Buccaneers Free Agents

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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby mdb1958 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:06 am

The higher snap count could be will be blocking instead of playmaking. They could stay pretty even with the pass receptions. As you just pointed out players do get banged up.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Deuce » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:21 am

Bootz2004 wrote:
mdb1958 wrote:Offensive snap pct.

Brate - 53.6%

Howard - 55.6%

Auclair - 15.5%

Cross - 10.9%

Stocker - 10.5%


Looks like TE-1A and TE-1B to me.


Did you factor in the fact that despite missing 2 and a half games Howard still had more snaps than Brate did in 16?


I wonder if he factored in the fact that Brate was questionable for weeks 13, 16, and 17, was limited in practice before week 12, and left week 15's game for a while due to injury.

Oh wait...does this not fit the narrative?
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Bootz2004 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:39 am

Deuce wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
Did you factor in the fact that despite missing 2 and a half games Howard still had more snaps than Brate did in 16?


I wonder if he factored in the fact that Brate was questionable for weeks 13, 16, and 17, was limited in practice before week 12, and left week 15's game for a while due to injury.

Oh wait...does this not fit the narrative?


You can deflect all you want. Again, 2 FULL GAMES FEWER and still with more snaps. No way around that. Even when both were healthy, Howard was far and away the lead guy. Let's put this in perspective.

Of the 14 games he did play only once did Howard play fewer as 57% of total snaps and that was the Falcons game that he got injured and subsequently put on I.R. Brate had 10 games where he played fewer than 57% of total snaps. 6 of those games were BEFORE week 12. But go ahead and tell me about my narrative, kiddo.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Bootz2004 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:43 am

mdb1958 wrote:The higher snap count could be will be blocking instead of playmaking. They could stay pretty even with the pass receptions. As you just pointed out players do get banged up.


As the year went on Koetter started incorporating him into the offense more as a pass catcher. Moving forward I'd expect that to increase. Again you don't use a 1st round pick on a TE so he can be a blocker primarily. That's why it's important that whoever is behind him be able to block well. That's why we started activating Auclair and using Cross as well in 12 sets.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Deuce » Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:12 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
Deuce wrote:
I wonder if he factored in the fact that Brate was questionable for weeks 13, 16, and 17, was limited in practice before week 12, and left week 15's game for a while due to injury.

Oh wait...does this not fit the narrative?


You can deflect all you want. Again, 2 FULL GAMES FEWER and still with more snaps. No way around that. Even when both were healthy, Howard was far and away the lead guy. Let's put this in perspective.

Of the 14 games he did play only once did Howard play fewer as 57% of total snaps and that was the Falcons game that he got injured and subsequently put on I.R. Brate had 10 games where he played fewer than 57% of total snaps. 6 of those games were BEFORE week 12. But go ahead and tell me about my narrative, kiddo.


I really don't get what you have against Brate. If I'm not mistaken he was undrafted and came out of nowhere to be a solid contributor for our team. He's still one of Winston's favorite red zone targets, if not his clear cut favorite. Saying Howard was "far and away the lead guy" is flat out wrong when Brate had a lot more targets. I think everyone believes Howard is more talented but they both have a role in this offense.

You should get used to him being a part of this team, at minimum for next season.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby NYBF » Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:37 pm

Deuce wrote:
I really don't get what you have against Brate.


Really?
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Bootz2004 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:44 pm

Deuce wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
You can deflect all you want. Again, 2 FULL GAMES FEWER and still with more snaps. No way around that. Even when both were healthy, Howard was far and away the lead guy. Let's put this in perspective.

Of the 14 games he did play only once did Howard play fewer as 57% of total snaps and that was the Falcons game that he got injured and subsequently put on I.R. Brate had 10 games where he played fewer than 57% of total snaps. 6 of those games were BEFORE week 12. But go ahead and tell me about my narrative, kiddo.


