***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!***

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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Caradoc » Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:13 am

Sammich wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
I took it to mean a 120% increase. I could be wrong


120% of the original value aka a 20% increase. Lesson learned, k!ddo.



Ten will get you twenty a year from now Bootsie will be recalling how he had to explain tag math to us casuals.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby mdb1958 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:32 am

Kid-owe does have a point!
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Teitan » Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:18 am

DreadNaught wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
I don't know why it's even a conversation.


Because not everyone agree Mike Evans should be paid 19m a year.


I’m not talking about what is being discussed. I referring to the, “No he isn’t. Yes he is. No he isn’t. Yes he is”.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby mdb1958 » Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:09 am

DreadNaught wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
I don't know why it's even a conversation.


Because not everyone agree Mike Evans should be paid 19m a year.



So what your saying is there are a unified group of Buc fans that would rather see Mike gone than what they think is over pay him. These are the same people that look at other rosters only to see a dying star and then thinking throwing wads of cash at him will make that player a shiny new star here in Tampa.

No one can argue DJ or Chris Baker have/had veteran experience and talent and they still struggled to make it work in Tampa.


Where is the positive value in the argument?
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby MJW » Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:09 am

Mike should sign the richest contract ever for an NFL receiver, even if only by a small margin, because that's how these things work. If the Bucs are offering less than that, I would expect him to dig in.

That said, this, "highest paid PLAYER" stuff...it's not going to happen nor should it. If Evans thinks otherwise, there's no much OBP can do about that.

As it stands, if we don't do a thing, we essentially have him for the next two years at around $16 mil APY, on the 5th year option and then franchise tag. If he'd like to wait until later to discuss things rationally, sure.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Phantom Phenom » Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:17 pm

The agent for Mike Evans said he and the Bucs are not currently negotiating a new deal.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Bootz2004 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:40 pm

Phantom Phenom wrote:The agent for Mike Evans said he and the Bucs are not currently negotiating a new deal.


That's pretty much in line with what we've been discussing all weekend about Mike Evans....
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Miller4Prez64 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:22 pm

MJW wrote:Mike should sign the richest contract ever for an NFL receiver, even if only by a small margin, because that's how these things work. If the Bucs are offering less than that, I would expect him to dig in.

That said, this, "highest paid PLAYER" stuff...it's not going to happen nor should it. If Evans thinks otherwise, there's no much OBP can do about that.

As it stands, if we don't do a thing, we essentially have him for the next two years at around $16 mil APY, on the 5th year option and then franchise tag. If he'd like to wait until later to discuss things rationally, sure.


I would pay Mike as a top WR without a thought, but if he thinks he's getting QB money (especially after a disappointing season), he's lost his marbles.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby DreadNaught » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:10 pm

The top Non-QB contracts right now belong to Von Miller and Suh at just a shade over $19m APY. Guys like Aaron Donald, Clowney, and Mack (all the same '14 draft class as Evans) should eclipse that (or come close) based on timing. But all 5 of those guys are defensive players.

On offense it's all WRs that have the top non-QB contracts led by AB ($17m APY) and Hopkins ($16.2m). In fact the top 7 contracts in terms of APY for offensive players (non-QBs) ALL belong to WRs before you get a non-QB or WR (Okung).

I get the timing aspect of Evans contract and if he doesn't sign this season and wants to wait until after the season I can understand where his agent is coming from. I just see Evans as something between a Alshon Jeffery/DeVante Adams type of WR and the guys like AB, OBJ, Julio, and Hopkins. I think the latter 4 are all better in terms of explosiveness, production, and consistency than Evans has been.

Now if Evans decides to wait and he goes out and has a 1500yd - 10+ TD season than sure, pay the man and make the him new highest paid WR. But Evans hasn't had that season yet and since we're talking about the here and now I wouldn't be throwing that offer out there just yet. Based on Evans' 4 seasons I think a Hopkins type deal is certainly fair and not insulting heading into 2018.

Let me ask this hypothetical, what if Evans goes in 2018 and has another 1100yd season w/ around 5-6 TDs? Should he still get the richest WR contract in the NFL, or would it be better to just franchise tag him for 2019 if he still refuses to sign for less than the richest WR deal in the NFL?

My issue is that Evans has been one of the most targeted WRs in NFL the past 2-3 years but his production dwarfs in comparison and that is a minor concern for me when it comes his contract value.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby MJW » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:20 pm

DreadNaught wrote:The top Non-QB contracts right now belong to Von Miller and Suh at just a shade over $19m APY. Guys like Aaron Donald, Clowney, and Mack (all the same '14 draft class as Evans) should eclipse that (or come close) based on timing. But all 5 of those guys are defensive players.

On offense it's all WRs that have the top non-QB contracts led by AB ($17m APY) and Hopkins ($16.2m). In fact the top 7 contracts in terms of APY for offensive players (non-QBs) ALL belong to WRs before you get a non-QB or WR (Okung).

I get the timing aspect of Evans contract and if he doesn't sign this season and wants to wait until after the season I can understand where his agent is coming from. I just see Evans as something between a Alshon Jeffery/DeVante Adams type of WR and the guys like AB, OBJ, Julio, and Hopkins. I think the latter 4 are all better in terms of explosiveness, production, and consistency than Evans has been.

Now if Evans decides to wait and he goes out and has a 1500yd - 10+ TD season than sure, pay the man and make the him new highest paid WR. But Evans hasn't had that season yet and since we're talking about the here and now I wouldn't be throwing that offer out there just yet. Based on Evans' 4 seasons I think a Hopkins type deal is certainly fair and not insulting heading into 2018.

