Jay Hayes: FIRED

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Re: Jay Hayes: FIRED

Postby Truck-a-Saurus » Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:00 pm

Outside of the stunting (which was really awful), it's hard to say that any amount of coaching could have overcome the following:

1. Lack of talent/injury - Spence was never 100%, Jaq Smith never came back at all, and Baker was a big fat bust from day one. Gholston was never a pass rushing threat to begin with. The reserves would probably not make the 53 on a single playoff team this year.

2. The utterly ridiculous soft coverage - it's hard to get sacks when opposing QBs can just take 3 step drops and hit their first read crossing uncovered over the middle every time. How often did the defense make it to 3rd down, only for every fan blessed with eyesight to start screaming "DEAR GOD IT'S ONLY 6 YARDS TO GO, WHY IS EVERYONE LINED UP 12 YARDS DEEP!?!?!?"

So, yeah, won't miss the stunts, but I'm not convinced whoever replaces him is going to fix Spence's shoulder, turn Ryan Russell or Will Clarke into actual NFL sack artists, or convince Mike Smith that 'press coverage' isn't some kind of ancient curse that must never be spoken aloud.
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Re: Jay Hayes: FIRED

Postby Sammich » Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:04 pm

It's a bit of a chicken and egg scenario. Did the pass rush suck because we played so much off coverage, or did we play so much off coverage because the pass rush sucked?
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Re: Jay Hayes: FIRED

Postby Caradoc » Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:11 pm

Super K wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:Whatever on this. Another scapegoat. Funny also when you consider many here pegged him as Mike Smith's replacement if he left for a head coaching job last season. Now he's out of a job and people hate Mike Smith.



I agree...

What I see in the tea leaves is One Buc hedging their bets...IF they can't add any "bigtime" difference makers to the pass rush (ie big FA's, top draft pick-chubb) they can put a new DL coach out front and center for us to look at and oooh and awww about...

Then they can roll out the same sorry ass DL claiming that they are talented enough to get it done, they just need the right coaching...



Sadly...I kind of agree with this. Our attitude prior to this move don't indicate any urgency and Monken's 'promotion' already seemed more of a PR move than any actual change. Firing him now, unless there is a real shocker of a staffing move, seems really half-hearted at least.
Last edited by Caradoc on Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jay Hayes FIRED

Postby Caradoc » Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:24 pm

Sammich wrote:It's a bit of a chicken and egg scenario. Did the pass rush suck because we played so much off coverage, or did we play so much off coverage because the pass rush sucked?


It's a tie?

But seriously, I think it was more the coverage sucking so bad it made the (already poor) pass rush look worse. I can think of many time where it looked like we were getting a sack only to the the QB fire it off to a guy who had nobody near him. That kind of coverage that allows a QB to fire at will to his first read dooms a pass rush. OTOH, I don't recall seeing many plays where guys weren't open but the QB had so long that "someone finally got free" - generally, there were guys wide open every play and if the QB held on to it it was to wait for a better play. Does anyone recall thinking "coverage sack" a single time this year?

That's not to say the rush was good. We underachieved at every level. I just think the back end was much worse and much more culpable than the front end.
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Re: Jay Hayes: FIRED

Postby Truck-a-Saurus » Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:41 pm

Sammich wrote:It's a bit of a chicken and egg scenario. Did the pass rush suck because we played so much off coverage, or did we play so much off coverage because the pass rush sucked?


But... if you know your pass rush sucks and is going to need extra time to get to the QB (meaning your only sacks would be 'coverage sacks'), why would you then decide to play softer coverage than usual as a consequence? Tighter coverage at least gives your poor anemic linemen the chance to luck into a sack every once in a while. The only reason to play soft when you don't have a pass rush is because your philosophy is so deeply rooted in "bend but don't break, keep everything in front of you, wait for the other team to make a mistake" that you don't know any other way.

Which unfortunately describes our defensive philosophy perfectly.
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Re: Jay Hayes: FIRED

Postby I Are Serious Poster » Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:11 pm

it's much ado about nothing. What quality of DL coach will take a job with a staff that will begin next season on the hot seat. Maybe the same quality of DL coach as the one he's replacing.
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Re: Jay Hayes: FIRED

Postby Cheb » Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:52 pm

Sammich wrote:It's a bit of a chicken and egg scenario. Did the pass rush suck because we played so much off coverage, or did we play so much off coverage because the pass rush sucked?


Both.
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Re: Jay Hayes: FIRED

Postby Sammich » Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:17 pm

I'm betting we promote Spicer. He is ready and has a history with Mike Smith. He's already in house and would be willing to take the promotion and raise. Even if the staff is on the hot seat it'll still look good on his resume.
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Re: Jay Hayes: FIRED

Postby Selmon Rules » Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:45 pm

Sammich wrote:It's a bit of a chicken and egg scenario. Did the pass rush suck because we played so much off coverage, or did we play so much off coverage because the pass rush sucked?