I really don't get what you have against Brate. If I'm not mistaken he was undrafted and came out of nowhere to be a solid contributor for our team. He's still one of Winston's favorite red zone targets, if not his clear cut favorite. Saying Howard was "far and away the lead guy" is flat out wrong when Brate had a lot more targets. I think everyone believes Howard is more talented but they both have a role in this offense.

You should get used to him being a part of this team, at minimum for next season.


I have nothing against Brate. This isn't personal. I'm keeping things in perspective and being realistic. He doesn't have a long term future here. Everyone knows that and they are even admitting as such. That he was undrafted and became a solid contributor is a credit to him. But this FO drafted OJ in the 1st round for a reason.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby IchabodCrane84 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:31 pm

Not that I'm anybody, but from what I've heard the re-signing priority before the start of the season is Mike Evans and then Ali Marpet.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby DreadNaught » Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:45 pm

IchabodCrane84 wrote:Not that I'm anybody, but from what I've heard the re-signing priority before the start of the season is Mike Evans and then Ali Marpet.


As it should be. Followed by Kwon and Donovan Smith.

There is no way the Bucs should let Evans play out the 2018 season on the 5th year option imo since it would give him all the leverage as a pending UFA where he could test the open market next offseason. The only option at that point would be to Franchise Tag him, which only provides a player more leverage in contract negotiations.

I think we can sign Brate, but he's down on the priority list and can be retained with a RFA tender in 2018. The way I see it if the team really wants Brate here on a 2nd contract we'll sign him sometime before October after we secure him with his RFA tender. If no contract extension is reached I think he'll reach free agency next offseason and the Bucs won't get in a bidding war on the open market for a #2 TE when they have OJ Howard.

The Bucs already have the 3rd most money in the NFL tied into the WR position in 2018. Extending Brate would put them in the top 10 for the TE position also.

We'll see. I'm confident that Brate will be a Buc in 2018. But if he doesn't have a contract extension by mid season next year I doubt he's here in 2019.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby DanTurksGhost » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:06 pm

I agree with DN. I think Brate ends up here on a one-year tender. I think the Bucs expect the same. Howard and Auclair are the future for us at TE, at least that's what this regime want (hope) it to be. TBH, I think they're both going to pan out. Brate is terrific in the red zone and has good chemistry with Jameis, but financially the numbers won't work if they can't get him to sign a long-term deal this off-season. And actually, why would he, unless he really wants to be here.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby PrimeMinister » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:28 pm

I haven’t seen anything from Auclair to inspire hope. He is a project.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Bootz2004 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:10 pm

PrimeMinister wrote:I haven’t seen anything from Auclair to inspire hope. He is a project.


As was Brate in 2015 when ASJ got hurt.....
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby MJW » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:50 pm

DanTurksGhost wrote:I agree with DN. I think Brate ends up here on a one-year tender. I think the Bucs expect the same. Howard and Auclair are the future for us at TE, at least that's what this regime want (hope) it to be. TBH, I think they're both going to pan out. Brate is terrific in the red zone and has good chemistry with Jameis, but financially the numbers won't work if they can't get him to sign a long-term deal this off-season. And actually, why would he, unless he really wants to be here.


Yep. This is the most likely scenario. We'll give Brate a 2nd round tender and hope someone bites. If nobody does, he'll play out 2018, leave as an UFA, and be a good factor for us in the comp pick situation going forward.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby mdb1958 » Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:32 am

MJW wrote:
DanTurksGhost wrote:I agree with DN. I think Brate ends up here on a one-year tender. I think the Bucs expect the same. Howard and Auclair are the future for us at TE, at least that's what this regime want (hope) it to be. TBH, I think they're both going to pan out. Brate is terrific in the red zone and has good chemistry with Jameis, but financially the numbers won't work if they can't get him to sign a long-term deal this off-season. And actually, why would he, unless he really wants to be here.


Yep. This is the most likely scenario. We'll give Brate a 2nd round tender and hope someone bites. If nobody does, he'll play out 2018, leave as an UFA, and be a good factor for us in the comp pick situation going forward.


