***2018 Official NFL Off-Season Thread***

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Re: ***2018 Official NFL Off-Season Thread***

Postby Phantom Phenom » Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:11 am

The Seahawks are signing free-agent signal-caller Stephen Morris,
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Re: ***2018 Official NFL Off-Season Thread***

Postby DreadNaught » Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:22 am

Who Kap may be better than or the NFL allowing other people chances that committed crimes while Kap has not are just strawman arguments based on false equivalencies.

Kap isn't in the NFL because of his own decisions and behavior. He is certainly "good enough" of a player to be on an NFL roster. But Ray Rice was "good enough" also and never got another look. I'm not comparing hitting your fiance to protesting police brutality, but I am making a point that both guys became polarizing to the consumer and despite both being "good enough" to be in the NFL, neither had provided the value/upside to warrant the risk of polarizing your fanbase.

Take this Rueben Foster situation for example. If he was a day 3 pick and some back-up (like say Treyvon Boykin) the 49ers would have already cut him. But b/c he's young and talented player the team will give him a chance until whatever legal action takes place that would force them to release him.

It's just how it is in this country. If you produce and are valuable then you'll likely continue get chances. But when your value doesn't outweigh the headaches that come with you then you get replaced. The truth is that Kap is an easily replaceable commodity as an NFL player. If Aaron Rodgers was kneeling he'd still be the starting QB for the Packers. Or like how Mike Evans could kneel every Sunday and still be the Bucs WR1. So let's drop this false narrative that the only reason he isn't in the NFL is b/c he kneels.

As for this Seattle situation w/ Kap, are they not well within their right as a potential employer to ask what Kap's plans were regarding kneeling/protesting? Especially since there were reports earlier this offseason where Kap stated he would NOT be kneeling if signed. I think that is a totally fair question to ask.

Kap doesn't seem like he wants to play in the NFL and is just making himself a martyr at this point. Seattle is a progressive city, the Seahawks have a progressive owner and they run a franchise that allows their players and coaches to be pretty open about advocacy. But Kap just wants everything to be on his terms or not at all and that isn't how the world works.
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Re: ***2018 Official NFL Off-Season Thread***

Postby Super K » Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:33 am

MJW wrote:
Super K wrote:
Ding ding ding!

And we have a winner...


Yep. Because Aaron Rodgers makes money.

It's a tough life lesson for idealists and children, but:

Value > Deviance From Norm = Genius
Deviance From Norm > Value = Pariah

Especially when your deviance is considered particularly socially unacceptable.

I remember my dad once telling me, "they only started putting up with Rudolph's nose when he could improve their situation."


That is an AWESOME quote/teaching lesson...nobody smarter in the world than a good Dad (I know, I've got one... desperately trying to be one)...
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Re: ***2018 Official NFL Off-Season Thread***

Postby NYBF » Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:46 am

Hatter wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
Get away with what? Kneeling as a protest to police brutality or getting high and beating up your wife?


Get away with what? You know exactly what. You couldn't push that kind of agenda even if you worked at a 7-11.
Just for the record Bootz I think racism in ANY form is horrid, police brutallity in ANY form needs to be checked immediately.
Kneeling during the national anthem is the stupidest thing to push a point I've ever seen. He could have used his "platform" in such a better way while also not offending our armed forces and service members and half the country while trying to accomplish something good. (and destroying his career in the process)


Where do you work that they play the national anthem every day before your shift begins?
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Re: ***2018 Official NFL Off-Season Thread***

Postby NYBF » Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:52 am

DreadNaught wrote:Kap isn't in the NFL because of his own decisions and behavior. He is certainly "good enough" of a player to be on an NFL roster. But Ray Rice was "good enough" also and never got another look.


hmm...

DreadNaught wrote: I'm not comparing hitting your fiance to protesting police brutality,


YOU ARE! RIGHT ****ing HERE:

DreadNaught wrote:Kap isn't in the NFL because of his own decisions and behavior. He is certainly "good enough" of a player to be on an NFL roster. But Ray Rice was "good enough" also and never got another look.


This seems to be your go-to move. You compare two different things, but say you're not comparing them. Are you trying to fool us or yourself?


DreadNaught wrote:Is committing vandalism, B&E, then subsequently evading the police a stupid game?

I'm not saying that this unarmed guy in Sacramento deserved to be shot


:roll:
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Re: ***2018 Official NFL Off-Season Thread***

Postby uscbucsfan » Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:02 am

NYBF wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:Kap isn't in the NFL because of his own decisions and behavior. He is certainly "good enough" of a player to be on an NFL roster. But Ray Rice was "good enough" also and never got another look.


hmm...

