POLL: Which highly regarded player do you want to avoid?

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Which player do you want to avoid?

Barkley
4
17%
Chubb
0
No votes
Nelson
0
No votes
Fitz
6
25%
James
11
46%
Ward
3
13%
 
Total votes : 24

POLL: Which highly regarded player do you want to avoid?

Postby Doctor » Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:49 pm

Which highly regarded player that we've been linked to would you most want to avoid? Obviously many don't like Barkley, some don't like a Fitz, perhaps you secretly hate the idea of drafting a OG so high. What say you?

For me, Derwin James. I've acknowledged he could potentially be the best player in this draft. His ceiling is one of the unlimited ones. But his floor is damn low too. He has a Quincy Black-ness to him that he's more athlete than football player. Of all the top guys that we've been link to I think I'd be most disappointed with him because the risk is just far to high and I'd much rather role with something much safer at 7. Obviously if we pick him I'll be hoping for all the best, but I would not have liked the risk taking of the selection. Save the Davenports and Edmunds for after the top 10.

How about you guys?
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Re: POLL: Which highly regarded player do you want to avoid?

Postby real bucs fan » Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:52 pm

Tough list to pick from, but if I had to pick a guy to pass on it would be Fitz. Not that I don't think he'll be good, I just don't think he's as special as the others- plus he'd be the most redundant of the 6.
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Re: POLL: Which highly regarded player do you want to avoid?

Postby MJW » Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:57 pm

real bucs fan wrote:Tough list to pick from, but if I had to pick a guy to pass on it would be Fitz. Not that I don't think he'll be good, I just don't think he's as special as the others- plus he'd be the most redundant of the 6.


As I tried and failed to explain to Doctor, Fitz will be best doing two of the few things we don't need - playing the slot and playing centerfield. We've literally used a 1st and a 2nd in the last two drafts on guys who do those things well.

Is he special? I mean...maybe? It's hard to say with Saban's guys. He's so good at coaching them up and putting them in positions to succeed, and they have SO MUCH talent around them that it's tough to be sure. I know he's making a great impression on coaches and GMs.
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Re: POLL: Which highly regarded player do you want to avoid?

Postby Doctor » Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:01 am

Because that's the dumbest argument. I don't care what's best for Fitz, I care what's best for us. It's like when people say "He'd probably be better in a 3-4 system or one that uses him like this". Okay, that may be true, so what? If he's 90% the best player he can be, but he's still a baller and he's doing it for the BUCS, that's what matters to me. I don't care if player A can be the best player he can be if it's playing on another team.

Also, like I've explained to you a dozen times, Mike Smith uses hybrid interchangeable safeties. Both need to be able to play single high or in the box, which both Evans and Fitz can very well. Also, VH3 could very well take his place on the boundary again, he's come a long way and we now have a pass rush. There's a lot of variables. Point is your argument is ****.
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Re: POLL: Which highly regarded player do you want to avoid?

Postby Cheb » Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:39 am

James is a loafer, has an injury history, consistently loafs, didn't force many turnovers in college, and perhaps most importantly he is a person to whom loafing is not a foreign concept.

I don't give a **** about his measurables or upside. He gives up on plays and is lazy in pursuit. He ****ing WALKS a disturbing amount of the time.

No thank you. Walk for some other team. Ain't no room for loafers on a good defense.
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Re: POLL: Which highly regarded player do you want to avoid?

Postby terrytate » Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:51 am

MJW wrote:
real bucs fan wrote:Tough list to pick from, but if I had to pick a guy to pass on it would be Fitz. Not that I don't think he'll be good, I just don't think he's as special as the others- plus he'd be the most redundant of the 6.


As I tried and failed to explain to Doctor, Fitz will be best doing two of the few things we don't need - playing the slot and playing centerfield. We've literally used a 1st and a 2nd in the last two drafts on guys who do those things well.

Is he special? I mean...maybe? It's hard to say with Saban's guys. He's so good at coaching them up and putting them in positions to succeed, and they have SO MUCH talent around them that it's tough to be sure. I know he's making a great impression on coaches and GMs.


