Bucs trade for DE Jason Pierre-Paul

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Re: Bucs trade for DE Jason Pierre-Paul

Postby Doctor » Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:22 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
PrimeMinister wrote:This guy is going to completely change our defense.


Yeah well, had GM ham hock drafted better we wouldn't be so desperate to change.

Paying money to good pass rushers is dumb when you can just draft them on cheap rookie contracts.

Oh is that it? Just draft a stud pass rusher? Damn, why hasn't anyone said this before?
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Re: Bucs trade for DE Jason Pierre-Paul

Postby Super K » Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:31 pm

Doctor wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
Yeah well, had GM ham hock drafted better we wouldn't be so desperate to change.

Paying money to good pass rushers is dumb when you can just draft them on cheap rookie contracts.

Oh is that it? Just draft a stud pass rusher? Damn, why hasn't anyone said this before?


Ummmmm....
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Re: Bucs trade for DE Jason Pierre-Paul

Postby BucdUpReality » Wed Mar 28, 2018 6:02 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
PrimeMinister wrote:
It’s reading into public non-action and making up motives. He didn’t just say it’s odd to see no twitter activity, but maybe McCoy has been secretly told he is on the trade block. Boots responded accordingly to that.


Someone gets it. I could understand if he just left it at it's odd McCoy hasn't said anything. Might even agree. But this trade crap is just that.



my apologies, i can understand how you reached your opinion. you're right I could of left it at just it was weird a usually very vocal leader is quiet when you'd expect him

to be loud and joyful relating to the addition. I knew id be working when others would probably post a response and just added that as maybe a reason why.
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Re: Bucs trade for DE Jason Pierre-Paul

Postby MJW » Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:38 pm

Doctor wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
Yeah well, had GM ham hock drafted better we wouldn't be so desperate to change.

Paying money to good pass rushers is dumb when you can just draft them on cheap rookie contracts.

Oh is that it? Just draft a stud pass rusher? Damn, why hasn't anyone said this before?


To be fair, it was strongly implied by all the teams that have been doing so.
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Re: Bucs trade for DE Jason Pierre-Paul

Postby Watchout4Bucs » Thu Mar 29, 2018 12:00 am

I think this pick up was mandatory. There was no way we were going to fix all our holes in the draft. Curry and JPP gives us capable starters going into the draft, but safety, rb, cb, DE depth, OT depth all remain holes in our team. At least we turned a 3rd rounder into a premium DE starter. There isn't a DE in this draft that we out perform JPP this year. 3 years from now I am sure the Chubb or Laundry will be great, but we don't have that time anymore for a DE to develop.
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Re: Bucs trade for DE Jason Pierre-Paul

Postby Buc2 » Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:59 am

Doctor wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
Yeah well, had GM ham hock drafted better we wouldn't be so desperate to change.

Paying money to good pass rushers is dumb when you can just draft them on cheap rookie contracts.

Oh is that it? Just draft a stud pass rusher? Damn, why hasn't anyone said this before?

Pretty sure this was sarcasm aimed at MJW, so settle down.
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Re: Bucs trade for DE Jason Pierre-Paul

Postby VauntedTampa2 » Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:41 am

VauntedTampa2 wrote:
MJW wrote:
By this specious reasoning, we would have been justified in trading our entire draft. Or paying Sam Acho $100 million dollars.

The question isn't whether or not a move improves the team. Almost every move made in March will, or will seem to. The question is return versus opportunity cost. People are saying JPP is worth a high 3rd rounder and $13 Mil+ a year. That's a valid argument that can be had. Simply saying, "Well, anything we did was justified because we had to improve!" is a logical fallacy.


What should the bucs have done, then?

You are GM this off-season, what would you have done?

And the past doesn't matter for this exercise, as time-travel does not exist.
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Re: Bucs trade for DE Jason Pierre-Paul

Postby Doctor » Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:29 pm

I think some people are REALLY underestimating just how good of a pass rusher JPP really is. Especially if this offense can get its head out of its ass and actually put up some points in the first three quarters so we aren't playing catch up all the time in the 4th.
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Re: Bucs trade for DE Jason Pierre-Paul

Postby Deuce » Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:51 pm

Doctor wrote:I think some people are REALLY underestimating just how good of a pass rusher JPP really is. Especially if this offense can get its head out of its ass and actually put up some points in the first three quarters so we aren't playing catch up all the time in the 4th.


I think tempered expectations are good. I'm really happy with the move but last time he had double digit sacks was 2014. I actually think people are underestimating how good he is against the run.