Or, Howard fumbles the ball six times in 2018 and we stand there crying what do we do what do we do.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Super K » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:16 am

We complain about our franchise not developing anyone, yet we are good with losing Brate...our homegrown, UDFA out of freakin HARVARD who has done DAMN well...

We complain about jettisoning talent (Michael Bennett, Donald Penn etc) for no real reason...yet we act like letting Brate walk is just how it goes..

We complain about lack of depth and yet are cool rolling with OJ and Auclair as our TEs in a TE heavy system with a QB who, obviously, loves his TEs (no joke)...


Fun times...
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Deuce » Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:13 am

Super K wrote:We complain about our franchise not developing anyone, yet we are good with losing Brate...our homegrown, UDFA out of freakin HARVARD who has done DAMN well...

We complain about jettisoning talent (Michael Bennett, Donald Penn etc) for no real reason...yet we act like letting Brate walk is just how it goes..

We complain about lack of depth and yet are cool rolling with OJ and Auclair as our TEs in a TE heavy system with a QB who, obviously, loves his TEs (no joke)...


Fun times...


Right? I wanna bet someone about Brate being here in 2019.

Letting Brate walk significantly devalues the Howard pick, imo. If that was the plan, we could've kept Brate and Auclair and used our first round pick on something else.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Super K » Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:45 am

Deuce wrote:
Super K wrote:We complain about our franchise not developing anyone, yet we are good with losing Brate...our homegrown, UDFA out of freakin HARVARD who has done DAMN well...

We complain about jettisoning talent (Michael Bennett, Donald Penn etc) for no real reason...yet we act like letting Brate walk is just how it goes..

We complain about lack of depth and yet are cool rolling with OJ and Auclair as our TEs in a TE heavy system with a QB who, obviously, loves his TEs (no joke)...


Fun times...


Right? I wanna bet someone about Brate being here in 2019.

Letting Brate walk significantly devalues the Howard pick, imo. If that was the plan, we could've kept Brate and Auclair and used our first round pick on something else.


Completely agree...
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby DreadNaught » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:02 am

Super K wrote:We complain about our franchise not developing anyone, yet we are good with losing Brate...our homegrown, UDFA out of freakin HARVARD who has done DAMN well...

We complain about jettisoning talent (Michael Bennett, Donald Penn etc) for no real reason...yet we act like letting Brate walk is just how it goes..

We complain about lack of depth and yet are cool rolling with OJ and Auclair as our TEs in a TE heavy system with a QB who, obviously, loves his TEs (no joke)...


Fun times...


I don't think people are making that argument. It's just a discussion about how big of a priority Brate (our #2 TE) should be.

Brate isn't going anywhere this offseason unless the Bucs decide to take draft pick compensation and not match whatever offer he gets from another team. In which case fans shouldn't be too upset that we got a day 2 pick for our #2 TE that was an UDFA 3 years ago.

Now going into next offseason Brates market value will be be atleast $7m/yr, every other TE in the NFL who makes that much is a TE1 for their team and plays a higher % of the offensive snaps than Brate will since we have OJ. So imo it's a valid discussion to have, whether it makes sense given the other players that need to be re-signed in terms of priority.

I'm all about signing our own and if Brate fits into that I'm all for it. My point has been that Brate is down on the priority list. This isn't the same Bucs as 5-6 years ago when we didn't have any good players deserving 2nd contracts. There is a slew of young guys getting ready for 2nd contracts here (Brate included) and they should be prioritized.

Let's get Evans-Winston-Marpet-Kwon taken care of before giving making our TE2 one of the highest paid at his position is all.
Last edited by DreadNaught on Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby DreadNaught » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:05 am

Super K wrote:
Deuce wrote:
Right? I wanna bet someone about Brate being here in 2019.

Letting Brate walk significantly devalues the Howard pick, imo. If that was the plan, we could've kept Brate and Auclair and used our first round pick on something else.


Completely agree...


Except we drafted Howard before signing Auclair as an UDFA though.

