Your Bucs Free Agent Wish List

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Re: Your Bucs Free Agent Wish List

Postby Caradoc » Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:04 pm

We finally have a deep corps of receiving options and you guys want to let one of our best walk? If we let anyone walk, I'd say goodbye to Hump. Brate scores TD, Hump not so much. But there's no reason not to keep both. Hump won't fetch much on the market compared to Cam.

DJax is on his last contract, and misses time. He may not last two more years. You want to watch two of our top receiving options go away in the next year or two? Brate is entering his prime, and has become a dangerous receiver. Not a top 10 TE? What are you guys smoking? Last year he tied for the TD lead. This year he is 9th in yards and 7th in TDs. 8th in first downs. Last time I checked all those numbers were top 10. (Interestingly, of the 7 guys with more first downs than him, those chain moving duties, only 2 have zero fumbles like him.) In TDs, there is a 4 way tie for 2nd at 8, so he was 2 off. If just one of those numbers was top ten, maybe you could make a case he doesn't belong in that top 10. But he's there for multiple ones, and the ones that count. Not to mention he was still that productive when there was added competition for touches. He has an important job and does it damn well.

And maybe if we were in cap hell you consider this. But we aren't even close to hard up against the cap, even with signings that are coming. You pay him like the top 10 guy he is and reevaluate the team in a year or two instead of letting your depth take a hit for no reason. I can't believe there is even a discussion about this. "Tampa developed a really good player, let's not re-sign him, just like we did with Bennett."
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Re: Your Bucs Free Agent Wish List

Postby Super K » Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:14 pm

Exactly...pay him, front load/structure it so that it's essentially a 2 year deal, reevaluate in 2020...
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Re: Your Bucs Free Agent Wish List

Postby terrytate » Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:02 pm

No one has said it, but I'll throw it out there. How about letting DeSean walk? Winston has always seemed to like bigger targets and this year he didn't seem to know what to do with DJax. Use that some of that money to keep Brate and run a lineup of Evans, Godwin and Hump backed by OJ and Brate. Add a back to the mix and fortify the line as best you can.
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Re: Your Bucs Free Agent Wish List

Postby Cheb » Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:18 pm

terrytate wrote:No one has said it, but I'll throw it out there. How about letting DeSean walk? Winston has always seemed to like bigger targets and this year he didn't seem to know what to do with DJax. Use that some of that money to keep Brate and run a lineup of Evans, Godwin and Hump backed by OJ and Brate. Add a back to the mix and fortify the line as best you can.


Cutting DeSean would only save 3.5 million, with 7.5 million in dead money. Even if you just evaluate that decision from a financial perspective, that's not a wise move. The savings would be minimal at best.

Now, if you could find a trade partner? That's another matter entirely, because you wouldn't have the cap ramifications of cutting that large contract.

As is, I say keep him. Don't make an unnecessary hole in the roster if you don't have to. He's a good receiver, and there have been no reports of him being detrimental in the locker room as a Buccaneer.

And while I like Hump and Godwin as much as anyone here, I wouldn't think that anointing Godwin the number 2 at this point would be a wise decision.
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Re: Your Bucs Free Agent Wish List

Postby Bootz2004 » Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:51 pm

terrytate wrote:No one has said it, but I'll throw it out there. How about letting DeSean walk? Winston has always seemed to like bigger targets and this year he didn't seem to know what to do with DJax. Use that some of that money to keep Brate and run a lineup of Evans, Godwin and Hump backed by OJ and Brate. Add a back to the mix and fortify the line as best you can.


No. Djax adds an element to this team none of those other guys do. You don't get rid of talent for the heck of it. Especially trying to keep your #2 TE. When him and Winston start clicking it'll be a beautiful thing and will help open things up for everyone else. You don't open up a hole on your roster just because. Winston not knowing what to do with him is on Winston, not Djax. It's up to Winston to get better
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Re: Your Bucs Free Agent Wish List

Postby DanTurksGhost » Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:26 pm

There was a pre-season video that predicted the pairing of DeSean Jackson and Jameis Winston wouldn't work. They basically said in the video that despite Jameis lobbying for DJax hard to come here, Winston's long ball completion rate of (sorry, I don't recall off the top of my head the exact number) something like 23% is among the worst in the league (like 30th or so, again don't remember the exact numbers from his career prior to this season). The video explained that DJax led the league in separation from defenders (about 2.5 yards on average) and prefers a role as a deep ball threat, Winston likes to go deep with the ball, but he's not very good at it. The video basically said that the DJax experiment is doomed to failure because Winston will miss Jackson so often on the deep routes that it will lead to frustration and lack of production.

