***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!***

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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby beardmcdoug » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:01 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
beardmcdoug wrote:
... that he caught 55% of his targets?

You're right numbers aren't everything, but I'm using numbers to back up my observations, which is why I specifically said, "the eyeball test says he doesn't do these things (the sort of things that take him to the next level), and the stats back it up"


Yes, the same percentage that Deandre Hopkins caught this season.


should tell you, numbers aren't everything, *****
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Bootz2004 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:06 pm

beardmcdoug wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
Yes, the same percentage that Deandre Hopkins caught this season.


should tell you, numbers aren't everything, *****


Right! Thanks for rendering your own posts about YAC and YPT useless & null and void, buddy.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby beardmcdoug » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:08 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
beardmcdoug wrote:
should tell you, numbers aren't everything, k!ddo


Right! Thanks for rendering your own posts about YAC and YPT useless & null and void, buddy.

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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby NYBF » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:10 pm

What do YPT and YPC have to do with YAC?
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Bootz2004 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:14 pm

NYBF wrote:What do YPT and YPC have to do with YAC?


This isn't a football lesson. If you don't already know, look it up and come back later, buddy.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby NYBF » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:17 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
NYBF wrote:What do YPT and YPC have to do with YAC?


This isn't a football lesson. If you don't already know, look it up and come back later, buddy.


It's a math lesson.

YPT = receiving yards / targets
YPC = receiving yards / catches

When looking at those numbers, you cannot tell anything about YAC.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby DreadNaught » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:18 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
The FT value for the WR position is $15.7m. Which is an increase of $1.1m from the year prior ($14.6m). So let's assume it WR FT value will be around $17m next year when Evans could hypothetically be tagged. A 120% from the previous year if we tag him again for the 2020 season would be $20.4m.

2018 - $13.2m (5th year option)
2019 - $17m (FT)
2020 - $20.4m (FT)

That is what his contracts would be (fully guaranteed) for the next 3 years with no long term commitment from the Bucs and Evans basically on a year to year deal. Assuming no long term deal is reached Evans could then leave and test FA and enter the 2021 season at 28years old.

I would prefer not to go down this path with Evans, but this idea it would be cheaper to pay him $18m APY is one I'm not understanding. Certainly not in the short term. Maybe long term that is the case when Evans is closer to 30yrs old and the team has him locked into a lower #. But we all know those non-guaranteed years in NFL contract aren't worth the paper they are written on.

I just want Evans to show he's the best WR in the NFL, or atleast on par with those guys before paying him like he is. I just don't think he's done that yet is all.


That's in no way cheaper than paying him the $18mil APY after this season. The 2019 & 2020 FA tags average out to $18.7mil APY. And honestly your estimate is on the low end. Those numbers likely will be higher as guys like Watkins and Beckham and Landry sign deals and guys like Green Julio sign extensions. Projecting the franchise tag that far is always wrong.


The FT value is the average of the 5 highest contracts at the position the previous year. I don't see Watkins or Landry getting more than the $14.25m APY Julio has currently (5th highest WR contract). There is also not guarantee OBJ signs his deal before next offseason when the FT values are determined.

So we're talking a difference of $700k here between 18 and 18.7. I never said it would be cheaper, just stated that giving him 'highest paid WR $' wouldn't be much of difference cost wise than tagging him b2b years if god forbid we had to go down that road.

Tagging him would force him to be the player he wants to be paid like. I realize a contingent already feels that Evans is that guy, but I think he's a just a notch below hence my position in this discussion.

Evans hasn't performed like the 2nd best WR in the NFL so accepting a contract to get paid like it just months after AB and Hopkins got theirs isn't low-balling himself imo.

If he wants to bet on himself the risks associated with not taking the longterm security than I get that also. I hope he goes out there and has great season next year and gets his money. I just don't think Mike Evans warrants being paid as the top WR in the NFL right now when two other guys just signed there deals that have been better in every way. I agree the landscape will be different next offseason.
Last edited by DreadNaught on Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby DreadNaught » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:21 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
beardmcdoug wrote:
... that he caught 55% of his targets?