DreadNaught wrote: I'm not comparing hitting your fiance to protesting police brutality,


YOU ARE! RIGHT ****ing HERE:

DreadNaught wrote:Kap isn't in the NFL because of his own decisions and behavior. He is certainly "good enough" of a player to be on an NFL roster. But Ray Rice was "good enough" also and never got another look.


This seems to be your go-to move. You compare two different things, but say you're not comparing them. Are you trying to fool us or yourself?


DreadNaught wrote:Is committing vandalism, B&E, then subsequently evading the police a stupid game?

I'm not saying that this unarmed guy in Sacramento deserved to be shot


:roll:

Are you just being a **** for **** sake or are you really lost by the post he made?

He's not comparing protesting to domestic on a moral scale (this is what he meant when he denied the comparison), but he is comparing them on the same scale that NFL owners do. How they impact the perception and league profits in relation to how talented/valuable the player is to the team.

Again, if Kaep was Rodgers, he'd be playing. If so many fans didn't freak out about the protests, he'd be playing. If he wanted to play and wanted to change his approach to the protest, he'd be playing.

The NFL (and all major sports leagues now) have made it very clear on what is acceptable, because the consumer has made it clear what is acceptable. Kaep knows this and is choosing to forgo playing for his cause.

We can debate the merits of being upset about the protest on a fan/citizen level, but the equation to how the owners have made their decision is fairly obvious.
Last edited by uscbucsfan on Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ***2018 Official NFL Off-Season Thread***

Postby terrytate » Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:04 am

Kaep didnt protest police brutality. He crapped on the flag and by extension, the whole country. Maybe you and Kaep see it differently, enough people don't for an owner to worry about it affecting the bottom line and Kaep doesn't do enough on the field to make them take the chance.
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Re: ***2018 Official NFL Off-Season Thread***

Postby NYBF » Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:04 am

uscbucsfan wrote:because the consumer has made it clear what is acceptable


Are you the person who said you have clear evidence that ratings are down because of the protests? If so, this line from you makes sense.
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Re: ***2018 Official NFL Off-Season Thread***

Postby NYBF » Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:05 am

terrytate wrote:Kaep didnt protest police brutality. He crapped on the flag and by extension, the whole country.


:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: ***2018 Official NFL Off-Season Thread***

Postby Bootz2004 » Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:05 am

terrytate wrote:Kaep didnt protest police brutality. He crapped on the flag and by extension, the whole country. Maybe you and Kaep see it differently, enough people don't for an owner to worry about it affecting the bottom line and Kaep doesn't do enough on the field to make them take the chance.


That is your own simple minded, idiotic interpretation of his protest.
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Re: ***2018 Official NFL Off-Season Thread***

Postby uscbucsfan » Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:07 am

NYBF wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:because the consumer has made it clear what is acceptable


Are you the person who said you have clear evidence that ratings are down because of the protests? If so, this line from you makes sense.


What is your angle here? Do you understand your perspective? Why do you think this is happening?

Do you believe people have not actually stopped watching the NFL because of the protest? You deny the numbers, polling, the mass of individuals admitting to doing so?

Please provide some substance instead of deflection. No one knows what your opinion is, just that you don't agree that Kaep isn't good enough (which we agree) and you don't think he's not playing because of the protest? I don't know and it seems you may not know either.
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Re: ***2018 Official NFL Off-Season Thread***

Postby Naismith » Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:42 am

..
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Re: ***2018 Official NFL Off-Season Thread***

Postby beardmcdoug » Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:59 am

MJW wrote:
Super K wrote:
Ding ding ding!

And we have a winner...


Yep. Because Aaron Rodgers makes money.

It's a tough life lesson for idealists and children, but:

Value > Deviance From Norm = Genius
Deviance From Norm > Value = Pariah

Especially when your deviance is considered particularly socially unacceptable.

I remember my dad once telling me, "they only started putting up with Rudolph's nose when he could improve their situation."


great post MJW.

this is all part of what happens when you conduct a protest... there are "consequences" when you speak out against something - where or not it's right or wrong - but its just freaking part of it. it's going to happen. you are bucking the norm. backlash is inevitable. if there wasn't backlash, you wouldn't be protesting anything.

the "consequences" exist on a spectrum; some peoples' protest just earns a few odd looks, and some peoples' gets them killed.