I will try to find the video again. It wasn't on YT, it was on some analysis site and was posted right after the Bucs signed Jackson. If anyone knows the video I'm talking about, please share the link here, it's driving me crazy trying to find it because it was pretty spot on.
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Re: Your Bucs Free Agent Wish List

Postby real bucs fan » Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:35 pm

Cheb wrote:
terrytate wrote:No one has said it, but I'll throw it out there. How about letting DeSean walk? Winston has always seemed to like bigger targets and this year he didn't seem to know what to do with DJax. Use that some of that money to keep Brate and run a lineup of Evans, Godwin and Hump backed by OJ and Brate. Add a back to the mix and fortify the line as best you can.


Cutting DeSean would only save 3.5 million, with 7.5 million in dead money. Even if you just evaluate that decision from a financial perspective, that's not a wise move. The savings would be minimal at best.

Now, if you could find a trade partner? That's another matter entirely, because you wouldn't have the cap ramifications of cutting that large contract.

As is, I say keep him. Don't make an unnecessary hole in the roster if you don't have to. He's a good receiver, and there have been no reports of him being detrimental in the locker room as a Buccaneer.

And while I like Hump and Godwin as much as anyone here, I wouldn't think that anointing Godwin the number 2 at this point would be a wise decision.

Yup, Desean gets one more shot to prove his worth. I could see Godwin beginning to steal his spot though, and then you have to wonder about the distraction of a pouting DeSean...
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Re: Your Bucs Free Agent Wish List

Postby Bootz2004 » Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:40 pm

real bucs fan wrote:
Cheb wrote:
Cutting DeSean would only save 3.5 million, with 7.5 million in dead money. Even if you just evaluate that decision from a financial perspective, that's not a wise move. The savings would be minimal at best.

Now, if you could find a trade partner? That's another matter entirely, because you wouldn't have the cap ramifications of cutting that large contract.

As is, I say keep him. Don't make an unnecessary hole in the roster if you don't have to. He's a good receiver, and there have been no reports of him being detrimental in the locker room as a Buccaneer.

And while I like Hump and Godwin as much as anyone here, I wouldn't think that anointing Godwin the number 2 at this point would be a wise decision.

Yup, Desean gets one more shot to prove his worth. I could see Godwin beginning to steal his spot though, and then you have to wonder about the distraction of a pouting DeSean...


You're still trying hard to push this narrative onto Desean Jackson. Did he snub you for an autograph or something?
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Re: Your Bucs Free Agent Wish List

Postby MJW » Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:51 pm

Deja Entendu wrote:Comparing keeping Brate vs. signing a similar player from the open market isn't comparable. It's addition of an asset we MAY be able to work in based on performance elsewhere vs. subtraction of an integral part of our offense and one of our young QB's most reliable safety nets.

I'm not going to overhype him and his ability, but what he's added to this team, specifically for Jameis, is undeniable.

Keeping him along with OJ also allows us to add another wrinkle to the offense next year. Who is to say we wouldn't work more two TE sets in now that OJ has a year under his belt.

We have the cap to keep him, without hindering our ability to sign others. Also, as it's been stated, we most likely won't get any comp pick for letting him go.

It's not like the rest of the offense is firing on all cylinders, and his value wouldn't be missed/need to be replaced. Why ruin a good thing?? Why deplete the depth chart. Because of positional cap value? **** that.


There are better uses for the resources we'd have to expend. It's that simple. We don't need wrinkles for the offense nearly as much as we need other things. It's irrelevant if we can re-sign him without hitting the cap, because the Glazers are going to spend what they're going to spend and that's that. They need to spend it elsewhere. We have lots of good young talent at the skill positions. We have screaming, glaring holes at a half-dozen positions. Pass catchers are not among them.
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Re: Your Bucs Free Agent Wish List

Postby beardmcdoug » Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:02 pm

Nah yeah, the year of rapport development has already been invested by those two - keep the guy and see what happens. Bootz is right (here) (AND ONLY HERE ;) ), at this point, this is on Winston to get better and actually hit those deep throws next year.
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Re: Your Bucs Free Agent Wish List

Postby Caradoc » Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:34 pm

MJW wrote:
Deja Entendu wrote:Comparing keeping Brate vs. signing a similar player from the open market isn't comparable. It's addition of an asset we MAY be able to work in based on performance elsewhere vs. subtraction of an integral part of our offense and one of our young QB's most reliable safety nets.