You're right numbers aren't everything, but I'm using numbers to back up my observations, which is why I specifically said, "the eyeball test says he doesn't do these things (the sort of things that take him to the next level), and the stats back it up"


Yes, the same percentage that Deandre Hopkins caught this season.


Both played in 15 games, one had 1378 yards-13TDs, the other has 1001yds-5TDs. This isn't a road you want to go down. Hopkins has had better catch rate despite far worse QBs throwing it to him.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby NYBF » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:23 pm

Player A: 13.2 YPC 9.6 YPT
Player B: 14.2 YPC 9.7 YPT
Player C: 11.8 YPC 8.0 YPT

Tell me about their YAC.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby MJW » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:29 pm

Does anyone really have any questions about what Mike Evans is at this point? We've seen him start 61 games in Tampa. If you watch other teams as well, it's obvious there are some things he can do as well as anybody, and also a handful of things you want an elite receiver to do that he really can't.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Bootz2004 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:35 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
That's in no way cheaper than paying him the $18mil APY after this season. The 2019 & 2020 FA tags average out to $18.7mil APY. And honestly your estimate is on the low end. Those numbers likely will be higher as guys like Watkins and Beckham and Landry sign deals and guys like Green Julio sign extensions. Projecting the franchise tag that far is always wrong.


The FT value is the average of the 5 highest contracts at the position the previous year. I don't see Watkins or Landry getting more than the $14.25m APY Julio has currently (5th highest WR contract). There is also not guarantee OBJ signs his deal before next offseason when the FT values are determined.

So we're talking a difference of $700k here between 18 and 18.7. I never said it would be cheaper, just stated that giving him 'highest paid WR $' wouldn't be much of difference cost wise than tagging him b2b years if god forbid we had to go down that road.

Tagging him would force him to be the player he wants to be paid like. I realize a contingent already feels that Evans is that guy, but I think he's a just a notch below hence my position in this discussion.

Evans hasn't performed like the 2nd best WR in the NFL so accepting a contract to get paid like it just months after AB and Hopkins got theirs isn't low-balling himself imo.

If he wants to bet on himself the risks associated with not taking the longterm security than I get that also. I hope he goes out there and has great season next year and gets his money. I just don't think Mike Evans warrants being paid as the top WR in the NFL right now when two other guys just signed there deals that have been better in every way. I agree the landscape will be different next offseason.


Davante Adams, a guy who has never hit 1000 yards and has 26 TDs in 4 years, just got more than Julio Jones. Let that sink in. Watkins is about to get franchised this year. Landry might get tagged as well. But make no mistake BOTH are better than Adams and BOTH will get paid more.

Also...
DreadNaught wrote:this idea it would be cheaper to pay him $18m APY is one I'm not understanding.


That's what you said. Whether is 700k less or 700 dollars less, $18mil APY is cheaper than $18.7mil and it's exactly what you said.

You keep bringing up Hopkins when the numbers prove that he hasn't been better than Evans in every way. Not even close.

You comparing Evans to Alshon Jeffrey and Davante Adams is the prime definition of low-balling. Adams is a #2 on his team and like I stated has never even hit 1000. Jeffrey has hit 1000 only twice in 6 seasons and hasn't done so since Evans was a rookie.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Bootz2004 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:37 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
Yes, the same percentage that Deandre Hopkins caught this season.


Both played in 15 games, one had 1378 yards-13TDs, the other has 1001yds-5TDs. This isn't a road you want to go down. Hopkins has had better catch rate despite far worse QBs throwing it to him.


You are taking major losses today. We are talking about Evans' 2016 season here, not 2017. Evans 2016 vs Hopkins 2017. Damn near identical.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Deuce » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:41 pm

Deuce wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:The top Non-QB contracts right now belong to Von Miller and Suh at just a shade over $19m APY. Guys like Aaron Donald, Clowney, and Mack (all the same '14 draft class as Evans) should eclipse that (or come close) based on timing. But all 5 of those guys are defensive players.

On offense it's all WRs that have the top non-QB contracts led by AB ($17m APY) and Hopkins ($16.2m). In fact the top 7 contracts in terms of APY for offensive players (non-QBs) ALL belong to WRs before you get a non-QB or WR (Okung).

