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A SuperBowl built on Free Agency

PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:59 am
by Doctor
Eagles had 21 players on their team that they drafted. Patriots had even less with 19.

Merely looking over these teams offenses would make a "build through the draft" fanatic's head explode. While we're at it, we had a game with over 1000 yards of offense and a single sack, so tell me about how defense wins championships?

At the end of the day, FA, draft, offense, defense, franchise QB, back up QB, there are clearly many ways to get it done.

Re: A SuperBowl built on Free Agency

PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:06 am
by Cheb
Doctor wrote:Eagles had 21 players on their team that they drafted. Patriots had even less with 19.

Merely looking over these teams offenses would make a "build through the draft" fanatic's head explode. While we're at it, we had a game with over 1000 yards of offense and a single sack, so tell me about how defense wins championships?

At the end of the day, FA, draft, offense, defense, franchise QB, back up QB, there are clearly many ways to get it done.


The game deciding play was that sack-strip. If anything, I think it argues strongly that yes, even in shootouts, defense wins championships.

Re: A SuperBowl built on Free Agency

PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:13 am
by Jason Bourne
Cheb wrote:
Doctor wrote:Eagles had 21 players on their team that they drafted. Patriots had even less with 19.

Merely looking over these teams offenses would make a "build through the draft" fanatic's head explode. While we're at it, we had a game with over 1000 yards of offense and a single sack, so tell me about how defense wins championships?

At the end of the day, FA, draft, offense, defense, franchise QB, back up QB, there are clearly many ways to get it done.


The game deciding play was that sack-strip. If anything, I think it argues strongly that yes, even in shootouts, defense wins championships.


this Defense wins

Re: A SuperBowl built on Free Agency

PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:27 am
by SIBucsFan
They are many ways to built a great team. Ideally you build your team's foundation on drafted players and add in missing pieces via free-agency because of salary cap constraints and familiarity with the organization, building your team as a cohesive unit over multiple seasons, etc. but it doesn't always work that way.

Defense is an increasingly important part of the game. More and more offenses will have the ability to score at-will; it will be the teams that can prevent that from happening in the end that will many times be the deciding factor, like last night.

Re: A SuperBowl built on Free Agency

PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:29 am
by NYBF
Doctor wrote:Eagles had 21 players on their team that they drafted. Patriots had even less with 19.



Any idea how these numbers stack up against the rest of the league?

Re: A SuperBowl built on Free Agency

PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:37 am
by SIBucsFan
NYBF wrote:
Doctor wrote:Eagles had 21 players on their team that they drafted. Patriots had even less with 19.



Any idea how these numbers stack up against the rest of the league?



I'll break down the players that got snaps in Week 17 for Tampa Bay:

Drafted players: 15
Undrafted players: 10
Free-agent acquisitions: 20

Re: A SuperBowl built on Free Agency

PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:42 am
by Super K
SIBucsFan wrote:
NYBF wrote:
Any idea how these numbers stack up against the rest of the league?



I'll break down the players that got snaps in Week 17 for Tampa Bay:

Drafted players: 15
Undrafted players: 10
Free-agent acquisitions: 20


Drafted by us? Or just drafted?...

Because wouldn't undrafted players already be counted in the FA number?

Re: A SuperBowl built on Free Agency

PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:46 am
by Doctor
Cheb wrote:
Doctor wrote:Eagles had 21 players on their team that they drafted. Patriots had even less with 19.

Merely looking over these teams offenses would make a "build through the draft" fanatic's head explode. While we're at it, we had a game with over 1000 yards of offense and a single sack, so tell me about how defense wins championships?

At the end of the day, FA, draft, offense, defense, franchise QB, back up QB, there are clearly many ways to get it done.


The game deciding play was that sack-strip. If anything, I think it argues strongly that yes, even in shootouts, defense wins championships.

By that logic, **** offense and defense- Special Teams win championships. Take a kicker in the first!

Re: A SuperBowl built on Free Agency

PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:19 pm
by Cheb
Doctor wrote:
Cheb wrote:
The game deciding play was that sack-strip. If anything, I think it argues strongly that yes, even in shootouts, defense wins championships.

