Buccaneers Free Agents

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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Bootz2004 » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:26 am

Sammich wrote:
MJW wrote:
The fact Alan Cross started getting more work when Stocker left is a pretty clear indication of what OBP thinks about the Howard/Brate combo attack.


Unless they decided they needed both a blocking TE and a fullback with how bad the oline was playing. They may have wanted to run more 2TE but felt they couldn't.


Or that ran the 12 pesonnel how they wanted to primarily: To run the ball. Koetter has never used 12 personnel groupings as the basis of his passing game. I stated as much last year when Howard was the main apple of everyone's eye and all you heard around here was 12 personnel, 12 personnel. I was of course called an idiot and contrarian but as time always does it proved me right. Koetter values versatility. Howard, Cross, Auclair are versatile. Brate not so much.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Buc2 » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:36 am

Bootz2004 wrote:
Sammich wrote:
Unless they decided they needed both a blocking TE and a fullback with how bad the oline was playing. They may have wanted to run more 2TE but felt they couldn't.


Or that ran the 12 pesonnel how they wanted to primarily: To run the ball. Koetter has never used 12 personnel groupings as the basis of his passing game. I stated as much last year when Howard was the main apple of everyone's eye and all you heard around here was 12 personnel, 12 personnel. I was of course called an idiot and contrarian but as time always does it proved me right. Koetter values versatility. Howard, Cross, Auclair are versatile. Brate not so much.

Link?
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Sammich » Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:43 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
Sammich wrote:
Unless they decided they needed both a blocking TE and a fullback with how bad the oline was playing. They may have wanted to run more 2TE but felt they couldn't.


Or that ran the 12 pesonnel how they wanted to primarily: To run the ball. Koetter has never used 12 personnel groupings as the basis of his passing game. I stated as much last year when Howard was the main apple of everyone's eye and all you heard around here was 12 personnel, 12 personnel. I was of course called an idiot and contrarian but as time always does it proved me right. Koetter values versatility. Howard, Cross, Auclair are versatile. Brate not so much.


So then we're back to using our first round pick on a (potentially) slight upgrade at a position that wasn't a problem to start with while ignoring glaring holes at other positions. Exactly what I said when we drafted him.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Caradoc » Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:50 pm

mdb1958 wrote:Brate - one fumble in four years

Howard - three fumbles in 26 receptions


This is lost on people. Howard has looked good but we still don't know for certain how he's going to turn out. People are just assuming greatness. Michael Clayton looked like a future star at one point.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Caradoc » Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:51 pm

Sammich wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
Or that ran the 12 pesonnel how they wanted to primarily: To run the ball. Koetter has never used 12 personnel groupings as the basis of his passing game. I stated as much last year when Howard was the main apple of everyone's eye and all you heard around here was 12 personnel, 12 personnel. I was of course called an idiot and contrarian but as time always does it proved me right. Koetter values versatility. Howard, Cross, Auclair are versatile. Brate not so much.


So then we're back to using our first round pick on a (potentially) slight upgrade at a position that wasn't a problem to start with while ignoring glaring holes at other positions. Exactly what I said when we drafted him.



I hear this year we're gonna draft an elite linebacker.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Super K » Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:10 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
Sammich wrote:
Unless they decided they needed both a blocking TE and a fullback with how bad the oline was playing. They may have wanted to run more 2TE but felt they couldn't.


Or that ran the 12 pesonnel how they wanted to primarily: To run the ball. Koetter has never used 12 personnel groupings as the basis of his passing game. I stated as much last year when Howard was the main apple of everyone's eye and all you heard around here was 12 personnel, 12 personnel. I was of course called an idiot and contrarian but as time always does it proved me right. Koetter values versatility. Howard, Cross, Auclair are versatile. Brate not so much.


Let's not go too far here..

I'll easily give you and agree with EVERYTHING you've said about OJ...

But Cross and Auclair are versatile?..no way..at least no more than Brate is..

Yes, they may block better than Cam, but in no way, shape or form do they catch/run routes as well as he can..

That's the problem I have with this entire situation...everything we are attempting to do/illustrate with OJ/Cross-Auclair looks much better using OJ/Brate...
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby MikeC » Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:58 pm

beardmcdoug wrote:
Cheb wrote:On the subject of Brate, Howard, and tight end usage in our offense, I've done a little research.