I'm not going to overhype him and his ability, but what he's added to this team, specifically for Jameis, is undeniable.

Keeping him along with OJ also allows us to add another wrinkle to the offense next year. Who is to say we wouldn't work more two TE sets in now that OJ has a year under his belt.

We have the cap to keep him, without hindering our ability to sign others. Also, as it's been stated, we most likely won't get any comp pick for letting him go.

It's not like the rest of the offense is firing on all cylinders, and his value wouldn't be missed/need to be replaced. Why ruin a good thing?? Why deplete the depth chart. Because of positional cap value? **** that.


There are better uses for the resources we'd have to expend. It's that simple. We don't need wrinkles for the offense nearly as much as we need other things. It's irrelevant if we can re-sign him without hitting the cap, because the Glazers are going to spend what they're going to spend and that's that. They need to spend it elsewhere. We have lots of good young talent at the skill positions. We have screaming, glaring holes at a half-dozen positions. Pass catchers are not among them.


No offense, but that is some seriously dumb ****. We should let Brate walk because the team won't spend a lot so hopefully this team you think can't spend right will spend a little in the right spot? Our (enormous) cap space is irrelevant in whether we can/will keep a FA?

We have enough money to, in conjunction with the draft, fix basically all our talent issues and still have room to resign the people we need, including Brate. One of the reasons we don't have holes at pass catchers is because we have Brate. But let's axe our second leading TD catcher for the past three years. The TE who is top 10 in TDs, first downs and yards. Because we have a long future with Djax. Or maybe Hump will eventually start catching TDs like Brate.

Mindsets like yours are why we let Sapp go for Booger. Why we let Bennett go.
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Re: Your Bucs Free Agent Wish List

Postby Super K » Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:41 pm

Keep preaching Caradoc, cause you ain't wrong...

We can easily, EASILY resign Brate and have enough cap space to sign high impact FAs (if any hit the market)...

Sure, we don't have to...just like we don't have to resign Evans...I mean we did draft Godwin last year...better to use that WR money on the DL..
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Re: Your Bucs Free Agent Wish List

Postby Bootz2004 » Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:29 pm

Paying top dollar for a part time player isn't smart. And Brate needs Winston way more than Winston needs Brate.
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Re: Your Bucs Free Agent Wish List

Postby real bucs fan » Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:31 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
real bucs fan wrote:Yup, Desean gets one more shot to prove his worth. I could see Godwin beginning to steal his spot though, and then you have to wonder about the distraction of a pouting DeSean...


You're still trying hard to push this narrative onto Desean Jackson. Did he snub you for an autograph or something?

You don't think DeSean would be pissed if he got benched for Godwin?
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Re: Your Bucs Free Agent Wish List

Postby Bootz2004 » Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:52 pm

real bucs fan wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
You're still trying hard to push this narrative onto Desean Jackson. Did he snub you for an autograph or something?

You don't think DeSean would be pissed if he got benched for Godwin?


I hope he would be pissed. But that will never happen
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Re: Your Bucs Free Agent Wish List

Postby real bucs fan » Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:06 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
real bucs fan wrote:You don't think DeSean would be pissed if he got benched for Godwin?


I hope he would be pissed. But that will never happen

I'd say it's more likely than not to happen at somepoint...
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Re: Your Bucs Free Agent Wish List

Postby Doctor » Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:10 pm

DanTurksGhost wrote:There was a pre-season video that predicted the pairing of DeSean Jackson and Jameis Winston wouldn't work. They basically said in the video that despite Jameis lobbying for DJax hard to come here, Winston's long ball completion rate of (sorry, I don't recall off the top of my head the exact number) something like 23% is among the worst in the league (like 30th or so, again don't remember the exact numbers from his career prior to this season). The video explained that DJax led the league in separation from defenders (about 2.5 yards on average) and prefers a role as a deep ball threat, Winston likes to go deep with the ball, but he's not very good at it. The video basically said that the DJax experiment is doomed to failure because Winston will miss Jackson so often on the deep routes that it will lead to frustration and lack of production.

I will try to find the video again. It wasn't on YT, it was on some analysis site and was posted right after the Bucs signed Jackson. If anyone knows the video I'm talking about, please share the link here, it's driving me crazy trying to find it because it was pretty spot on.

I believe it. Winston has terrible anticipation. And anticipation becomes a bigger factor the further down you are throwing the ball. I think he said something similar to that effect in the PC not too long ago.
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Re: Your Bucs Free Agent Wish List

Postby Bootz2004 » Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:43 pm

real bucs fan wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
I hope he would be pissed. But that will never happen

I'd say it's more likely than not to happen at somepoint...


