Buccaneers Free Agents

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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Bootz2004 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:24 pm

We put up pretty stats at the TE position. Nice. Helped us get 5 wins.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby DreadNaught » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:53 pm

UbuntuBuc wrote:For those thinking that Cam Brate is not important...

I think the Buccaneers will sign Brate to a 2nd round tender.


I'm not sure people are saying that Brate is not important, or even a productive player. Imo the discussion is around his role as the #2 TE when in comes the decision of what resources the team should invest in an effort to retain him with a potential contract extension vs the value we could potentially get as compensation this offseason.

Again, I'll say that this is more of a relevant topic for next offseason since I don't really think any team will part ways with a draft pick to sign Brate after we place whatever tender (1st, 2nd, 3rd) on him, thus Brate will just sign his tender with the Bucs and play here in 2018 and become an UFA after next season.

If you focus on the stats/production (which Brate's agent certainly will) he'll likely have an open market value around $7m per season.

OJ Howard will have releativley low cap charges for the next 3 seasons (thru 2020) averaging $3m per season before his 5th year option comes into play when that # would atleast double.

So if the Bucs wanted to keep Brate and sign him to a contract extension it would be with the understanding that they are committing approximately $10m to the TE position through 2020 with Brate & Howard. By then whatever guaranteed money in Brate's contract extension would have been paid out and he could be a cap casualty without any dead money penalties, or preferably traded away to an AFC team for some type of draft pick compensation.

I certainly wouldn't be against going down this path as $10m/yr for the next 3 seasons for a TE combo of Howard+Brate certainly isn't unreasonable. But we also have Mike Evans about to be making $15-$17m per season and are on the hook for $11m in 2018 with DJax (2019 also if we don't cut him after next year). So we'd certainly be on the high end of cap % devoted to receiving (WR/TE) targets.
Last edited by DreadNaught on Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Bootz2004 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:03 pm

Exactly right Dread. It has nothing to do with Brate's importance. It's keeping things in perspective. Koetter can applaud Howard for being a great blocker all he wants. He and Jason Licht didn't spend a 1st round pick on a TE to block. Brate is the #2 guy and it's not the same at all as a #2 TE. I also saw someone mention New England from a few years ago. Gronk & Hernandez were the focal point of their offense. Ours is not built around the TE position. We also have 2 WRs making 8 figures the next 2 seasons. And a long list of guys needing extensions between now and the end of the 2018 season. Mike Evans, Jameis Winston, Ali Marpet, Donovan Smith, Kwon Alexander. That's a ton of dough that will be wrapped up in those guys, especially the 1st 4. This idea that we can afford Brate until Howard's 4th season isn't realistic. There's no individual position salary cap. A lot of the space we've accumulated over the past few years will start to dissipate soon.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Caradoc » Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:14 pm

letting him walk now because we are worried about how he might impact the cap in 3 or 4 years is just stupid. Too much video game GMing, people are outsmarting themselves with this ish.

We can easily afford him for the next two and even three years without having trouble re-signing our other guys and getting FA needs. Three years is an eternity in the NFL.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Bootz2004 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:28 pm

Caradoc wrote:letting him walk now because we are worried about how he might impact the cap in 3 or 4 years is just stupid. Too much video game GMing, people are outsmarting themselves with this ish.

We can easily afford him for the next two and even three years without having trouble re-signing our other guys and getting FA needs. Three years is an eternity in the NFL.


It's not in 3-4 years. It's right now into next off-season that we have to take this into consideration. I don't even put OJ Howard into the equation here. Before Brate, we have to take care of long term extensions for all of the players I listed. Those will not come cheap. Plus draft allocations. Plus any other FAs we might look to bring in. Is spending money on a #2 TE that can't block a top priority? Shouldn't be.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby MikeC » Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:26 pm

Arent we normally 10 mil under the cap annually anyway?
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Bootz2004 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:36 pm

MikeC wrote:Arent we normally 10 mil under the cap annually anyway?