Kaep's is preventing him from getting a job that pays him millions of dollars to throw a football

boo. ****ing. hoo.

protest. own your ****. push through. don't back down. but don't act like the world should bend to your whim and your life should be able to continue on as normal just because you feel righteous about your movement. the world is bigger, more complex than just you and has been around a hell of a lot longer. is anybody preventing Kaepernick from getting a REAL job - one not paying millions to toss a ball? no. so cry me a freaking river. Own your ****, own your impact, and own the fall out. if you need money to eat? go get a different job.
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Re: ***2018 Official NFL Off-Season Thread***

Postby Rocker » Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:03 am

I, for one, am super happy this conversation has been brought back up.
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Re: ***2018 Official NFL Off-Season Thread***

Postby DreadNaught » Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:18 am

NYBF wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:because the consumer has made it clear what is acceptable


Are you the person who said you have clear evidence that ratings are down because of the protests? If so, this line from you makes sense.


Here is a simple Yes/No question and where I believe there may be a fundamental disagreement.

Do you believe that players kneeling for the anthem is good business (financially $$) for the NFL brand?
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Re: ***2018 Official NFL Off-Season Thread***

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:46 am

DreadNaught wrote:
NYBF wrote:
Are you the person who said you have clear evidence that ratings are down because of the protests? If so, this line from you makes sense.


Here is a simple Yes/No question and where I believe there may be a fundamental disagreement.

Do you believe that players kneeling for the anthem is good business (financially $$) for the NFL brand?

Is playing the national anthem at all good business?
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Re: ***2018 Official NFL Off-Season Thread***

Postby Four Verticals » Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:57 am

DreadNaught wrote:As for this Seattle situation w/ Kap, are they not well within their right as a potential employer to ask what Kap's plans were regarding kneeling/protesting? Especially since there were reports earlier this offseason where Kap stated he would NOT be kneeling if signed. I think that is a totally fair question to ask.

Kap doesn't seem like he wants to play in the NFL and is just making himself a martyr at this point. Seattle is a progressive city, the Seahawks have a progressive owner and they run a franchise that allows their players and coaches to be pretty open about advocacy. But Kap just wants everything to be on his terms or not at all and that isn't how the world works.


Further reports are that there may have been other issues with Kap with how committed he was to the game and where his in-season focus would be. This may have certainly included any kneeling issue but, if what further reports suggest are true, it's more detailed than that one issue.

Those suggesting that if Kap was a better player than his more recent play would indicate that a lot of this would be ignored to a certain degree are correct.
Last edited by Four Verticals on Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ***2018 Official NFL Off-Season Thread***

Postby Four Verticals » Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:59 am

Bootz2004 wrote:
terrytate wrote:Kaep didnt protest police brutality. He crapped on the flag and by extension, the whole country. Maybe you and Kaep see it differently, enough people don't for an owner to worry about it affecting the bottom line and Kaep doesn't do enough on the field to make them take the chance.


That is your own simple minded, idiotic interpretation of his protest.


Yes but it appears to be a fairly widespread interpretation.
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Re: ***2018 Official NFL Off-Season Thread***

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:00 am

Four Verticals wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
That is your own simple minded, idiotic interpretation of his protest.


Yes but it appears to be a fairly widespread interpretation.

It was also a widespread interpretation that the Earth was the center of the solar system. That did not make it correct.
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Re: ***2018 Official NFL Off-Season Thread***

Postby DreadNaught » Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:01 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
Here is a simple Yes/No question and where I believe there may be a fundamental disagreement.

Do you believe that players kneeling for the anthem is good business (financially $$) for the NFL brand?

Is playing the national anthem at all good business?

I guess it wasn't so simple. Deflection noted. Maybe your perspective isn't as solid as it could be if all you can do is deflect on simple questions. As I stated, I think there is a fundamental disagreement here and am trying to root it out.

In response to your question; Yes, if not it wouldn't be done. That's how capitalism works. Surely you aren't suggesting Owners would willingly and knowingly lose money just so they can play the Anthem before games.
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Re: ***2018 Official NFL Off-Season Thread***

Postby Four Verticals » Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:02 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
Here is a simple Yes/No question and where I believe there may be a fundamental disagreement.

Do you believe that players kneeling for the anthem is good business (financially $$) for the NFL brand?

Is playing the national anthem at all good business?


The NFL's decision to wrap itself around the flag to some degree has been a partial cause of the situation.
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Re: ***2018 Official NFL Off-Season Thread***

Postby beardmcdoug » Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:05 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
Here is a simple Yes/No question and where I believe there may be a fundamental disagreement.

