UbuntuBuc wrote:For those thinking that Cam Brate is not important...
I think the Buccaneers will sign Brate to a 2nd round tender.
Caradoc wrote:letting him walk now because we are worried about how he might impact the cap in 3 or 4 years is just stupid. Too much video game GMing, people are outsmarting themselves with this ish.
We can easily afford him for the next two and even three years without having trouble re-signing our other guys and getting FA needs. Three years is an eternity in the NFL.
MikeC wrote:Arent we normally 10 mil under the cap annually anyway?
Bootz2004 wrote:Exactly right Dread. It has nothing to do with Brate's importance. It's keeping things in perspective. Koetter can applaud Howard for being a great blocker all he wants. He and Jason Licht didn't spend a 1st round pick on a TE to block. Brate is the #2 guy and it's not the same at all as a #2 TE. I also saw someone mention New England from a few years ago. Gronk & Hernandez were the focal point of their offense. Ours is not built around the TE position. We also have 2 WRs making 8 figures the next 2 seasons. And a long list of guys needing extensions between now and the end of the 2018 season. Mike Evans, Jameis Winston, Ali Marpet, Donovan Smith, Kwon Alexander. That's a ton of dough that will be wrapped up in those guys, especially the 1st 4. This idea that we can afford Brate until Howard's 4th season isn't realistic. There's no individual position salary cap. A lot of the space we've accumulated over the past few years will start to dissipate soon.
Sammich wrote:Bootz2004 wrote:Exactly right Dread. It has nothing to do with Brate's importance. It's keeping things in perspective. Koetter can applaud Howard for being a great blocker all he wants. He and Jason Licht didn't spend a 1st round pick on a TE to block. Brate is the #2 guy and it's not the same at all as a #2 TE. I also saw someone mention New England from a few years ago. Gronk & Hernandez were the focal point of their offense. Ours is not built around the TE position. We also have 2 WRs making 8 figures the next 2 seasons. And a long list of guys needing extensions between now and the end of the 2018 season. Mike Evans, Jameis Winston, Ali Marpet, Donovan Smith, Kwon Alexander. That's a ton of dough that will be wrapped up in those guys, especially the 1st 4. This idea that we can afford Brate until Howard's 4th season isn't realistic. There's no individual position salary cap. A lot of the space we've accumulated over the past few years will start to dissipate soon.
So front load the contract.
Caradoc wrote:We're closing in on $70 million under the cap. And the cap keeps growing at a ridiculous rate. Not to mention the extensions aren't all at once. Evans is this year, next year is the big one, but 5 million either way isn't going to make a difference. Nor 7. Just stupid to let talented players walk unless you have to. And we don't need to.
Bootz2004 wrote:Caradoc wrote:We're closing in on $70 million under the cap. And the cap keeps growing at a ridiculous rate. Not to mention the extensions aren't all at once. Evans is this year, next year is the big one, but 5 million either way isn't going to make a difference. Nor 7. Just stupid to let talented players walk unless you have to. And we don't need to.
I imagine Licht will try to get as many of these deals done as soon as possible. You don't want a bunch of key guys hitting the FA market at the same time. Jameis, Donovan, Ali and Kwon should be priority over a #2 TE.
Caradoc wrote:Bootz2004 wrote:
I imagine Licht will try to get as many of these deals done as soon as possible. You don't want a bunch of key guys hitting the FA market at the same time. Jameis, Donovan, Ali and Kwon should be priority over a #2 TE.
This isn't an either/or situation. They can ALL be kept and plenty of cash and cap left over.
Bootz2004 wrote:Caradoc wrote:
This isn't an either/or situation. They can ALL be kept and plenty of cash and cap left over.
Yea, if they get re-signed below market value. You really think $70mil is enough to extend a QB1, WR1, LT, C and Mike and a draft pool and have plenty left over?? Close to $40mil alone is going towards Winston & Evans if not more.
Look if we get all those guys under contract somehow and can reach an agreement with Brate then cool. But I wouldn't hold my breath over it nor would I consider it a top priority. The reality is that in the salary cap era everyone can't be kept. It's just that simple.
Super K wrote:Question for you contract/cap gurus (as I am not), the "$70mill under the cap" what players does that include us dumping or not dumping?
Because doesn't Doug Martin have 2 years left on his deal at $6.5 each? If this is counting towards the cap, cut his ass, front load a 4 year $28mill deal to Brate with $12mill guaranteed... essentially making it a 2 year deal..
Then when OJ is due his payday and Auclair has, hopefully, fully advanced/developed we move on...
Caradoc wrote:Bootz2004 wrote:
Yea, if they get re-signed below market value. You really think $70mil is enough to extend a QB1, WR1, LT, C and Mike and a draft pool and have plenty left over?? Close to $40mil alone is going towards Winston & Evans if not more.
Look if we get all those guys under contract somehow and can reach an agreement with Brate then cool. But I wouldn't hold my breath over it nor would I consider it a top priority. The reality is that in the salary cap era everyone can't be kept. It's just that simple.
Yeah, I do. Let's assume your 40 for Winston + Evans is right (it's close). first, they don't happen the same year, only Mike happens this year, along with Brate, and you can easily roll cap. Second, that still leaves 30+ even without cap expansion. Marpet and Smith might - might - cost 15 together. Kwon is 5 or 6.that makes 50, with the cap expanding in that second year by at least 10, so we still end up with 30 loose.
We currently are in the enviable position that we have some apparent studs cheap for a few years, no reason to not take advantage of that. It's not like signing Brate to a reasonable contract is going to screw our cap over or prevent us from re-signing anyone. We can trade or cut anyone.