Usually but we haven't had many players to pay. As we start hitting on more draft picks, we'll have to start coming out of pocket more. You look at the 2015 and 2017 drafts for us. 4 players in each of those drafts are key pieces for this team now and moving forward. They'll hopefully be rewarded here because of it if they continue playing well and get better.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Stephenip12 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:24 pm

If Brate leaves the team for a bigger contract good for him. I think this team has exhausted enough resources and money to the offensive skill positions. I am liking the future core of Godwin, Evans and Howard
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Sammich » Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:25 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:Exactly right Dread. It has nothing to do with Brate's importance. It's keeping things in perspective. Koetter can applaud Howard for being a great blocker all he wants. He and Jason Licht didn't spend a 1st round pick on a TE to block. Brate is the #2 guy and it's not the same at all as a #2 TE. I also saw someone mention New England from a few years ago. Gronk & Hernandez were the focal point of their offense. Ours is not built around the TE position. We also have 2 WRs making 8 figures the next 2 seasons. And a long list of guys needing extensions between now and the end of the 2018 season. Mike Evans, Jameis Winston, Ali Marpet, Donovan Smith, Kwon Alexander. That's a ton of dough that will be wrapped up in those guys, especially the 1st 4. This idea that we can afford Brate until Howard's 4th season isn't realistic. There's no individual position salary cap. A lot of the space we've accumulated over the past few years will start to dissipate soon.


So front load the contract.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Caradoc » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:13 pm

We're closing in on $70 million under the cap. And the cap keeps growing at a ridiculous rate. Not to mention the extensions aren't all at once. Evans is this year, next year is the big one, but 5 million either way isn't going to make a difference. Nor 7. Just stupid to let talented players walk unless you have to. And we don't need to.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Bootz2004 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:39 pm

Sammich wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:Exactly right Dread. It has nothing to do with Brate's importance. It's keeping things in perspective. Koetter can applaud Howard for being a great blocker all he wants. He and Jason Licht didn't spend a 1st round pick on a TE to block. Brate is the #2 guy and it's not the same at all as a #2 TE. I also saw someone mention New England from a few years ago. Gronk & Hernandez were the focal point of their offense. Ours is not built around the TE position. We also have 2 WRs making 8 figures the next 2 seasons. And a long list of guys needing extensions between now and the end of the 2018 season. Mike Evans, Jameis Winston, Ali Marpet, Donovan Smith, Kwon Alexander. That's a ton of dough that will be wrapped up in those guys, especially the 1st 4. This idea that we can afford Brate until Howard's 4th season isn't realistic. There's no individual position salary cap. A lot of the space we've accumulated over the past few years will start to dissipate soon.


So front load the contract.


That essentially makes him a bandage. At which point what are you trying to accomplish exactly? Holding on to him at any cost just so you can say we kept a great player?
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Bootz2004 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:41 pm

Caradoc wrote:We're closing in on $70 million under the cap. And the cap keeps growing at a ridiculous rate. Not to mention the extensions aren't all at once. Evans is this year, next year is the big one, but 5 million either way isn't going to make a difference. Nor 7. Just stupid to let talented players walk unless you have to. And we don't need to.


I imagine Licht will try to get as many of these deals done as soon as possible. You don't want a bunch of key guys hitting the FA market at the same time. Jameis, Donovan, Ali and Kwon should be priority over a #2 TE.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Caradoc » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:48 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
Caradoc wrote:We're closing in on $70 million under the cap. And the cap keeps growing at a ridiculous rate. Not to mention the extensions aren't all at once. Evans is this year, next year is the big one, but 5 million either way isn't going to make a difference. Nor 7. Just stupid to let talented players walk unless you have to. And we don't need to.


I imagine Licht will try to get as many of these deals done as soon as possible. You don't want a bunch of key guys hitting the FA market at the same time. Jameis, Donovan, Ali and Kwon should be priority over a #2 TE.