Remember when we were expecting a season of heavier use of 12 personnel (1 running back, 2 tight ends, 2 receivers), based on the OJ Howard pick? Lots of articles written, lots of nonsense said, lots of hype in general. Last year, before Howard, we ran with 12 personnel 31% of the time. That percentage should have gone up, right? Apparently wrong. This year, we ran 12 personnel 23% of the time.

You could argue that we were either behind on the scoreboard, or behind in down and distance, so we had to abandon it, but the stats just don't bear that out. When you control for those things, either by quarter or by down-and-distance or by how behind or ahead we are, it doesn't matter. Apparently, all our talk of outfoxing the opposition with crafty 12 personnel usage was hogwash.

If you want to dive into it and have time to spare or waste, I highly recommend https://www.sharpfootballstats.com/personnel-grouping-frequency.html.


I just don't know what to think anymore...


thanks for the research bud


Statistics dont lie. This could also be a sign that Koetter is rethinking the benefit of having 2TE’s as he evolves as a head coach.

My main argument for keeping Brate has been because of the 2 TE setup. If the reality is that we only have one skill position TE and one (or no) blocking TE, then Brate doesn’t make a lot of sense to invest a lot into.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Bootz2004 » Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:52 pm

Sammich wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
Or that ran the 12 pesonnel how they wanted to primarily: To run the ball. Koetter has never used 12 personnel groupings as the basis of his passing game. I stated as much last year when Howard was the main apple of everyone's eye and all you heard around here was 12 personnel, 12 personnel. I was of course called an idiot and contrarian but as time always does it proved me right. Koetter values versatility. Howard, Cross, Auclair are versatile. Brate not so much.


So then we're back to using our first round pick on a (potentially) slight upgrade at a position that wasn't a problem to start with while ignoring glaring holes at other positions. Exactly what I said when we drafted him.


That much is your opinion. But I assume you're only speaking in terms of receiving. In terms of blocking there is no comparison. Howard is head and shoulders better in that department. Brate is barely even tasked with it. He's subbed out quite often. In terms of size, Howard is bigger. Speed, Howard is faster. YAC ability, Howard. Raw skill and talent, Howard again. These are the facts. No one can make you think OJ is anymore than a slight upgrade if you don't want to see it that way.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Bootz2004 » Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:56 pm

Buc2 wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
Or that ran the 12 pesonnel how they wanted to primarily: To run the ball. Koetter has never used 12 personnel groupings as the basis of his passing game. I stated as much last year when Howard was the main apple of everyone's eye and all you heard around here was 12 personnel, 12 personnel. I was of course called an idiot and contrarian but as time always does it proved me right. Koetter values versatility. Howard, Cross, Auclair are versatile. Brate not so much.

Link?


I'm not being an ass when I say this but all of this comes from watching the games. I see personnel groupings, formations, plays run game to game and make note of these things. We truly did not pass a lot out of 12 personnel.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Sammich » Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:24 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
Sammich wrote:
So then we're back to using our first round pick on a (potentially) slight upgrade at a position that wasn't a problem to start with while ignoring glaring holes at other positions. Exactly what I said when we drafted him.


That much is your opinion. But I assume you're only speaking in terms of receiving. In terms of blocking there is no comparison. Howard is head and shoulders better in that department. Brate is barely even tasked with it. He's subbed out quite often. In terms of size, Howard is bigger. Speed, Howard is faster. YAC ability, Howard. Raw skill and talent, Howard again. These are the facts. No one can make you think OJ is anymore than a slight upgrade if you don't want to see it that way.


So then do you believe the difference between Brate and Howard is great enough that the perceived upgrade there improves the team more than just sticking with Brate and adding somebody like Takk, Tre'Davius White, Forrest Lamp, or whoever else we could have taken?
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Bootz2004 » Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:28 pm

Sammich wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
That much is your opinion. But I assume you're only speaking in terms of receiving. In terms of blocking there is no comparison. Howard is head and shoulders better in that department. Brate is barely even tasked with it. He's subbed out quite often. In terms of size, Howard is bigger. Speed, Howard is faster. YAC ability, Howard. Raw skill and talent, Howard again. These are the facts. No one can make you think OJ is anymore than a slight upgrade if you don't want to see it that way.


