List your top 5 Positions of need in order

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Re: List your top 5 Positions of need in order

Postby Doctor » Wed Apr 04, 2018 3:48 pm

real bucs fan wrote:
Doctor wrote:Fitz has all the physical and mental tools. His only issue is that he's played all over instead of just mastering one, but that's nothing that can't be fixed with a little coaching and time.

He's a great athlete, but he doesn't have CB hips or the elite agility needed to mirror WRs IMO.

In what world? You could argue that Ward is *more* agile or whatever, which are two traits he is superior, but that doesn't mean Minkah *isn't*. Not even close.
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Re: List your top 5 Positions of need in order

Postby Bootz2004 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:19 pm

Doctor wrote:
real bucs fan wrote:He's a great athlete, but he doesn't have CB hips or the elite agility needed to mirror WRs IMO.

In what world? You could argue that Ward is *more* agile or whatever, which are two traits he is superior, but that doesn't mean Minkah *isn't*. Not even close.


In his dream world. Kid doesn’t know football but he tries too hard to make it seem like he does.
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Re: List your top 5 Positions of need in order

Postby real bucs fan » Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:28 pm

So who wants to bet that Fitz gets drafted to play safety and not CB? Considering the value of CBs to Safety's, if he could play CB that's what he'd be drafted to play, right? Any takers?
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Re: List your top 5 Positions of need in order

Postby Bootz2004 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:35 pm

real bucs fan wrote:So who wants to bet that Fitz gets drafted to play safety and not CB? Considering the value of CBs to Safety's, if he could play CB that's what he'd be drafted to play, right? Any takers?


Anytime your mouth writes a check your ass can't cash you run to making a bet or some back pedaling statement like "just watch, you'll see!" It's the closest thing to a surrender you'll admit to but it shows your lack of acumen.
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Re: List your top 5 Positions of need in order

Postby real bucs fan » Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:40 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
real bucs fan wrote:So who wants to bet that Fitz gets drafted to play safety and not CB? Considering the value of CBs to Safety's, if he could play CB that's what he'd be drafted to play, right? Any takers?


Anytime your mouth writes a check your ass can't cash you run to making a bet or some back pedaling statement like "just watch, you'll see!" It's the closest thing to a surrender you'll admit to but it shows your lack of acumen.

So you'll take the bet?
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Re: List your top 5 Positions of need in order

Postby Bootz2004 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:48 pm

real bucs fan wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
Anytime your mouth writes a check your ass can't cash you run to making a bet or some back pedaling statement like "just watch, you'll see!" It's the closest thing to a surrender you'll admit to but it shows your lack of acumen.

So you'll take the bet?


No but I'll gladly discuss how wrong you are.
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Re: List your top 5 Positions of need in order

Postby real bucs fan » Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:50 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
real bucs fan wrote:So you'll take the bet?


No but I'll gladly discuss how wrong you are.

Surrender noted.
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Re: List your top 5 Positions of need in order

Postby Bootz2004 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:08 pm

real bucs fan wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
No but I'll gladly discuss how wrong you are.

Surrender noted.


Yep, you sure got me, bud. Somebody tell him what he's won, please! He got 1 over on old Bootz!
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Re: List your top 5 Positions of need in order

Postby MJW » Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:31 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
MJW wrote:
Ward has the stuff to be an excellent boundary corner out on the island against top receivers. Fitz doesn't. Ward is what we need more than anything else on this 53 right now. I mean, by a mile.


What doesn't Fitz have? I look at the landscape of the NFL and there's no way you can convince me that there are 64 starting outside corners who are better than Fitz.


The "64 better" standard is STUPID. You don't draft a player at #7 because you're hoping he can be one of the 64 best at his position. Unless it's a god-awful draft class, you make that pick expecting a top five player at this position. This is again you not understanding resources.

To answer your question, he has tight hips. He's more comfortable moving forward towards the play (like a safety) than backpeddling (like a corner.) He can be too aggressive in coverage, overplaying the ball and the receiver.

I'm sure he's athletic enough to be a "top 64" level boundary cornerback. But you draft him to be a "top 5" level playmaking safety. OR you draft Denzel Ward to be a top five level cover corner - which he has the ability to become. IMHO that is a much rarer and more valuable thing to find in this league.
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Re: List your top 5 Positions of need in order

Postby Doctor » Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:51 pm

real bucs fan wrote:So who wants to bet that Fitz gets drafted to play safety and not CB? Considering the value of CBs to Safety's, if he could play CB that's what he'd be drafted to play, right? Any takers?