I get the timing aspect of Evans contract and if he doesn't sign this season and wants to wait until after the season I can understand where his agent is coming from. I just see Evans as something between a Alshon Jeffery/DeVante Adams type of WR and the guys like AB, OBJ, Julio, and Hopkins. I think the latter 4 are all better in terms of explosiveness, production, and consistency than Evans has been.

Now if Evans decides to wait and he goes out and has a 1500yd - 10+ TD season than sure, pay the man and make the him new highest paid WR. But Evans hasn't had that season yet and since we're talking about the here and now I wouldn't be throwing that offer out there just yet. Based on Evans' 4 seasons I think a Hopkins type deal is certainly fair and not insulting heading into 2018.

Let me ask this hypothetical, what if Evans goes in 2018 and has another 1100yd season w/ around 5-6 TDs? Should he still get the richest WR contract in the NFL, or would it be better to just franchise tag him for 2019 if he still refuses to sign for less than the richest WR deal in the NFL?

My issue is that Evans has been one of the most targeted WRs in NFL the past 2-3 years but his production dwarfs in comparison and that is a minor concern for me when it comes his contract value.


His 2016/2017 is almost identical to Hopkins' 2017/2016 seasons. I think AB, OBJ, and Julio are the best in the league. Then you have guys like Hopkins, AJ Green, and Mike Evans. They aren't with that top tier but they're miles ahead of Jeffery or TY Hilton, for example. I think a Hopkins-type deal is fair, as well. But you have to factor in "inflation", too. Davante Adams signed for 4 years, $58 million ($14.5 mil APY). I'm guessing Evans will get a little more than Hopkins, probably around what AB currently makes.


Bootz2004 wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
Evans is an 1100yd - 8 TD WR at this point through 4 seasons. While that is very impressive (all these guys are) it's not in the same class as the guys like AB, Hopkins, Julio or OBJ.

Is Mike Evans the guy we saw in 2016? Or is more of the guy the we've seen in the 3 others? His catch rate is much lower than other WR1 around the league and you can't tell me you've been impressed with his big play ability (not saying that is ALL his fault). So the comps to Adams and Jeffery was in terms of style and the type of WRs they are. Which are big bodied guys that win the 50/50 balls and move the chains while not offering much explosion or run after catch. They require a high number of targets in order to get production b/c the provide the explosive plays that AB, Hopkins, Julio, Green, or OBJ do.

I can understand the Bucs not wanting to make Evans the highest paid WR at this moment in time and offering closer to what Hopkins got. Now if Evans goes out and has a season like he did in 2016 than sure, go pay the man since it's his turn. But with the amount of targets Evans gets barley eclipsing 1000yds doesn't excite me and it nothing more than a milestone most other WRs would also achieve if targeted that amount. If you look at some the advanced metrics like efficiency and catch rate Evans isn't a top 5 WR.

Name a WR who has been targeted close to the same or more than Evans but produced less. Names like Jarvis Landry will pop up.

Anyways, I get we disagree here. I just feel for non-QBs they need to demonstrate they are the best at their position before they are paid like it. Von Miller, Suh, Hopkins, AB, Julio, OBJ, have all done that to a degree Evans has not imo.... Yet. We'll see what happens in 2018.


At the same point thru 4 seasons Hopkins was an 1100 yd- 6 TD guy. Julio was an 1080 yd- 6.5 TD guy. AB was a 900 yd- 4 TD guy. Again none of these guys can say they've hit 1000 in their 1st 4 years. By your logic using numbers Evans is in a class above them.

If you're looking at catch rate by pure numbers like I know you are then you're not telling the entire story. No WR runs as many deep routes as Evans does. None. 1 figure you left out because it obviously doesn't fit your agenda is YPC. Evans 14.8 ypc is higher than all of these guys in that category except Jones at 15.5.

Evans is closer to a guy that for whatever reason has been forgotten in this discussion and he's probably more complete than all of them' AJ Green. Green and Evans are identical in YPC, similar in catch ratio and number of deep routes run. Green also like Evans has been a lock for 65+ catches and 1000 yards as well. He's getting $15mil APY, 3rd most in the league. You match up Hopkins with AJ Green and you'd see that it doesn't compare. Green is either underpaid or Hopkins is overpaid.