I'm not following how not having Brate "significantly devalues the Howard pick"? Not saying I disagree, I just don't understand the logic behind that statement.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Bootz2004 » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:13 am

Deuce wrote:
Super K wrote:We complain about our franchise not developing anyone, yet we are good with losing Brate...our homegrown, UDFA out of freakin HARVARD who has done DAMN well...

We complain about jettisoning talent (Michael Bennett, Donald Penn etc) for no real reason...yet we act like letting Brate walk is just how it goes..

We complain about lack of depth and yet are cool rolling with OJ and Auclair as our TEs in a TE heavy system with a QB who, obviously, loves his TEs (no joke)...


Fun times...


Right? I wanna bet someone about Brate being here in 2019.

Letting Brate walk significantly devalues the Howard pick, imo. If that was the plan, we could've kept Brate and Auclair and used our first round pick on something else.


Explain please. That stance makes zero sense. ZERO.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Deuce » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:33 am

DreadNaught wrote:
Super K wrote:
Completely agree...


Except we drafted Howard before signing Auclair as an UDFA though.

I'm not following how not having Brate "significantly devalues the Howard pick"? Not saying I disagree, I just don't understand the logic behind that statement.


Let's look at the Saints. They drafted Alvin Kamara and paired him with Mark Ingram. If, this offseason, they release Ingram, then a lesser player has to pick up his work. It brings down the total value. If that was the plan, why not just use Ingram and Travaris Cadet (or whoever they have now) instead of using a high pick on Kamara in order to pair him with Cadet?

Adding a first round talent is great, but when you add a first round talent and subsequently lose a solid player, it brings down the value. Do people not understand that?
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Deuce » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:37 am

DreadNaught wrote:
Super K wrote:
Completely agree...


Except we drafted Howard before signing Auclair as an UDFA though.

I'm not following how not having Brate "significantly devalues the Howard pick"? Not saying I disagree, I just don't understand the logic behind that statement.


And yeah, we got Auclair after Howard but imo, same for whatever blocking TE. If someone is arguing that Auclair makes Brate expendable, that's another story. And they have a lot of convincing to do.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby real bucs fan » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:50 am

I think it depends on what type of offence we want to have. If we want to be a 2-TE passing type of offence, then retaining Brate makes a world of sense. If we want to be a 2-TE run first offence, or a 3 wide offence, then keeping Brate makes less sense.

For the record I want to keep Brate, but overall I think we need to get Godwin more snaps as well as try and shift our offensive identity to a run first team. Losing Brate would certainly not be the end of the world...
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Bootz2004 » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:53 am

Deuce wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
Except we drafted Howard before signing Auclair as an UDFA though.

I'm not following how not having Brate "significantly devalues the Howard pick"? Not saying I disagree, I just don't understand the logic behind that statement.


Let's look at the Saints. They drafted Alvin Kamara and paired him with Mark Ingram. If, this offseason, they release Ingram, then a lesser player has to pick up his work. It brings down the total value. If that was the plan, why not just use Ingram and Travaris Cadet (or whoever they have now) instead of using a high pick on Kamara in order to pair him with Cadet?

Adding a first round talent is great, but when you add a first round talent and subsequently lose a solid player, it brings down the value. Do people not understand that?


You're talking about RBs and TEs but it's actually a great example. And I'll tell you why.

Both Kamara and Ingram have versatility. Both can run the ball, catch, Ingram is good on 3rd down in pass protection, Kamara can play STs. Cutting Ingram would've absolutely hurt Kamara's stock. That we agree on. Kamara isn't forced into running the ball 20 times a game. If he did that then he wouldn't be able to play STs too.

Here's where your example doesn't fit with Howard & Brate. Howard plays Y TE, which is your primary do it all TE. Pass catching, pass protection, run blocking. He lines up inline, can line-up in the slot or outwide even. He's essentially a 6th Olineman at times.