Wrong. He could be a safety for many other reasons, like here in Tampa he'd be a safety so we can get the best five DBs on the field, as opposed to making him a CB and putting Tandy on the field instead of VH3 or Ryan Smith who are better.
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Re: List your top 5 Positions of need in order

Postby Doctor » Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:54 pm

MJW wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
What doesn't Fitz have? I look at the landscape of the NFL and there's no way you can convince me that there are 64 starting outside corners who are better than Fitz.


The "64 better" standard is STUPID. You don't draft a player at #7 because you're hoping he can be one of the 64 best at his position. Unless it's a god-awful draft class, you make that pick expecting a top five player at this position. This is again you not understanding resources.

To answer your question, he has tight hips. He's more comfortable moving forward towards the play (like a safety) than backpeddling (like a corner.) He can be too aggressive in coverage, overplaying the ball and the receiver.

I'm sure he's athletic enough to be a "top 64" level boundary cornerback. But you draft him to be a "top 5" level playmaking safety. OR you draft Denzel Ward to be a top five level cover corner - which he has the ability to become. IMHO that is a much rarer and more valuable thing to find in this league.

EVERY HUMAN BEING IS MORE COMFORTABLE MOVING FORWARD THAN BACK PEDDLING! Even CBs prefer to run forward, what dumb **** is that? His skills right now lean safety because that's what he's been doing. But he can easily be recoached corner habits. Any coach worth their salt would see that and want to coach that. Ward can get balled up by bigger WRs. Mike Evans could take Ward easy. I'd much rather have the guy who's 3 inches and 20 lb larger.
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Re: List your top 5 Positions of need in order

Postby MJW » Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:14 am

Doctor wrote:
MJW wrote:
The "64 better" standard is STUPID. You don't draft a player at #7 because you're hoping he can be one of the 64 best at his position. Unless it's a god-awful draft class, you make that pick expecting a top five player at this position. This is again you not understanding resources.

To answer your question, he has tight hips. He's more comfortable moving forward towards the play (like a safety) than backpeddling (like a corner.) He can be too aggressive in coverage, overplaying the ball and the receiver.

I'm sure he's athletic enough to be a "top 64" level boundary cornerback. But you draft him to be a "top 5" level playmaking safety. OR you draft Denzel Ward to be a top five level cover corner - which he has the ability to become. IMHO that is a much rarer and more valuable thing to find in this league.

EVERY HUMAN BEING IS MORE COMFORTABLE MOVING FORWARD THAN BACK PEDDLING! Even CBs prefer to run forward, what dumb **** is that? His skills right now lean safety because that's what he's been doing. But he can easily be recoached corner habits. Any coach worth their salt would see that and want to coach that. Ward can get balled up by bigger WRs. Mike Evans could take Ward easy. I'd much rather have the guy who's 3 inches and 20 lb larger.


Way to purposefully misconstrue what I'm saying, and still be wrong about everything.

Some guys look a lot more natural backpeddling, turning, and covering down the field than others do. Fitz does not.
Some guys are great at moving towards the play, picking the right angle of approach, and timing their response. Fitz does.

As for Ward "getting balled by bigger receivers," watch him play. He shut down plenty of bigger receivers. He plays tall, he has great hops and long arms. And he hits like a safety.
As far as the bigger corner being the better option, that's total horseshit. It's such a ridiculous statement it doesn't dignify response. Ward is 5'11 191. That's as tall or taller as most of the Pro Bowl corners in the league, and heavier than most of them too.

I'm going to call you "Dr. Mario" because you seemed to have learned football from playing video games.
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Re: List your top 5 Positions of need in order

Postby Deuce » Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:35 am

MJW wrote:
Doctor wrote:EVERY HUMAN BEING IS MORE COMFORTABLE MOVING FORWARD THAN BACK PEDDLING! Even CBs prefer to run forward, what dumb **** is that? His skills right now lean safety because that's what he's been doing. But he can easily be recoached corner habits. Any coach worth their salt would see that and want to coach that. Ward can get balled up by bigger WRs. Mike Evans could take Ward easy. I'd much rather have the guy who's 3 inches and 20 lb larger.


Way to purposefully misconstrue what I'm saying, and still be wrong about everything.

Some guys look a lot more natural backpeddling, turning, and covering down the field than others do. Fitz does not.
Some guys are great at moving towards the play, picking the right angle of approach, and timing their response. Fitz does.