No it isn't. Djax doesn't have to lose a spot for Godwin to get more involved. Both guys will play key parts moving forward. But creating unnecessary drama is stuff bad teams do.
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Re: Your Bucs Free Agent Wish List

Postby MJW » Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:26 am

Caradoc wrote:
MJW wrote:
There are better uses for the resources we'd have to expend. It's that simple. We don't need wrinkles for the offense nearly as much as we need other things. It's irrelevant if we can re-sign him without hitting the cap, because the Glazers are going to spend what they're going to spend and that's that. They need to spend it elsewhere. We have lots of good young talent at the skill positions. We have screaming, glaring holes at a half-dozen positions. Pass catchers are not among them.


No offense, but that is some seriously dumb ****. We should let Brate walk because the team won't spend a lot so hopefully this team you think can't spend right will spend a little in the right spot? Our (enormous) cap space is irrelevant in whether we can/will keep a FA?

We have enough money to, in conjunction with the draft, fix basically all our talent issues and still have room to resign the people we need, including Brate. One of the reasons we don't have holes at pass catchers is because we have Brate. But let's axe our second leading TD catcher for the past three years. The TE who is top 10 in TDs, first downs and yards. Because we have a long future with Djax. Or maybe Hump will eventually start catching TDs like Brate.

Mindsets like yours are why we let Sapp go for Booger. Why we let Bennett go.


No offense taken Caradoc. It's obvious we're speaking two different languages here.

Stop talking about how much cap space we have. It's irrelevant. We both know the Glazers are not going to come close to reaching the ceiling. If we spend HALF of what we have available this offseason, I'll be pleasantly surprised. Stop talking about $70 million. I'd be surprised if, when the dust settles, we have less than $30 million still available - and that will include Mike Evans's extension.

With this in mind, I simply don't see any value in paying a situational tight end $8+ mil APY, which is what he'll be worth to a tight end hungry team on the open market. OJ Howard is the starter. He saw 608 snaps this season, despite missing two games and playing a very limited role until week 5. He's likely to see 800+ next year. In the second half of the season, Brate saw his snaps top 50% in a game once until Howard got hurt. The game before the injury, he saw 36% of the snaps. That will only get worse for him here.

You're not dealing in reality. Reality is, you don't pay a pass-catching tight end basically Greg Olsen/Travis Kelce money to play 40% of the snaps, no matter how good he might be in that limited role. It doesn't make any sense. And not when you're realistic about how much money the team is actually going to spend. Not paying Brate and letting the promising (and cheap) Anthony Auclair ascend to the #2 role is the difference between this team signing Ziggy Ansah or looking for the next Robert Ayers on the garbage heap.
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Re: Your Bucs Free Agent Wish List

Postby UbuntuBuc » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:53 am

Bootz2004 wrote:Paying top dollar for a part time player isn't smart. And Brate needs Winston way more than Winston needs Brate.


Arguing who needs who is silly. The Brate / Winston combo has worked well. There is NO reason at this point to move on from Brate given the amount of two TE sets the team could run. Alan Cross might be listed as a tight end, but I do not see him as any kind of receiving threat at all.
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Re: Your Bucs Free Agent Wish List

Postby Bootz2004 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:12 am

UbuntuBuc wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:Paying top dollar for a part time player isn't smart. And Brate needs Winston way more than Winston needs Brate.


Arguing who needs who is silly. The Brate / Winston combo has worked well. There is NO reason at this point to move on from Brate given the amount of two TE sets the team could run. Alan Cross might be listed as a tight end, but I do not see him as any kind of receiving threat at all.


My God. Casuals stuck to this **** like glue. We don't run much 12. We use a lot of 11. When we do use 12 personnel it's to run the ball and Brate isn't used as a blocker. Stocker, Cross or Auclair are used as blockers. Brate is basically a slot receiver here. He's rarely used inline. That hinders his value unless the plan is to use him as a slot receiver full time. Given the amount of receiving talent we have you wouldn't do that. I cannot believe this much conversation is being had about a #2 TE.

