Coach Cheb's Breakdown: Pass Pro Against the Packers

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Re: Coach Cheb's Breakdown: Pass Pro Against the Packers

Postby mdb1958 » Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:02 pm

Its easy to see from that footage that Fitz wouldnt have hesitated with taking off for the first down. Either early thru the middle with Sims or between the LT and LG a little later - leaving Martinez as the guy to stop it. Sims was watching to see what Martinez would do. One guy to beat with a blocker for a first down.
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Re: Coach Cheb's Breakdown: Pass Pro Against the Packers

Postby Buc2 » Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:38 pm

So now Bootz will pretend he watched every game on A22 and start calling anyone that didn't a casual.
Oh, and get ready for the A22 wars! This could be fun.
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Re: Coach Cheb's Breakdown: Pass Pro Against the Packers

Postby mdb1958 » Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:48 pm

The tape will either keep him in check or provide a decent argument, I'm more than all for it.
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Re: Coach Cheb's Breakdown: Pass Pro Against the Packers

Postby BucaRican » Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:27 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
MJW wrote:
THIS. IS. WINSTON'S. GAME. This is it.

Look for the primary. If humanely possible, use his arm talent to get the ball to him.
No way to get to the primary? Really? None at all? Maybe try anyway, like Cam Brate against the Panthers.
Wait, no, not this time. Look for the 2nd and 3rd reads? Nope. Never. Scramble drill.
Spin backwards, lean sideways, load up. Did someone playground-ball their way open? Use arm talent to get them the ball.
Nobody did? Okay, dump off. Wait! Too much heat! Sack.

I've All-22'd almost every snap of Winston's last couple of years. This is his entire game. He uses his brilliant arm to throw his 1st read open, unless it's a screen of some kind (ever wonder why we run so many WR screens? No progressions.) If there's no way to get the primary the ball, it becomes a playground game.

Cheb, I submit to your expertise. Are you seeing anything different here?


Yawn...

Winston was among the NFL's leading QBs outside the pocket last year, that kinda deflates your astute scouting report. He was hobbled with an ankle in Green Bay Sunday which I thought was obvious if you watch the game (or even listened to the announcers) so he wasn't as elusive as he has shown he can be.

Packers were also playing alot of Man Coverage which takes away your checkdowns. When a defense plays man coverage with either zero, single, or 2-deep safeties the offense has to win with their 3-4 primary routes or the QB needs to extend the play with is legs where a receiver can uncover or the QB can get a few yards with is legs.

Screen passes are effective vs man coverage b/c they get a blocker on the guy covering them. Teams play alot of man coverage vs the Bucs b/c Mike Evans is almost indefensible vs a Zone and you have to keep a defender mirroring him. If you watch all the A22 you claim to this would be common knowledge.

I will agree that Winston does lock onto Evans more than he should. That is a valid point. But to sensationalize that into it being 'his entire game' is extremely lazy and just makes you sound like a hater. So hate on, hater...


Well maybe Winston needs to figure out this common knowledge
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Re: Coach Cheb's Breakdown: Pass Pro Against the Packers

Postby Caradoc » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:25 am

Doctor wrote:
The only real take away from this is D Smith.


LMAO. You read all that, and decided the only takeaway was that the one guy with the least culpability was the biggest problem?

Smith is fine. Imperfect, but fine. We need improvement at guard and at playcaller.
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Re: Coach Cheb's Breakdown: Pass Pro Against the Packers

Postby Kress » Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:47 am

The coaches and coordinators aren't shown in the A22. We're going to need an A29 or something in order to continue this discussion.
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Re: Coach Cheb's Breakdown: Pass Pro Against the Packers

Postby DreadNaught » Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:10 am

Buc2 wrote:So now Bootz will pretend he watched every game on A22 and start calling anyone that didn't a casual.
Oh, and get ready for the A22 wars! This could be fun.


It would be fun imo. Video is great evidence in an argument since eye in the sky don't lie.
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Re: Coach Cheb's Breakdown: Pass Pro Against the Packers

Postby DreadNaught » Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:15 am

Caradoc wrote:
Doctor wrote:
The only real take away from this is D Smith.