Let me ask this hypothetical, what if Evans goes in 2018 and has another 1100yd season w/ around 5-6 TDs? Should he still get the richest WR contract in the NFL, or would it be better to just franchise tag him for 2019 if he still refuses to sign for less than the richest WR deal in the NFL?

My issue is that Evans has been one of the most targeted WRs in NFL the past 2-3 years but his production dwarfs in comparison and that is a minor concern for me when it comes his contract value.


"Should" he be the highest paid wide receiver in the NFL? I mean...no? But the market plays a bigger factor in these things than the raw talent of the player. If we don't pay him that kind of money, someone else will. He knows it, we know it, and he knows we know it. The ball will be in our court whenever his agent decides to sit down at the table.

If you're simply asking if we should give him that money or not, that's valid at this point for the reasons you stated. He's a volume receiver. He's not much of a YAC guy at all, and he's not much of a threat on gadget plays. It's reasonable to wonder if we've seen his ceiling, because he's not going to get much faster or more elusive.

But ultimately, I think we need to pay him market value. We're a significantly worse team without him on it.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Bootz2004 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:27 pm

DreadNaught wrote:The top Non-QB contracts right now belong to Von Miller and Suh at just a shade over $19m APY. Guys like Aaron Donald, Clowney, and Mack (all the same '14 draft class as Evans) should eclipse that (or come close) based on timing. But all 5 of those guys are defensive players.

On offense it's all WRs that have the top non-QB contracts led by AB ($17m APY) and Hopkins ($16.2m). In fact the top 7 contracts in terms of APY for offensive players (non-QBs) ALL belong to WRs before you get a non-QB or WR (Okung).

I get the timing aspect of Evans contract and if he doesn't sign this season and wants to wait until after the season I can understand where his agent is coming from. I just see Evans as something between a Alshon Jeffery/DeVante Adams type of WR and the guys like AB, OBJ, Julio, and Hopkins. I think the latter 4 are all better in terms of explosiveness, production, and consistency than Evans has been.

Now if Evans decides to wait and he goes out and has a 1500yd - 10+ TD season than sure, pay the man and make the him new highest paid WR. But Evans hasn't had that season yet and since we're talking about the here and now I wouldn't be throwing that offer out there just yet. Based on Evans' 4 seasons I think a Hopkins type deal is certainly fair and not insulting heading into 2018.

Let me ask this hypothetical, what if Evans goes in 2018 and has another 1100yd season w/ around 5-6 TDs? Should he still get the richest WR contract in the NFL, or would it be better to just franchise tag him for 2019 if he still refuses to sign for less than the richest WR deal in the NFL?

My issue is that Evans has been one of the most targeted WRs in NFL the past 2-3 years but his production dwarfs in comparison and that is a minor concern for me when it comes his contract value.


Disagree with most of this. No need in discussing positional contract value as those facts are immutable. But production and consistency we can discuss. Out of Evans, Beckham, Jones, Brown and Hopkins 1 of these 5 men can say they've reached 1000 yards in their 1st 4 seasons. Evans. 1 of these 5 men can say they've caught at least 68 passes in each of their 1st 4 seasons. Evans. 2 of them can say they've had double digit TD catches in at least 2 of their 1st 4 seasons. Evans and Beckham, who started with 3 straight. Julio Jones has been in the league since 2011 and has only 1 double digit TD season. Evans already has 2. If you believe Evans is closer in terms of production to Alshon Jeffrey and Davante Adams you're being naive and ignorant at best. That's completely B.S. This 1500 yard/10 TD season you're talking about, Beckham hasn't done it. Julio hasn't done it. By your own logic they shouldn't be in this conversation either. So production and consistency Evans matches up and in most cases is more consistent than those guys.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby BayAreaBucFan25 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:33 pm

Vontea Davis just got medically cleared. I think he would be a great addition and cheaper then Trumaine Johnson. Thoughts?
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Deuce » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:33 pm

DreadNaught wrote:The top Non-QB contracts right now belong to Von Miller and Suh at just a shade over $19m APY. Guys like Aaron Donald, Clowney, and Mack (all the same '14 draft class as Evans) should eclipse that (or come close) based on timing. But all 5 of those guys are defensive players.

On offense it's all WRs that have the top non-QB contracts led by AB ($17m APY) and Hopkins ($16.2m). In fact the top 7 contracts in terms of APY for offensive players (non-QBs) ALL belong to WRs before you get a non-QB or WR (Okung).

I get the timing aspect of Evans contract and if he doesn't sign this season and wants to wait until after the season I can understand where his agent is coming from. I just see Evans as something between a Alshon Jeffery/DeVante Adams type of WR and the guys like AB, OBJ, Julio, and Hopkins. I think the latter 4 are all better in terms of explosiveness, production, and consistency than Evans has been.

Now if Evans decides to wait and he goes out and has a 1500yd - 10+ TD season than sure, pay the man and make the him new highest paid WR. But Evans hasn't had that season yet and since we're talking about the here and now I wouldn't be throwing that offer out there just yet. Based on Evans' 4 seasons I think a Hopkins type deal is certainly fair and not insulting heading into 2018.

Let me ask this hypothetical, what if Evans goes in 2018 and has another 1100yd season w/ around 5-6 TDs? Should he still get the richest WR contract in the NFL, or would it be better to just franchise tag him for 2019 if he still refuses to sign for less than the richest WR deal in the NFL?

My issue is that Evans has been one of the most targeted WRs in NFL the past 2-3 years but his production dwarfs in comparison and that is a minor concern for me when it comes his contract value.


