The Buczone "Big 3"

Team Discussions regarding games, players, coaches, or anything else related to Buccaneer Football.
post

Will they become the best 3 players of this draft class?

Yes
3
21%
No
11
79%
 
Total votes : 14

Re: The Buczone "Big 3"

Postby Bootz2004 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:03 am

RobR wrote:It's statistically unlikely that they come out of it as the best three players in the draft, but I do believe they are the best 3 prospects at this point.

Edit: For us, specifically, they also happen to fit in with 3 positions of significant need. So when the need and talent algorithm is worked out (however much emphasis you put on the need side or the talent side of that calculation) they rank significantly higher than anyone else on the board.


That is kind of my point. The need is what pushes them higher on this board. Not just Derwin James but Minkah, Roquan Smith, Darnold. You can make cases for all 3 of those guys being better prospects. Hell there are sites, mocks, and rankings that have those guys ahead of the BZ Big 3.
User avatar
Bootz2004
 
Posts: 21948
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 4:17 pm
Has thanked: 101 times
Been thanked: 464 times

Re: The Buczone "Big 3"

Postby DreadNaught » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:11 am

Bootz2004 wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
Do you know what concensus means?

Fanspeak has like 20+ different big boards and they also offer a composite board which is an average of all the big boards. Guess who the top 3 are on that composite?

Walter Football aggregates over 100 various mock drafts, guess who the top 3 non-QB prospects are in terms of average draft position? (hint - it's the same answer)

The premise of your OP is wrong. The concensus here at BZ just happens to agree with overall consensus regarding the top 3 prospects.


I'm not talking about non QB. I'm talking overall. And even still your "concensus" is obviously cherry picked to fit your agenda here. Fanspeak. Walter. Where do they get their information from? Fans like you and I? What about Draftnek? CBS? FOX? USA Today? ESPN? NBC Sports? Are they excluded?


I'm not the one pitching the agenda here. You made an OP that wasn't well thought out and got called on it immediately.

Fanspeak gets in input from various draft websites (including CBS) who provide their big boards. Have you never been to fanspeak.com to do a mock draft? You should check it out.

WalterFootball pulls/aggregates the various mock drafts out there including the well known sites you named. Everyone from Danial Jerimiah and the other NFLN folks that do mocks to people like Luke Easterling. It's a mix of media draftniks, writers, and former scouts who now work in the media.

Including the QBs the top 3 prospects on most big boards (i.e. the consensus) is the same as the 'Big 3' you mentioned. When it comes to mock drafts positional value is factored in so these QBs are going higher in mocks than they are ranked on big boards. I believe you know the difference between a mock draft and a big board though.
Image
User avatar
DreadNaught
 
Posts: 11716
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 9:18 am
Has thanked: 479 times
Been thanked: 502 times

Re: The Buczone "Big 3"

Postby Bootz2004 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:16 am

DreadNaught wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
I'm not talking about non QB. I'm talking overall. And even still your "concensus" is obviously cherry picked to fit your agenda here. Fanspeak. Walter. Where do they get their information from? Fans like you and I? What about Draftnek? CBS? FOX? USA Today? ESPN? NBC Sports? Are they excluded?


I'm not the one pitching the agenda here. You made an OP that wasn't well thought out and got called on it immediately.

Fanspeak gets in input from various draft websites (including CBS) who provide their big boards. Have you never been to fanspeak.com to do a mock draft? You should check it out.

WalterFootball pulls/aggregates the various mock drafts out there including the well known sites you named. Everyone from Danial Jerimiah and the other NFLN folks that do mocks to people like Luke Easterling. It's a mix of media draftniks, writers, and former scouts who now work in the media.

Including the QBs the top 3 prospects on most big boards (i.e. the consensus) is the same as the 'Big 3' you mentioned. When it comes to mock drafts positional value is factored in so these QBs are going higher in mocks than they are ranked on big boards. I believe you know the difference between a mock draft and a big board though.


