotation we also have to be smart on when it's best to deploy him and others.

Brandon Graham is 1 thing. Vinny Curry is another.

[DreadNaught]

Many teams move a DE inside in pass rushing situations b/c it's about getting your best 4 rushers on the field. The Eagles have one of the better DT duos in the NFL w/ Cox and Jernigan, yet they incorporate the same scheme on 3rd down and move Brandon Graham inside to DT (which is where Graham was lined up on the strip sack of Brady in the Super Bowl).

It seems that the Bucs will be looking to rotate the Dlinemen since on paper we seem to have the depth. So what % of snaps w/ Vea play, and of that % what downs would his talent/skillset be best utilized? Imo Vea's value/strength is against the run first and foremost, so I'd want him out there on as many predictable run downs as possible (1st and 10 and/or 2nd and 10 after a incomplete pass on 1st down, then of course any short yardage situations). Having Vea in on those situations will alone will be a heavy workload for 350lb DT. So plugging in a fresher Dlinemen that has pass rush ability makes sense to me.

We'll see how it all works out. It's certainly a nice problem to discuss and I'm not against Vea playing on those downs if he earns it b/c that means he'll be drawing double teams away from McCoy. Getting McCoy 1v1 vs a Guard in a passing situation is something we've been trying to do consistently for years with no success since no other Dlinemen as been a threat. Vea could change that, but if he's only got X amount snaps per game due to the desired rotation we also have to be smart on when it's best to deploy him and others.

Brandon Graham is 1 thing. Vinny Curry is another.

Perhaps, but Vea isn't Timmy Jernigan when it comes to rushing the passer either (atleast not yet).

I've never seen Curry rush from the DT position so I'm not arguing that point. But Koetter did mention that Curry would get that chance to rush as a DT in sub package situations and that was part of the sales pitch to him in free agency.

Granted that before we spent the 12th overall pick on a DT. So we'll see how it plays out.

[Bootz2004]

Brandon Graham is 1 thing. Vinny Curry is another.

Perhaps, but Vea isn't Timmy Jernigan when it comes to rushing the passer either (atleast not yet).

I've never seen Curry rush from the DT position so I'm not arguing that point. But Koetter did mention that Curry would get that chance to rush as a DT in sub package situations and that was part of the sales pitch to him in free agency.

Granted that before we spent the 12th overall pick on a DT. So we'll see how it plays out.

I don't think Vita is given the credit he's deserved as a rusher. Naturally people look at his size and label him exclusively as a 2 down, space eating run stuffer. He is that and a lot more. But I guarantee Licht and company didn't take this guy 12th overall just to use him on 1st and 2nd down.

[VauntedTampa2]

Vita will see his fair share of 3rd down looks.

[DreadNaught]

Perhaps, but Vea isn't Timmy Jernigan when it comes to rushing the passer either (atleast not yet).

I've never seen Curry rush from the DT position so I'm not arguing that point. But Koetter did mention that Curry would get that chance to rush as a DT in sub package situations and that was part of the sales pitch to him in free agency.

Granted that before we spent the 12th overall pick on a DT. So we'll see how it plays out.

I don't think Vita is given the credit he's deserved as a rusher. Naturally people look at his size and label him exclusively as a 2 down, space eating run stuffer. He is that and a lot more. But I guarantee Licht and company didn't take this guy 12th overall just to use him on 1st and 2nd down.

That's fair and I'm probably guilty of that to some degree. I think that is due to Vea being such a dominate physical force that shows up in the run game more than it does as a pass rusher.

I agree Licht didn't draft Vea just to play the run. But it is what Vea is best/most valuable at. So going back to my point about Dline rotation and having the best guys in the best situations I think having Vea on the field on those predictable run downs would be the best use of his skillset. If Vea can get some reps on 3rd and long that is good also.

[PrimeMinister]

The knocks on our draft grade for Vea all seem to be people pissed we didn’t draft James like they assumed. And then they say he is “just a 2down player”. But the reason he was projected so high was his athletecism, that he wasn’t just a 2 down guy.

