***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!***

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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Cheb » Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:48 pm

LavonteDavid54 wrote:One move I think would greatly benefit our defense. Is switching Kwon to outside and Beckwith inside. Each guy played there in college and for some reason Tampa had them flip flopped. Beckwith is bigger and more of a thumper. Kwon is under 230 lbs and has been banged up every year. He sometimes gets engulfed in certain games. I feel that would help immensely. David n Kwon outside with Beckwith the thumper in the middle.I think Kwon , who is a playmaker , would have more freelance room n would stay on the field more.Id also put Godwin at #2 and put Djax in slot.Get him on underneath stuff n slants take advantage of his size n quickness.


On the surface, this isn't a bad idea. However, in practice it's not great.

It is true, in college Kwon played outside and Beckwith inside. However, it's an important distinction that Kwon was a weakside linebacker, and Beckwith plays the strongside in the pros (except in case of injury or suspensions). There's a substantial difference between the two in assignment, alignment, technique, and ideal traits. I won't get into the weeds too much there in this forum; suffice to say that not many outside linebackers can or perhaps even should play both spots.

But, for the sake of argument, let's say that in base defense we keep LVD at weak, move Beck to middle, and slide Kwon to strong. Now, who comes off the field in nickle packages? Presumably Beckwith, because he's the least athletic of the three, and the one I would least like to see on Kamara or McCaffery in man coverage in the open field twice a year. So now, we move Kwon back to middle, right, at least during nickle packages? But now his keys are different, his reads are different, and he has to think more. A thinking player is a slow player, and that can bite you in subtle but costly ways. There is several very good reasons why you don't see linebackers swap between the differing linebacker positions (even though doing so could give them schematic and personnel advantages, like moving around your best pass rusher to different spots on the line), and that is one of the main ones. You don't screw with your linebackers' keys and reads if you don't have to.

I dunno. If I were the staff, it wouldn't hurt to play with the idea of Beckworth in the middle during minicamps, and see how it looks on grass. If good, add it to the toolbox. If not, table it for now.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby LavonteDavid54 » Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:09 pm

Cheb wrote:
LavonteDavid54 wrote:One move I think would greatly benefit our defense. Is switching Kwon to outside and Beckwith inside. Each guy played there in college and for some reason Tampa had them flip flopped. Beckwith is bigger and more of a thumper. Kwon is under 230 lbs and has been banged up every year. He sometimes gets engulfed in certain games. I feel that would help immensely. David n Kwon outside with Beckwith the thumper in the middle.I think Kwon , who is a playmaker , would have more freelance room n would stay on the field more.Id also put Godwin at #2 and put Djax in slot.Get him on underneath stuff n slants take advantage of his size n quickness.


On the surface, this isn't a bad idea. However, in practice it's not great.

It is true, in college Kwon played outside and Beckwith inside. However, it's an important distinction that Kwon was a weakside linebacker, and Beckwith plays the strongside in the pros (except in case of injury or suspensions). There's a substantial difference between the two in assignment, alignment, technique, and ideal traits. I won't get into the weeds too much there in this forum; suffice to say that not many outside linebackers can or perhaps even should play both spots.

But, for the sake of argument, let's say that in base defense we keep LVD at weak, move Beck to middle, and slide Kwon to strong. Now, who comes off the field in nickle packages? Presumably Beckwith, because he's the least athletic of the three, and the one I would least like to see on Kamara or McCaffery in man coverage in the open field twice a year. So now, we move Kwon back to middle, right, at least during nickle packages? But now his keys are different, his reads are different, and he has to think more. A thinking player is a slow player, and that can bite you in subtle but costly ways. There is several very good reasons why you don't see linebackers swap between the differing linebacker positions (even though doing so could give them schematic and personnel advantages, like moving around your best pass rusher to different spots on the line), and that is one of the main ones. You don't screw with your linebackers' keys and reads if you don't have to.

I dunno. If I were the staff, it wouldn't hurt to play with the idea of Beckworth in the middle during minicamps, and see how it looks on grass. If good, add it to the toolbox. If not, table it for now.