Agenda? I asked a question. You and several others got up in arms about it and started concocting. Just answer the OP. Yes or No?
User avatar
Bootz2004
 
Posts: 21948
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 4:17 pm
Has thanked: 101 times
Been thanked: 464 times

Re: The Buczone "Big 3"

Postby Doctor » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:18 am

QB is always extra trickier than any other position. There isn't even a consensus on who the top one is in the draft, let alone who will go #1, or where they rank overall.

As for "sites, mocks, and rankings", sure you can find any site you want that says that, but the reality is the BZ top three is usually in at least the top 5. And look at the two big guys, NFL.com and ESPN.com, who are their top three? Barkley, Nelson, Chubb. Followed by Darnold and Smith, which is exactly how it should be. IMO, I but Fits and Darnold right above Chubb too.

1. Nelson
1b. Barkley
3. Fitz
4. Darnold
5. Chubb
5b. Smith


I realize that not everyone else shares my chubb for Fitz, but if you remove him, that is pretty much the consensus top 5. And yes, Barkley, Nelson, Chubb seem to be the consensus big 3, ahead of the QBs, even outside this board.
Image
User avatar
Doctor
 
Posts: 5030
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2015 6:54 pm
Location: Out of the Office. Will return next Fall.
Has thanked: 209 times
Been thanked: 149 times

Re: The Buczone "Big 3"

Postby DreadNaught » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:21 am

Bootz2004 wrote:What about Draftnek? CBS? FOX? USA Today? ESPN? NBC Sports? Are they excluded?


Drafttek
1 Sam Darnold
2 Saquon Barkley
3 Bradley Chubb
4 Josh Rosen
5 Minkah Fitzpatrick
6 Denzel Ward
7 Quenton Nelson
12 - Derwin

CBS
1 - Chubb
2 - James
3 - Nelson
4 - Smith
5 - Sutton
6 - Barkley

NBC (via Rotoworld)
1 - Rosen
2 - Nelson
3 - Barkley
4 - James
5 - Chubb

Fanspeak Composite (which averages 32 different big boards)
1 - Barkley
2 - Chubb
3 - Nelson
4 - Rosen
5 - Smith
Image
User avatar
DreadNaught
 
Posts: 11716
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 9:18 am
Has thanked: 479 times
Been thanked: 502 times

Re: The Buczone "Big 3"

Postby DreadNaught » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:23 am

Bootz2004 wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
I'm not the one pitching the agenda here. You made an OP that wasn't well thought out and got called on it immediately.

Fanspeak gets in input from various draft websites (including CBS) who provide their big boards. Have you never been to fanspeak.com to do a mock draft? You should check it out.

WalterFootball pulls/aggregates the various mock drafts out there including the well known sites you named. Everyone from Danial Jerimiah and the other NFLN folks that do mocks to people like Luke Easterling. It's a mix of media draftniks, writers, and former scouts who now work in the media.

Including the QBs the top 3 prospects on most big boards (i.e. the consensus) is the same as the 'Big 3' you mentioned. When it comes to mock drafts positional value is factored in so these QBs are going higher in mocks than they are ranked on big boards. I believe you know the difference between a mock draft and a big board though.


Agenda? I asked a question. You and several others got up in arms about it and started concocting. Just answer the OP. Yes or No?


The OP is two questions conflated together, yet only one response is allowed. So like I said it's not very thought out. My answer to the OP would be neither, but that wasn't an option.

Which of the "BZ Big 3" would you pass on for Derwin James (or some other prospect)? <--- This would've been a better way for you to start this thread imo instead of this nonsense insinuation that only us here at BZ have these 3 specific prospects as the top 3. Obviously there will be boards and mocks that will have others ranked higher, nobody is debating that those big boards or mocks don't exist. Hell, posters here don't have those 3 has the top 3. Maybe you're being thrown off by 'consensus', but all I mean by that is that the majority opinion based on available data is that those are the top 3 prospects. It's ok to have a differing opinion and what makes draft talk fun imo.
Last edited by DreadNaught on Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
Image
User avatar
DreadNaught
 
Posts: 11716
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 9:18 am
Has thanked: 479 times
Been thanked: 502 times

Re: The Buczone "Big 3"

Postby Bootz2004 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:27 am

DreadNaught wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:What about Draftnek? CBS? FOX? USA Today? ESPN? NBC Sports? Are they excluded?