His 2016/2017 is almost identical to Hopkins' 2017/2016 seasons. I think AB, OBJ, and Julio are the best in the league. Then you have guys like Hopkins, AJ Green, and Mike Evans. They aren't with that top tier but they're miles ahead of Jeffery or TY Hilton, for example. I think a Hopkins-type deal is fair, as well. But you have to factor in "inflation", too. Davante Adams signed for 4 years, $58 million ($14.5 mil APY). I'm guessing Evans will get a little more than Hopkins, probably around what AB currently makes.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby beardmcdoug » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:43 pm

if evans wants to be paid like a top 10 or 15 skill position player in the NFL, I want to see more than 115 YAC next year. You know who had more than 115 YAC last year????????

RASHARD HIGGINS - CLE

WHO?

SETH DeVALVE - CLE

WHO?

NICK BOYLE - BAL

WHO?

DARREN FELLS - DET

WHO?


In only 5 games, Josh Gordon had 1 more YAC than Evans had ALL SEASON.
In only 3 GAMES, KAPRI BIBBS from WSH had 9 more YAC than Evans had ALL SEASON.

Cooper Kupp had 3 TIMES as much YAC as Evans did.
OLD ASS LARRY FITZGERALD had 3.5 TIMES as much YAC as Evans did.
Adam Thielen had 4 TIMES as much YAC as Evans did.
Keenan Allen had 4.25 TIMES as much YAC as Evans did.
Julio Jones had 4.5 TIMES as much YAC as Evans did.
Christian McCaffrey and Duke Johnson had 5 TIMES as much YAC as Evans did.
Golden Tate had 5.5 TIMES as much YAC as Evans did.

I know YAC isn't "his game" but the guy has GOT to show some more effort with the ball in his hands if he wants to get paid like a top 10 or 15 skill position player in this league. Enough of this catch the ball and fall down crap.
Last edited by beardmcdoug on Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby PrimeMinister » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:44 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:The top Non-QB contracts right now belong to Von Miller and Suh at just a shade over $19m APY. Guys like Aaron Donald, Clowney, and Mack (all the same '14 draft class as Evans) should eclipse that (or come close) based on timing. But all 5 of those guys are defensive players.

On offense it's all WRs that have the top non-QB contracts led by AB ($17m APY) and Hopkins ($16.2m). In fact the top 7 contracts in terms of APY for offensive players (non-QBs) ALL belong to WRs before you get a non-QB or WR (Okung).

I get the timing aspect of Evans contract and if he doesn't sign this season and wants to wait until after the season I can understand where his agent is coming from. I just see Evans as something between a Alshon Jeffery/DeVante Adams type of WR and the guys like AB, OBJ, Julio, and Hopkins. I think the latter 4 are all better in terms of explosiveness, production, and consistency than Evans has been.

Now if Evans decides to wait and he goes out and has a 1500yd - 10+ TD season than sure, pay the man and make the him new highest paid WR. But Evans hasn't had that season yet and since we're talking about the here and now I wouldn't be throwing that offer out there just yet. Based on Evans' 4 seasons I think a Hopkins type deal is certainly fair and not insulting heading into 2018.

Let me ask this hypothetical, what if Evans goes in 2018 and has another 1100yd season w/ around 5-6 TDs? Should he still get the richest WR contract in the NFL, or would it be better to just franchise tag him for 2019 if he still refuses to sign for less than the richest WR deal in the NFL?

My issue is that Evans has been one of the most targeted WRs in NFL the past 2-3 years but his production dwarfs in comparison and that is a minor concern for me when it comes his contract value.


Disagree with most of this. No need in discussing positional contract value as those facts are immutable. But production and consistency we can discuss. Out of Evans, Beckham, Jones, Brown and Hopkins 1 of these 5 men can say they've reached 1000 yards in their 1st 4 seasons. Evans. 1 of these 5 men can say they've caught at least 68 passes in each of their 1st 4 seasons. Evans. 2 of them can say they've had double digit TD catches in at least 2 of their 1st 4 seasons. Evans and Beckham, who started with 3 straight. Julio Jones has been in the league since 2011 and has only 1 double digit TD season. Evans already has 2. If you believe Evans is closer in terms of production to Alshon Jeffrey and Davante Adams you're being naive and ignorant at best. That's completely B.S. This 1500 yard/10 TD season you're talking about, Beckham hasn't done it. Julio hasn't done it. By your own logic they shouldn't be in this conversation either. So production and consistency Evans matches up and in most cases is more consistent than those guys.


This is near exactly what I was thinking as a read Dread’s post. The standard he wants Evans to reach is beyond other top tier WRs. Like MHW stayed we have no choice but to eventually make Evans the highest paid non-QB or let him walk after tagging him twice. It’ll be cheaper to sign him to that “highest player contract” ASAP as he will only get more expensive.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby PrimeMinister » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:47 pm

beardmcdoug wrote:if evans wants to be paid like a top 10 or 15 skill position player in the NFL, I want to see more than 115 YAC next year. You know who had more than 115 YAC last year????????

RASHARD HIGGINS - CLE

WHO?

SETH DeVALVE - CLE

WHO?

NICK BOYLE - BAL

WHO?

DARREN FELLS - DET

WHO?


In only 5 games, Josh Gordon had 1 more YAC than Evans had ALL SEASON.
In only 3 GAMES, KAPRI BIBBS from WSH had 9 more YAC than Evans had ALL SEASON.

Cooper Kupp had 3 TIMES as much YAC as Evans did.
OLD ASS LARRY FITZGERALD had 3.5 TIMES as much YAC as Evans did.
Adam Thielen had 4 TIMES as much YAC as Evans did.
Keenan Allen had 4.25 TIMES as much YAC as Evans did.
Julio Jones had 4.5 TIMES as much YAC as Evans did.
Christian McCaffrey and Duke Johnson had 5 TIMES as much YAC as Evans did.
Golden Tate had 5.5 TIMES as much YAC as Evans did.