You should try reading the posts relevant to the topic, *****.

Anyway, thought this was interesting.

Per game over their careers:

Evans- 5.1 receptions, 75.1 yards, 0.5 TDs
Hopkins- 5.2 receptions, 74.2 yards, 0.5 TDs

To be fair, I'd have to give the edge to Hopkins since he's played with a lot of crummy QBs.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Bootz2004 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:55 pm

Deuce wrote:
Deuce wrote:
His 2016/2017 is almost identical to Hopkins' 2017/2016 seasons. I think AB, OBJ, and Julio are the best in the league. Then you have guys like Hopkins, AJ Green, and Mike Evans. They aren't with that top tier but they're miles ahead of Jeffery or TY Hilton, for example. I think a Hopkins-type deal is fair, as well. But you have to factor in "inflation", too. Davante Adams signed for 4 years, $58 million ($14.5 mil APY). I'm guessing Evans will get a little more than Hopkins, probably around what AB currently makes.


Bootz2004 wrote:
At the same point thru 4 seasons Hopkins was an 1100 yd- 6 TD guy. Julio was an 1080 yd- 6.5 TD guy. AB was a 900 yd- 4 TD guy. Again none of these guys can say they've hit 1000 in their 1st 4 years. By your logic using numbers Evans is in a class above them.

If you're looking at catch rate by pure numbers like I know you are then you're not telling the entire story. No WR runs as many deep routes as Evans does. None. 1 figure you left out because it obviously doesn't fit your agenda is YPC. Evans 14.8 ypc is higher than all of these guys in that category except Jones at 15.5.

Evans is closer to a guy that for whatever reason has been forgotten in this discussion and he's probably more complete than all of them' AJ Green. Green and Evans are identical in YPC, similar in catch ratio and number of deep routes run. Green also like Evans has been a lock for 65+ catches and 1000 yards as well. He's getting $15mil APY, 3rd most in the league. You match up Hopkins with AJ Green and you'd see that it doesn't compare. Green is either underpaid or Hopkins is overpaid.


You should try reading the posts relevant to the topic, *****.

Anyway, thought this was interesting.

Per game over their careers:

Evans- 5.1 receptions, 75.1 yards, 0.5 TDs
Hopkins- 5.2 receptions, 74.2 yards, 0.5 TDs

To be fair, I'd have to give the edge to Hopkins since he's played with a lot of crummy QBs.


I didn't know me passing over your post hurt your feelings so much, buddy. My bad.

Hopkins in a lot of ways has been like Doug Martin. Great 1 season, average the next. 2016 he didn't even hit 1000. His rookie year just 800. Attributing that to his QBs says more about him. Says he can't stand on his own merit and make plays. Evans hit 1000 yards and 12 TDs catching passes from Josh McCown and Mike Glennon. That's pretty crummy.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby ComingThisFall » Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:05 pm

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Feels a bit like Monty Python around here so... Does anyone else get the same vibe coming from these two plays and two players? BTW, that’s Blake Griffen getting T’d up for throwing a dead ball off the back of another players head. #offseason thoughts
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Rocker » Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:37 am

Evans is - and will be paid like - a premiere talent at his position. Whether it's by the Bucs or another franchise is a discussion to be had next year, at the absolute earliest.

Bootz's position on this issue has plenty of merit (and stats to cement the argument). I guess too many of yall read the name of the post and automatically assume it's a "bad" take.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Deuce » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:32 am

Rocker wrote:Evans is - and will be paid like - a premiere talent at his position. Whether it's by the Bucs or another franchise is a discussion to be had next year, at the absolute earliest.

Bootz's position on this issue has plenty of merit (and stats to cement the argument). I guess too many of yall read the name of the post and automatically assume it's a "bad" take.


Evans will be paid like a premiere talent at his position...thanks for the Jenna Laine-esque take. We're basically discussing if it'll be highest or third highest.

bootz' posts are not good. Just read them. He cherry picks stats and makes arguments about Davante Adams but he won't answer any questions. I asked him repeatedly, do you think Evans is the best WR in the league, he's afraid to answer.