This isn't an either/or situation. They can ALL be kept and plenty of cash and cap left over.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Bootz2004 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:53 pm

Caradoc wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
I imagine Licht will try to get as many of these deals done as soon as possible. You don't want a bunch of key guys hitting the FA market at the same time. Jameis, Donovan, Ali and Kwon should be priority over a #2 TE.



This isn't an either/or situation. They can ALL be kept and plenty of cash and cap left over.


Yea, if they get re-signed below market value. You really think $70mil is enough to extend a QB1, WR1, LT, C and Mike and a draft pool and have plenty left over?? Close to $40mil alone is going towards Winston & Evans if not more.

Look if we get all those guys under contract somehow and can reach an agreement with Brate then cool. But I wouldn't hold my breath over it nor would I consider it a top priority. The reality is that in the salary cap era everyone can't be kept. It's just that simple.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Super K » Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:19 pm

Question for you contract/cap gurus (as I am not), the "$70mill under the cap" what players does that include us dumping or not dumping?

Because doesn't Doug Martin have 2 years left on his deal at $6.5 each? If this is counting towards the cap, cut his ass, front load a 4 year $28mill deal to Brate with $12mill guaranteed... essentially making it a 2 year deal..

Then when OJ is due his payday and Auclair has, hopefully, fully advanced/developed we move on...
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Caradoc » Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:47 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
Caradoc wrote:

This isn't an either/or situation. They can ALL be kept and plenty of cash and cap left over.


Yea, if they get re-signed below market value. You really think $70mil is enough to extend a QB1, WR1, LT, C and Mike and a draft pool and have plenty left over?? Close to $40mil alone is going towards Winston & Evans if not more.

Look if we get all those guys under contract somehow and can reach an agreement with Brate then cool. But I wouldn't hold my breath over it nor would I consider it a top priority. The reality is that in the salary cap era everyone can't be kept. It's just that simple.


Yeah, I do. Let's assume your 40 for Winston + Evans is right (it's close). first, they don't happen the same year, only Mike happens this year, along with Brate, and you can easily roll cap. Second, that still leaves 30+ even without cap expansion. Marpet and Smith might - might - cost 15 together. Kwon is 5 or 6.that makes 50, with the cap expanding in that second year by at least 10, so we still end up with 30 loose.

We currently are in the enviable position that we have some apparent studs cheap for a few years, no reason to not take advantage of that. It's not like signing Brate to a reasonable contract is going to screw our cap over or prevent us from re-signing anyone. We can trade or cut anyone.

You just don't cut good players until you need to. And we don't need to cut Brate.

Nor does any of this take into account the future cuts, like the aging DJax.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Bootz2004 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:54 pm

Super K wrote:Question for you contract/cap gurus (as I am not), the "$70mill under the cap" what players does that include us dumping or not dumping?

Because doesn't Doug Martin have 2 years left on his deal at $6.5 each? If this is counting towards the cap, cut his ass, front load a 4 year $28mill deal to Brate with $12mill guaranteed... essentially making it a 2 year deal..

Then when OJ is due his payday and Auclair has, hopefully, fully advanced/developed we move on...


No the current projected cap figure does not factor in players likely to be cut. At the same token it does not factor in the projected rookie draft pool each team must allocate to their draft picks. Currently we are slated to have a draft pool of $8mil. Of course that number could be more or less based on draft trades and such.

To your 2nd point you're talking about giving the money of a starting RB to a backup TE. That's not exactly the most wise way to allocate funds. It's also not exactly a trade off, cut Martin so you can sign Brate. If Martin is cut those funds could go to a number of different areas. Maybe to another starting RB. Maybe to one of these players people want to sign like Ansah or Norwell or Lawrence or Trumaine Johnson or Bennett if he becomes available. Brate doesn't just jump to the front of the line if Martin is cut.