So then do you believe the difference between Brate and Howard is great enough that the perceived upgrade there improves the team more than just sticking with Brate and adding somebody like Takk, Tre'Davius White, Forrest Lamp, or whoever else we could have taken?


Yes. Easily. And I am one who questions how great Howard will be at the NFL level long term. This has more to do with Brate.I think he's a nice role player but I see his limitations and they are pretty obvious. He can't block. He's not a great standout player. Howard has the talent to be but never put it together at Bama. Brate won't ever be that guy and this idea that he's a top 5 or 10 TE is ridiculous. He won't threaten a defense like Howard can in multiple ways.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Cheb » Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:20 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
Buc2 wrote:Link?


I'm not being an ass when I say this but all of this comes from watching the games. I see personnel groupings, formations, plays run game to game and make note of these things. We truly did not pass a lot out of 12 personnel.


Yeah, that 55:45 run/pass ratio out of 12 personnel is so skewed. You're a ***damn Nostradamus.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Bootz2004 » Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:30 pm

Cheb wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
I'm not being an ass when I say this but all of this comes from watching the games. I see personnel groupings, formations, plays run game to game and make note of these things. We truly did not pass a lot out of 12 personnel.


Yeah, that 55:45 run/pass ratio out of 12 personnel is so skewed. You're a ***damn Nostradamus.


I didn't say anything about the ratio being skewed. I said we ran more than we passed out of 12. Did we not?
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Caradoc » Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:01 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:We truly did not pass a lot out of 12 personnel.


Bootz2004 wrote:
Cheb wrote:
Yeah, that 55:45 run/pass ratio out of 12 personnel is so skewed. You're a ***damn Nostradamus.


I didn't say anything about the ratio being skewed. I said we ran more than we passed out of 12. Did we not?


That's not what you said.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Bootz2004 » Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:08 pm

Caradoc wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:We truly did not pass a lot out of 12 personnel.


Bootz2004 wrote:
I didn't say anything about the ratio being skewed. I said we ran more than we passed out of 12. Did we not?


That's not what you said.


Ha! You've reduced yourself to arguing semantics. What an idiot you are. At least Chub decided to run and hide. You chose to embarass yourself. Oh and here you go.

Bootz2004 wrote:Or that ran the 12 pesonnel how they wanted to primarily: To run the ball. Koetter has never used 12 personnel groupings as the basis of his passing game.


If you're going to tell a story tell the entire story, *****.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Cheb » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:00 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
Caradoc wrote:


That's not what you said.


Ha! You've reduced yourself to arguing semantics. What an idiot you are. At least Chub decided to run and hide. You chose to embarass yourself. Oh and here you go.

Bootz2004 wrote:Or that ran the 12 pesonnel how they wanted to primarily: To run the ball. Koetter has never used 12 personnel groupings as the basis of his passing game.


If you're going to tell a story tell the entire story, *****.


So that's the narrative? Fine.

No one in the NFL uses 12 personnel as the basis of their passing game. No one. Only two teams in the NFL ran more than 100 pass plays from 12 personnel this year, Baltimore and Kansas City. And it was still less than 20% of their passing offense. Yeah, you predicting that Koetter doesn't do what no one does was genius. Maybe you will also predict that he doesn't use a fork to eat soup.

I, for one, bow to your depths of knowledge. How deep is it? Too deep for a pitiful casual like myself.

Again, you spend 98% of your time telling people you are smart, without actually being so.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Bootz2004 » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:18 pm

Cheb wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
Ha! You've reduced yourself to arguing semantics. What an idiot you are. At least Chub decided to run and hide. You chose to embarass yourself. Oh and here you go.



If you're going to tell a story tell the entire story, *****.


So that's the narrative? Fine.

No one in the NFL uses 12 personnel as the basis of their passing game. No one. Only two teams in the NFL ran more than 100 pass plays from 12 personnel this year, Baltimore and Kansas City. And it was still less than 20% of their passing offense. Yeah, you predicting that Koetter doesn't do what no one does was genius. Maybe you will also predict that he doesn't use a fork to eat soup.