Drafttek
1 Sam Darnold
2 Saquon Barkley
3 Bradley Chubb
4 Josh Rosen
5 Minkah Fitzpatrick
6 Denzel Ward
7 Quenton Nelson
12 - Derwin

CBS
1 - Chubb
2 - James
3 - Nelson
4 - Smith
5 - Sutton
6 - Barkley

NBC (via Rotoworld)
1 - Rosen
2 - Nelson
3 - Barkley
4 - James
5 - Chubb

Fanspeak Composite (which averages 32 different big boards)
1 - Barkley
2 - Chubb
3 - Nelson
4 - Rosen
5 - Smith


Don't just say 32 different big boards. What 32 big boards? Who created them?
User avatar
Bootz2004
 
Posts: 21948
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 4:17 pm
Has thanked: 101 times
Been thanked: 464 times

Re: The Buczone "Big 3"

Postby Deuce » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:28 am

They're the 3 best prospects. Whether they'll become the 3 best players or not, we can decide that in 3 years.
User avatar
Deuce
 
Posts: 1099
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 7:23 pm
Has thanked: 39 times
Been thanked: 30 times

Re: The Buczone "Big 3"

Postby beardmcdoug » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:29 am

lmfao bootz you giving ghostcrap a run with this terrible OP and defense
User avatar
beardmcdoug
 
Posts: 2654
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2016 12:30 pm
Has thanked: 304 times
Been thanked: 197 times

Re: The Buczone "Big 3"

Postby Rocker » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:36 am

beardmcdoug wrote:lmfao bootz you giving ghostcrap a run with this terrible OP and defense



HOW DARE YOU BESMIRCH THE 34 NICKLE DEFENSE, YOU PEASANT!
Image
User avatar
Rocker
 
Posts: 3318
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 12:23 am
Location: Valrico
Has thanked: 193 times
Been thanked: 175 times

Re: The Buczone "Big 3"

Postby DreadNaught » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:37 am

Bootz2004 wrote:Don't just say 32 different big boards. What 32 big boards? Who created them?


You should really check out Fanspeak.com

Bleacher Report - Matt Miller
Nachmany Football
Draft Countdown
Drafttek
Draft Analyst
Dynasty Football Factory - Carter Donnick
Fanspeak
Draft Utopia
Zone Coverage Consensus Big Board - Arif Hasan
Mile High Huddle
Breaking Football
NBC - Rotoworld - Thor Nystrom
DRAFTPLEX
CBS - Chris Trapasso
Cheesehead TV - Ross Uglem
NFL Rough Draft
ProFootballTalkLine
Optimum Scouting - Eric Galko
Falcons Wire
NFL Draft Scout
Deep Fried Draft
NDT Scouting - Jonah Tuls
Kingdom Connection
Inside the Pylon
Draftwire - Justin Melo
DraftScouts.com - Joe Everett
Draftwire - Luke Easterling
RealGM.com - Jeff Risdon
NDT Scouting - Joe Marino
NFL Mock
NDT Scouting - Kyle Crabbs
WalterFootball
Image
User avatar
DreadNaught
 
Posts: 11716
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 9:18 am
Has thanked: 479 times
Been thanked: 502 times

Re: The Buczone "Big 3"

Postby RobR » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:38 am

Bootz2004 wrote:
RobR wrote:It's statistically unlikely that they come out of it as the best three players in the draft, but I do believe they are the best 3 prospects at this point.

Edit: For us, specifically, they also happen to fit in with 3 positions of significant need. So when the need and talent algorithm is worked out (however much emphasis you put on the need side or the talent side of that calculation) they rank significantly higher than anyone else on the board.