That's my take as well, near word for word. I don't think Fitz is an outside corner, I think he's a free safety. I don't agree with Cheb about James, but out of the 3 DB's Fitz is in last place.

On my own board, it's Chubb, Nelson, Barkley, James, Ward then Fitz. If we are being serious, I'd give real thought to taking Hurst, Bryan or Guice over Fitz.
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Re: POLL: Which highly regarded player do you want to avoid?

Postby Cheb » Thu Apr 26, 2018 1:01 am

terrytate wrote:
MJW wrote:
As I tried and failed to explain to Doctor, Fitz will be best doing two of the few things we don't need - playing the slot and playing centerfield. We've literally used a 1st and a 2nd in the last two drafts on guys who do those things well.

Is he special? I mean...maybe? It's hard to say with Saban's guys. He's so good at coaching them up and putting them in positions to succeed, and they have SO MUCH talent around them that it's tough to be sure. I know he's making a great impression on coaches and GMs.


That's my take as well, near word for word. I don't think Fitz is an outside corner, I think he's a free safety. I don't agree with Cheb about James, but out of the 3 DB's Fitz is in last place.

On my own board, it's Chubb, Nelson, Barkley, James, Ward then Fitz. If we are being serious, I'd give real thought to taking Hurst, Bryan or Guice over Fitz.


I agree that Fitzgerald's best position is at safety given his otherwordly recovery speed, but he isn't forced into playing strictly free. He is physical enough to roll into the box and be the force man at atrong, as he did many times at Bama.

Mike Smith has said on multiple occasions that his safeties are interchangeable. Both must be able to play in the box or as a single-high. James cannot play single high well; he's a liability when he does. Fitz can do either.

Fitz can also stick to a wide receiver in man coverage, an assignment which if given to James would make me pause.

As far as their size, Fitz is the exact same size as two-time Superbowl champion strong safety Malcolm Jenkins.

Whatevs. We will see how it works out in time.
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Re: POLL: Which highly regarded player do you want to avoid?

Postby MJW » Thu Apr 26, 2018 1:33 am

Cheb wrote:
terrytate wrote:
That's my take as well, near word for word. I don't think Fitz is an outside corner, I think he's a free safety. I don't agree with Cheb about James, but out of the 3 DB's Fitz is in last place.

On my own board, it's Chubb, Nelson, Barkley, James, Ward then Fitz. If we are being serious, I'd give real thought to taking Hurst, Bryan or Guice over Fitz.


I agree that Fitzgerald's best position is at safety given his otherwordly recovery speed, but he isn't forced into playing strictly free. He is physical enough to roll into the box and be the force man at atrong, as he did many times at Bama.

Mike Smith has said on multiple occasions that his safeties are interchangeable. Both must be able to play in the box or as a single-high. James cannot play single high well; he's a liability when he does. Fitz can do either.

Fitz can also stick to a wide receiver in man coverage, an assignment which if given to James would make me pause.

As far as their size, Fitz is the exact same size as two-time Superbowl champion strong safety Malcolm Jenkins.

Whatevs. We will see how it works out in time.


I don't quite buy that from Smith. We paid TJ Ward $5 million dollars to play in the box. He wasn't any good in center or manning up when he was five years younger. I also don't buy that Fitz would be special in man against against wide receivers all game. If he was, he'd be a boundary corner.

I think if we draft him, we'll be asking someone we're building around to do something they're not particularly good at instead of something they are. I don't think that's how you construct a unit.
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Re: POLL: Which highly regarded player do you want to avoid?

Postby terrytate » Thu Apr 26, 2018 1:51 am

MJW wrote:
Cheb wrote:
I agree that Fitzgerald's best position is at safety given his otherwordly recovery speed, but he isn't forced into playing strictly free. He is physical enough to roll into the box and be the force man at atrong, as he did many times at Bama.

Mike Smith has said on multiple occasions that his safeties are interchangeable. Both must be able to play in the box or as a single-high. James cannot play single high well; he's a liability when he does. Fitz can do either.

Fitz can also stick to a wide receiver in man coverage, an assignment which if given to James would make me pause.