I understand that and it's why I've assumed it's partially why they keep them where they are. I just feel it could help in more ways than one. I'd like to think Kwon could handle it . This defense could be more effective in my eyes. Even with a learning curve , it would be worth it once it was learned.We get gashed for records and personal bests by offenses already.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby BayAreaBucFan25 » Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:13 pm

Or we could just switch to a 3-4 and have lvd and beckwith/Spence rushing the passer and perhaps throw raquan smith into the fold. One can dream right? Lol
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Swashy » Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:16 pm

BayAreaBucFan25 wrote:Or we could just switch to a 3-4 and have lvd and beckwith/Spence rushing the passer and perhaps throw raquan smith into the fold. One can dream right? Lol


Oh God no. No no no no no. Switching to a 3-4 would be a ****ing disaster. We can't even figure out how to create pressure with 4 pass rushers nor draft and develop effective d line talent outside of McCoy. Nevermind finding the players to execute a front with 3. Let's just start by finding ANYONE who is gonna get to the QB on somewhat consistent basis.

I mean you've got a hell of a nice dream but there's no way it happens without first being a nightmare. Not a diss, this is just the realistic aspect of it.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby BayAreaBucFan25 » Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:28 pm

Swashy wrote:
BayAreaBucFan25 wrote:Or we could just switch to a 3-4 and have lvd and beckwith/Spence rushing the passer and perhaps throw raquan smith into the fold. One can dream right? Lol


Oh God no. No no no no no. Switching to a 3-4 would be a ****ing disaster. We can't even figure out how to create pressure with 4 pass rushers nor draft and develop effective d line talent outside of McCoy. Nevermind finding the players to execute a front with 3. Let's just start by finding ANYONE who is gonna get to the QB on somewhat consistent basis.

I mean you've got a hell of a nice dream but there's no way it happens without first being a nightmare. Not a diss, this is just the realistic aspect of it.


Your absolutely right man! It's not like madden just plug and play. I just the Raquan Smith is going to be a great one that I would love to have in pewter.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Bootz2004 » Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:29 pm

BayAreaBucFan25 wrote:Or we could just switch to a 3-4 and have lvd and beckwith/Spence rushing the passer and perhaps throw raquan smith into the fold. One can dream right? Lol


We have the pieces in the front 7 to run a 3-4. We’d need a couple of pass rushers to do so but otherwise there’s a nice foundation.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby BayAreaBucFan25 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:32 am

Bootz2004 wrote:
BayAreaBucFan25 wrote:Or we could just switch to a 3-4 and have lvd and beckwith/Spence rushing the passer and perhaps throw raquan smith into the fold. One can dream right? Lol


We have the pieces in the front 7 to run a 3-4. We’d need a couple of pass rushers to do so but otherwise there’s a nice foundation.


I agree. Just don't think it will ever happen but I would be all for it.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby mdb1958 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 3:10 am

BayAreaBucFan25 wrote:
Swashy wrote:
Oh God no. No no no no no. Switching to a 3-4 would be a ****ing disaster. We can't even figure out how to create pressure with 4 pass rushers nor draft and develop effective d line talent outside of McCoy. Nevermind finding the players to execute a front with 3. Let's just start by finding ANYONE who is gonna get to the QB on somewhat consistent basis.

I mean you've got a hell of a nice dream but there's no way it happens without first being a nightmare. Not a diss, this is just the realistic aspect of it.


Your absolutely right man! It's not like madden just plug and play. I just the Raquan Smith is going to be a great one that I would love to have in pewter.


Do you think he will be better than Jewell in pass defense?
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:44 am

mdb1958 wrote:
BayAreaBucFan25 wrote:
Your absolutely right man! It's not like madden just plug and play. I just the Raquan Smith is going to be a great one that I would love to have in pewter.


Do you think he will be better than Jewell in pass defense?