That is kind of my point. The need is what pushes them higher on this board. Not just Derwin James but Minkah, Roquan Smith, Darnold. You can make cases for all 3 of those guys being better prospects. Hell there are sites, mocks, and rankings that have those guys ahead of the BZ Big 3.


Totally. But in my opinion they're the 3 best prospects. The need aspect is just what separates them from the others so much that they've been given this 'big 3' tag.

But it's still statistically highly unlikely that they end up being the best three players when all is said and done, making it nearly impossible to answer the question with a yes.

I'd be interested to see the discussion if the question asked "Are these the 3 best players in this draft?".
RobR
 
Posts: 283
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 4:23 pm
Has thanked: 10 times
Been thanked: 5 times

Re: The Buczone "Big 3"

Postby Jason Bourne » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:40 am

Deuce wrote:They're the 3 best prospects. Whether they'll become the 3 best players or not, we can decide that in 3 years.


yep, and I would say none of the Qbs will be in the probowl in 3 yrs. Saquon and Quentin certainly will be in the probowl and really good chance Chubb will be too.

Minkah wont but because nobody seems to know what position he will play, Ward doubtful and sorry but James isn't that impressive.

Roquan could be probowl in 2 or 3 yrs .
Jason Bourne
 
Posts: 3766
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2015 7:47 am
Location: Clearwater
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 28 times

Re: The Buczone "Big 3"

Postby NYBF » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:42 am

Spoiler alert:

Spoiler:
boots wants you to say they won't be the 3 best players (which is clearly the answer because there are countless variables involved in scouting a player. The only certainty is that any top 3 prospect list will *NOT* ultimately be the 3 best players drafted that year) so he can then argue with you about why you want the Bucs to draft players who will not become the best players.
Image
User avatar
NYBF
 
Posts: 5367
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 11:46 am
Has thanked: 183 times
Been thanked: 436 times

Re: The Buczone "Big 3"

Postby Jason Bourne » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:43 am

NYBF wrote:Spoiler alert:

Spoiler:
boots wants you to say they won't be the 3 best players (which is clearly the answer because there are countless variables involved in scouting a player. The only certainty is that any top 3 prospect list will *NOT* ultimately be the 3 best players drafted that year) so he can then argue with you about why you want the Bucs to draft players who will not become the best players.



as long as we Don't draft James or Minkah we will do just fine
Jason Bourne
 
Posts: 3766
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2015 7:47 am
Location: Clearwater
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 28 times

Re: The Buczone "Big 3"

Postby Zarniwoop » Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:13 am

NYBF wrote:Spoiler alert:

Spoiler:
boots wants you to say they won't be the 3 best players (which is clearly the answer because there are countless variables involved in scouting a player. The only certainty is that any top 3 prospect list will *NOT* ultimately be the 3 best players drafted that year) so he can then argue with you about why you want the Bucs to draft players who will not become the best players.



I must say this thread is particularly impressive

the degree of contorting, lack of consistency and illogic that gets one here is something else
Zarniwoop
 
Posts: 5035
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 12:23 pm
Has thanked: 190 times
Been thanked: 247 times

Re: The Buczone "Big 3"

Postby theBKwhopper » Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:29 am

NYBF wrote:
theBKwhopper wrote:Yes or no what? You gave us two different reasons why they would be considered the big 3. Which of those two am I saying no to?


Yes.

Thank you.
User avatar
theBKwhopper
 
Posts: 3917
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 3:39 am
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 76 times

Re: The Buczone "Big 3"

Postby deltbucs » Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:31 am

I don't know...I still like the 4-3 front.
Image
deltbucs
 
Posts: 4793
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 2:28 pm
Has thanked: 211 times
Been thanked: 286 times

Re: The Buczone "Big 3"

Postby NYBF » Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:55 am

theBKwhopper wrote:
NYBF wrote:
Yes.