While I agree he isn't a pure 2 down run stuffer, and he's more of a 2-way guy than most his size, the reality is you likely are replacing him on 3rd downs. I imagine we are planning on moving Curry inside beside McCoy and having Spence rush from the edge on 3rd and longs.

That's not to say Vea wasn't worth the pick.

You’re wrong here. One of the few knock on Vea was that he would save energy on 1st & 2nd down, but would be an absolute terror in obvious passing situations. Why would we pull a 347lb pocket collapser off the field on 3rd down? Vea did his best work on 3rd down in college.

[Jason Bourne]

Vita will see his fair share of 3rd down looks.

This ... all D lineman will rotate when they are tired and not according to down and distance imo

[real bucs fan]

You guys also need to keep in mind that Vea is 350lbs...

These guys don't just stay on the field. PFF talked about this in their breakdown of him.

[Cheb]

It's easy to see Vea's size and say that he's a two down player, but I think that's a disservice to his game. He's an excellent pass rusher, and would be even more so if he's kept fresh throughout a game.

Yes, Vea is very good against the run as well, but I think that Beau Allen should be the "starter" on early downs the vast majority of the time. Beau Allen can more than hold his own on early downs as a run stopping specialist.

Using Vea in short yardage defense and as a third down nosetackle would be a good use of his reps. I think he and Beau Allen should split the reps pretty much down the middle, subbing in liberally to keep each other fresh.

Were it up to me, my inital D-line personnel groups would be:

Base - Curry, Allen, McCoy, JPP
Thunder (run stoppers) - Curry, Vea/Allen, McCoy, JPP. Gholston as primary DE sub.
Lightning (pass rushers) - Spence, Vea, McCoy, JPP. Curry as primary DE sub.

Substitute liberally to keep everyone fresh. Maybe give JPP some early down breathers with Gholston as needed in base D, ditto with Unrein and McCoy.

[real bucs fan]

How about we use Allen on run downs, Curry on passing downs and draft Derwin James?

[Cheb]

How about we use Allen on run downs, Curry on passing downs and draft Derwin James?

The Bucs passed on him twice. Obviously they weren't too impressed by his play.

Derwin James apologists need to get over themselves.

[Super K]

Cheb, in your "Thunder scenerio" above, I wouldn't be surprised to see Vea/Unrein at DT for McCoy...

Gmac can be an absolute rushing the passer if we can get his snap count down a bit..

Likewise, imagine being the poor guard and having to deal with Vea 1 snap and then Gmac the next....

[Super K]

Instead of arguing about which package is "better", I think the bigger point is we can roll out said packages and just keep slamming the opposing offense in waves...

And that isn't even count breaking into a 3-4 look and rushing 1/some/all of our backers....

And with BB now directing the DL group...whooooooweeeee.....

We are gonna **** some people up this year...

We'll see how that line does against the run. There is a lot of talented backs on the schedule.

Ingram
Kamara
Freeman
McCaffrey
Clement
Ajayi
Sproles
Pumphrey
Bell
Cohen
Chubb
Mixon
Walton
Guice
Barkley
McKinnon
Elliott
and whomever the Ravens trot out there.

Bring it bitches...

Honestly, for the first time in a LONG time I feel like we have a group of badass motherfuckers upfront on D....

[Bootz2004]

Cheb, in your "Thunder scenerio" above, I wouldn't be surprised to see Vea/Unrein at DT for McCoy...

Gmac can be an absolute rushing the passer if we can get his snap count down a bit..

Likewise, imagine being the poor guard and having to deal with Vea 1 snap and then Gmac the next....

I think we will. I think a DT combo of Vita at 3T and Allen at Nose would be very effective.

[Bootz2004]

It's easy to see Vea's size and say that he's a two down player, but I think that's a disservice to his game. He's an excellent pass rusher, and would be even more so if he's kept fresh throughout a game.

Yes, Vea is very good against the run as well, but I think that Beau Allen should be the "starter" on early downs the vast majority of the time. Beau Allen can more than hold his own on early downs as a run stopping specialist.