As far as their size, Fitz is the exact same size as two-time Superbowl champion strong safety Malcolm Jenkins.

Whatevs. We will see how it works out in time.


I don't quite buy that from Smith. We paid TJ Ward $5 million dollars to play in the box. He wasn't any good in center or manning up when he was five years younger. I also don't buy that Fitz would be special in man against against wide receivers all game. If he was, he'd be a boundary corner.

I think if we draft him, we'll be asking someone we're building around to do something they're not particularly good at instead of something they are. I don't think that's how you construct a unit.



I am not sure it will come to that. If we end up with a DB at 7, I think it will be James or Ward.

This whole conversation shows how far back the DB's are from the Big Three. No one has poked too many holes in the big three but each of the DB's has a contingent that hates something about their games.

Even though I have a big mancrush on James, if the big three are gone than a QB remains. The best thing is to try and get a load of picks for him. I would love those 2 firsts of Buffalo a lot more than any of these three DB's.
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Re: POLL: Which highly regarded player do you want to avoid?

Postby MJW » Thu Apr 26, 2018 1:57 am

terrytate wrote:
MJW wrote:
I don't quite buy that from Smith. We paid TJ Ward $5 million dollars to play in the box. He wasn't any good in center or manning up when he was five years younger. I also don't buy that Fitz would be special in man against against wide receivers all game. If he was, he'd be a boundary corner.

I think if we draft him, we'll be asking someone we're building around to do something they're not particularly good at instead of something they are. I don't think that's how you construct a unit.



I am not sure it will come to that. If we end up with a DB at 7, I think it will be James or Ward.

This whole conversation shows how far back the DB's are from the Big Three. No one has poked too many holes in the big three but each of the DB's has a contingent that hates something about their games.

Even though I have a big mancrush on James, if the big three are gone than a QB remains. The best thing is to try and get a load of picks for him. I would love those 2 firsts of Buffalo a lot more than any of these three DB's.


I have serious misgivings about James. I do. He probably has the highest ceiling and the lowest floor in this conversation. He could be Darren Woodson or he could be Taylor Mays.

I really hope it's Ward. You watch the guy and play after play he's Matt Damon to the receiver's Greg Kinnear. VHIII hasn't been playing with any confidence; Ward poops confidence. He's a #1 corner in this league. He'd get to learn from a Pro's Pro in Grimes for a year. He'd allow VHIII to stay in the slot. Everything would improve about our defense.
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Re: POLL: Which highly regarded player do you want to avoid?

Postby terrytate » Thu Apr 26, 2018 3:06 am

MJW wrote:
terrytate wrote:

I am not sure it will come to that. If we end up with a DB at 7, I think it will be James or Ward.

This whole conversation shows how far back the DB's are from the Big Three. No one has poked too many holes in the big three but each of the DB's has a contingent that hates something about their games.

Even though I have a big mancrush on James, if the big three are gone than a QB remains. The best thing is to try and get a load of picks for him. I would love those 2 firsts of Buffalo a lot more than any of these three DB's.


I have serious misgivings about James. I do. He probably has the highest ceiling and the lowest floor in this conversation. He could be Darren Woodson or he could be Taylor Mays.

I really hope it's Ward. You watch the guy and play after play he's Matt Damon to the receiver's Greg Kinnear. VHIII hasn't been playing with any confidence; Ward poops confidence. He's a #1 corner in this league. He'd get to learn from a Pro's Pro in Grimes for a year. He'd allow VHIII to stay in the slot. Everything would improve about our defense.



What you just said about Ward is exactly what they said about VH3 when he was drafted. He would come in, be the Robin to Grimes Batman and be a #1 corner sooner rather than later with extreme stickiness.
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Re: POLL: Which highly regarded player do you want to avoid?

Postby uscbucsfan » Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:22 am

My Fitz and James opinions have been adequately covered by Doc and Cheb.
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Re: POLL: Which highly regarded player do you want to avoid?

Postby Jason Bourne » Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:20 am

Yep , would rather trade back then draft Fitz or James .