He also won't throw a contract number out. It's equivalent to when you ask your wife where she wants to eat for dinner. She doesn't know, but she'll shoot down your first few suggestions anyway.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby uscbucsfan » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:42 am

Deuce wrote:
Rocker wrote:Evans is - and will be paid like - a premiere talent at his position. Whether it's by the Bucs or another franchise is a discussion to be had next year, at the absolute earliest.

Bootz's position on this issue has plenty of merit (and stats to cement the argument). I guess too many of yall read the name of the post and automatically assume it's a "bad" take.


Evans will be paid like a premiere talent at his position...thanks for the Jenna Laine-esque take. We're basically discussing if it'll be highest or third highest.

bootz' posts are not good. Just read them. He cherry picks stats and makes arguments about Davante Adams but he won't answer any questions. I asked him repeatedly, do you think Evans is the best WR in the league, he's afraid to answer.

He also won't throw a contract number out. It's equivalent to when you ask your wife where she wants to eat for dinner. She doesn't know, but she'll shoot down your first few suggestions anyway.

It's irrelevant if he's the best WR in the league. He's in that elite group that will continue to get the largest contract in NFL history for their position. It's how the NFL works, there are very few exceptions of this. Who cares and why even debate 1-3 million per year difference? It could potentially upset him and create a Cousins like scenario. Pay him a big contract sooner rather than later so we don't have to top new contracts to OBJ and the like. It's not that difficult.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Deuce » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:05 am

uscbucsfan wrote:
Deuce wrote:
Evans will be paid like a premiere talent at his position...thanks for the Jenna Laine-esque take. We're basically discussing if it'll be highest or third highest.

bootz' posts are not good. Just read them. He cherry picks stats and makes arguments about Davante Adams but he won't answer any questions. I asked him repeatedly, do you think Evans is the best WR in the league, he's afraid to answer.

He also won't throw a contract number out. It's equivalent to when you ask your wife where she wants to eat for dinner. She doesn't know, but she'll shoot down your first few suggestions anyway.

It's irrelevant if he's the best WR in the league. He's in that elite group that will continue to get the largest contract in NFL history for their position. It's how the NFL works, there are very few exceptions of this. Who cares and why even debate 1-3 million per year difference? It could potentially upset him and create a Cousins like scenario. Pay him a big contract sooner rather than later so we don't have to top new contracts to OBJ and the like. It's not that difficult.


I mean...the original question was basically "will he get paid like Hopkins or Brown, or even more like OBJ?" So I guess your opinion is that he'll be paid more than Brown and possibly more than OBJ, and you think that's fair. imo, he should only be paid like OBJ if you could argue that he's the best WR in the league, and I don't think you can.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby uscbucsfan » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:11 am

Deuce wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:It's irrelevant if he's the best WR in the league. He's in that elite group that will continue to get the largest contract in NFL history for their position. It's how the NFL works, there are very few exceptions of this. Who cares and why even debate 1-3 million per year difference? It could potentially upset him and create a Cousins like scenario. Pay him a big contract sooner rather than later so we don't have to top new contracts to OBJ and the like. It's not that difficult.


I mean...the original question was basically "will he get paid like Hopkins or Brown, or even more like OBJ?" So I guess your opinion is that he'll be paid more than Brown and possibly more than OBJ, and you think that's fair. imo, he should only be paid like OBJ if you could argue that he's the best WR in the league, and I don't think you can.

That's not how things work, though. Each QB, WR, RB, whatever the position in the top 10 of their positions take turns getting the largest contract in history due to the rising salary cap. He will/should get offered the biggest WR contract in history. If we try to skimp 1-3 million per year, he could want out, where he would absolutely get that type of money on the free market. Why argue about this? It doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. The only thing that should matter is that the Bucs lock up Evans as soon as possible for as long as possible. In 2-3 years it will look like a bargain.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby uscbucsfan » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:18 am

Tell me this, do you think saving 1-3 million per year will do any benefit to this franchise? We constantly stay under the cap by a significant amount. I don't mind offering Evans a discounted rate, but if he wants top dollar, give it to him. There's no need to alienate our best player for an insignificant amount of money just because he's not in fact the best WR. Many posters act like it's their money we are offering here.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Bootz2004 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:32 am

Deuce wrote:
Rocker wrote:Evans is - and will be paid like - a premiere talent at his position. Whether it's by the Bucs or another franchise is a discussion to be had next year, at the absolute earliest.