Yes... It did
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Re: Jay Hayes: FIRED

Postby Doctor » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:54 am

Everything starts with the trenches. This wasn't a Lovie defense getting torched on slants because of off coverage. This was a defense with sloppy safety play and no rush. Asking CBs to bump with no rush and sloppy safeties is literally playing to your weaknesses. Thought giving them VH3 cushion is overcorrecting the other way.
With that said there was a LOT of development this year. Two players in particular, Justin Evans and Ryan Smith are lightyears from where they were at the start of the last season. I still haven't lost hope in VH3 playing outside again. If y'all remember, Barber was a let down his first two years as well. And while you always hope to get more, particularly out of a first rounder, VH3 played much better in the nickle- which is a starting position in todays NFL anyway. If the Cardinals are crazy enough to cut Tyrann Mathieu and we are also able to through money at either Trumaine Johnson, Malcolm Butler, or bring back Brent Grimes, that would be huge. At the end it really all starts up front.

Speaking of up front, this comes far too late to really be much of scapegoat situation. Usually, those come while everything in hot. Things for DK and JL have cooled off since it became clear they weren't going anywhere. I think this might be a genuine move for improvement. Wasn't Sapp also the one saying he had no idea what our DL was trying to do out there? I'd guess they already have the next guy lined up.
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Re: Jay Hayes: FIRED

Postby Buc2 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:45 pm

Since they haven't named a replacement, I think that speaks to the fact they are looking outside of the organization for one. If they were going to use a coach from in-house, I'd think that would have been done already. Too bad DTG doesn't stick around for off-season stuff. I'm sure he's probably heard something from his contacts.
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Re: Jay Hayes: FIRED

Postby PrimeMinister » Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:51 pm

PR is reporting that Paul Spicer is interviewing for the DL coach position
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Re: Jay Hayes: FIRED

Postby Bootz2004 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:07 pm

I see people talking about Paul Spicer a lot. Who is he and what does he have to do with us?
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Re: Jay Hayes: FIRED

Postby NYBF » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:11 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:I see people talking about Paul Spicer a lot. Who is he and what does he have to do with us?


Talk about a casual
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Re: Jay Hayes: FIRED

Postby Buc2 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:48 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:I see people talking about Paul Spicer a lot. Who is he and what does he have to do with us?

Paul Spicer is an assistant defensive line coach for the Tampa Bay Buccaneers of the National Football League. As a player in the NFL, Spicer was a defensive end who spent the majority of his career with the Jacksonville Jaguars. Wikipedia
Born: August 18, 1975 (age 42), Indianapolis, IN
Height: 6′ 4″
Weight: 296 lbs
Spouse: Shariffa Spicer
Movies: The Year of Getting to Know Us
Education: College of DuPage, Saginaw Valley State University
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Re: Jay Hayes: FIRED

Postby Doctor » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:02 pm

NYBF wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:I see people talking about Paul Spicer a lot. Who is he and what does he have to do with us?


Talk about a casual

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Spicer played for Mike Smith when he was DC for the Jaguars. Started 35 games for Smith in Jax. But before you think this is nepotism, Spicer was actually brought on by Cullen under Lovie. He was the only holdover Mike Smith kept from the Lovie staff. A guy who's clearly still trying to make his bones, he would have a great idea of what it is Mike Smith wants from his DL from both perspectives.
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Re: Jay Hayes: FIRED

Postby Bootz2004 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:11 pm

Buc2 wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:I see people talking about Paul Spicer a lot. Who is he and what does he have to do with us?

Paul Spicer is an assistant defensive line coach for the Tampa Bay Buccaneers of the National Football League. As a player in the NFL, Spicer was a defensive end who spent the majority of his career with the Jacksonville Jaguars. Wikipedia
Born: August 18, 1975 (age 42), Indianapolis, IN
Height: 6′ 4″
Weight: 296 lbs
Spouse: Shariffa Spicer
Movies: The Year of Getting to Know Us
Education: College of DuPage, Saginaw Valley State University


Okay cool. Thanks. Why would he be the one who should've gotten fired and not Hayes? He's just an assistant Dline coach.
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Re: Jay Hayes: FIRED

Postby Caradoc » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:51 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:Okay cool. Thanks. Why would he be the one who should've gotten fired and not Hayes? He's just an assistant Dline coach.



Dafuq you talkin' bout' Willis?
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Re: Jay Hayes: FIRED

Postby Bootz2004 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:03 pm

Caradoc wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:Okay cool. Thanks. Why would he be the one who should've gotten fired and not Hayes? He's just an assistant Dline coach.