He's a massive upgrade but let's not pencil him in for double digit sacks just yet.
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Re: Bucs trade for DE Jason Pierre-Paul

Postby DreadNaught » Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:53 pm

Deuce wrote:
Doctor wrote:I think some people are REALLY underestimating just how good of a pass rusher JPP really is. Especially if this offense can get its head out of its ass and actually put up some points in the first three quarters so we aren't playing catch up all the time in the 4th.


I think tempered expectations are good. I'm really happy with the move but last time he had double digit sacks was 2014. I actually think people are underestimating how good he is against the run.

He's a massive upgrade but let's not pencil him in for double digit sacks just yet.


We already booked the Super Bowl parade when the trade happened.
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Re: Bucs trade for DE Jason Pierre-Paul

Postby Doctor » Thu Mar 29, 2018 2:16 pm

Deuce wrote:
Doctor wrote:I think some people are REALLY underestimating just how good of a pass rusher JPP really is. Especially if this offense can get its head out of its ass and actually put up some points in the first three quarters so we aren't playing catch up all the time in the 4th.


I think tempered expectations are good. I'm really happy with the move but last time he had double digit sacks was 2014. I actually think people are underestimating how good he is against the run.

He's a massive upgrade but let's not pencil him in for double digit sacks just yet.

I'm not talking about double digit sacks, I'm talking about having a respectable pass rush. The amount of times our DE's got blocked one on one by ****ing TE's is embarrassing.

Image

That's TE Josh Hill blocking out the DE one on one at the top like nothing. This was a TD strike to Ginn.


Image

Again, TE Eric Dickerson blocks out 6'5 267lb Ryan Russell one on one like nothing on the left and Ayers losing his one on one on the right. This is a TD strike to KB from Cam.

And if you are wondering "Well who the **** is Ryan Russell?" you shouldn't be because he started SIX GAMES FOR US. That's how absolutely pathetic our DL was last year. There's a reason we have 3 out of 4 new starters this year. And boy do I hope teams put a TE one on one to cover JPP or Vinny Curry.
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Re: Bucs trade for DE Jason Pierre-Paul

Postby Jason Bourne » Thu Mar 29, 2018 2:35 pm

Doctor wrote:
Deuce wrote:
I think tempered expectations are good. I'm really happy with the move but last time he had double digit sacks was 2014. I actually think people are underestimating how good he is against the run.

He's a massive upgrade but let's not pencil him in for double digit sacks just yet.

I'm not talking about double digit sacks, I'm talking about having a respectable pass rush. The amount of times our DE's got blocked one on one by ****ing TE's is embarrassing.

Image

That's TE Josh Hill blocking out the DE one on one at the top like nothing. This was a TD strike to Ginn.


Image

Again, TE Eric Dickerson blocks out 6'5 267lb Ryan Russell one on one like nothing on the left and Ayers losing his one on one on the right. This is a TD strike to KB from Cam.

And if you are wondering "Well who the **** is Ryan Russell?" you shouldn't be because he started SIX GAMES FOR US. That's how absolutely pathetic our DL was last year. There's a reason we have 3 out of 4 new starters this year. And boy do I hope teams put a TE one on one to cover JPP or Vinny Curry.



great post
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Re: Bucs trade for DE Jason Pierre-Paul

Postby Bootz2004 » Thu Mar 29, 2018 2:47 pm

Deuce wrote:
Doctor wrote:I think some people are REALLY underestimating just how good of a pass rusher JPP really is. Especially if this offense can get its head out of its ass and actually put up some points in the first three quarters so we aren't playing catch up all the time in the 4th.


I think tempered expectations are good. I'm really happy with the move but last time he had double digit sacks was 2014. I actually think people are underestimating how good he is against the run.

He's a massive upgrade but let's not pencil him in for double digit sacks just yet.


I don't care about his individual sack production as much as I do his impact on the pass rush all together. We lost so many close games last season because we couldn't muster up a pass rush late to stop the other team from driving the field and scoring. If JPP or McCoy or Curry get 13 sacks individually and we win 6 games who will give a damn?
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Re: Bucs trade for DE Jason Pierre-Paul

Postby Doctor » Thu Mar 29, 2018 2:57 pm

Jason Bourne wrote:

great post


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Re: Bucs trade for DE Jason Pierre-Paul

Postby Deuce » Thu Mar 29, 2018 2:58 pm

Doctor wrote:
Deuce wrote:
I think tempered expectations are good. I'm really happy with the move but last time he had double digit sacks was 2014. I actually think people are underestimating how good he is against the run.

He's a massive upgrade but let's not pencil him in for double digit sacks just yet.

I'm not talking about double digit sacks, I'm talking about having a respectable pass rush. The amount of times our DE's got blocked one on one by ****ing TE's is embarrassing.