Brate doesn't play Y. He's more of an F TE in that he's a guy who will play mostly slot or on the boundaries. I get where you were coming from but here's where it fails. Like I said if Ingram got cut Kamara would be thrust into Ingram's role. If Brate leaves Howard would still Y TE. He'd have no additional responsibilities as a result of Brate not being here. In fact Brate leaving might actually enhance Howard's production. It wouldn't lessen the value of the pick. He's already surpassed Brate on the depth chart. Kamara is still RB2 in New Orleans.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Bootz2004 » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:56 am

real bucs fan wrote:I think it depends on what type of offence we want to have. If we want to be a 2-TE passing type of offence, then retaining Brate makes a world of sense. If we want to be a 2-TE run first offence, or a 3 wide offence, then keeping Brate makes less sense.

For the record I want to keep Brate, but overall I think we need to get Godwin more snaps as well as try and shift our offensive identity to a run first team. Losing Brate would certainly not be the end of the world...


That's the thing. We aren't much of a passing team out of 12 personnel. We do it here and there but in 12 personnel we mainly run the ball.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Deuce » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:16 am

Bootz2004 wrote:
Deuce wrote:
Let's look at the Saints. They drafted Alvin Kamara and paired him with Mark Ingram. If, this offseason, they release Ingram, then a lesser player has to pick up his work. It brings down the total value. If that was the plan, why not just use Ingram and Travaris Cadet (or whoever they have now) instead of using a high pick on Kamara in order to pair him with Cadet?

Adding a first round talent is great, but when you add a first round talent and subsequently lose a solid player, it brings down the value. Do people not understand that?


You're talking about RBs and TEs but it's actually a great example. And I'll tell you why.

Both Kamara and Ingram have versatility. Both can run the ball, catch, Ingram is good on 3rd down in pass protection, Kamara can play STs. Cutting Ingram would've absolutely hurt Kamara's stock. That we agree on. Kamara isn't forced into running the ball 20 times a game. If he did that then he wouldn't be able to play STs too.

Here's where your example doesn't fit with Howard & Brate. Howard plays Y TE, which is your primary do it all TE. Pass catching, pass protection, run blocking. He lines up inline, can line-up in the slot or outwide even. He's essentially a 6th Olineman at times.

Brate doesn't play Y. He's more of an F TE in that he's a guy who will play mostly slot or on the boundaries. I get where you were coming from but here's where it fails. Like I said if Ingram got cut Kamara would be thrust into Ingram's role. If Brate leaves Howard would still Y TE. He'd have no additional responsibilities as a result of Brate not being here. In fact Brate leaving might actually enhance Howard's production. It wouldn't lessen the value of the pick. He's already surpassed Brate on the depth chart. Kamara is still RB2 in New Orleans.


This is probably one of your best, most level-headed posts and it's great.

Here's where we may disagree. I have no clue if it's right but let's use your terminology.

Which would you rather have?

1. Brate at F TE + Stocker at Y TE + a first round player from last year.

2. Howard at Y TE + draft pick/FA signed this year at F TE.

Personally, I'd choose option 1.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby DanTurksGhost » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:32 am

Gawd. Sometimes I have to shake my head at some of the crap I read. People need to start living in the real world and being more realistic about how this team operates. They drafted Howard for a reason. They made a roster spot for Auclair for a reason. These aren't simply random events. They WANT Howard to be the #1 do-it-all TE. They want Auclair to be that #2 blocking TE. Brate may not even be happy at all in a diminished role, and someone out there is going to pay him more than the Bucs feel he's worth.

Come on people, this is obvious stuff here.

If they can manage to get him into a reasonable long-term deal, fantastic. If not, they'll tender him and he'll play here in 2018 and he'll be gone in 2019, barring an absolute debacle of a season from him. Howard is the guy who is going to get the most touches at TE, and those touches are going to be taken from Brate, not anyone else.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby mdb1958 » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:38 am

DanTurksGhost wrote:Gawd. Sometimes I have to shake my head at some of the crap I read. People need to start living in the real world and being more realistic about how this team operates. They drafted Howard for a reason. They made a roster spot for Auclair for a reason. These aren't simply random events. They WANT Howard to be the #1 do-it-all TE. They want Auclair to be that #2 blocking TE. Brate may not even be happy at all in a diminished role, and someone out there is going to pay him more than the Bucs feel he's worth.