Excellent question.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby real bucs fan » Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:28 am

Is Jewell supposed to be good in pass D? Cuz Barkley made him his bitch when they played. Only mentioned it, as I was watching that tape last night.
Last edited by real bucs fan on Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Deuce » Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:33 am

Bootz2004 wrote:
BayAreaBucFan25 wrote:Or we could just switch to a 3-4 and have lvd and beckwith/Spence rushing the passer and perhaps throw raquan smith into the fold. One can dream right? Lol


We have the pieces in the front 7 to run a 3-4. We’d need a couple of pass rushers to do so but otherwise there’s a nice foundation.


Not saying you're wrong but could you show your work there? List the starters...

DE
DT
DE

LOLB
MLB
MLB
ROLB
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby real bucs fan » Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:35 am

If we were to do it, Vea would move up the draft board for sure:

DE- McCoy
DT-Vea/Siliga/Baker
DE-Gholston

OLB-LVD
MLB-Kwon
MLB-Beckwith
OLB-Spence
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:36 am

Deuce wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
We have the pieces in the front 7 to run a 3-4. We’d need a couple of pass rushers to do so but otherwise there’s a nice foundation.


Not saying you're wrong but could you show your work there? List the starters...

DE -McCoy
DT - Baker
DE - Gholston

LOLB -David
MLB - Beckwith
MLB - Alexander
ROLB - Spence


Not ideal up front, but it would be a start.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Jason Bourne » Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:38 am

Deuce wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
We have the pieces in the front 7 to run a 3-4. We’d need a couple of pass rushers to do so but otherwise there’s a nice foundation.


Not saying you're wrong but could you show your work there? List the starters...

DE
DT
DE

LOLB
MLB
MLB
ROLB


Yeah we don’t have the players for a 3-4 .

Last time we did we had Broderick Thomas and Kevin Murphy as Lb’s
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:45 am

real bucs fan wrote:Is Jewell supposed to be good in pass D? Cuz Barkley made him his bitch when they played. Only mentioned it, as I was watching that tape last night.

You must not have watched the game. Jewell and Barkley dueled all night. That was one of the best games I saw all year.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Deuce » Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:49 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Deuce wrote:
Not saying you're wrong but could you show your work there? List the starters...

DE -McCoy
DT - Baker
DE - Gholston

LOLB -David
MLB - Beckwith
MLB - Alexander
ROLB - Spence


Not ideal up front, but it would be a start.


So we have McCoy, the one thing working in our defense, moving positions to something he's most likely never done before. We're relying on Baker, a guy who is known not to give full effort, to play a really physically demanding position. Gholston makes sense to me.

We have two edge rushers who combined for 1 sack this season. Kwon as a Will makes a lot of sense. I guess Beckwith could play Mike but that would have to be seen.

This wouldn't inspire much confidence in me.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Super K » Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:50 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Deuce wrote:
Not saying you're wrong but could you show your work there? List the starters...

DE -McCoy
DT - Baker
DE - Gholston

LOLB -David
MLB - Beckwith
MLB - Alexander
ROLB - Spence


Not ideal up front, but it would be a start.


That looks like **** and is essentially just a variation/different way of writing out one of our underperforming 4-3 lineups..

Baker's fatass is gone..and our LBs, specifically our outside guys, will have to change for us run a 3-4..

And to get even more specific regarding our LBs, LVD is going inside...
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:51 am

Deuce wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Not ideal up front, but it would be a start.


So we have McCoy, the one thing working in our defense, moving positions to something he's most likely never done before. We're relying on Baker, a guy who is known not to give full effort, to play a really physically demanding position. Gholston makes sense to me.

We have two edge rushers who combined for 1 sack this season. Kwon as a Will makes a lot of sense. I guess Beckwith could play Mike but that would have to be seen.

This wouldn't inspire much confidence in me.

Well this is going on what we have right now. If I wanted to switch to a 3-4, I would be targeting Vita Vea for that Nose position.