As for Ward "getting balled by bigger receivers," watch him play. He shut down plenty of bigger receivers. He plays tall, he has great hops and long arms. And he hits like a safety.
As far as the bigger corner being the better option, that's total horseshit. It's such a ridiculous statement it doesn't dignify response. Ward is 5'11 191. That's as tall or taller as most of the Pro Bowl corners in the league, and heavier than most of them too.

I'm going to call you "Dr. Mario" because you seemed to have learned football from playing video games.


Not saying you're wrong but this is literally the exact opposite of what I've read in every scouting report. Everyone else is saying that he plays small, gets bullied by bigger receivers and misses plays due to his lack of size.
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Re: List your top 5 Positions of need in order

Postby MJW » Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:23 am

Deuce wrote:
MJW wrote:
Way to purposefully misconstrue what I'm saying, and still be wrong about everything.

Some guys look a lot more natural backpeddling, turning, and covering down the field than others do. Fitz does not.
Some guys are great at moving towards the play, picking the right angle of approach, and timing their response. Fitz does.

As for Ward "getting balled by bigger receivers," watch him play. He shut down plenty of bigger receivers. He plays tall, he has great hops and long arms. And he hits like a safety.
As far as the bigger corner being the better option, that's total horseshit. It's such a ridiculous statement it doesn't dignify response. Ward is 5'11 191. That's as tall or taller as most of the Pro Bowl corners in the league, and heavier than most of them too.

I'm going to call you "Dr. Mario" because you seemed to have learned football from playing video games.


Not saying you're wrong but this is literally the exact opposite of what I've read in every scouting report. Everyone else is saying that he plays small, gets bullied by bigger receivers and misses plays due to his lack of size.


I watched him plenty in the Big Ten. The only way he "plays small" is that his coverage is usually so good he doesn't have to play any bigger. People be nitpicking. He's a pure cover corner.
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Re: List your top 5 Positions of need in order

Postby Doctor » Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:24 pm

MJW wrote:
Doctor wrote:EVERY HUMAN BEING IS MORE COMFORTABLE MOVING FORWARD THAN BACK PEDDLING! Even CBs prefer to run forward, what dumb **** is that? His skills right now lean safety because that's what he's been doing. But he can easily be recoached corner habits. Any coach worth their salt would see that and want to coach that. Ward can get balled up by bigger WRs. Mike Evans could take Ward easy. I'd much rather have the guy who's 3 inches and 20 lb larger.


Way to purposefully misconstrue what I'm saying, and still be wrong about everything.

Some guys look a lot more natural backpeddling, turning, and covering down the field than others do. Fitz does not.
Some guys are great at moving towards the play, picking the right angle of approach, and timing their response. Fitz does.

As for Ward "getting balled by bigger receivers," watch him play. He shut down plenty of bigger receivers. He plays tall, he has great hops and long arms. And he hits like a safety.
As far as the bigger corner being the better option, that's total horseshit. It's such a ridiculous statement it doesn't dignify response. Ward is 5'11 191. That's as tall or taller as most of the Pro Bowl corners in the league, and heavier than most of them too.

I'm going to call you "Dr. Mario" because you seemed to have learned football from playing video games.


Too bad he's 5'10 according to any real source. He's small. He put on a little weight before the combine, good for him, but he's still small. Fitz is big, plays big, and is a baller. CB or S it would be a huge mistake to take Ward over Fitz. It's not even close.
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Re: List your top 5 Positions of need in order

Postby VauntedTampa2 » Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:41 pm

The lesser the athlete, the closer you put him to the LOS.

This is the reasoning I use at the high school level, at least.

Maybe that's what MJW was getting at.
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Re: List your top 5 Positions of need in order

Postby Cheb » Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:15 pm

VauntedTampa2 wrote:The lesser the athlete, the closer you put him to the LOS.

This is the reasoning I use at the high school level, at least.

Maybe that's what MJW was getting at.


Your pass rush must be painful :P
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Re: List your top 5 Positions of need in order

Postby VauntedTampa2 » Sat Apr 07, 2018 2:24 pm

Back 7 of course.. un-athletic LBs move to DE, CB/S to LB.

Small school of 600...

Pass rush is already non-existent; been working on it all off-season. OL/DL is the hardest to coach at the high school level, imo.

How's your off-season going?
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Re: List your top 5 Positions of need in order

Postby Cheb » Sat Apr 07, 2018 3:24 pm

VauntedTampa2 wrote:Back 7 of course.. un-athletic LBs move to DE, CB/S to LB.