Also from both Brate and The Bucs perspective, what are you trying to accomplish exactly with this deal? Brate's immediate future with this team is back-up to OJ Howard. His long term future is predecessor to Antony Auclair, who's even cheaper for the next 3 years. What good is giving him a 2 year deal from our perspective. And from his why take a 2 year deal where your snaps will continue to decrease? Wouldn't a "top 10" TE want to go somewhere that he can maximize his potential and be the best player he can be on a team that will give him chances to do so? That's not happening here with OJ Howard in the mix. Not happening here when you have Mike Evans and Desean Jackson. Adam Humphries holding down the slot WR spot and Chris Godwin emerging. Not happening when hopefully the run game will be improved and utilized more. If he knows that the team sees no long term value in him then he'd have no reason to just take the money. That is unless you believe he's that type of player.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Bootz2004 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:00 am

Caradoc wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
Yea, if they get re-signed below market value. You really think $70mil is enough to extend a QB1, WR1, LT, C and Mike and a draft pool and have plenty left over?? Close to $40mil alone is going towards Winston & Evans if not more.

Look if we get all those guys under contract somehow and can reach an agreement with Brate then cool. But I wouldn't hold my breath over it nor would I consider it a top priority. The reality is that in the salary cap era everyone can't be kept. It's just that simple.


Yeah, I do. Let's assume your 40 for Winston + Evans is right (it's close). first, they don't happen the same year, only Mike happens this year, along with Brate, and you can easily roll cap. Second, that still leaves 30+ even without cap expansion. Marpet and Smith might - might - cost 15 together. Kwon is 5 or 6.that makes 50, with the cap expanding in that second year by at least 10, so we still end up with 30 loose.

We currently are in the enviable position that we have some apparent studs cheap for a few years, no reason to not take advantage of that. It's not like signing Brate to a reasonable contract is going to screw our cap over or prevent us from re-signing anyone. We can trade or cut anyone.

You just don't cut good players until you need to. And we don't need to cut Brate.

Nor does any of this take into account the future cuts, like the aging DJax.


What year are you living in? If you can find a team with a starting LT, Center and Mike LB all on their 2nd contracts making a combined $21mil APY PLEASE let me know.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby MJW » Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:43 am

I enjoyed all this exact same stuff more when it was discussed to death two or three threads down. I hope every free agency thread turns out like this.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby MikeC » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:34 am

Which answers a question I’ve had for a while. Who was the smartest kid in the Forum Organizational Skillz class?
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Super K » Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:16 am

Bootz2004 wrote:
Super K wrote:Question for you contract/cap gurus (as I am not), the "$70mill under the cap" what players does that include us dumping or not dumping?

Because doesn't Doug Martin have 2 years left on his deal at $6.5 each? If this is counting towards the cap, cut his ass, front load a 4 year $28mill deal to Brate with $12mill guaranteed... essentially making it a 2 year deal..

Then when OJ is due his payday and Auclair has, hopefully, fully advanced/developed we move on...


No the current projected cap figure does not factor in players likely to be cut. At the same token it does not factor in the projected rookie draft pool each team must allocate to their draft picks. Currently we are slated to have a draft pool of $8mil. Of course that number could be more or less based on draft trades and such.

To your 2nd point you're talking about giving the money of a starting RB to a backup TE. That's not exactly the most wise way to allocate funds. It's also not exactly a trade off, cut Martin so you can sign Brate. If Martin is cut those funds could go to a number of different areas. Maybe to another starting RB. Maybe to one of these players people want to sign like Ansah or Norwell or Lawrence or Trumaine Johnson or Bennett if he becomes available. Brate doesn't just jump to the front of the line if Martin is cut.