By that logic, **** offense and defense- Special Teams win championships. Take a kicker in the first!


Your talent for hyperbole is approaching Bootzian levels.

Re: A SuperBowl built on Free Agency

PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:30 pm
by SIBucsFan
Super K wrote:
SIBucsFan wrote:

I'll break down the players that got snaps in Week 17 for Tampa Bay:

Drafted players: 15
Undrafted players: 10
Free-agent acquisitions: 20


Drafted by us? Or just drafted?...

Because wouldn't undrafted players already be counted in the FA number?



Drafted players = drafted by us

Undrafted players = signed directly by us as an undrafted free-agent

Free-agent acquisitions = signed after being with another team at any point before coming to Tampa Bay


I wanted to separate the undrafted players directly signed by us from free-agent acquisitions as those are two distinctly different acquisitions in my opinion.

Re: A SuperBowl built on Free Agency

PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:36 pm
by Super K
SIBucsFan wrote:
Super K wrote:
Drafted by us? Or just drafted?...

Because wouldn't undrafted players already be counted in the FA number?



Drafted players = drafted by us

Undrafted players = signed directly by us as an undrafted free-agent

Free-agent acquisitions = signed after being with another team at any point before coming to Tampa Bay


I wanted to separate the undrafted players directly signed by us from free-agent acquisitions as those are two distinctly different acquisitions in my opinion.


Ok, understood..

Appreciate the clarification...

Re: A SuperBowl built on Free Agency

PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:38 pm
by Bootz2004
Cheb wrote:
Doctor wrote:Eagles had 21 players on their team that they drafted. Patriots had even less with 19.

Merely looking over these teams offenses would make a "build through the draft" fanatic's head explode. While we're at it, we had a game with over 1000 yards of offense and a single sack, so tell me about how defense wins championships?

At the end of the day, FA, draft, offense, defense, franchise QB, back up QB, there are clearly many ways to get it done.


The game deciding play was that sack-strip. If anything, I think it argues strongly that yes, even in shootouts, defense wins championships.


This 100%.

Re: A SuperBowl built on Free Agency

PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:46 pm
by mdb1958
Doctor wrote:Eagles had 21 players on their team that they drafted. Patriots had even less with 19.

Merely looking over these teams offenses would make a "build through the draft" fanatic's head explode. While we're at it, we had a game with over 1000 yards of offense and a single sack, so tell me about how defense wins championships?

At the end of the day, FA, draft, offense, defense, franchise QB, back up QB, there are clearly many ways to get it done.


How many of those free agents were on offense and how many were on defense?

Re: A SuperBowl built on Free Agency

PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:47 pm
by Doctor
Cheb wrote:
Doctor wrote:By that logic, **** offense and defense- Special Teams win championships. Take a kicker in the first!


Your talent for hyperbole is approaching Bootzian levels.

As is your if you are using "well the 'game winning play' was on defense so defense wins champions" after a pathetic defensive showing in a shoot out. Like really? Really? There's a reason the "game winning play" isn't what's used to decide what wins championships, because if you were dumb enough to do that you'd end up with Special Teams.

Re: A SuperBowl built on Free Agency

PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:24 am
by MJW
One play never "wins the game" for a team.

Re: A SuperBowl built on Free Agency

PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:10 am
by ComingThisFall
Eagles were the best in the league at 4th down conversions. I’m going to say coaching and execution were the difference

Re: A SuperBowl built on Free Agency

PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:44 am
by Naismith
ComingThisFall wrote:Eagles were the best in the league at 4th down conversions. I’m going to say coaching and execution were the difference


This is also the sign of a franchise with a strong belief in analytics.

Re: A SuperBowl built on Free Agency

PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:40 pm
by Sammich
Naismith wrote:
ComingThisFall wrote:Eagles were the best in the league at 4th down conversions. I’m going to say coaching and execution were the difference


This is also the sign of a franchise with a strong belief in analytics.


And a good oline.

Re: A SuperBowl built on Free Agency

PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:29 am
by MJW
The weirdest thing about the Eagles is how they were able to run the ball no matter who was in the game. It's almost like if you have a great line, you'll be able to run the ball. Ajayi, Blount, Clement, Smallwood - they were all able to produce.