Image

That's TE Josh Hill blocking out the DE one on one at the top like nothing. This was a TD strike to Ginn.


Image

Again, TE Eric Dickerson blocks out 6'5 267lb Ryan Russell one on one like nothing on the left and Ayers losing his one on one on the right. This is a TD strike to KB from Cam.

And if you are wondering "Well who the **** is Ryan Russell?" you shouldn't be because he started SIX GAMES FOR US. That's how absolutely pathetic our DL was last year. There's a reason we have 3 out of 4 new starters this year. And boy do I hope teams put a TE one on one to cover JPP or Vinny Curry.


Heh. I watched that same video. And yes, I was appalled.

What I responded to was this:

Doctor wrote:I think some people are REALLY underestimating just how good of a pass rusher JPP really is. Especially if this offense can get its head out of its ass and actually put up some points in the first three quarters so we aren't playing catch up all the time in the 4th.


Based on what everyone's saying, I'm not sure who is all caps REALLY underestimating him. I can't find QB pressures as a stat but in 2014, he had 12.5 sacks and 21 QB hits. Last year, 8 sacks and 13 QB hits so it's not like he just missed on a bunch.

I can't believe I'm somewhat arguing against JPP. I like him, he's an upgrade. Just saying, we didn't trade for Joey Bosa or DeMarcus Lawrence.
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Re: Bucs trade for DE Jason Pierre-Paul

Postby DreadNaught » Thu Mar 29, 2018 3:53 pm

We have more Dlinemen that can win 1v1's now w/ Curry and JPP. That was a great point and a huge weakness for the defense last season.

The NFL has largely become situational football and in predicable passing situations every NFL team is now rotating in their rush package which often includes a EDGE guy moving inside. We now have that option with Curry kicking inside next to McCoy and Spence and JPP on the edges. 3 of those 4 will be getting a 1v1 in most cases and even if they keep a TE or RB into block there will still be two 1v1's. The odds we get pressure are greatly increase with this cast of characters on the Dline compared to the dogshit we had last season.
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Re: Bucs trade for DE Jason Pierre-Paul

Postby DreadNaught » Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:05 pm

Doctor wrote:Image

Again, TE Eric Dickerson blocks out 6'5 267lb Ryan Russell one on one like nothing on the left


You got the initials correct, but Ed Dickson was a TE for the Panthers. The guy you named was some slappy that played RB. ;)
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Re: Bucs trade for DE Jason Pierre-Paul

Postby Buc2 » Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:10 pm

And in both of those pics, McCoy was doubled teamed. smh
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Re: Bucs trade for DE Jason Pierre-Paul

Postby DreadNaught » Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:27 pm

Hopefully opponents will try and block JPP with a TE 1v1 alot this year.
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Re: Bucs trade for DE Jason Pierre-Paul

Postby GameTime » Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:28 pm

Buc2 wrote:And in both of those pics, McCoy was doubled teamed. smh

The offenses had 6 and 7 blocking 4. Plenty of blame for the back end as well.
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Re: Bucs trade for DE Jason Pierre-Paul

Postby beardmcdoug » Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:46 pm

GameTime wrote:
Buc2 wrote:And in both of those pics, McCoy was doubled teamed. smh

The offenses had 6 and 7 blocking 4. Plenty of blame for the back end as well.


good point. add the QB, and that means somehow we some how couldn't cover 4 wr's and 3 wr's, respectively, with 7 men in coverage
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Re: Bucs trade for DE Jason Pierre-Paul

Postby Caradoc » Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:46 pm

Willie McGinest thinks that with the additions of Curry and JPP, combined with McCoy and our LBs, we might have the best front seven in the league now


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Re: Bucs trade for DE Jason Pierre-Paul

Postby Cheb » Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:01 pm

Caradoc wrote:Willie McGinest thinks that with the additions of Curry and JPP, combined with McCoy and our LBs, we might have the best front seven in the league now




While the sentiment gives me warm fuzzies, that's alot of hype right there.
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Re: Bucs trade for DE Jason Pierre-Paul

Postby uscbucsfan » Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:05 pm

Cheb wrote:
Caradoc wrote:Willie McGinest thinks that with the additions of Curry and JPP, combined with McCoy and our LBs, we might have the best front seven in the league now




While the sentiment gives me warm fuzzies, that's alot of hype right there.

Too bold.
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Re: Bucs trade for DE Jason Pierre-Paul

Postby PrimeMinister » Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:39 pm

Doctor wrote:
Jason Bourne wrote:

great post




I can’t help but notice how badly Justin Evans played both touchdowns. The pass rush was non existent, but Evans failed on both TDs as well.
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Re: Bucs trade for DE Jason Pierre-Paul

Postby Bootz2004 » Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:05 pm

PrimeMinister wrote:
Doctor wrote:


I can’t help but notice how badly Justin Evans played both touchdowns. The pass rush was non existent, but Evans failed on both TDs as well.