And yes. Brate needs Winston. He's put Brate in a position to have the success he has had, much like Julius Thomas and Dallas Clarke with Peyton Manning(not comparing Winston to Manning).
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Re: Your Bucs Free Agent Wish List

Postby Jason Bourne » Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:16 am

Stocker was released awhile ago
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Re: Your Bucs Free Agent Wish List

Postby Bootz2004 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:21 am

Jason Bourne wrote:Agree except Stocker was released awhile ago


Correct and after that most of our 12 personnel groupings included Howard and Auclair/Cross. Not Brate. Hell even after Howard got hurt we used Cross/Auclair in those groupings.
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Re: Your Bucs Free Agent Wish List

Postby MJW » Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:42 am

By the end of the season, Brate was evolving into Howard's backup, not Howard's co-starter, for the reasons Bootz is getting at. Howard is wasted blocking. Brate can't block much. Having two tight ends on the field who aren't blockers isn't ideal except in red zone situations (which is where Brate excelled.) Otherwise it made more sense to have a 3rd receiver on the field instead.
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Re: Your Bucs Free Agent Wish List

Postby MikeC » Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:48 am

The outside receivers will be Mike Evans and DJax with Godwin getting more snaps at their expense.

Brate and Howard will be on the field a lot more next year if Howard is deemed a good run blocker. That allows Brate to play the slot (at the expense of Humphries?) and Howard will take snaps away from the blocking TE’s and help feed the dangerous concept of “Run and Gun” that Koetter wants so badly.

They both are perfect for this offense. Howard should just get more dangerous extremely as he improves if defenses don’t recognize how he will be used on any given play (blocker, outlet, deep threat) and Brate is a constant red zone and first down marker threat.

The odd man out seems to be Humphries with the emergence of Godwin, not Brate with the emergence of Howard. But thankfully, we have so many injuries that there will always be room for all healthy players come gameday.
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Re: Your Bucs Free Agent Wish List

Postby real bucs fan » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:03 am

I really do hope we keep Brate. We only scratched the surface of it, but the upside of running our offence primarily out of 12 personnel with Howard and Brate at TE, Evans and Godwin on the outside (both guys are great blockers), and then a stud in the backfield is too high.
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Re: Your Bucs Free Agent Wish List

Postby Bootz2004 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:15 am

MikeC wrote:The outside receivers will be Mike Evans and DJax with Godwin getting more snaps at their expense.

Brate and Howard will be on the field a lot more next year if Howard is deemed a good run blocker. That allows Brate to play the slot (at the expense of Humphries?) and Howard will take snaps away from the blocking TE’s and help feed the dangerous concept of “Run and Gun” that Koetter wants so badly.

They both are perfect for this offense. Howard should just get more dangerous extremely as he improves if defenses don’t recognize how he will be used on any given play (blocker, outlet, deep threat) and Brate is a constant red zone and first down marker threat.

The odd man out seems to be Humphries with the emergence of Godwin, not Brate with the emergence of Howard. But thankfully, we have so many injuries that there will always be room for all healthy players come gameday.


Howard is already a good run blocker. You wouldn't put a #2 TE in the slot more than a true slot like Hump because it limits your route tree. Hump is quicker, more agile, runs better routes and more routes is better after the catch and has better hands. You're advocating playing a backup TE in the slot more than a true slot receiver. No.
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Re: Your Bucs Free Agent Wish List

Postby MarineBuc » Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:17 pm

I like Brate as much as most fans. I want Brate to remain a Buc, but let's not forget Brate dropped a pretty simple TD pass against the Patriots...a CRUSHING drop. Some of the hyperbole over him is just silly.

Howard is the #1...bottom line. Brate will only paid as a #2 TE here...facts are facts. Also, the rise of Godwin makes Brate even more expendable.
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Re: Your Bucs Free Agent Wish List

Postby Jason Bourne » Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:19 pm

Brate is a brate TE tho
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Re: Your Bucs Free Agent Wish List

Postby Doctor » Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:04 pm

I think the offense is going to look very different next year despite having a lot of the same players. A lot of it is simply going to be due to OJ, DJax and Godwin's familiarity in the system and getting better use of DJax. With that said I expect to see a lot more of DJax in the slot. He won't be "the slot WR" per se, just get a lot more use there with Godwin outside. IIRC, DJax ran about a fifth of his routes in Philly from the slot, and he was incredibly effective. While has been vocal about his love for outside go routes, and there will be plenty of those (while Hump is in the slot), having him in the sot can really open things up more and get our better players on the field and the ball in the hands of our playmakers. Mike Evans runs about 1 of every 7 routes in the slot. So there's plenty of personnel groupings that will get everyone on the field.

One way or another we need to improve the run game and with it setting up the PA. I have no doubt that will be addressed this offseason. With the exception of the last game where Winston was trying to force yards to Evans and had some dumb picks, he really showed a much better understanding of the playbook and his progressions during the last quarter of the season. I think his completion percentage was near 70%.
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Been thanked: 146 times

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