So, about this idea we should fix our running game by drafting a running back at #7...

Re: A SuperBowl built on Free Agency

PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:21 am
by Buc2
MJW wrote:The weirdest thing about the Eagles is how they were able to run the ball no matter who was in the game. It's almost like if you have a great line, you'll be able to run the ball. Ajayi, Blount, Clement, Smallwood - they were all able to produce.

So, about this idea we should fix our running game by drafting a running back at #7...

You'll get no argument from me. I've been a champion of fixing the OL over drafting a high round RB since before we drafted Winston. I was one that was hoping we'd trade down in the Winston draft and reap picks that could possibly have been used to build up both the OL and the DL. I'd like to see a trade down this draft if it could net a team's 2nd this year and their 1st next year. I get that OL isn't the sexy pick, but I'm damned envious of the teams that have really good OL's. Eagles. Rams. Steelers. Saints (yes...the f'n Saints!). Cowboys. Others??

Re: A SuperBowl built on Free Agency

PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:26 am
by MJW
Buc2 wrote:
MJW wrote:The weirdest thing about the Eagles is how they were able to run the ball no matter who was in the game. It's almost like if you have a great line, you'll be able to run the ball. Ajayi, Blount, Clement, Smallwood - they were all able to produce.

So, about this idea we should fix our running game by drafting a running back at #7...

You'll get no argument from me. I've been a champion of fixing the OL over drafting a high round RB since before we drafted Winston. I was one that was hoping we'd trade down in the Winston draft and reap picks that could possibly have been used to build up both the OL and the DL. I'd like to see a trade down this draft if it could net a team's 2nd this year and their 1st next year. I get that OL isn't the sexy pick, but I'm damned envious of the teams that have really good OL's. Eagles. Rams. Steelers. Saints (yes...the f'n Saints!). Cowboys. Others??


This is why, even though I have (unrelated) misgivings about a guard at #7, I'll be fine with it three seconds after the pick. Gotta build that line!

Re: A SuperBowl built on Free Agency

PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:02 am
by Rocker
There's a reason why "building from the inside out" and "games are won or lost in the trenches" are such cliched sayings.

*Sighs from a three point stance*

Re: A SuperBowl built on Free Agency

PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:03 am
by Sammich
MJW wrote:
Buc2 wrote:You'll get no argument from me. I've been a champion of fixing the OL over drafting a high round RB since before we drafted Winston. I was one that was hoping we'd trade down in the Winston draft and reap picks that could possibly have been used to build up both the OL and the DL. I'd like to see a trade down this draft if it could net a team's 2nd this year and their 1st next year. I get that OL isn't the sexy pick, but I'm damned envious of the teams that have really good OL's. Eagles. Rams. Steelers. Saints (yes...the f'n Saints!). Cowboys. Others??


This is why, even though I have (unrelated) misgivings about a guard at #7, I'll be fine with it three seconds after the pick. Gotta build that line!


Yup. I've said it a million times- if you have a good QB, a good oline, and a good dline you're going to win a lot of games.

Re: A SuperBowl built on Free Agency

PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:48 am
by Doctor
MJW wrote:The weirdest thing about the Eagles is how they were able to run the ball no matter who was in the game. It's almost like if you have a great line, you'll be able to run the ball. Ajayi, Blount, Clement, Smallwood - they were all able to produce.

So, about this idea we should fix our running game by drafting a running back at #7...

I'm all for taking Nelson at 7 over Barkley. But in the event that Nelson and Fitz are gone, Barkley is the next BPA. To deny Barkley 7 just because you build from the inside out is ridiculous.

Re: A SuperBowl built on Free Agency

PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 7:33 am
by MJW
Doctor wrote:
MJW wrote:The weirdest thing about the Eagles is how they were able to run the ball no matter who was in the game. It's almost like if you have a great line, you'll be able to run the ball. Ajayi, Blount, Clement, Smallwood - they were all able to produce.

So, about this idea we should fix our running game by drafting a running back at #7...