McCoy would be fine in that setup. it's not like he doesn't draw a double team already.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby DreadNaught » Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:52 am

real bucs fan wrote:If we were to do it, Vea would move up the draft board for sure:

DE- McCoy
DT-Vea/Siliga/Baker
DE-Gholston

OLB-LVD
MLB-Kwon
MLB-Beckwith
OLB-Spence


I'd swap Beckwith and LVD. I want Kwon & LVD to be my ILBs in a 3-4 running sideline to sideline as well as playing the underneath zones. Beck has the size to hold up better POA setting the edge as a 3-4 OLB and that is not role LVD is well suited for. Plus LVD and Kwon are the two nickel/sub defense LBs so keeping them off the LOS in our base (3-4) keeps their keys more consistent.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby real bucs fan » Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:54 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
real bucs fan wrote:Is Jewell supposed to be good in pass D? Cuz Barkley made him his bitch when they played. Only mentioned it, as I was watching that tape last night.

You must not have watched the game. Jewell and Barkley dueled all night. That was one of the best games I saw all year.

Barkley had over 200 yards rushing and nearly 100 receiving so more of a beatdown I'd say.

I was watching Voch Lombardis breakdown and he was pointing out how Jewell simply didn't belong on the same field as Barkley athletically. I knew Jewell was a decorated college player, but didn't realize he was supposed to be a legit prospect and coverage guy... as he surely didn't look it. But perhaps that speaks more to the guy he was supposed to cover...
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Super K » Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:58 am

DreadNaught wrote:
real bucs fan wrote:If we were to do it, Vea would move up the draft board for sure:

DE- McCoy
DT-Vea/Siliga/Baker
DE-Gholston

OLB-LVD
MLB-Kwon
MLB-Beckwith
OLB-Spence


I'd swap Beckwith and LVD. I want Kwon & LVD to be my ILBs in a 3-4 running sideline to sideline as well as playing the underneath zones. Beck has the size to hold up better POA setting the edge as a 3-4 OLB and that is not role LVD is well suited for. Plus LVD and Kwon are the two nickel/sub defense LBs so keeping them off the LOS in our base (3-4) keeps their keys more consistent.


Yeah but even Beck is out of position there..

Fact of the matter is we have 3 inside guys (Kwon/LVD/Beck)..putting one of them outside in a 3-4 is as beneficial as having Von Miller play MLB in a 4-3..

What happens is a TON more pass rushers become available, not too mention realistic and viable options, to us in the draft...
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Deuce » Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:04 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
real bucs fan wrote:If we were to do it, Vea would move up the draft board for sure:

DE- McCoy
DT-Vea/Siliga/Baker
DE-Gholston

OLB-LVD
MLB-Kwon
MLB-Beckwith
OLB-Spence


I'd swap Beckwith and LVD. I want Kwon & LVD to be my ILBs in a 3-4 running sideline to sideline as well as playing the underneath zones. Beck has the size to hold up better POA setting the edge as a 3-4 OLB and that is not role LVD is well suited for. Plus LVD and Kwon are the two nickel/sub defense LBs so keeping them off the LOS in our base (3-4) keeps their keys more consistent.


Honestly, I had to Google the position names in a 3-4 but I knew that you wanted one fast, athletic playmaking LB (apparently the Will) and one bigger, stronger guy to take on blocks and be a run clogger/stopper (apparently the Mike). I'd consider LVD, Kwon and Beckwith all to be Wills, really. But if anyone had to take on the role of Mike, it'd be Beckwith.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:05 pm

real bucs fan wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:You must not have watched the game. Jewell and Barkley dueled all night. That was one of the best games I saw all year.

Barkley had over 200 yards rushing and nearly 100 receiving so more of a beatdown I'd say.

I was watching Voch Lombardis breakdown and he was pointing out how Jewell simply didn't belong on the same field as Barkley athletically. I knew Jewell was a decorated college player, but didn't realize he was supposed to be a legit prospect and coverage guy... as he surely didn't look it. But perhaps that speaks more to the guy he was supposed to cover...

Dude.

The score was 7-5 at the half. Penn state ended up going 6-18 on third down. Don't let the stat line tell you how that game went because Iowa almost pulled off an upset on a much more talented team.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby DreadNaught » Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:07 pm

Super K wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
I'd swap Beckwith and LVD. I want Kwon & LVD to be my ILBs in a 3-4 running sideline to sideline as well as playing the underneath zones. Beck has the size to hold up better POA setting the edge as a 3-4 OLB and that is not role LVD is well suited for. Plus LVD and Kwon are the two nickel/sub defense LBs so keeping them off the LOS in our base (3-4) keeps their keys more consistent.