It's not at all that simple.

TD 1- Brees play faked to the RB to set up the deep route. Evans had to honor the fake. As soon as he realized it was a run fake, he went to his coverage responsibility. Now with any little bit of pressure, Brees isn't able to survey the field and find Thomas deep down the middle. He not only finds him, but he's able to step up, set his feet, concentrate on his technique and deliver the perfect pass. Earl Thomas doesn't stop that TD. Evans didn't get beat, he had no help from the pass rush.

TD 2- Again, Newton is able to survey the field and deliver the perfect pass. Now consider the factors in play. You have Cam Newton throwing downfield to Kelvin Benjamin against a rookie safety who's 5 inches shorter and 45 pounds lighter. Evans didn't play it poorly, he got boxed out. Ask yourself what you'd expect if Jameis had that kind of time to find Mike Evans down the field against a rookie safety. Or better yet any defender. Think about the TD connection on MNF between 2 defenders.

There's a reason Evans is a safety, just like all safeties are. They aren't supposed to be covering receivers deep 1 on 1 without a pass rush. If he was he'd be a corner.
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Re: Bucs trade for DE Jason Pierre-Paul

Postby PrimeMinister » Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:23 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
PrimeMinister wrote:
I can’t help but notice how badly Justin Evans played both touchdowns. The pass rush was non existent, but Evans failed on both TDs as well.


It's not at all that simple.

TD 1- Brees play faked to the RB to set up the deep route. Evans had to honor the fake. As soon as he realized it was a run fake, he went to his coverage responsibility. Now with any little bit of pressure, Brees isn't able to survey the field and find Thomas deep down the middle. He not only finds him, but he's able to step up, set his feet, concentrate on his technique and deliver the perfect pass. Earl Thomas doesn't stop that TD. Evans didn't get beat, he had no help from the pass rush.

TD 2- Again, Newton is able to survey the field and deliver the perfect pass. Now consider the factors in play. You have Cam Newton throwing downfield to Kelvin Benjamin against a rookie safety who's 5 inches shorter and 45 pounds lighter. Evans didn't play it poorly, he got boxed out. Ask yourself what you'd expect if Jameis had that kind of time to find Mike Evans down the field against a rookie safety. Or better yet any defender. Think about the TD connection on MNF between 2 defenders.

There's a reason Evans is a safety, just like all safeties are. They aren't supposed to be covering receivers deep 1 on 1 without a pass rush. If he was he'd be a corner.


Fair points. The PA on the first pass also got DL as well. A good EDGE doesn’t allow either pass to be completed.
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Re: Bucs trade for DE Jason Pierre-Paul

Postby Caradoc » Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:57 am

While we're being fair to everyone, let's also point out there were a LOT of plays where we would have gotten sacks but the QB had his choice of wide open receivers to throw to and got the ball downfield even when the DL won their battles.

Our defensive failure was a true team effort. Which is why I'm skeptical these signings are going to make a huge difference in our outcome. Statistics? maybe. Outcome? not sold.
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Re: Bucs trade for DE Jason Pierre-Paul

Postby Bootz2004 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 12:02 pm

Caradoc wrote:While we're being fair to everyone, let's also point out there were a LOT of plays where we would have gotten sacks but the QB had his choice of wide open receivers to throw to and got the ball downfield even when the DL won their battles.

Our defensive failure was a true team effort. Which is why I'm skeptical these signings are going to make a huge difference in our outcome. Statistics? maybe. Outcome? not sold.


That's still on the Dline. If they win their battle but don't get home it's irrelevant. If a QB has time to survey the field and fine a guy deep down field it means he had time to let him get there.
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Re: Bucs trade for DE Jason Pierre-Paul

Postby Caradoc » Fri Mar 30, 2018 12:06 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
Caradoc wrote:While we're being fair to everyone, let's also point out there were a LOT of plays where we would have gotten sacks but the QB had his choice of wide open receivers to throw to and got the ball downfield even when the DL won their battles.

Our defensive failure was a true team effort. Which is why I'm skeptical these signings are going to make a huge difference in our outcome. Statistics? maybe. Outcome? not sold.


That's still on the Dline. If they win their battle but don't get home it's irrelevant. If a QB has time to survey the field and fine a guy deep down field it means he had time to let him get there.



If a guy is wide open that isn't on the DL. Tell me again about how the earth is flat.
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