Using Vea in short yardage defense and as a third down nosetackle would be a good use of his reps. I think he and Beau Allen should split the reps pretty much down the middle, subbing in liberally to keep each other fresh.

Were it up to me, my inital D-line personnel groups would be:

Base - Curry, Allen, McCoy, JPP
Thunder (run stoppers) - Curry, Vea/Allen, McCoy, JPP. Gholston as primary DE sub.
Lightning (pass rushers) - Spence, Vea, McCoy, JPP. Curry as primary DE sub.

Substitute liberally to keep everyone fresh. Maybe give JPP some early down breathers with Gholston as needed in base D, ditto with Unrein and McCoy.

I was going to say we could get Gholston in on some downs for JPP. With as deep as we are on the line there's no reason we can't keep our guys fresh. That is unless it's one of those games where we're on the field a ton defensively.

[Jason Bourne]

How about we use Allen on run downs, Curry on passing downs and draft Derwin James?

The guy is from the South Pacific ... you know where it’s warm and they lift boulders all day

[Caradoc]

How about we use Allen on run downs, Curry on passing downs and draft Derwin James?

The guy is from the South Pacific ... you know where it’s warm and they lift boulders all day

And here I thought they just sang show tunes in the South Pacific

[PrimeMinister]

How about we use Allen on run downs, Curry on passing downs and draft Derwin James?

I hope Derwin James falls to us in the draft.

[Bootz2004]

How about we use Allen on run downs, Curry on passing downs and draft Derwin James?

I hope Derwin James falls to us in the draft.

Petty PM strikes again!!

[Deja Entendu]

To summarize Super K's point...

Instead of arguing about which package is "better", I think the bigger... packages... just... look... whooooooweeeee.....

We are gonna **** some people...

[Super K]

Don't judge me Deja...

[Doctor]

Perhaps, but Vea isn't Timmy Jernigan when it comes to rushing the passer either (atleast not yet).

I've never seen Curry rush from the DT position so I'm not arguing that point. But Koetter did mention that Curry would get that chance to rush as a DT in sub package situations and that was part of the sales pitch to him in free agency.

Granted that before we spent the 12th overall pick on a DT. So we'll see how it plays out.

I don't think Vita is given the credit he's deserved as a rusher. Naturally people look at his size and label him exclusively as a 2 down, space eating run stuffer. He is that and a lot more. But I guarantee Licht and company didn't take this guy 12th overall just to use him on 1st and 2nd down.

If anything I see Vea as a 2 and 3rd down player. I don't have the stats in front of me but I think the NFL has taken to passing more often on 1st than running with a few teams like the Cowboys and Bills being the exception. 3rd down is the money down, whether 3rd and short or long. Defending the run or taking up blockers for the pass rush, it seems like taking Vea off the field on 3rd is the last thing we want to do.

[Bootz2004]

I don't think Vita is given the credit he's deserved as a rusher. Naturally people look at his size and label him exclusively as a 2 down, space eating run stuffer. He is that and a lot more. But I guarantee Licht and company didn't take this guy 12th overall just to use him on 1st and 2nd down.

If anything I see Vea as a 2 and 3rd down player. I don't have the stats in front of me but I think the NFL has taken to passing more often on 1st than running with a few teams like the Cowboys and Bills being the exception. 3rd down is the money down, whether 3rd and short or long. Defending the run or taking up blockers for the pass rush, it seems like taking Vea off the field on 3rd is the last thing we want to do.

Yea it just wouldn't make any sense to take a guy like him off when you know the team is passing.

[Doctor]

We were the worst 3rd down team in the league and a whole lot of those 1sts were gained on the ground.

[Crocaneers]

We need some good stories

Justin's story is one that should be told more often.


http://www.espn.com/blog/tampa-bay-bucc ... tin-watson

[Heidguy]

Great read, thanks for posting it. Really like this kid, great work ethic, athletic and put up the numbers in college. Obviously highly intelligent which can't hurt. I hope we can hold on to this kid, having gotten what looks to be a winner in Godwin already, we could really be see at WR for years.