You just don't cut good players until you need to. And we don't need to cut Brate.
Nor does any of this take into account the future cuts, like the aging DJax.
Bootz2004 wrote:Super K wrote:Question for you contract/cap gurus (as I am not), the "$70mill under the cap" what players does that include us dumping or not dumping?
Because doesn't Doug Martin have 2 years left on his deal at $6.5 each? If this is counting towards the cap, cut his ass, front load a 4 year $28mill deal to Brate with $12mill guaranteed... essentially making it a 2 year deal..
Then when OJ is due his payday and Auclair has, hopefully, fully advanced/developed we move on...
No the current projected cap figure does not factor in players likely to be cut. At the same token it does not factor in the projected rookie draft pool each team must allocate to their draft picks. Currently we are slated to have a draft pool of $8mil. Of course that number could be more or less based on draft trades and such.
To your 2nd point you're talking about giving the money of a starting RB to a backup TE. That's not exactly the most wise way to allocate funds. It's also not exactly a trade off, cut Martin so you can sign Brate. If Martin is cut those funds could go to a number of different areas. Maybe to another starting RB. Maybe to one of these players people want to sign like Ansah or Norwell or Lawrence or Trumaine Johnson or Bennett if he becomes available. Brate doesn't just jump to the front of the line if Martin is cut.
Also from both Brate and The Bucs perspective, what are you trying to accomplish exactly with this deal? Brate's immediate future with this team is back-up to OJ Howard. His long term future is predecessor to Antony Auclair, who's even cheaper for the next 3 years. What good is giving him a 2 year deal from our perspective. And from his why take a 2 year deal where your snaps will continue to decrease? Wouldn't a "top 10" TE want to go somewhere that he can maximize his potential and be the best player he can be on a team that will give him chances to do so? That's not happening here with OJ Howard in the mix. Not happening here when you have Mike Evans and Desean Jackson. Adam Humphries holding down the slot WR spot and Chris Godwin emerging. Not happening when hopefully the run game will be improved and utilized more. If he knows that the team sees no long term value in him then he'd have no reason to just take the money. That is unless you believe he's that type of player.
mdb1958 wrote:Offensive snap pct.
Brate - 53.6%
Howard - 55.6%
Auclair - 15.5%
Cross - 10.9%
Stocker - 10.5%
Looks like TE-1A and TE-1B to me.
Super K wrote:Bootz2004 wrote:
No the current projected cap figure does not factor in players likely to be cut. At the same token it does not factor in the projected rookie draft pool each team must allocate to their draft picks. Currently we are slated to have a draft pool of $8mil. Of course that number could be more or less based on draft trades and such.
To your 2nd point you're talking about giving the money of a starting RB to a backup TE. That's not exactly the most wise way to allocate funds. It's also not exactly a trade off, cut Martin so you can sign Brate. If Martin is cut those funds could go to a number of different areas. Maybe to another starting RB. Maybe to one of these players people want to sign like Ansah or Norwell or Lawrence or Trumaine Johnson or Bennett if he becomes available. Brate doesn't just jump to the front of the line if Martin is cut.
Also from both Brate and The Bucs perspective, what are you trying to accomplish exactly with this deal? Brate's immediate future with this team is back-up to OJ Howard. His long term future is predecessor to Antony Auclair, who's even cheaper for the next 3 years. What good is giving him a 2 year deal from our perspective. And from his why take a 2 year deal where your snaps will continue to decrease? Wouldn't a "top 10" TE want to go somewhere that he can maximize his potential and be the best player he can be on a team that will give him chances to do so? That's not happening here with OJ Howard in the mix. Not happening here when you have Mike Evans and Desean Jackson. Adam Humphries holding down the slot WR spot and Chris Godwin emerging. Not happening when hopefully the run game will be improved and utilized more. If he knows that the team sees no long term value in him then he'd have no reason to just take the money. That is unless you believe he's that type of player.
To play DA, it's only "starting RB money" from our perspective...it's not starting RB money for Tennessee, Buffo, Pittsburgh etc..and it's also not starting RB money for Chicago, KC etc..it's just an allocation of resources...if you take $10mill/year and have to split it amongst OJ, Brate and a RB who cares how it's done as long as it works and fits?
To your point about why we'd offer this kind of contract..many different players/types of players are more successful and valuable to different teams/schemes than others..it's already been pointed out that NE shelled out a ton of cash to 2 TEs when the rest of the league was like "WTF?"...look how much cash Pittsburgh gave to Leveon this year..a damn RB, best in the league or not...how many years did Oakland freakin franchise tag Seabass? A GD kicker?..again organizational value > market value...
As to why Brate would accept..true, he may have a chance to play more and longer somewhere else, but does that contract offer look better? If we offer 4/28/12 guaranteed vs 4/25/10 guaranteed would he take the lesser deal just for some more presumed playing time and snaps? If so that's bad business..
Finally, many folks arguing to let Brate walk also argue for letting DJax stay (which I also agree with)...But with Godwin's emergence doesn't it make the same sense to dump Djax and utilize his contract money elsewhere (after whatever cap hit we incur obviously)...
Bootz2004 wrote:mdb1958 wrote:Offensive snap pct.
Brate - 53.6%
Howard - 55.6%
Auclair - 15.5%
Cross - 10.9%
Stocker - 10.5%
Looks like TE-1A and TE-1B to me.
Did you factor in the fact that despite missing 2 and a half games Howard still had more snaps than Brate did in 16?
mdb1958 wrote:As a matter of fact, I never actually establish himself as the clear cut number one yet. Of course its gonna gotta happen
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