Come on people, this is obvious stuff here.

If they can manage to get him into a reasonable long-term deal, fantastic. If not, they'll tender him and he'll play here in 2018 and he'll be gone in 2019, barring an absolute debacle of a season from him. Howard is the guy who is going to get the most touches at TE, and those touches are going to be taken from Brate, not anyone else.



Just for you

Or, Howard fumbles the ball six times in 2018 and we stand there crying what do we do what do we do.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Bootz2004 » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:39 am

Deuce wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
You're talking about RBs and TEs but it's actually a great example. And I'll tell you why.

Both Kamara and Ingram have versatility. Both can run the ball, catch, Ingram is good on 3rd down in pass protection, Kamara can play STs. Cutting Ingram would've absolutely hurt Kamara's stock. That we agree on. Kamara isn't forced into running the ball 20 times a game. If he did that then he wouldn't be able to play STs too.

Here's where your example doesn't fit with Howard & Brate. Howard plays Y TE, which is your primary do it all TE. Pass catching, pass protection, run blocking. He lines up inline, can line-up in the slot or outwide even. He's essentially a 6th Olineman at times.

Brate doesn't play Y. He's more of an F TE in that he's a guy who will play mostly slot or on the boundaries. I get where you were coming from but here's where it fails. Like I said if Ingram got cut Kamara would be thrust into Ingram's role. If Brate leaves Howard would still Y TE. He'd have no additional responsibilities as a result of Brate not being here. In fact Brate leaving might actually enhance Howard's production. It wouldn't lessen the value of the pick. He's already surpassed Brate on the depth chart. Kamara is still RB2 in New Orleans.


This is probably one of your best, most level-headed posts and it's great.

Here's where we may disagree. I have no clue if it's right but let's use your terminology.

Which would you rather have?

1. Brate at F TE + Stocker at Y TE + a first round player from last year.

2. Howard at Y TE + draft pick/FA signed this year at F TE.

Personally, I'd choose option 1.


Stocker at Y doesn't threaten a defense at all. They don't have to respect his receiving ability because he had none. He was exclusively a blocker in there.

Howard at Y offers great versatility. Defense doesn't know if it's pass, if it's run, if he's staying in to block or if he's running a pattern. As such it helps keep defenses honest. They can't just man up on all of the offensive receivers because they do not know if what the Y is doing.

That's why Howard has had several instances where he's left completely uncovered and we've exploited it for TDs. It leads to miscommunication on defense. Having a guy with Howard's skills opens things up for others as well if the defense does devote a defender to him. If he is able to reach his potential, look out.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby DreadNaught » Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:21 pm

Deuce wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
Except we drafted Howard before signing Auclair as an UDFA though.

I'm not following how not having Brate "significantly devalues the Howard pick"? Not saying I disagree, I just don't understand the logic behind that statement.


Let's look at the Saints. They drafted Alvin Kamara and paired him with Mark Ingram. If, this offseason, they release Ingram, then a lesser player has to pick up his work. It brings down the total value. If that was the plan, why not just use Ingram and Travaris Cadet (or whoever they have now) instead of using a high pick on Kamara in order to pair him with Cadet?

Adding a first round talent is great, but when you add a first round talent and subsequently lose a solid player, it brings down the value. Do people not understand that?


Fair enough, appreciate the explanation. I can see that logic. But I would disagree losing Brate lowers Howards value, I actually think the opposite would be true in that Howard has the size and athleticism to be both the Y (when we are in a single TE formation) in addition to being the F/move TE b/c he's such a good athlete when we go two-TEs. With Brate here Howard will only be a Y (because Brate can't block well), which is fine b/c Howard is good blocker and he + Brate are good duo.

At the end of the day Brate is a #2 TE and is utilized best in that role. So investing resources into the #2 TE spot forces the team to deploy more two-TE formations (or else why invest in you #2 TE?). The Patriots have done that with great success in the past, but nothing indicate the Bucs plan to follow that model and have that personnel grouping such a large % of time.
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