I know YAC isn't "his game" but the guy has GOT to show some more effort with the ball in his hands if he wants to get paid like a top 10 or 15 skill position player in this league. Enough of this catch the ball and fall down crap.


Evans may not get YAC, but he scores more than most of those receivers you named minus OBJ. He may not get the YAC shards but he gets in the end zone.

Either we will pay him or some other team will happily pay him after the franchise tags.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Deuce » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:47 pm

PrimeMinister wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
Disagree with most of this. No need in discussing positional contract value as those facts are immutable. But production and consistency we can discuss. Out of Evans, Beckham, Jones, Brown and Hopkins 1 of these 5 men can say they've reached 1000 yards in their 1st 4 seasons. Evans. 1 of these 5 men can say they've caught at least 68 passes in each of their 1st 4 seasons. Evans. 2 of them can say they've had double digit TD catches in at least 2 of their 1st 4 seasons. Evans and Beckham, who started with 3 straight. Julio Jones has been in the league since 2011 and has only 1 double digit TD season. Evans already has 2. If you believe Evans is closer in terms of production to Alshon Jeffrey and Davante Adams you're being naive and ignorant at best. That's completely B.S. This 1500 yard/10 TD season you're talking about, Beckham hasn't done it. Julio hasn't done it. By your own logic they shouldn't be in this conversation either. So production and consistency Evans matches up and in most cases is more consistent than those guys.


This is near exactly what I was thinking as a read Dread’s post. The standard he wants Evans to reach is beyond other top tier WRs. Like MHW stayed we have no choice but to eventually make Evans the highest paid non-QB or let him walk after tagging him twice. It’ll be cheaper to sign him to that “highest player contract” ASAP as he will only get more expensive.


bootz post cherry picks a lot of stats. Why do we care about AB's first 4 years when he's an 8-year vet right now? Bottom line is, OBJ, AB and Julio have done either a lot more with similar targets or just more with less targets.

Do people here think Evans is the best WR in the league or something? There's nothing wrong with being top 5.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Bootz2004 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:49 pm

beardmcdoug wrote:if evans wants to be paid like a top 10 or 15 skill position player in the NFL, I want to see more than 115 YAC next year. You know who had more than 115 YAC last year????????

RASHARD HIGGINS - CLE

WHO?

SETH DeVALVE - CLE

WHO?

NICK BOYLE - BAL

WHO?

DARREN FELLS - DET

WHO?


In only 5 games, Josh Gordon had 1 more YAC than Evans had ALL SEASON.
In only 3 GAMES, KAPRI BIBBS from WSH had 9 more YAC than Evans had ALL SEASON.

Cooper Kupp had 3 TIMES as much YAC as Evans did.
OLD ASS LARRY FITZGERALD had 3.5 TIMES as much YAC as Evans did.
Adam Thielen had 4 TIMES as much YAC as Evans did.
Keenan Allen had 4.25 TIMES as much YAC as Evans did.
Julio Jones had 4.5 TIMES as much YAC as Evans did.
Christian McCaffrey and Duke Johnson had 5 TIMES as much YAC as Evans did.
Golden Tate had 5.5 TIMES as much YAC as Evans did.

I know YAC isn't "his game" but the guy has GOT to show some more effort with the ball in his hands if he wants to get paid like a top 10 or 15 skill position player in this league. Enough of this catch the ball and fall down crap.


Now you're really picking nits here. Guy averages 14.8 yards per CATCH and you're worried about YAC. His YPC is higher than all of the people you listed except Julio Jones and Josh Gordon. Also higher than Hopkins, Beckham and Antonio Brown.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Bootz2004 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:52 pm

Deuce wrote:
PrimeMinister wrote:
This is near exactly what I was thinking as a read Dread’s post. The standard he wants Evans to reach is beyond other top tier WRs. Like MHW stayed we have no choice but to eventually make Evans the highest paid non-QB or let him walk after tagging him twice. It’ll be cheaper to sign him to that “highest player contract” ASAP as he will only get more expensive.


bootz post cherry picks a lot of stats. Why do we care about AB's first 4 years when he's an 8-year vet right now? Bottom line is, OBJ, AB and Julio have done either a lot more with similar targets or just more with less targets.

Do people here think Evans is the best WR in the league or something? There's nothing wrong with being top 5.


That's not even true in the slightest. Dread's post 1st of all was a mix of cherry picking stats and down right untruths. So is your post.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Deuce » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:56 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
Deuce wrote:
bootz post cherry picks a lot of stats. Why do we care about AB's first 4 years when he's an 8-year vet right now? Bottom line is, OBJ, AB and Julio have done either a lot more with similar targets or just more with less targets.

Do people here think Evans is the best WR in the league or something? There's nothing wrong with being top 5.


That's not even true in the slightest. Dread's post 1st of all was a mix of cherry picking stats and down right untruths. So is your post.


So you do think he's the best WR in the league?
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby DreadNaught » Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:09 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:The top Non-QB contracts right now belong to Von Miller and Suh at just a shade over $19m APY. Guys like Aaron Donald, Clowney, and Mack (all the same '14 draft class as Evans) should eclipse that (or come close) based on timing. But all 5 of those guys are defensive players.

On offense it's all WRs that have the top non-QB contracts led by AB ($17m APY) and Hopkins ($16.2m). In fact the top 7 contracts in terms of APY for offensive players (non-QBs) ALL belong to WRs before you get a non-QB or WR (Okung).

I get the timing aspect of Evans contract and if he doesn't sign this season and wants to wait until after the season I can understand where his agent is coming from. I just see Evans as something between a Alshon Jeffery/DeVante Adams type of WR and the guys like AB, OBJ, Julio, and Hopkins. I think the latter 4 are all better in terms of explosiveness, production, and consistency than Evans has been.