Small school of 600...

Pass rush is already non-existent; been working on it all off-season. OL/DL is the hardest to coach at the high school level, imo.

How's your off-season going?


I agree about line play. The subtleties are often hard for newer players to grasp, and when your linemen are having a bad day, your whole team will have a bad day. I spend most of my time with the lines.

This offseason is a mixed bag. On the upside, it's year two of being a head coach and continuity is nice. On the downside, I lost my offensive coordinator. On the upside, we butted heads a lot anyways, so him moving on was probably for the best. On the downside, I lost 19 of my 22 starters to graduation. On the upside, my presumptive starting quarterback can really spin it, so maybe the offense will be more balanced this upcoming year. On the downside, no one can kick. On the upside, maybe we'll be crazy and never punt this year except in truly dire circumstances (the numbers bear this strategy out statistically).

How's your offseason treating ya?
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Re: List your top 5 Positions of need in order

Postby DreadNaught » Sat Apr 07, 2018 3:30 pm

Doctor wrote:Too bad he's 5'10 according to any real source.


Ward measured at 5'10" and 7/8ths" in front of a room full of scouts at the combine. Then was measured again at his pro day and measured exactly the same. Those are facts regardless of your real source nonsense. If you have a hard on for calling him 5'10" because it makes it easier to call him short then cool.

But some people just give him that 1/8th inch.

His success or failure in the NFL won't be due to he lack of height either way.
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Re: List your top 5 Positions of need in order

Postby MJW » Sat Apr 07, 2018 4:33 pm

Doctor wrote:
MJW wrote:
Way to purposefully misconstrue what I'm saying, and still be wrong about everything.

Some guys look a lot more natural backpeddling, turning, and covering down the field than others do. Fitz does not.
Some guys are great at moving towards the play, picking the right angle of approach, and timing their response. Fitz does.

As for Ward "getting balled by bigger receivers," watch him play. He shut down plenty of bigger receivers. He plays tall, he has great hops and long arms. And he hits like a safety.
As far as the bigger corner being the better option, that's total horseshit. It's such a ridiculous statement it doesn't dignify response. Ward is 5'11 191. That's as tall or taller as most of the Pro Bowl corners in the league, and heavier than most of them too.


I'm going to call you "Dr. Mario" because you seemed to have learned football from playing video games.


Too bad he's 5'10 according to any real source. He's small. He put on a little weight before the combine, good for him, but he's still small. Fitz is big, plays big, and is a baller. CB or S it would be a huge mistake to take Ward over Fitz. It's not even close.


It's not "CB or S."

A boundary corner who can contain (or shut down) his coverage target is more valuable than a free safety doing the miscellaneous things we'd use Fitz for.

And, as I've demonstrated in several threads, guys shorter and lighter than Ward are playing at pro bowl levels all over the league.

BTW, Ronde Barber was 3/4ths of an inch shorter and 7 lbs. lighter than ward. Brent Grimes is an inch shorter and ten pounds lighter. Brian Kelly's measurements are almost identical to Ward's. He's not nearly as big as Myron Lewis or Ryan Smith, I'll give you that.
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Re: List your top 5 Positions of need in order

Postby DreadNaught » Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:41 pm

MJW wrote:
Doctor wrote:
Too bad he's 5'10 according to any real source. He's small. He put on a little weight before the combine, good for him, but he's still small. Fitz is big, plays big, and is a baller. CB or S it would be a huge mistake to take Ward over Fitz. It's not even close.


It's not "CB or S."

A boundary corner who can contain (or shut down) his coverage target is more valuable than a free safety doing the miscellaneous things we'd use Fitz for.

And, as I've demonstrated in several threads, guys shorter and lighter than Ward are playing at pro bowl levels all over the league.

BTW, Ronde Barber was 3/4ths of an inch shorter and 7 lbs. lighter than ward. Brent Grimes is an inch shorter and ten pounds lighter. Brian Kelly's measurements are almost identical to Ward's. He's not nearly as big as Myron Lewis or Ryan Smith, I'll give you that.


Yup. Like RBF said 'if a dude can play then he can play'. Ward is an elite athlete at CB. The best skillset to play CB in the NFL imo.

It's nothing against FItz. The kid is a stud also. Bucs could do a lot worse than taking him. Ward just projects easier at a more valuable position. Many BB have Ward higher than Fitz so it's not crazy.
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Re: List your top 5 Positions of need in order

Postby mdb1958 » Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:46 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
MJW wrote:
It's not "CB or S."