LMAO. You read all that, and decided the only takeaway was that the one guy with the least culpability was the biggest problem?

Smith is fine. Imperfect, but fine. We need improvement at guard and at playcaller.


Dovavan Smith's last 2 games have been very solid and dare I say good. Unfortunately he's starting to get a Gerald McCoy type rap where he's just always the fall guy for some fans.

Smith can/needs to improve his consistency for sure and that is the only thing keeping from being a great LT for us. But the guy moves people in the run game and when he's not lazy with his feet he's a wall in pass pro. Smith is way down on the list regarding things that need to be fixed imo.
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Re: Coach Cheb's Breakdown: Pass Pro Against the Packers

Postby Bootz2004 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:34 am

DreadNaught wrote:
Caradoc wrote:
LMAO. You read all that, and decided the only takeaway was that the one guy with the least culpability was the biggest problem?

Smith is fine. Imperfect, but fine. We need improvement at guard and at playcaller.


Dovavan Smith's last 2 games have been very solid and dare I say good. Unfortunately he's starting to get a Gerald McCoy type rap where he's just always the fall guy for some fans.

Smith can/needs to improve his consistency for sure and that is the only thing keeping from being a great LT for us. But the guy moves people in the run game and when he's not lazy with his feet he's a wall in pass pro. Smith is way down on the list regarding things that need to be fixed imo.


I think the team knows what they have in D. Smith even if fans don't. As you stated he was pretty inconsistent his 1st 2 seasons and has steadily improved since. But fans will always want someone to blame. It's always the guys who play the toughest positions that get noticed and blamed the most. D. Smith is in my book a top 10 LT in this league.
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Re: Coach Cheb's Breakdown: Pass Pro Against the Packers

Postby Kress » Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:42 am

You have an LT book? I don't have one. Damn. I need to get one of those. Maybe I'll put Oher in it. He has his own movie, after all. And based upon L.T.'s sack of Theisman. It's fate.
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Re: Coach Cheb's Breakdown: Pass Pro Against the Packers

Postby The Outsider » Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:47 am

I have whole binders full of LTs.
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Re: Coach Cheb's Breakdown: Pass Pro Against the Packers

Postby terrytate » Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:16 pm

From what I've read, offensive line technique has gone in the crapper since the amount of practice time got cut in the CBA. It does make a certain amount of sense, it's got to be hard to correct the bad habits of a guy if you don't get much time in pads.
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Re: Coach Cheb's Breakdown: Pass Pro Against the Packers

Postby PrimeMinister » Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:29 pm

terrytate wrote:From what I've read, offensive line technique has gone in the crapper since the amount of practice time got cut in the CBA. It does make a certain amount of sense, it's got to be hard to correct the bad habits of a guy if you don't get much time in pads.


Also the NCAA isn’t producing NFL caliber offensive linemen anymore.

The epidemic of poor offensive line play is something we are hearing more and more about across the NFL. Some blame the practice rules imposed by the 2011 CBA, which limit both offseason practice time and the number of padded practices in which linemen can get in full-contact reps. Others point to the rise of spread offenses in college, where linemen often aren’t asked to finish blocks or even put their hand in the dirt in a three-point stance...
Geoff Schwartz, a seventh-round draft pick out of Oregon in 2008, played eight seasons in the NFL (including two with the Giants) and recalls needing a few months as a rookie to master his three-point stance, and then having to re-work it in the offseason with the help of veteran teammate Jordan Gross. But he was on the practice squad his first season, so he had time to adjust.


“In college, there is so much misdirection, and the tempo is so fast at times, you don’t even have to really block anybody because the defense is so tired,” Schwartz said. “What we’ve really lost in college is the idea of finishing. In the NFL, you have to finish to be an elite offensive lineman. In college, your goal is to get back to the line of scrimmage and snap the ball again. The mentality of not finishing in college hurts you when you get to the NFL.”


https://www.si.com/nfl/2017/09/12/troub ... touchdowns
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Re: Coach Cheb's Breakdown: Pass Pro Against the Packers

Postby Caradoc » Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:19 am

The Outsider wrote:I have whole binders full of LTs.