I would much rather draft Ronnie Harrison later in the draft then Draft James at 7
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Re: POLL: Which highly regarded player do you want to avoid?

Postby MJW » Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:30 am

terrytate wrote:
MJW wrote:
I have serious misgivings about James. I do. He probably has the highest ceiling and the lowest floor in this conversation. He could be Darren Woodson or he could be Taylor Mays.

I really hope it's Ward. You watch the guy and play after play he's Matt Damon to the receiver's Greg Kinnear. VHIII hasn't been playing with any confidence; Ward poops confidence. He's a #1 corner in this league. He'd get to learn from a Pro's Pro in Grimes for a year. He'd allow VHIII to stay in the slot. Everything would improve about our defense.



What you just said about Ward is exactly what they said about VH3 when he was drafted. He would come in, be the Robin to Grimes Batman and be a #1 corner sooner rather than later with extreme stickiness.


Jesus, you're right. We should never draft a cornerback again.
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Re: POLL: Which highly regarded player do you want to avoid?

Postby DreadNaught » Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:51 am

Cheb wrote:James is a loafer, has an injury history, consistently loafs, didn't force many turnovers in college, and perhaps most importantly he is a person to whom loafing is not a foreign concept.

I don't give a **** about his measurables or upside. He gives up on plays and is lazy in pursuit. He ****ing WALKS a disturbing amount of the time.

No thank you. Walk for some other team. Ain't no room for loafers on a good defense.


I remember you used to knock Aaron Donald for loafing coming out of Pitt. I think it's the coach in you, which I respect.
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Re: POLL: Which highly regarded player do you want to avoid?

Postby Bootz2004 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:13 am

DreadNaught wrote:
Cheb wrote:James is a loafer, has an injury history, consistently loafs, didn't force many turnovers in college, and perhaps most importantly he is a person to whom loafing is not a foreign concept.

I don't give a **** about his measurables or upside. He gives up on plays and is lazy in pursuit. He ****ing WALKS a disturbing amount of the time.

No thank you. Walk for some other team. Ain't no room for loafers on a good defense.


I remember you used to knock Aaron Donald for loafing coming out of Pitt. I think it's the coach in you, which I respect.


I respect the hell out of the coach in Cheb. He's very informative and knowledgeable. But the GM is the exact opposite. Player evaluation is not Cheb's bread and butter. And it's mostly because of his make-up as a coach.
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Re: POLL: Which highly regarded player do you want to avoid?

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:17 am

Cheb wrote:James is a loafer, has an injury history, consistently loafs, didn't force many turnovers in college, and perhaps most importantly he is a person to whom loafing is not a foreign concept.

I don't give a **** about his measurables or upside. He gives up on plays and is lazy in pursuit. He ****ing WALKS a disturbing amount of the time.

No thank you. Walk for some other team. Ain't no room for loafers on a good defense.

Amen. For all his talent, I saw an awful lot of not giving a damn last season. How hungry is he?
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Re: POLL: Which highly regarded player do you want to avoid?

Postby Bootz2004 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:18 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Cheb wrote:James is a loafer, has an injury history, consistently loafs, didn't force many turnovers in college, and perhaps most importantly he is a person to whom loafing is not a foreign concept.

I don't give a **** about his measurables or upside. He gives up on plays and is lazy in pursuit. He ****ing WALKS a disturbing amount of the time.

No thank you. Walk for some other team. Ain't no room for loafers on a good defense.

Amen. For all his talent, I saw an awful lot of not giving a damn last season. How hungry is he?


He's hungrier than Chris Conte
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Re: POLL: Which highly regarded player do you want to avoid?

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:19 am

Bootz2004 wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:Amen. For all his talent, I saw an awful lot of not giving a damn last season. How hungry is he?


He's hungrier than Chris Conte

Is he?
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Re: POLL: Which highly regarded player do you want to avoid?

Postby Bootz2004 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:21 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
He's hungrier than Chris Conte

Is he?


MB, you're hungrier than Chris Conte.
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Re: POLL: Which highly regarded player do you want to avoid?

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:21 am

Bootz2004 wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:Is he?


MB, you're hungrier than Chris Conte.