Also from both Brate and The Bucs perspective, what are you trying to accomplish exactly with this deal? Brate's immediate future with this team is back-up to OJ Howard. His long term future is predecessor to Antony Auclair, who's even cheaper for the next 3 years. What good is giving him a 2 year deal from our perspective. And from his why take a 2 year deal where your snaps will continue to decrease? Wouldn't a "top 10" TE want to go somewhere that he can maximize his potential and be the best player he can be on a team that will give him chances to do so? That's not happening here with OJ Howard in the mix. Not happening here when you have Mike Evans and Desean Jackson. Adam Humphries holding down the slot WR spot and Chris Godwin emerging. Not happening when hopefully the run game will be improved and utilized more. If he knows that the team sees no long term value in him then he'd have no reason to just take the money. That is unless you believe he's that type of player.


To play DA, it's only "starting RB money" from our perspective...it's not starting RB money for Tennessee, Buffo, Pittsburgh etc..and it's also not starting RB money for Chicago, KC etc..it's just an allocation of resources...if you take $10mill/year and have to split it amongst OJ, Brate and a RB who cares how it's done as long as it works and fits?

To your point about why we'd offer this kind of contract..many different players/types of players are more successful and valuable to different teams/schemes than others..it's already been pointed out that NE shelled out a ton of cash to 2 TEs when the rest of the league was like "WTF?"...look how much cash Pittsburgh gave to Leveon this year..a damn RB, best in the league or not...how many years did Oakland freakin franchise tag Seabass? A GD kicker?..again organizational value > market value...

As to why Brate would accept..true, he may have a chance to play more and longer somewhere else, but does that contract offer look better? If we offer 4/28/12 guaranteed vs 4/25/10 guaranteed would he take the lesser deal just for some more presumed playing time and snaps? If so that's bad business..

Finally, many folks arguing to let Brate walk also argue for letting DJax stay (which I also agree with)...But with Godwin's emergence doesn't it make the same sense to dump Djax and utilize his contract money elsewhere (after whatever cap hit we incur obviously)...
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby MikeC » Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:18 am

It does Super K,

And moreso given a few key indicators such as age, salary, production, and our current insistence on multiple TE formations.

If I had any good arguments against Brate at this point would be if Koetter wanted to move away from a heavy bias towards 2 and 3 TE sets.

Otherwise, it almost seems like Russian Roulette to give up a known good for an unknown draft pick or FA that may or may not work out here in Tampa.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Cheb » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:31 am

I keep hearing all of this doomsinging about needing to resign all of our young talent. Let's dive into it, and see how drastic our situation really is.

Mike Evans needs to be resigned after this upcoming season. I think that everyone can agree that he's worth being resigned. His current cap number this year is $13.2 million, seeing as how we picked up his fifth year option on his rookie contract, which is the equivalent amount of money to the transition tag. Let's say that he commands a king's ransom, and we would be forced to match Antonio Brown's average salary per year, which is the highest in the NFL for wide receivers, at $17 million annually. Oh man, that's really cutting into our cap space! But if you think about it, not really. We would only be paying Evans $4 million more per year than we are now. So our current cap space of $61 million would drop down to $57 million. This is a drop in the bucket.

Next we come to Winston. Let's make the easy assumption that we pick up the fifth year of his rookie contract. The amount we'd have to pay to him would be the average of the top 10 QBs in the league, which works out to 21.1 million for his fifth year option. Egads! And yet, because his current cap number is a shade over $8 million, we would actually only have to spend just an increase of $13 million to keep him. And just like the previous discussion with Evans, even in the year after that, if we had to match the highest contract in the NFL (Stafford's $27 million anually), we would only have to increase our spending by an additional $6 million.

To sum up, to keep Evans and Winston, and assuming the worst case scenario that we would have to match not just one of the richest contracts in the NFL, but two of them, we would have to spend $17 million in 2019 , and $23 million in 2020. In 2019, our current projected cap space is $111 million. In 2020, it's $148 million. So by 2020, if we pay these guys as much as the wealthiest men in the NFL for a combined total of $44 million per year for just the two of them (!), we still would have over $104 million in cap space to make all other moves we deem necessary.