Yeah but even Beck is out of position there..

Fact of the matter is we have 3 inside guys (Kwon/LVD/Beck)..putting one of them outside in a 3-4 is as beneficial as having Von Miller play MLB in a 4-3..

What happens is a TON more pass rushers become available, not too mention realistic and viable options, to us in the draft...

I agree all 3 are better served playing as off the LOS LBs in a 4-3 or inside in a 3-4.

Beckwith is 6'3" 245lbs and played DE for the Bucs quite a bit in 2nd half of the season in our sub/nickel defense. Of the three, Beck is by far best candidate imo to be a 3-4 OLB since neither LVD or Kwon have the size or strength to set he edge in the run game, which the OLBs have to do in a 3-4.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Super K » Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:15 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
Super K wrote:
Yeah but even Beck is out of position there..

Fact of the matter is we have 3 inside guys (Kwon/LVD/Beck)..putting one of them outside in a 3-4 is as beneficial as having Von Miller play MLB in a 4-3..

What happens is a TON more pass rushers become available, not too mention realistic and viable options, to us in the draft...

I agree all 3 are better served playing as off the LOS LBs in a 4-3 or inside in a 3-4.

Beckwith is 6'3" 245lbs and played DE for the Bucs quite a bit in 2nd half of the season in our sub/nickel defense. Of the three, Beck is by far best candidate imo to be a 3-4 OLB since neither LVD or Kwon have the size or strength to set he edge in the run game, which the OLBs have to do in a 3-4.


For sure, if I HAD to choose one of the 3 to put on the edge it'd be Beckwith...

But imagine a LB corps of:

Spence
LVD
Beckwith
Key/Landry/Armstrong

Behind

GMac
Vea
Gholston

NOW we're talking..
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Bootz2004 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:24 pm

You guys do realize there are many variations and types of 3-4s, right?? Or maybe you don't...
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby Deuce » Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:28 pm

Deuce wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
We have the pieces in the front 7 to run a 3-4. We’d need a couple of pass rushers to do so but otherwise there’s a nice foundation.


Not saying you're wrong but could you show your work there? List the starters...

DE
DT
DE

LOLB
MLB
MLB
ROLB



Bootz2004 wrote:You guys do realize there are many variations and types of 3-4s, right?? Or maybe you don't...


And he calls out others for deflecting...
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby mdb1958 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:33 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
real bucs fan wrote:Barkley had over 200 yards rushing and nearly 100 receiving so more of a beatdown I'd say.

I was watching Voch Lombardis breakdown and he was pointing out how Jewell simply didn't belong on the same field as Barkley athletically. I knew Jewell was a decorated college player, but didn't realize he was supposed to be a legit prospect and coverage guy... as he surely didn't look it. But perhaps that speaks more to the guy he was supposed to cover...

Dude.

The score was 7-5 at the half. Penn state ended up going 6-18 on third down. Don't let the stat line tell you how that game went because Iowa almost pulled off an upset on a much more talented team.




Jewell had 16 Tackles, 3TFL's, and 2 PD's
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby DreadNaught » Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:37 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:You guys do realize there are many variations and types of 3-4s, right?? Or maybe you don't...


Yes, but what variation does not require the OLBs to set the edges vs the run?

Also, this is just an offseason discussion, so getting into specifics around things like alignment and 1-gap vs 2-gap is probably deeper into the weeds than we need to get since we're just speculating about the hypothetical here.

But as always, your astute observations are always appreciated.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2018 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Off-Season Thread!

Postby mdb1958 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 12:41 pm

Deuce wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
We have the pieces in the front 7 to run a 3-4. We’d need a couple of pass rushers to do so but otherwise there’s a nice foundation.


Not saying you're wrong but could you show your work there? List the starters...

DE Taven Bryan
DT Vea
DE Chubb

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