I, for one, bow to your depths of knowledge. How deep is it? Too deep for a pitiful casual like myself.

Again, you spend 98% of your time telling people you are smart, without actually being so.


It's interesting you're taking this position only now and not months ago when the majority of this board was going on and on about how vital and important 12 personnel would be to Koetter and our offense while I said it wouldnt. I hope you finally see that you don't know as much as you think you do and that you really need to stop letting me get in your head as much as I am. You rarely make yourself look this petty and desperate.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Four Verticals » Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:43 am

Sammich wrote:
MJW wrote:
The fact Alan Cross started getting more work when Stocker left is a pretty clear indication of what OBP thinks about the Howard/Brate combo attack.


Unless they decided they needed both a blocking TE and a fullback with how bad the oline was playing. They may have wanted to run more 2TE but felt they couldn't.


Seems to be what happened. I think (but don't know for sure) that the H-Back/TE sets were run with Cross and Auclair at the end of the season once Howard went out.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Four Verticals » Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:46 am

Sammich wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
That much is your opinion. But I assume you're only speaking in terms of receiving. In terms of blocking there is no comparison. Howard is head and shoulders better in that department. Brate is barely even tasked with it. He's subbed out quite often. In terms of size, Howard is bigger. Speed, Howard is faster. YAC ability, Howard. Raw skill and talent, Howard again. These are the facts. No one can make you think OJ is anymore than a slight upgrade if you don't want to see it that way.


So then do you believe the difference between Brate and Howard is great enough that the perceived upgrade there improves the team more than just sticking with Brate and adding somebody like Takk, Tre'Davius White, Forrest Lamp, or whoever else we could have taken?


Bootz is a boob but he's right in this situation in terms of what Howard gives the team over Brate assuming you're picking one over the other. Brate is a poor Y and is most effective as flex TE.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Sammich » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:20 am

Four Verticals wrote:
Sammich wrote:
So then do you believe the difference between Brate and Howard is great enough that the perceived upgrade there improves the team more than just sticking with Brate and adding somebody like Takk, Tre'Davius White, Forrest Lamp, or whoever else we could have taken?


Bootz is a boob but he's right in this situation in terms of what Howard gives the team over Brate assuming you're picking one over the other. Brate is a poor Y and is most effective as flex TE.


With respect to both you I completely disagree. I saw a 5-11 team that was 5-11 due in large part to poor guard play and no pass rush. Poor CB play also contributed, but to a lesser extent. There is just no way I'm going to be convinced that taking a TE was the right move with good talent available at those 3 positions and Brate already on the team.

I know this may seem like an odd point to argue now, but I didn't like the pick when we made it. I thought it was a luxury pick we couldn't afford and every time I said as much I got bombarded with "lethal 2TE sets" and "12 personnel!!1!!1". The stats presented in this thread and us likely moving on from Brate just reinforces that I was right all along. So does the 5-11 record....
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Selmon Rules » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:20 am

Could someone please rename this thread "Official TE Discussion Thread"???
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Caradoc » Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:33 pm

Sammich wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
That much is your opinion. But I assume you're only speaking in terms of receiving. In terms of blocking there is no comparison. Howard is head and shoulders better in that department. Brate is barely even tasked with it. He's subbed out quite often. In terms of size, Howard is bigger. Speed, Howard is faster. YAC ability, Howard. Raw skill and talent, Howard again. These are the facts. No one can make you think OJ is anymore than a slight upgrade if you don't want to see it that way.


So then do you believe the difference between Brate and Howard is great enough that the perceived upgrade there improves the team more than just sticking with Brate and adding somebody like Takk, Tre'Davius White, Forrest Lamp, or whoever else we could have taken?


Exactly. You don’t use a first round pick for a minor to moderate upgrade on what is already a solid position when you have so many other holes. BPA s the approach, but you don’t get stupid about it
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Buc2 » Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:40 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:Or that ran the 12 pesonnel how they wanted to primarily: To run the ball. Koetter has never used 12 personnel groupings as the basis of his passing game. I stated as much last year when Howard was the main apple of everyone's eye and all you heard around here was 12 personnel, 12 personnel. I was of course called an idiot and contrarian but as time always does it proved me right. Koetter values versatility. Howard, Cross, Auclair are versatile. Brate not so much.