A boundary corner who can contain (or shut down) his coverage target is more valuable than a free safety doing the miscellaneous things we'd use Fitz for.

And, as I've demonstrated in several threads, guys shorter and lighter than Ward are playing at pro bowl levels all over the league.

BTW, Ronde Barber was 3/4ths of an inch shorter and 7 lbs. lighter than ward. Brent Grimes is an inch shorter and ten pounds lighter. Brian Kelly's measurements are almost identical to Ward's. He's not nearly as big as Myron Lewis or Ryan Smith, I'll give you that.


Yup. Like RBF said 'if a dude can play then he can play'. Ward is an elite athlete at CB. The best skillset to play CB in the NFL imo.

It's nothing against FItz. The kid is a stud also. Bucs could do a lot worse than taking him. Ward just projects easier at a more valuable position. Many BB have Ward higher than Fitz so it's not crazy.



Let me ask - how does Ohio States defensive line compare to Iowa's defensive line? Which one helped who the most?
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Re: List your top 5 Positions of need in order

Postby beardmcdoug » Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:34 pm

mdb1958 wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
Yup. Like RBF said 'if a dude can play then he can play'. Ward is an elite athlete at CB. The best skillset to play CB in the NFL imo.

It's nothing against FItz. The kid is a stud also. Bucs could do a lot worse than taking him. Ward just projects easier at a more valuable position. Many BB have Ward higher than Fitz so it's not crazy.



Let me ask - how does Ohio States defensive line compare to Iowa's defensive line? Which one helped who the most?


It’s been twenty fuckin questions with you lately man! It’s always riddle me this riddle me that - Just tell us what’s on your mind dude LOL
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Re: List your top 5 Positions of need in order

Postby Rocker » Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:09 am

The answer is, as it always is, 42.
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Re: List your top 5 Positions of need in order

Postby DreadNaught » Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:30 am

mdb1958 wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
Yup. Like RBF said 'if a dude can play then he can play'. Ward is an elite athlete at CB. The best skillset to play CB in the NFL imo.

It's nothing against FItz. The kid is a stud also. Bucs could do a lot worse than taking him. Ward just projects easier at a more valuable position. Many BB have Ward higher than Fitz so it's not crazy.



Let me ask - how does Ohio States defensive line compare to Iowa's defensive line? Which one helped who the most?


Marshon Lattimore had pretty much that same OSU Dline and won NFL DROY.

Ward is a superior athlete ad prospect to Josh Jackson and thus will be drafted higher.
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Re: List your top 5 Positions of need in order

Postby mdb1958 » Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:36 am

Anyone else wanna give it a try? I bet DN's teachers gave him an A for answering those questions.
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Re: List your top 5 Positions of need in order

Postby Caradoc » Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:18 am

Fitz seems to project as an elite safety-corner hybrid. I’d value that as much as any corner unless you are talking a Revis type shutdown corner. Gives defenses a lot of options and a lot of playmaking opportunities. The way the game has changed really alters the relative value of the safety and corner positions especially for someone who can be a true hybrid.
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Re: List your top 5 Positions of need in order

Postby MJW » Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:13 am

Caradoc wrote:Fitz seems to project as an elite safety-corner hybrid. I’d value that as much as any corner unless you are talking a Revis type shutdown corner. Gives defenses a lot of options and a lot of playmaking opportunities. The way the game has changed really alters the relative value of the safety and corner positions especially for someone who can be a true hybrid.


The most valuable thing any defense can have is a pass rusher who wins consistently.

The next most valuable thing any defense can have is a corner who can shut his guy down.

If a versatile safety was as valuable as a lockdown corner, Honey Badger would still be in Arizona and Peterson would be gone.

Ward has that kind of ability in coverage. Is anyone going to say he's going to be a Hall of Famer like Darrelle Revis five months before his first NFL game? Obviously not. But he's as good a pure corner cover prospect as you're going to get coming into the league. He's not one of these 6'2 dudes who looks like a safety, obviously, like Peterson or Ramsey. But, like, "go cover that guy and don't give him any room to breathe?" He's that guy.

Unless Chubb is there, we'd be fools to pass on a corner like this.
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Re: List your top 5 Positions of need in order

Postby mdb1958 » Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:20 am

So the game becomes 10 on 10 and they abuse the crap out of the other ten Bucs. Then we dump him like Barron and he has a better career elsewhere.
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