Bootz's position on this issue has plenty of merit (and stats to cement the argument). I guess too many of yall read the name of the post and automatically assume it's a "bad" take.


Evans will be paid like a premiere talent at his position...thanks for the Jenna Laine-esque take. We're basically discussing if it'll be highest or third highest.

bootz' posts are not good. Just read them. He cherry picks stats and makes arguments about Davante Adams but he won't answer any questions. I asked him repeatedly, do you think Evans is the best WR in the league, he's afraid to answer.

He also won't throw a contract number out. It's equivalent to when you ask your wife where she wants to eat for dinner. She doesn't know, but she'll shoot down your first few suggestions anyway.


Is Evans the best WR in the league? No. Julio Jones is IMO. But guess what? He's just the 4th highest paid WR in football. Being the best at a position isn't something that can be undisputably quantified. If it was these contract things would be easy. Davante Adams is relevant because he gets paid more per year than Julio Jones. Do you Adams is better than Jones?

I was never asked to throw out a contract number but I'll humor you. 4yrs/$75mil/$48mil guaranteed. Keep in mind this would be a deal signed next off-season, not this one.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Bootz2004 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:35 am

Deuce wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:It's irrelevant if he's the best WR in the league. He's in that elite group that will continue to get the largest contract in NFL history for their position. It's how the NFL works, there are very few exceptions of this. Who cares and why even debate 1-3 million per year difference? It could potentially upset him and create a Cousins like scenario. Pay him a big contract sooner rather than later so we don't have to top new contracts to OBJ and the like. It's not that difficult.


I mean...the original question was basically "will he get paid like Hopkins or Brown, or even more like OBJ?" So I guess your opinion is that he'll be paid more than Brown and possibly more than OBJ, and you think that's fair. imo, he should only be paid like OBJ if you could argue that he's the best WR in the league, and I don't think you can.


Why? Beckham isn't the best WR in the league.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Deuce » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:51 am

Bootz2004 wrote:
Deuce wrote:
Evans will be paid like a premiere talent at his position...thanks for the Jenna Laine-esque take. We're basically discussing if it'll be highest or third highest.

bootz' posts are not good. Just read them. He cherry picks stats and makes arguments about Davante Adams but he won't answer any questions. I asked him repeatedly, do you think Evans is the best WR in the league, he's afraid to answer.

He also won't throw a contract number out. It's equivalent to when you ask your wife where she wants to eat for dinner. She doesn't know, but she'll shoot down your first few suggestions anyway.


Is Evans the best WR in the league? No. Julio Jones is IMO. But guess what? He's just the 4th highest paid WR in football. Being the best at a position isn't something that can be undisputably quantified. If it was these contract things would be easy. Davante Adams is relevant because he gets paid more per year than Julio Jones. Do you Adams is better than Jones?

I was never asked to throw out a contract number but I'll humor you. 4yrs/$75mil/$48mil guaranteed. Keep in mind this would be a deal signed next off-season, not this one.


Thanks, bud. Now we're getting somewhere. Disagree with the Julio take but at least it's a solid take. Interesting number on the Evans contract as well. Solid post.

You weren't asked for a number because you started with this btw...

Bootz2004 wrote:Disagree with most of this. No need in discussing positional contract value as those facts are immutable. But production and consistency we can discuss. Out of Evans, Beckham, Jones, Brown and Hopkins 1 of these 5 men can say they've reached 1000 yards in their 1st 4 seasons. Evans. 1 of these 5 men can say they've caught at least 68 passes in each of their 1st 4 seasons. Evans. 2 of them can say they've had double digit TD catches in at least 2 of their 1st 4 seasons. Evans and Beckham, who started with 3 straight. Julio Jones has been in the league since 2011 and has only 1 double digit TD season. Evans already has 2. If you believe Evans is closer in terms of production to Alshon Jeffrey and Davante Adams you're being naive and ignorant at best. That's completely B.S. This 1500 yard/10 TD season you're talking about, Beckham hasn't done it. Julio hasn't done it. By your own logic they shouldn't be in this conversation either. So production and consistency Evans matches up and in most cases is more consistent than those guys.