---

But Cheb, what about Donovan Smith, Ali Marpet, and Kwon? They will cost us a pretty penny!

Okay, let's again assume that we give these gentlemen handsome extensions, worth the cost of a transition tag, which again is the average of the top 10 salaries at that position in the NFL. The average top 10 left tackle salary is $12 million anually, average top 10 center number is almost $9 million, and top 10 ILB is $8 million. So resigning them all to top 10 contracts would make them cost a combined total of $29 million.

When you add this to the $23 million that we'll have to spend to resign Evans and Winston, that makes for a total of $52 million. And look, we only have $61 million in cap space this year! Everybody panic!

Don't be silly. Those costs are going to be incurred years from now. Remember, we only have to pay Winston and Evans concurrently in their stupid-huge contracts in the 2020 season.

By the time the 2020 season rolls around, DeSean Jackson will not be under contract. Same with Chris Baker. Same with Demar Dotson. Doug Martin will likely be cut in a few months. With just those four players gone alone, we will have saved $26.8 million in costs (10 million for Jackson, 4.8 for Baker, 7 for Doug, and 5 for Dot.) Basically, we can pay to extend Winston and Evans with just the money freed up by guys who aren't going to be getting another contract with us.

But Cheb, it's still so much money! I know that sounds like alot, and it is. And yet, it isn't. We aren't in the 90s anymore. To wit; the league salary cap has increased by about $12 million per year since 2015. In essence, we can pay to lock up D Smith, Marpet, and Kwon under top 10 contracts for just what we will be getting in cap inflation.

---

We can absolutely pay to extend a QB1, WR1, LT, C, and Mike, and not even touch our current cap cushion, at least not in the long term.

But by all means, let's not resign Brate. We can't afford it.
Last edited by Cheb on Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Teitan » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:39 am

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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby mdb1958 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:02 am

Offensive snap pct.

Brate - 53.6%

Howard - 55.6%

Auclair - 15.5%

Cross - 10.9%

Stocker - 10.5%


Looks like TE-1A and TE-1B to me.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Bootz2004 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:04 am

mdb1958 wrote:Offensive snap pct.

Brate - 53.6%

Howard - 55.6%

Auclair - 15.5%

Cross - 10.9%

Stocker - 10.5%


Looks like TE-1A and TE-1B to me.


Did you factor in the fact that despite missing 2 and a half games Howard still had more snaps than Brate did in 16?
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Bootz2004 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:31 am

Super K wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
No the current projected cap figure does not factor in players likely to be cut. At the same token it does not factor in the projected rookie draft pool each team must allocate to their draft picks. Currently we are slated to have a draft pool of $8mil. Of course that number could be more or less based on draft trades and such.

To your 2nd point you're talking about giving the money of a starting RB to a backup TE. That's not exactly the most wise way to allocate funds. It's also not exactly a trade off, cut Martin so you can sign Brate. If Martin is cut those funds could go to a number of different areas. Maybe to another starting RB. Maybe to one of these players people want to sign like Ansah or Norwell or Lawrence or Trumaine Johnson or Bennett if he becomes available. Brate doesn't just jump to the front of the line if Martin is cut.

Also from both Brate and The Bucs perspective, what are you trying to accomplish exactly with this deal? Brate's immediate future with this team is back-up to OJ Howard. His long term future is predecessor to Antony Auclair, who's even cheaper for the next 3 years. What good is giving him a 2 year deal from our perspective. And from his why take a 2 year deal where your snaps will continue to decrease? Wouldn't a "top 10" TE want to go somewhere that he can maximize his potential and be the best player he can be on a team that will give him chances to do so? That's not happening here with OJ Howard in the mix. Not happening here when you have Mike Evans and Desean Jackson. Adam Humphries holding down the slot WR spot and Chris Godwin emerging. Not happening when hopefully the run game will be improved and utilized more. If he knows that the team sees no long term value in him then he'd have no reason to just take the money. That is unless you believe he's that type of player.