Do you believe that players kneeling for the anthem is good business (financially $$) for the NFL brand?

Is playing the national anthem at all good business?


Sure, why not? US sports is probably close to a trillion dollar business, the huge stadiums, their presence in our culture - all of that is possible due to the infrastructure and opportunities that this great nation provides. Playing the anthem is no "worse" than a 1 minute advertisement spot saying "brought to you by...." - which every US sporting event is - fundamentally. (fug that was a terrible sentence... who cares)
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Re: ***2018 Official NFL Off-Season Thread***

Postby DreadNaught » Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:12 am

Four Verticals wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:Is playing the national anthem at all good business?


The NFL's decision to wrap itself around the flag to some degree has been a partial cause of the situation.


Poppycock. We've been playing the Anthem in this country before sporting events since WW2.

How is the NFL playing the anthem different from any other sports league in this country? They play the anthem before HS games.
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Re: ***2018 Official NFL Off-Season Thread***

Postby beardmcdoug » Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:13 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Four Verticals wrote:
Yes but it appears to be a fairly widespread interpretation.

It was also a widespread interpretation that the Earth was the center of the solar system. That did not make it correct.


The issue that sparked Kaepernick's protest was police brutality.

He has stated that his protest is based on the fact that he believe, in this country, some people are treated worse than others.

These are HIS words:
"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color"

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000691077/article/colin-kaepernick-explains-why-he-sat-during-national-anthem

He was EXPLICITLY protesting the flag and the country. If it was ONLY about police brutality, and not a broader spectrum, don't you think he would have been very clear to make that distinction? Exactly. He didn't. Because that wasn't the only thing his protest was about. He SPECIFICALLY says there is something categorically wrong with this country - it's overall treatment of people of color - and the flag represents this country, and thus, in his eyes, racism. It is fine for him to believe that. Just like it is fine for people to believe that the flag means more than that. And it is fine for employers to navigate the two sides and make business decisions accordingly.

What is the problem here?
Last edited by beardmcdoug on Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ***2018 Official NFL Off-Season Thread***

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:15 am

DreadNaught wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:Is playing the national anthem at all good business?

I guess it wasn't so simple. Deflection noted. Maybe your perspective isn't as solid as it could be if all you can do is deflect on simple questions. As I stated, I think there is a fundamental disagreement here and am trying to root it out.

In response to your question; Yes, if not it wouldn't be done. That's how capitalism works. Surely you aren't suggesting Owners would willingly and knowingly lose money just so they can play the Anthem before games.

Okay. Since we've decided that the playing of the national anthem before a game is a business decision rather than a solemn reverence for America's greatness, we can do away with the ridiculous notion that not abiding by the requirements of the ritual are some sort of affront to dead troops.
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Re: ***2018 Official NFL Off-Season Thread***

Postby BucaRican » Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:18 am

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Re: ***2018 Official NFL Off-Season Thread***

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:18 am

DreadNaught wrote:
Four Verticals wrote:
The NFL's decision to wrap itself around the flag to some degree has been a partial cause of the situation.


Poppycock. We've been playing the Anthem in this country before sporting events since WW2.

How is the NFL playing the anthem different from any other sports league in this country? They play the anthem before HS games.

And NFL players didn't start standing out front for the Anthem until 2009.
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Re: ***2018 Official NFL Off-Season Thread***

Postby beardmcdoug » Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:19 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:I guess it wasn't so simple. Deflection noted. Maybe your perspective isn't as solid as it could be if all you can do is deflect on simple questions. As I stated, I think there is a fundamental disagreement here and am trying to root it out.

In response to your question; Yes, if not it wouldn't be done. That's how capitalism works. Surely you aren't suggesting Owners would willingly and knowingly lose money just so they can play the Anthem before games.

Okay. Since we've decided that the playing of the national anthem before a game is a business decision rather than a solemn reverence for America's greatness, we can do away with the ridiculous notion that not abiding by the requirements of the ritual are some sort of affront to dead troops.


Our country's whole presence in global affairs / wars / geopolitics boils down to "business decisions" - business decisions that have provided the type of lifestyle we all enjoy - a lifestyle and the accompanying ideology, which people have fought and died for. You respect the sacrifice made on behalf of the collective business decisions that have yielded the lifestyles and opportunities that close to 350 million people enjoy.
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Re: ***2018 Official NFL Off-Season Thread***

Postby Phantom Phenom » Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:31 am

Cowboys expected to release WR Dez Bryant
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Re: ***2018 Official NFL Off-Season Thread***

Postby BucaRican » Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:33 am

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