Dafuq you talkin' bout' Willis?



Sammich wrote:Strange to fire Hayes and not fire Spicer.
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Re: Jay Hayes: FIRED

Postby Teitan » Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:08 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
Caradoc wrote:

Dafuq you talkin' bout' Willis?



Sammich wrote:Strange to fire Hayes and not fire Spicer.


I think his point is why didn’t they fire both if they are revamping the D Line coaching.
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Re: Jay Hayes: FIRED

Postby Caradoc » Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:08 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
Caradoc wrote:

Dafuq you talkin' bout' Willis?



Sammich wrote:Strange to fire Hayes and not fire Spicer.



Ah.

I don't think an "instead of" was implied there, more like an "along with"
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Re: Jay Hayes: FIRED

Postby Sammich » Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:10 pm

Caradoc wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:




Ah.

I don't think an "instead of" was implied there, more like an "along with"


Correct
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Re: Jay Hayes: FIRED

Postby real bucs fan » Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:21 pm

This all seems quite straange, perhaps they got word that Spicer was going to leave to be a DL coach somewhere else and they didn't want to risk losing him?

I don't know much about Spicer as a coach, but as a player he was the type of guy you could see becoming a good coach. Guy was a classic over achiever who knew how to do the little things to get advantages where he could.
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Re: Jay Hayes: FIRED

Postby Caradoc » Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:26 pm

I think it's a combo of making a PR move for annoyed fans who expected some accountability, and handing a favor in the resume department to a longtime friend/employee.

I believe Koetter and Smith know this ride ends in 11 months.
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Re: Jay Hayes: FIRED

Postby PrimeMinister » Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:27 pm

real bucs fan wrote:This all seems quite straange, perhaps they got word that Spicer was going to leave to be a DL coach somewhere else and they didn't want to risk losing him?

I don't know much about Spicer as a coach, but as a player he was the type of guy you could see becoming a good coach. Guy was a classic over achiever who knew how to do the little things to get advantages where he could.


For the love of all things holy I hope this is not the reason. We operated out of the same fear with Raheem and Koetter.
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Re: Jay Hayes: FIRED

Postby Bootz2004 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:06 pm

PrimeMinister wrote:
real bucs fan wrote:This all seems quite straange, perhaps they got word that Spicer was going to leave to be a DL coach somewhere else and they didn't want to risk losing him?

I don't know much about Spicer as a coach, but as a player he was the type of guy you could see becoming a good coach. Guy was a classic over achiever who knew how to do the little things to get advantages where he could.


For the love of all things holy I hope this is not the reason. We operated out of the same fear with Raheem and Koetter.


This. If thats why they let him go that shows me this franchise has learned absolutely nothing.
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Re: Jay Hayes: FIRED

Postby Super K » Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:33 pm

Caradoc wrote:I think it's a combo of making a PR move for annoyed fans who expected some accountability, and handing a favor in the resume department to a longtime friend/employee.

I believe Koetter and Smith know this ride ends in 11 months.


Yep...
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Re: Jay Hayes: FIRED

Postby Buc2 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:18 am

Bootz2004 wrote:
PrimeMinister wrote:
For the love of all things holy I hope this is not the reason. We operated out of the same fear with Raheem and Koetter.


This. If thats why they let him go that shows me this franchise has learned absolutely nothing.

Considering Hayes and Koetter are long time friends dating back to when they played against each other in college, I seriously doubt this is the case. Why would you **** on your personal good friend to help another coaches friend? Answer: You wouldn't.
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Re: Jay Hayes: FIRED

Postby Jason Bourne » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:20 am

Super K wrote:
Caradoc wrote:I think it's a combo of making a PR move for annoyed fans who expected some accountability, and handing a favor in the resume department to a longtime friend/employee.

I believe Koetter and Smith know this ride ends in 11 months.


Yep...


yep, i think that's why Licht is gonna go after Dline real hard this off season.
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Re: Jay Hayes: FIRED

Postby Caradoc » Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:13 pm

Jason Bourne wrote:
Super K wrote:
Yep...


yep, i think that's why Licht is gonna go after Dline real hard this off season.


We need DL help. But if that isn't in the cards, I don't want him to force it. TBH I don't think a better pass rush is going to help this defense all that much. At this point, we are massively underachieving our talent level on both sides of the ball, especially on defense.

Give Koetter and Smith a year and see if they can pull off a miracle. (Realistically, they can't and they are gone at the end of next season, we all know that. We just needed to not fire them after only two years.) So if the DL isn't there, don't screw over the next coach by trading away assets to hand to people who can't use them and won't be around.
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