To play DA, it's only "starting RB money" from our perspective...it's not starting RB money for Tennessee, Buffo, Pittsburgh etc..and it's also not starting RB money for Chicago, KC etc..it's just an allocation of resources...if you take $10mill/year and have to split it amongst OJ, Brate and a RB who cares how it's done as long as it works and fits?

To your point about why we'd offer this kind of contract..many different players/types of players are more successful and valuable to different teams/schemes than others..it's already been pointed out that NE shelled out a ton of cash to 2 TEs when the rest of the league was like "WTF?"...look how much cash Pittsburgh gave to Leveon this year..a damn RB, best in the league or not...how many years did Oakland freakin franchise tag Seabass? A GD kicker?..again organizational value > market value...

As to why Brate would accept..true, he may have a chance to play more and longer somewhere else, but does that contract offer look better? If we offer 4/28/12 guaranteed vs 4/25/10 guaranteed would he take the lesser deal just for some more presumed playing time and snaps? If so that's bad business..

Finally, many folks arguing to let Brate walk also argue for letting DJax stay (which I also agree with)...But with Godwin's emergence doesn't it make the same sense to dump Djax and utilize his contract money elsewhere (after whatever cap hit we incur obviously)...


Martin's contract was starting RB money here. There's obviously not a specific set value for players contract. However keeping things in perspective, Martin was a top 10 paid player at the RB position.

How those resources are allocated matters as well. Doesn't matter much to the fans but it matters to the market, teams, players etc. You go into the business of paying up top dollar for backup players the rest of the players will notice and their agents will demand otherwise.

And to that point what are the chances of us paying more to keep a backup player with a better player ahead of him? Pride and conventional wisdom would say that. perceived top 10 TE would seek greener pastures as opposed to stick around and play 2nd fiddle. If Brate is a "top 10 TE" why wouldn't he have value on another team? Seems to me he would be able to play anywhere and succeed if he really was a top 10 player.

And your final situation is apples and oranges. 1st of all you're comparing the TE position to the WR position. WRs being your primary pass catchers, you want as many good ones as you can get. TEs its a nice thing to have but for the most part you want those back-up guys to be able to have some versatility. 2nd OJ Howard is head and shoulders way more talented than Cameron Brate. He's more versatile, younger, has a higher ceiling. Theres nothing Cameron Brate can do that OJ Howard can. Chris Godwin on his best day will never be able to do what Desean Jackson can. He won't stretch a defense the way Djax can, Make people miss consistently the way Djax can. They play a different brand of WR. Also Godwin's emergence consists of 1 TD and a 100 yard game. What Godwin will do is run good routes, break some tackles, make plays. Also Djax isn't a FA so why cut him in favor of a guy who's not as talented? Both of those guys will help you out on defense.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby mdb1958 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:42 am

Bootz2004 wrote:
mdb1958 wrote:Offensive snap pct.

Brate - 53.6%

Howard - 55.6%

Auclair - 15.5%

Cross - 10.9%

Stocker - 10.5%


Looks like TE-1A and TE-1B to me.


Did you factor in the fact that despite missing 2 and a half games Howard still had more snaps than Brate did in 16?



No I did not. I didnt even discuss the 8 games where he had 20 yards or less.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby mdb1958 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:52 am

As a matter of fact, I never actually establish himself as the clear cut number one yet. Of course its gonna gotta happen
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Bootz2004 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:56 am

mdb1958 wrote:As a matter of fact, I never actually establish himself as the clear cut number one yet. Of course its gonna gotta happen


You might not have established him as the #1 but Koetter and this staff has. Anytime you play 2 and a half fewer games than a player at the same position and you STILL out snap him on the same, there is no 1a/1b.
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