Now if Evans decides to wait and he goes out and has a 1500yd - 10+ TD season than sure, pay the man and make the him new highest paid WR. But Evans hasn't had that season yet and since we're talking about the here and now I wouldn't be throwing that offer out there just yet. Based on Evans' 4 seasons I think a Hopkins type deal is certainly fair and not insulting heading into 2018.

Let me ask this hypothetical, what if Evans goes in 2018 and has another 1100yd season w/ around 5-6 TDs? Should he still get the richest WR contract in the NFL, or would it be better to just franchise tag him for 2019 if he still refuses to sign for less than the richest WR deal in the NFL?

My issue is that Evans has been one of the most targeted WRs in NFL the past 2-3 years but his production dwarfs in comparison and that is a minor concern for me when it comes his contract value.


Disagree with most of this. No need in discussing positional contract value as those facts are immutable. But production and consistency we can discuss. Out of Evans, Beckham, Jones, Brown and Hopkins 1 of these 5 men can say they've reached 1000 yards in their 1st 4 seasons. Evans. 1 of these 5 men can say they've caught at least 68 passes in each of their 1st 4 seasons. Evans. 2 of them can say they've had double digit TD catches in at least 2 of their 1st 4 seasons. Evans and Beckham, who started with 3 straight. Julio Jones has been in the league since 2011 and has only 1 double digit TD season. Evans already has 2. If you believe Evans is closer in terms of production to Alshon Jeffrey and Davante Adams you're being naive and ignorant at best. That's completely B.S. This 1500 yard/10 TD season you're talking about, Beckham hasn't done it. Julio hasn't done it. By your own logic they shouldn't be in this conversation either. So production and consistency Evans matches up and in most cases is more consistent than those guys.


Evans is an 1100yd - 8 TD WR at this point through 4 seasons. While that is very impressive (all these guys are) it's not in the same class as the guys like AB, Hopkins, Julio or OBJ.

Is Mike Evans the guy we saw in 2016? Or is more of the guy the we've seen in the 3 others? His catch rate is much lower than other WR1 around the league and you can't tell me you've been impressed with his big play ability (not saying that is ALL his fault). So the comps to Adams and Jeffery was in terms of style and the type of WRs they are. Which are big bodied guys that win the 50/50 balls and move the chains while not offering much explosion or run after catch. They require a high number of targets in order to get production b/c the provide the explosive plays that AB, Hopkins, Julio, Green, or OBJ do.

I can understand the Bucs not wanting to make Evans the highest paid WR at this moment in time and offering closer to what Hopkins got. Now if Evans goes out and has a season like he did in 2016 than sure, go pay the man since it's his turn. But with the amount of targets Evans gets barley eclipsing 1000yds doesn't excite me and it nothing more than a milestone most other WRs would also achieve if targeted that amount. If you look at some the advanced metrics like efficiency and catch rate Evans isn't a top 5 WR.

Name a WR who has been targeted close to the same or more than Evans but produced less. Names like Jarvis Landry will pop up.

Anyways, I get we disagree here. I just feel for non-QBs they need to demonstrate they are the best at their position before they are paid like it. Von Miller, Suh, Hopkins, AB, Julio, OBJ, have all done that to a degree Evans has not imo.... Yet. We'll see what happens in 2018.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby DreadNaught » Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:30 pm

PrimeMinister wrote:The standard he wants Evans to reach is beyond other top tier WRs. Like MHW stayed we have no choice but to eventually make Evans the highest paid non-QB or let him walk after tagging him twice. It’ll be cheaper to sign him to that “highest player contract” ASAP as he will only get more expensive.


The FT value for the WR position is $15.7m. Which is an increase of $1.1m from the year prior ($14.6m). So let's assume it WR FT value will be around $17m next year when Evans could hypothetically be tagged. A 120% from the previous year if we tag him again for the 2020 season would be $20.4m.

2018 - $13.2m (5th year option)
2019 - $17m (FT)
2020 - $20.4m (FT)

That is what his contracts would be (fully guaranteed) for the next 3 years with no long term commitment from the Bucs and Evans basically on a year to year deal. Assuming no long term deal is reached Evans could then leave and test FA and enter the 2021 season at 28years old.

I would prefer not to go down this path with Evans, but this idea it would be cheaper to pay him $18m APY is one I'm not understanding. Certainly not in the short term. Maybe long term that is the case when Evans is closer to 30yrs old and the team has him locked into a lower #. But we all know those non-guaranteed years in NFL contract aren't worth the paper they are written on.

I just want Evans to show he's the best WR in the NFL, or atleast on par with those guys before paying him like he is. I just don't think he's done that yet is all.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Bootz2004 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:33 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
Disagree with most of this. No need in discussing positional contract value as those facts are immutable. But production and consistency we can discuss. Out of Evans, Beckham, Jones, Brown and Hopkins 1 of these 5 men can say they've reached 1000 yards in their 1st 4 seasons. Evans. 1 of these 5 men can say they've caught at least 68 passes in each of their 1st 4 seasons. Evans. 2 of them can say they've had double digit TD catches in at least 2 of their 1st 4 seasons. Evans and Beckham, who started with 3 straight. Julio Jones has been in the league since 2011 and has only 1 double digit TD season. Evans already has 2. If you believe Evans is closer in terms of production to Alshon Jeffrey and Davante Adams you're being naive and ignorant at best. That's completely B.S. This 1500 yard/10 TD season you're talking about, Beckham hasn't done it. Julio hasn't done it. By your own logic they shouldn't be in this conversation either. So production and consistency Evans matches up and in most cases is more consistent than those guys.