I'm all for taking Nelson at 7 over Barkley. But in the event that Nelson and Fitz are gone, Barkley is the next BPA. To deny Barkley 7 just because you build from the inside out is ridiculous.


Please re-visit last year's debate with RBF about the problems with drafting a running back high. I don't feel like re-posting it all.

Re: A SuperBowl built on Free Agency

PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:23 am
by Rocker
Doctor wrote:
MJW wrote:The weirdest thing about the Eagles is how they were able to run the ball no matter who was in the game. It's almost like if you have a great line, you'll be able to run the ball. Ajayi, Blount, Clement, Smallwood - they were all able to produce.

So, about this idea we should fix our running game by drafting a running back at #7...

I'm all for taking Nelson at 7 over Barkley. But in the event that Nelson and Fitz are gone, Barkley is the next BPA. To deny Barkley 7 just because you build from the inside out is ridiculous.


If Barkley is there at seven, I’d trade down.

Not because I hate high picking a RB; but because we ARE that bad in the trenches; and there’s a few guys in the 25-40 range that would do more to improve the team than a running back would.

Look at the playoff teams this year for evidence of what strong line play gets you.

Re: A SuperBowl built on Free Agency

PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:35 am
by Buc2
Rocker wrote:
Doctor wrote:I'm all for taking Nelson at 7 over Barkley. But in the event that Nelson and Fitz are gone, Barkley is the next BPA. To deny Barkley 7 just because you build from the inside out is ridiculous.


If Barkley is there at seven, I’d trade down.

Not because I hate high picking a RB; but because we ARE that bad in the trenches; and there’s a few guys in the 25-40 range that would do more to improve the team than a running back would.

Look at the playoff teams this year for evidence of what strong line play gets you.


DING! DING! DING! We have a winner. Of course, that would obviously depend on what the trade offer was. Imo, anything less than swapping this year's 1st + acquiring their 2nd and their 2018 #1, no deal. Then you take your chances at #7 overall (still not Barkley though) and move on.

Re: A SuperBowl built on Free Agency

PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:17 am
by MJW
Rocker wrote:
Doctor wrote:I'm all for taking Nelson at 7 over Barkley. But in the event that Nelson and Fitz are gone, Barkley is the next BPA. To deny Barkley 7 just because you build from the inside out is ridiculous.


If Barkley is there at seven, I’d trade down.

Not because I hate high picking a RB; but because we ARE that bad in the trenches; and there’s a few guys in the 25-40 range that would do more to improve the team than a running back would.

Look at the playoff teams this year for evidence of what strong line play gets you.


YAS.

Especially in this draft, where there are a bunch of a really good OL prospects who'll go in the mid-late first and early 2nd.

Re: A SuperBowl built on Free Agency

PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:33 am
by Doctor
MJW wrote:
Doctor wrote:I'm all for taking Nelson at 7 over Barkley. But in the event that Nelson and Fitz are gone, Barkley is the next BPA. To deny Barkley 7 just because you build from the inside out is ridiculous.


Please re-visit last year's debate with RBF about the problems with drafting a running back high. I don't feel like re-posting it all.

You were wrong then and you're wrong now.

Rocker wrote:
Doctor wrote:I'm all for taking Nelson at 7 over Barkley. But in the event that Nelson and Fitz are gone, Barkley is the next BPA. To deny Barkley 7 just because you build from the inside out is ridiculous.


If Barkley is there at seven, I’d trade down.

Not because I hate high picking a RB; but because we ARE that bad in the trenches; and there’s a few guys in the 25-40 range that would do more to improve the team than a running back would.

Look at the playoff teams this year for evidence of what strong line play gets you.


Which is great that we pick again before 40 then. And in case you missed it this offense was one dimensional and anaemic all year around. There were undoubtedly better positions that would have helped the Rams, Jaguars and Cowboys more than RB too, but I doubt anyone in either franchise would undo their picks.
Yeah, I'm would be very upset if we Steven Jackson this draft all over again.

Re: A SuperBowl built on Free Agency

PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:12 am
by MJW
Doctor wrote:You were wrong then and you're wrong now.


I'm curious what information emerged in 2017 to attest to my wrongness.