Not taking anything away from your solid post.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby NYBF » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:56 am

NYBF wrote:Player A: 13.2 YPC 9.6 YPT
Player B: 14.2 YPC 9.7 YPT
Player C: 11.8 YPC 8.0 YPT

Tell me about their YAC.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Deuce » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:57 am

Bootz2004 wrote:
Deuce wrote:
I mean...the original question was basically "will he get paid like Hopkins or Brown, or even more like OBJ?" So I guess your opinion is that he'll be paid more than Brown and possibly more than OBJ, and you think that's fair. imo, he should only be paid like OBJ if you could argue that he's the best WR in the league, and I don't think you can.


Why? Beckham isn't the best WR in the league.


Just to add to it, contract values don't always match who is the best player BUT they kind of do when you account for when they were signed. Jones signed his in 2015. Adams signed his during the 2017 season. That's why I said Evans will get more than AB. Evans and OBJ will be up for new contracts at the same time. OBJ is going to want $20 million APY, I'm guessing. I don't think Evans should get that.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Bootz2004 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:01 am

Deuce wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
Why? Beckham isn't the best WR in the league.


Just to add to it, contract values don't always match who is the best player BUT they kind of do when you account for when they were signed. Jones signed his in 2015. Adams signed his during the 2017 season. That's why I said Evans will get more than AB. Evans and OBJ will be up for new contracts at the same time. OBJ is going to want $20 million APY, I'm guessing. I don't think Evans should get that.


I dont think either quite reaches $20mil. It will come close though but specifically speaking we aren't there yet. We will be 1 day though. The deal I posted has Evans at $18.75mil. Beckham might be a bit more or less depending on who signs 1st.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby uscbucsfan » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:05 am

Bootz2004 wrote:
Deuce wrote:
Just to add to it, contract values don't always match who is the best player BUT they kind of do when you account for when they were signed. Jones signed his in 2015. Adams signed his during the 2017 season. That's why I said Evans will get more than AB. Evans and OBJ will be up for new contracts at the same time. OBJ is going to want $20 million APY, I'm guessing. I don't think Evans should get that.


I dont think either quite reaches $20mil. It will come close though but specifically speaking we aren't there yet. We will be 1 day though. The deal I posted has Evans at $18.75mil. Beckham might be a bit more or less depending on who signs 1st.

I think that's a realistic number as far as what Evans would want and what we could afford. I don't see any reason why that would be debated. If Evans agreed get around 16-17 million like Hopkins and Brown, it would be a huge coup, but we would be stupid as a franchise to try to play hard ball around those numbers.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Bootz2004 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:13 am

uscbucsfan wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
I dont think either quite reaches $20mil. It will come close though but specifically speaking we aren't there yet. We will be 1 day though. The deal I posted has Evans at $18.75mil. Beckham might be a bit more or less depending on who signs 1st.

I think that's a realistic number as far as what Evans would want and what we could afford. I don't see any reason why that would be debated. If Evans agreed get around 16-17 million like Hopkins and Brown, it would be a huge coup, but we would be stupid as a franchise to try to play hard ball around those numbers.


Exactly. But given his history with the contracts here I don't think it'll be much of a problem for Jason Licht to get this done. He hasn't really low-balled any of our impending FAs and has paid them all quite nicely(McCoy, David, Martin, Dotson). At or near the top of their position. He knows what Evans brings to this team and will gladly compensate him.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby uscbucsfan » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:14 am

Bootz2004 wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:I think that's a realistic number as far as what Evans would want and what we could afford. I don't see any reason why that would be debated. If Evans agreed get around 16-17 million like Hopkins and Brown, it would be a huge coup, but we would be stupid as a franchise to try to play hard ball around those numbers.


Exactly. But given his history with the contracts here I don't think it'll be much of a problem for Jason Licht to get this done. He hasn't really low-balled any of our impending FAs and has paid them all quite nicely(McCoy, David, Martin, Dotson). At or near the top of their position. He knows what Evans brings to this team and will gladly compensate him.


Agreed.

This is just bored off season dramatics by fans.
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