Evans is an 1100yd - 8 TD WR at this point through 4 seasons. While that is very impressive (all these guys are) it's not in the same class as the guys like AB, Hopkins, Julio or OBJ.

Is Mike Evans the guy we saw in 2016? Or is more of the guy the we've seen in the 3 others? His catch rate is much lower than other WR1 around the league and you can't tell me you've been impressed with his big play ability (not saying that is ALL his fault). So the comps to Adams and Jeffery was in terms of style and the type of WRs they are. Which are big bodied guys that win the 50/50 balls and move the chains while not offering much explosion or run after catch. They require a high number of targets in order to get production b/c the provide the explosive plays that AB, Hopkins, Julio, Green, or OBJ do.

I can understand the Bucs not wanting to make Evans the highest paid WR at this moment in time and offering closer to what Hopkins got. Now if Evans goes out and has a season like he did in 2016 than sure, go pay the man since it's his turn. But with the amount of targets Evans gets barley eclipsing 1000yds doesn't excite me and it nothing more than a milestone most other WRs would also achieve if targeted that amount. If you look at some the advanced metrics like efficiency and catch rate Evans isn't a top 5 WR.

Name a WR who has been targeted close to the same or more than Evans but produced less. Names like Jarvis Landry will pop up.

Anyways, I get we disagree here. I just feel for non-QBs they need to demonstrate they are the best at their position before they are paid like it. Von Miller, Suh, Hopkins, AB, Julio, OBJ, have all done that to a degree Evans has not imo.... Yet. We'll see what happens in 2018.


At the same point thru 4 seasons Hopkins was an 1100 yd- 6 TD guy. Julio was an 1080 yd- 6.5 TD guy. AB was a 900 yd- 4 TD guy. Again none of these guys can say they've hit 1000 in their 1st 4 years. By your logic using numbers Evans is in a class above them.

If you're looking at catch rate by pure numbers like I know you are then you're not telling the entire story. No WR runs as many deep routes as Evans does. None. 1 figure you left out because it obviously doesn't fit your agenda is YPC. Evans 14.8 ypc is higher than all of these guys in that category except Jones at 15.5.

Evans is closer to a guy that for whatever reason has been forgotten in this discussion and he's probably more complete than all of them' AJ Green. Green and Evans are identical in YPC, similar in catch ratio and number of deep routes run. Green also like Evans has been a lock for 65+ catches and 1000 yards as well. He's getting $15mil APY, 3rd most in the league. You match up Hopkins with AJ Green and you'd see that it doesn't compare. Green is either underpaid or Hopkins is overpaid.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby real bucs fan » Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:34 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
PrimeMinister wrote:The standard he wants Evans to reach is beyond other top tier WRs. Like MHW stayed we have no choice but to eventually make Evans the highest paid non-QB or let him walk after tagging him twice. It’ll be cheaper to sign him to that “highest player contract” ASAP as he will only get more expensive.


The FT value for the WR position is $15.7m. Which is an increase of $1.1m from the year prior ($14.6m). So let's assume it WR FT value will be around $17m next year when Evans could hypothetically be tagged. A 120% from the previous year if we tag him again for the 2020 season would be $20.4m.

2018 - $13.2m (5th year option)
2019 - $17m (FT)
2020 - $20.4m (FT)

That is what his contracts would be (fully guaranteed) for the next 3 years with no long term commitment from the Bucs and Evans basically on a year to year deal. Assuming no long term deal is reached Evans could then leave and test FA and enter the 2021 season at 28years old.

I would prefer not to go down this path with Evans, but this idea it would be cheaper to pay him $18m APY is one I'm not understanding. Certainly not in the short term. Maybe long term that is the case when Evans is closer to 30yrs old and the team has him locked into a lower #. But we all know those non-guaranteed years in NFL contract aren't worth the paper they are written on.

I just want Evans to show he's the best WR in the NFL, or atleast on par with those guys before paying him like he is. I just don't think he's done that yet is all.

Ya I made this point earlier in the thread, that I don't think the Bucs would mind waiting it out and going this route. I honestly believe it's in Evans best interest to sign long term, it's just his agent is posturing because of the down year Evans had.

At the end of the day, I think we see Evans sign. First OBJ is going to set the market though.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby beardmcdoug » Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:34 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
Disagree with most of this. No need in discussing positional contract value as those facts are immutable. But production and consistency we can discuss. Out of Evans, Beckham, Jones, Brown and Hopkins 1 of these 5 men can say they've reached 1000 yards in their 1st 4 seasons. Evans. 1 of these 5 men can say they've caught at least 68 passes in each of their 1st 4 seasons. Evans. 2 of them can say they've had double digit TD catches in at least 2 of their 1st 4 seasons. Evans and Beckham, who started with 3 straight. Julio Jones has been in the league since 2011 and has only 1 double digit TD season. Evans already has 2. If you believe Evans is closer in terms of production to Alshon Jeffrey and Davante Adams you're being naive and ignorant at best. That's completely B.S. This 1500 yard/10 TD season you're talking about, Beckham hasn't done it. Julio hasn't done it. By your own logic they shouldn't be in this conversation either. So production and consistency Evans matches up and in most cases is more consistent than those guys.


Evans is an 1100yd - 8 TD WR at this point through 4 seasons. While that is very impressive (all these guys are) it's not in the same class as the guys like AB, Hopkins, Julio or OBJ.

Is Mike Evans the guy we saw in 2016? Or is more of the guy the we've seen in the 3 others? His catch rate is much lower than other WR1 around the league and you can't tell me you've been impressed with his big play ability (not saying that is ALL his fault). So the comps to Adams and Jeffery was in terms of style and the type of WRs they are. Which are big bodied guys that win the 50/50 balls and move the chains while not offering much explosion or run after catch. They require a high number of targets in order to get production b/c the provide the explosive plays that AB, Hopkins, Julio, Green, or OBJ do.