That's not exactly a glowing endorsement of Derwin James when you put it that way.
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Re: POLL: Which highly regarded player do you want to avoid?

Postby Bootz2004 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:28 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
MB, you're hungrier than Chris Conte.

That's not exactly a glowing endorsement of Derwin James when you put it that way.


So what exactly are you saying? That he’s not worthy of a draft pick at all? That he should be a UDFA? What’s the point?
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Re: POLL: Which highly regarded player do you want to avoid?

Postby Jason Bourne » Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:35 am

Bootz2004 wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:That's not exactly a glowing endorsement of Derwin James when you put it that way.


So what exactly are you saying? That he’s not worthy of a draft pick at all? That he should be a UDFA? What’s the point?


I would say he isn't worth the 7th pick
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Re: POLL: Which highly regarded player do you want to avoid?

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:35 am

Bootz2004 wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:That's not exactly a glowing endorsement of Derwin James when you put it that way.


So what exactly are you saying? That he’s not worthy of a draft pick at all? That he should be a UDFA? What’s the point?

The point is that he has all the talent in the world but does not show as being hungry to win when the chips were down. He gives up.

James played his ass off week 1 against Alabama. After Francois went down, he played way beneath his ability.

Tape doesn't lie. You only need to watch the first ten seconds of this clip.



LOW effort got him embarrassed. That is a big red flag and I guarantee you he's been shown that clip more times in the last 3 months than he'd care to mention.
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Re: POLL: Which highly regarded player do you want to avoid?

Postby Jason Bourne » Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:40 am

harrison >>> James
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Re: POLL: Which highly regarded player do you want to avoid?

Postby Super K » Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:41 am

Hope we stay away from Derwin...

All sizzle, no steak...
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Re: POLL: Which highly regarded player do you want to avoid?

Postby Cheb » Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:42 am

DreadNaught wrote:
Cheb wrote:James is a loafer, has an injury history, consistently loafs, didn't force many turnovers in college, and perhaps most importantly he is a person to whom loafing is not a foreign concept.

I don't give a **** about his measurables or upside. He gives up on plays and is lazy in pursuit. He ****ing WALKS a disturbing amount of the time.

No thank you. Walk for some other team. Ain't no room for loafers on a good defense.


I remember you used to knock Aaron Donald for loafing coming out of Pitt. I think it's the coach in you, which I respect.


I never knocked Donald for loafing, because it was never an issue with him.

I was puzzled by Donald's damning inconsistency. Here was a typical Donald game when he was at Pitt: start pedestrian for a quarter, turn it on for a play to earn a mind-blowing sack, then get his ass kicked for an entire quarter quite badly, then get an amazing TFL, then disappear for a half in a very JAG'y way, then do something else that made you stand up outta your chair like being in the backfield so fast he gets called for offsides (shades of Gerald there).

My issue with Donald was his maddening inconsistency and about how poorly he looked between those flashes of greatness. Was he just getting lucky in timing the snap count, as opposed to having legit quickness off the snap? Or was he a guy who will give you four A+ plays a game and 50 C or D plays, hopefully those A plays outweighing the lower graded ones. Combined with him being undersized, I was trepidacious about him being an every down starter. As a pro, he became much more consistent and I've kept this scouting miss in mind ever since it happened.

Donald never loafed. James loafs all the time. If you thought Baker jumping offsides one time and laughing about it was bad, having a chronic loafer is far worse.
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Re: POLL: Which highly regarded player do you want to avoid?

Postby Buc You » Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:55 am

TBH, if it's anything other than Chubb/Nelson/Barkley and not a trade back I will be disappointed.
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Re: POLL: Which highly regarded player do you want to avoid?

Postby Deuce » Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:59 am

Picked James. I don't wanna say I want to avoid him but he's just my least favorite of the bunch.

I'd like Chubb, Nelson, Barkley, trade back, Fitz, Ward and then James.
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Re: POLL: Which highly regarded player do you want to avoid?

Postby Buc2 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:08 am

So far, the BZ consensus is James. So, James will be our man tonight. Mark it down.
#itsabucslife
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