Thank you.


Anytime.
Image
User avatar
NYBF
 
Posts: 5367
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 11:46 am
Has thanked: 183 times
Been thanked: 436 times

Re: The Buczone "Big 3"

Postby DreadNaught » Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:56 am

deltbucs wrote:I don't know...I still like the 4-3 front.


4-3 nickel?
Image
User avatar
DreadNaught
 
Posts: 11716
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 9:18 am
Has thanked: 479 times
Been thanked: 502 times

Re: The Buczone "Big 3"

Postby Buc2 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:02 pm

Image
Image
Don't tread on me
User avatar
Buc2
 
Posts: 9933
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 2:16 pm
Location: America
Has thanked: 845 times
Been thanked: 321 times

Re: The Buczone "Big 3"

Postby theBKwhopper » Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:11 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
deltbucs wrote:I don't know...I still like the 4-3 front.


4-3 nickel?

Haha classic
User avatar
theBKwhopper
 
Posts: 3917
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2015 3:39 am
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 76 times

Re: The Buczone "Big 3"

Postby Selmon Rules » Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:20 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
RobR wrote:It's statistically unlikely that they come out of it as the best three players in the draft, but I do believe they are the best 3 prospects at this point.

Edit: For us, specifically, they also happen to fit in with 3 positions of significant need. So when the need and talent algorithm is worked out (however much emphasis you put on the need side or the talent side of that calculation) they rank significantly higher than anyone else on the board.


That is kind of my point. The need is what pushes them higher on this board. Not just Derwin James but Minkah, Roquan Smith, Darnold. You can make cases for all 3 of those guys being better prospects. Hell there are sites, mocks, and rankings that have those guys ahead of the BZ Big 3.

So if you believe Darnold is going to be among the top 3 players, we should draft him??
Sig currently being held hostage by Photobucket, will return next fall
User avatar
Selmon Rules
 
Posts: 719
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 2:27 pm
Has thanked: 69 times
Been thanked: 19 times

Re: The Buczone "Big 3"

Postby selmon63 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:46 pm

This question is like do you take Tiger or the field. There will be 200+ players drafted, so statistically speaking some indiscriminate player(s) in the overall pool of draftees have a higher likelihood of success compared to just three players
selmon63
 
Posts: 40
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 3:26 pm
Has thanked: 18 times
Been thanked: 0 time

Re: The Buczone "Big 3"

Postby MJW » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:07 pm

Your basic Bootz thread.

- Creates the thread without revealing his agenda, but asking everyone to defend their position on something.
- Won't actually engage in his own argument, instead simply informs everyone else their position is wrong.
- By Page Two, we're arguing about what the word "is" means.

Good stuff.
Image
User avatar
MJW
 
Posts: 8297
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 5:17 am
Location: Nebraska
Has thanked: 187 times
Been thanked: 358 times

Re: The Buczone "Big 3"

Postby Doctor » Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:18 pm

Jason Bourne wrote:
NYBF wrote:Spoiler alert:

Spoiler:
boots wants you to say they won't be the 3 best players (which is clearly the answer because there are countless variables involved in scouting a player. The only certainty is that any top 3 prospect list will *NOT* ultimately be the 3 best players drafted that year) so he can then argue with you about why you want the Bucs to draft players who will not become the best players.



as long as we Don't draft James or Minkah we will do just fine

Got news for you...
Image
User avatar
Doctor
 
Posts: 5030
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2015 6:54 pm
Location: Out of the Office. Will return next Fall.
Has thanked: 209 times
Been thanked: 149 times

Re: The Buczone "Big 3"

Postby Jason Bourne » Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:10 am

Doctor wrote:
Jason Bourne wrote:

as long as we Don't draft James or Minkah we will do just fine

Got news for you...


Not gonna happen
Jason Bourne
 
Posts: 3766
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2015 7:47 am
Location: Clearwater
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 28 times

Previous

post

Return to Team Discussions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Deja Entendu, Super K and 21 guests