You're literally Hitler.
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Re: Coach Cheb's Breakdown: Pass Pro Against the Packers

Postby mdb1958 » Sat Dec 09, 2017 6:45 am

terrytate wrote:From what I've read, offensive line technique has gone in the crapper since the amount of practice time got cut in the CBA. It does make a certain amount of sense, it's got to be hard to correct the bad habits of a guy if you don't get much time in pads.


So you throw em in the ring until they're tired of getting their ass whupped, some respond and some dont.
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Re: Coach Cheb's Breakdown: Pass Pro Against the Packers

Postby Doctor » Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:23 pm

PrimeMinister wrote:
terrytate wrote:From what I've read, offensive line technique has gone in the crapper since the amount of practice time got cut in the CBA. It does make a certain amount of sense, it's got to be hard to correct the bad habits of a guy if you don't get much time in pads.


Also the NCAA isn’t producing NFL caliber offensive linemen anymore.

The epidemic of poor offensive line play is something we are hearing more and more about across the NFL. Some blame the practice rules imposed by the 2011 CBA, which limit both offseason practice time and the number of padded practices in which linemen can get in full-contact reps. Others point to the rise of spread offenses in college, where linemen often aren’t asked to finish blocks or even put their hand in the dirt in a three-point stance...
Geoff Schwartz, a seventh-round draft pick out of Oregon in 2008, played eight seasons in the NFL (including two with the Giants) and recalls needing a few months as a rookie to master his three-point stance, and then having to re-work it in the offseason with the help of veteran teammate Jordan Gross. But he was on the practice squad his first season, so he had time to adjust.


“In college, there is so much misdirection, and the tempo is so fast at times, you don’t even have to really block anybody because the defense is so tired,” Schwartz said. “What we’ve really lost in college is the idea of finishing. In the NFL, you have to finish to be an elite offensive lineman. In college, your goal is to get back to the line of scrimmage and snap the ball again. The mentality of not finishing in college hurts you when you get to the NFL.”


https://www.si.com/nfl/2017/09/12/troub ... touchdowns

Two very good points.

Won't be long until coaches begin to use some sort of shock collar like training device. Put a pad on a OL shoulder, chest, waist, thighs and feet, when they align in an incorrect position they get a little zap to the chest. Correct that poor form real fast.
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Re: Coach Cheb's Breakdown: Pass Pro Against the Packers

Postby BCULAW » Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:59 am

PrimeMinister wrote:
terrytate wrote:From what I've read, offensive line technique has gone in the crapper since the amount of practice time got cut in the CBA. It does make a certain amount of sense, it's got to be hard to correct the bad habits of a guy if you don't get much time in pads.


Also the NCAA isn’t producing NFL caliber offensive linemen anymore.

The epidemic of poor offensive line play is something we are hearing more and more about across the NFL. Some blame the practice rules imposed by the 2011 CBA, which limit both offseason practice time and the number of padded practices in which linemen can get in full-contact reps. Others point to the rise of spread offenses in college, where linemen often aren’t asked to finish blocks or even put their hand in the dirt in a three-point stance...
Geoff Schwartz, a seventh-round draft pick out of Oregon in 2008, played eight seasons in the NFL (including two with the Giants) and recalls needing a few months as a rookie to master his three-point stance, and then having to re-work it in the offseason with the help of veteran teammate Jordan Gross. But he was on the practice squad his first season, so he had time to adjust.


“In college, there is so much misdirection, and the tempo is so fast at times, you don’t even have to really block anybody because the defense is so tired,” Schwartz said. “What we’ve really lost in college is the idea of finishing. In the NFL, you have to finish to be an elite offensive lineman. In college, your goal is to get back to the line of scrimmage and snap the ball again. The mentality of not finishing in college hurts you when you get to the NFL.”


https://www.si.com/nfl/2017/09/12/troub ... touchdowns


All of this makes me wonder if an offense centered around a long-developing, vertical passing game and 5-7 step drops is a viable objective anymore. And, even if it is, why the team has not invested more heavily in the o-line to make sure the system can be successful.
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Re: Coach Cheb's Breakdown: Pass Pro Against the Packers

Postby Bootz2004 » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:02 am

BCULAW wrote:
PrimeMinister wrote:
Also the NCAA isn’t producing NFL caliber offensive linemen anymore.



https://www.si.com/nfl/2017/09/12/troub ... touchdowns


All of this makes me wonder if an offense centered around a long-developing, vertical passing game and 5-7 step drops is a viable objective anymore. And, even if it is, why the team has not invested more heavily in the o-line to make sure the system can be successful.