Buc2 wrote:Link?

Bootz2004 wrote:I'm not being an ass when I say this but all of this comes from watching the games. I see personnel groupings, formations, plays run game to game and make note of these things. We truly did not pass a lot out of 12 personnel.

No, no, no. I wanted a link to the bolded part.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby bearlandbucfan » Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:58 am

Selmon Rules wrote:Could someone please rename this thread "Official TE Discussion Thread"???



That's what I was thinking.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby mdb1958 » Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:18 pm

No it would be the "Official Free Agent TE Discussion Thread"
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby MJW » Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:21 am

Caradoc wrote:
Sammich wrote:
So then do you believe the difference between Brate and Howard is great enough that the perceived upgrade there improves the team more than just sticking with Brate and adding somebody like Takk, Tre'Davius White, Forrest Lamp, or whoever else we could have taken?


Exactly. You don’t use a first round pick for a minor to moderate upgrade on what is already a solid position when you have so many other holes. BPA s the approach, but you don’t get stupid about it


Ya know, it IS completely possible that OBP isn't as in love with Cam Brate as our fanbase is. It could simply be that they want an offense featuring a single three-down tight end and they don't see Brate as that (nor should they.) With the biggest knock on Koetter being that he tends to only do the predictable thing with our personnel groupings, having a guy like Howard who can shred a pass defense OR block an end in the run game makes us a lot less predictable.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Bootz2004 » Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:33 am

I think it's pretty clear that OBP doesn't love Brate as much as fans do. Otherwise you wouldn't spend the 19th overall pick on a TE. And I don't want to hear this crap about BPA or 12 personnel. We didn't use a top 20 pick on a TE to run 12 personnel 20% of the time on offense.
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Caradoc » Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:41 pm

MJW wrote:
Caradoc wrote:
Exactly. You don’t use a first round pick for a minor to moderate upgrade on what is already a solid position when you have so many other holes. BPA s the approach, but you don’t get stupid about it


Ya know, it IS completely possible that OBP isn't as in love with Cam Brate as our fanbase is. It could simply be that they want an offense featuring a single three-down tight end and they don't see Brate as that (nor should they.) With the biggest knock on Koetter being that he tends to only do the predictable thing with our personnel groupings, having a guy like Howard who can shred a pass defense OR block an end in the run game makes us a lot less predictable.


We always talk about playing to your player's strengths, and how bad coaches can't scheme to those strengths. It takes an even worse on to spend a premium pick to change one strength into a different kind of strength. Replacing talent instead of adding to talent is stupid.

Jason: "what do you want to draft this year, Dirk?"
Dirk: "Well, we have a really good flex TE, no pass rush, no running game, and gaping holes in our secondary. Let's spend our first rounder upgrading that TE."
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby Super K » Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:53 pm

That made me belly laugh....
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Re: Buccaneers Free Agents

Postby MJW » Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:01 am

Caradoc wrote:
MJW wrote:
Ya know, it IS completely possible that OBP isn't as in love with Cam Brate as our fanbase is. It could simply be that they want an offense featuring a single three-down tight end and they don't see Brate as that (nor should they.) With the biggest knock on Koetter being that he tends to only do the predictable thing with our personnel groupings, having a guy like Howard who can shred a pass defense OR block an end in the run game makes us a lot less predictable.


We always talk about playing to your player's strengths, and how bad coaches can't scheme to those strengths. It takes an even worse on to spend a premium pick to change one strength into a different kind of strength. Replacing talent instead of adding to talent is stupid.

Jason: "what do you want to draft this year, Dirk?"
Dirk: "Well, we have a really good flex TE, no pass rush, no running game, and gaping holes in our secondary. Let's spend our first rounder upgrading that TE."


FWIW, I don't disagree with you on principle. It's why people saying we should draft a safety at #7 make me itch. I'm just saying that OBP might not be as enamored with Cam Brate as we are. It could also be that Dirk Koetter's vision for the offense involves a 3 down tight end. Or it could be that OBP sees OJ Howard as a Tony Gonzalez type talent and simply couldn't justify passing on him. It's not like anybody remembers who Gonzalez, or Antonio Gates, or Travis Kelce took over for. Nobody cares.
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