I can understand the Bucs not wanting to make Evans the highest paid WR at this moment in time and offering closer to what Hopkins got. Now if Evans goes out and has a season like he did in 2016 than sure, go pay the man since it's his turn. But with the amount of targets Evans gets barley eclipsing 1000yds doesn't excite me and it nothing more than a milestone most other WRs would also achieve if targeted that amount. If you look at some the advanced metrics like efficiency and catch rate Evans isn't a top 5 WR.

Name a WR who has been targeted close to the same or more than Evans but produced less. Names like Jarvis Landry will pop up.

Anyways, I get we disagree here. I just feel for non-QBs they need to demonstrate they are the best at their position before they are paid like it. Von Miller, Suh, Hopkins, AB, Julio, OBJ, have all done that to a degree Evans has not imo.... Yet. We'll see what happens in 2018.


Yeah, I agree. Excited to see what he brings to the table in 2018 though. I have faith in the guy that he's going to turn it up a notch again, like he did from 2015 to 2016, after slipping back a little last year.



also bootz - that YPC comes directly as a result of the depth of the routes he's sent on, nothing more, since it's obvious he doesn't gain any more and less after he catches the ball (which my YAC stat points out). He can thank Koetter for that high YPC stat more than anything else. Now, I don't have a PFF account, but the most telling stat would be Yards Per Target, or Yards per Route.

Actually, I found the stats from 2016 from another site:

Ironically, rankings of 2016 Yards Per Target (remember, this is before Jackson was here, and when Evans had his huge year):
1) Julio 10.9 Y/Tgt
2) Thielen 10.5
3) DeSean Jackson 10.03
4) Cooks
5) Graham
6) AJ Green
21) Landry
34) Cam Brate
36) Odell
42) Ted Ginn
48) Mike Evans 7.64


I'm not trying to outright bash the guy, I love him on this team, hope he puts up a huge season this year, and gets paid like crazy. But at the end of the day, I want him to be more of an explosive playmaker and somebody that fights for first downs and extra yards and who throws some stiff arms, and breaks some tackles and breaks a few big ones. The eyeball test says he doesn't do that sort of stuff, and the stats back it up. I just want to see that next level before we pay him like he's already there. If it happens in 2018, great, pay the man
Last edited by beardmcdoug on Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby PrimeMinister » Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:39 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
PrimeMinister wrote:The standard he wants Evans to reach is beyond other top tier WRs. Like MHW stayed we have no choice but to eventually make Evans the highest paid non-QB or let him walk after tagging him twice. It’ll be cheaper to sign him to that “highest player contract” ASAP as he will only get more expensive.


The FT value for the WR position is $15.7m. Which is an increase of $1.1m from the year prior ($14.6m). So let's assume it WR FT value will be around $17m next year when Evans could hypothetically be tagged. A 120% from the previous year if we tag him again for the 2020 season would be $20.4m.

2018 - $13.2m (5th year option)
2019 - $17m (FT)
2020 - $20.4m (FT)

That is what his contracts would be (fully guaranteed) for the next 3 years with no long term commitment from the Bucs and Evans basically on a year to year deal. Assuming no long term deal is reached Evans could then leave and test FA and enter the 2021 season at 28years old.

I would prefer not to go down this path with Evans, but this idea it would be cheaper to pay him $18m APY is one I'm not understanding. Certainly not in the short term. Maybe long term that is the case when Evans is closer to 30yrs old and the team has him locked into a lower #. But we all know those non-guaranteed years in NFL contract aren't worth the paper they are written on.

I just want Evans to show he's the best WR in the NFL, or atleast on par with those guys before paying him like he is. I just don't think he's done that yet is all.


You and I both agree that contract will only go higher, correct? Let's assume that Evans plays through both Franchise tag years and we want to keep him. If he still wants to be the highest paid non-QB it will be significantly more than $18M APY by that point. Therefore since we would be fools to let him walk sign him as soon as possible before the cost rises even more.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Bootz2004 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:45 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
PrimeMinister wrote:The standard he wants Evans to reach is beyond other top tier WRs. Like MHW stayed we have no choice but to eventually make Evans the highest paid non-QB or let him walk after tagging him twice. It’ll be cheaper to sign him to that “highest player contract” ASAP as he will only get more expensive.


The FT value for the WR position is $15.7m. Which is an increase of $1.1m from the year prior ($14.6m). So let's assume it WR FT value will be around $17m next year when Evans could hypothetically be tagged. A 120% from the previous year if we tag him again for the 2020 season would be $20.4m.

2018 - $13.2m (5th year option)
2019 - $17m (FT)
2020 - $20.4m (FT)

That is what his contracts would be (fully guaranteed) for the next 3 years with no long term commitment from the Bucs and Evans basically on a year to year deal. Assuming no long term deal is reached Evans could then leave and test FA and enter the 2021 season at 28years old.

I would prefer not to go down this path with Evans, but this idea it would be cheaper to pay him $18m APY is one I'm not understanding. Certainly not in the short term. Maybe long term that is the case when Evans is closer to 30yrs old and the team has him locked into a lower #. But we all know those non-guaranteed years in NFL contract aren't worth the paper they are written on.

I just want Evans to show he's the best WR in the NFL, or atleast on par with those guys before paying him like he is. I just don't think he's done that yet is all.


That's in no way cheaper than paying him the $18mil APY after this season. The 2019 & 2020 FA tags average out to $18.7mil APY. And honestly your estimate is on the low end. Those numbers likely will be higher as guys like Watkins and Beckham and Landry sign deals and guys like Green Julio sign extensions. Projecting the franchise tag that far is always wrong.