They had the same issues in Atlanta. Koetter's 4 verticals system with a shitty Oline.
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Re: Coach Cheb's Breakdown: Pass Pro Against the Packers

Postby Caradoc » Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:11 pm

BCULAW wrote:
PrimeMinister wrote:
Also the NCAA isn’t producing NFL caliber offensive linemen anymore.



https://www.si.com/nfl/2017/09/12/troub ... touchdowns


All of this makes me wonder if an offense centered around a long-developing, vertical passing game and 5-7 step drops is a viable objective anymore. And, even if it is, why the team has not invested more heavily in the o-line to make sure the system can be successful.


The team had (and still does) a top level RT. They went out and spent 2 early picks on Marpet and Smith and a nice contract for Sweezy. That's a substantial investment.

And with all the bitching fans do, the OL is still one of the better pass pro units in the league, both statistically and by the eyeball test. They are consistently put in crap positions but the scheme and playcalling. Upgrade those and this OL suddenly looks damn good.
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Re: Coach Cheb's Breakdown: Pass Pro Against the Packers

Postby mdb1958 » Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:08 am

Serve up another for the Lions game Cheb. Please factor in the youth of some of these guys and the fact that they arent represented with any high draft picked seasoned vets to learn from. Also make a note that the pressure our D brings in practice can bring them a false sense of accomplishment.

These guys are taking the tough road!
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Re: Coach Cheb's Breakdown: Pass Pro Against the Packers

Postby mdb1958 » Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:12 am

I keep hearing their practice and the coaches are saying good job guys good job - then they get crazy pressure in a game.
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Re: Coach Cheb's Breakdown: Pass Pro Against the Packers

Postby Deuce » Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:33 am

mdb1958 wrote:Serve up another for the Lions game Cheb. Please factor in the youth of some of these guys and the fact that they arent represented with any high draft picked seasoned vets to learn from. Also make a note that the pressure our D brings in practice can bring them a false sense of accomplishment.

These guys are taking the tough road!


lmao
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Re: Coach Cheb's Breakdown: Pass Pro Against the Packers

Postby Noles1724 » Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:54 pm

mdb1958 wrote:Serve up another for the Lions game Cheb. Please factor in the youth of some of these guys and the fact that they arent represented with any high draft picked seasoned vets to learn from. Also make a note that the pressure our D brings in practice can bring them a false sense of accomplishment.

These guys are taking the tough road!


Mdb I suggest if you want to interject your 'unique' way of 'thinking', you should probably do it yourself instead of directing someone else to do so.
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Re: Coach Cheb's Breakdown: Pass Pro Against the Packers

Postby mdb1958 » Tue Dec 12, 2017 6:52 am

Cheb, you might wanna get it cleared with Noles first!
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Re: Coach Cheb's Breakdown: Pass Pro Against the Packers

Postby Brazen331 » Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:06 am

mdb1958 wrote:Serve up another for the Lions game Cheb. Please factor in the youth of some of these guys and the fact that they arent represented with any high draft picked seasoned vets to learn from. Also make a note that the pressure our D brings in practice can bring them a false sense of accomplishment.

These guys are taking the tough road!


mdb is like that guy in the 'you can't expect your neighbors to do everything for you' commercial.
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Re: Coach Cheb's Breakdown: Pass Pro Against the Packers

Postby Noles1724 » Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:29 am

mdb1958 wrote:Cheb, you might wanna get it cleared with Noles first!


or you can stop being a lazy ass and expecting everyone else to do it for you. or maybe you're being a cheap ass and don't want to pay for the service? whatever the case.. you're being an ass.
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