Luckily I expect the Bucs will not play hard ball with easily their most consistent offensive player over the past 4 years. He will get paid a ton and we won't have to worry about tagging him for years and years. Save it for another impending FA like Kwon or Donovan Smith or Ali.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Bootz2004 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:48 pm

beardmcdoug wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
Evans is an 1100yd - 8 TD WR at this point through 4 seasons. While that is very impressive (all these guys are) it's not in the same class as the guys like AB, Hopkins, Julio or OBJ.

Is Mike Evans the guy we saw in 2016? Or is more of the guy the we've seen in the 3 others? His catch rate is much lower than other WR1 around the league and you can't tell me you've been impressed with his big play ability (not saying that is ALL his fault). So the comps to Adams and Jeffery was in terms of style and the type of WRs they are. Which are big bodied guys that win the 50/50 balls and move the chains while not offering much explosion or run after catch. They require a high number of targets in order to get production b/c the provide the explosive plays that AB, Hopkins, Julio, Green, or OBJ do.

I can understand the Bucs not wanting to make Evans the highest paid WR at this moment in time and offering closer to what Hopkins got. Now if Evans goes out and has a season like he did in 2016 than sure, go pay the man since it's his turn. But with the amount of targets Evans gets barley eclipsing 1000yds doesn't excite me and it nothing more than a milestone most other WRs would also achieve if targeted that amount. If you look at some the advanced metrics like efficiency and catch rate Evans isn't a top 5 WR.

Name a WR who has been targeted close to the same or more than Evans but produced less. Names like Jarvis Landry will pop up.

Anyways, I get we disagree here. I just feel for non-QBs they need to demonstrate they are the best at their position before they are paid like it. Von Miller, Suh, Hopkins, AB, Julio, OBJ, have all done that to a degree Evans has not imo.... Yet. We'll see what happens in 2018.


Yeah, I agree. Excited to see what he brings to the table in 2018 though. I have faith in the guy that he's going to turn it up a notch again, like he did from 2015 to 2016, after slipping back a little last year.



also bootz - that YPC comes directly as a result of the depth of the routes he's sent on, nothing more, since it's obvious he doesn't gain any more and less after he catches the ball (which my YAC stat points out). He can thank Koetter for that high YPC stat more than anything else. Now, I don't have a PFF account, but the most telling stat would be Yards Per Target, or Yards per Route.

Actually, I found the stats from 2016 from another site:

Ironically, rankings of 2016 Yards Per Target (remember, this is before Jackson was here, and when Evans had his huge year):
1) Julio 10.9 Y/Tgt
2) Thielen 10.5
3) DeSean Jackson 10.03
4) Cooks
5) Graham
6) AJ Green
21) Landry
34) Cam Brate
36) Odell
42) Ted Ginn
48) Mike Evans 7.64


I'm not trying to outright bash the guy, I love him on this team, hope he puts up a huge season this year, and gets paid like crazy. But at the end of the day, I want him to be more of an explosive playmaker and somebody that fights for first downs and extra yards and who throws some stiff arms, and breaks some tackles and breaks a few big ones. The eyeball test says he doesn't do that sort of stuff, and the stats back it up. I just want to see that next level before we pay him like he's already there. If it happens in 2018, great, pay the man


If his yards per target were 7.6 and his ypc that year was 13.8 that should tell you something about his YAC...Should also tell you that numbers aren't everything.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby beardmcdoug » Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:53 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
beardmcdoug wrote:
Yeah, I agree. Excited to see what he brings to the table in 2018 though. I have faith in the guy that he's going to turn it up a notch again, like he did from 2015 to 2016, after slipping back a little last year.



also bootz - that YPC comes directly as a result of the depth of the routes he's sent on, nothing more, since it's obvious he doesn't gain any more and less after he catches the ball (which my YAC stat points out). He can thank Koetter for that high YPC stat more than anything else. Now, I don't have a PFF account, but the most telling stat would be Yards Per Target, or Yards per Route.

Actually, I found the stats from 2016 from another site:

Ironically, rankings of 2016 Yards Per Target (remember, this is before Jackson was here, and when Evans had his huge year):
1) Julio 10.9 Y/Tgt
2) Thielen 10.5
3) DeSean Jackson 10.03
4) Cooks
5) Graham
6) AJ Green
21) Landry
34) Cam Brate
36) Odell
42) Ted Ginn
48) Mike Evans 7.64


I'm not trying to outright bash the guy, I love him on this team, hope he puts up a huge season this year, and gets paid like crazy. But at the end of the day, I want him to be more of an explosive playmaker and somebody that fights for first downs and extra yards and who throws some stiff arms, and breaks some tackles and breaks a few big ones. The eyeball test says he doesn't do that sort of stuff, and the stats back it up. I just want to see that next level before we pay him like he's already there. If it happens in 2018, great, pay the man


If his yards per target were 7.6 and his ypc that year was 13.8 that should tell you something about his YAC...Should also tell you that numbers aren't everything.


... that he caught 55% of his targets?

You're right numbers aren't everything, but I'm using numbers to back up my observations, which is why I specifically said, "the eyeball test says he doesn't do these things (the sort of things that take him to the next level), and the stats back it up"
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Bootz2004 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:55 pm

beardmcdoug wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
If his yards per target were 7.6 and his ypc that year was 13.8 that should tell you something about his YAC...Should also tell you that numbers aren't everything.


... that he caught 55% of his targets?

You're right numbers aren't everything, but I'm using numbers to back up my observations, which is why I specifically said, "the eyeball test says he doesn't do these things (the sort of things that take him to the next level), and the stats back it up"


Yes, the same percentage that Deandre Hopkins caught this season.
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