Discretionay penalties.

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Discretionay penalties.

Postby Kress » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:58 am

Why? I have asked this before, but would like fresh opinions. Why can you interfere like crazy with a receiver, tackle him even, but it's okay because the ball is deemed uncatchable. But God forbid you hold a guy 35 yards away from the play. He wasn't going to do anything at that point. But the play comes back. Why isn't it uncatchable tackler?
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Re: Discretionay penalties.

Postby beardmcdoug » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:58 am

Kress wrote:Why? I have asked this before, but would like fresh opinions. Why can you interfere like crazy with a receiver, tackle him even, but it's okay because the ball is deemed uncatchable. But God forbid you hold a guy 35 yards away from the play. He wasn't going to do anything at that point. But the play comes back. Why isn't it uncatchable tackler?


it the tools "they" use to keep the Bucs down

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Re: Discretionay penalties.

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:15 am

Kress wrote:Why? I have asked this before, but would like fresh opinions. Why can you interfere like crazy with a receiver, tackle him even, but it's okay because the ball is deemed uncatchable. But God forbid you hold a guy 35 yards away from the play. He wasn't going to do anything at that point. But the play comes back. Why isn't it uncatchable tackler?



i've never liked the uncatchable thing...a foul is a foul
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Re: Discretionay penalties.

Postby IchabodCrane84 » Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:58 pm

Kress wrote:Why? I have asked this before, but would like fresh opinions. Why can you interfere like crazy with a receiver, tackle him even, but it's okay because the ball is deemed uncatchable. But God forbid you hold a guy 35 yards away from the play. He wasn't going to do anything at that point. But the play comes back. Why isn't it uncatchable tackler?


I still think watching a guy sprint his ass off toward the sideline and have him flagged for being the twelfth man because the ball was snapped when he still had one foot in the field of play is the most ridiculous penalty there is. I find it even more insane that players like Manning and Brady are called geniuses for always catching teams with this penalty.
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Re: Discretionay penalties.

Postby DanTurksGhost » Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:52 pm

Kress wrote:Why? I have asked this before, but would like fresh opinions. Why can you interfere like crazy with a receiver, tackle him even, but it's okay because the ball is deemed uncatchable. But God forbid you hold a guy 35 yards away from the play. He wasn't going to do anything at that point. But the play comes back. Why isn't it uncatchable tackler?


Defensive holding happens before the ball is released. Pass interference happens after the ball is released. If a ball is clearly uncatchable then the contact did not interfere with the receiver's ability to catch the ball, since the ball wasn't catchable.
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Re: Discretionay penalties.

Postby DanTurksGhost » Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:54 pm

IchabodCrane84 wrote:I still think watching a guy sprint his ass off toward the sideline and have him flagged for being the twelfth man because the ball was snapped when he still had one foot in the field of play is the most ridiculous penalty there is. I find it even more insane that players like Manning and Brady are called geniuses for always catching teams with this penalty.


Why? Otherwise a 12th or 13th guy could stand there on the field of play every down and hop off the field just before the ball is snapped. You're either on the field of play or you're not. If you're not supposed to be on the field, get the hell off of it.
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Re: Discretionay penalties.

Postby IchabodCrane84 » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:18 pm

DanTurksGhost wrote:
IchabodCrane84 wrote:I still think watching a guy sprint his ass off toward the sideline and have him flagged for being the twelfth man because the ball was snapped when he still had one foot in the field of play is the most ridiculous penalty there is. I find it even more insane that players like Manning and Brady are called geniuses for always catching teams with this penalty.


Why? Otherwise a 12th or 13th guy could stand there on the field of play every down and hop off the field just before the ball is snapped. You're either on the field of play or you're not. If you're not supposed to be on the field, get the hell off of it.


Intent.

We allow a quarterback to slide feet first giving himself up and ending the play. We also allow the quarterback to throw the ball past the line of scrimmage as long as some part of his body is behind it as well as hike the ball with the play clock at 0 without a delay of game penalty if it's fast enough. So, we should be able to say a player hustling off the field isn't part of the play if its obvious his presence of that half a second won't affect the play.
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Re: Discretionay penalties.

Postby DanTurksGhost » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:36 pm

IchabodCrane84 wrote:Intent.

We allow a quarterback to slide feet first giving himself up and ending the play. We also allow the quarterback to throw the ball past the line of scrimmage as long as some part of his body is behind it as well as hike the ball with the play clock at 0 without a delay of game penalty if it's fast enough. So, we should be able to say a player hustling off the field isn't part of the play if its obvious his presence of that half a second won't affect the play.


I don't see it. Either there are 12 men on the field or not. There's nothing about that which should be discretionary. There are very few penalties that are as straightforward as that one. Get off the freaking field, or take a penalty. Period.
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Re: Discretionay penalties.

Postby Teitan » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:03 pm

DanTurksGhost wrote:
IchabodCrane84 wrote:Intent.

We allow a quarterback to slide feet first giving himself up and ending the play. We also allow the quarterback to throw the ball past the line of scrimmage as long as some part of his body is behind it as well as hike the ball with the play clock at 0 without a delay of game penalty if it's fast enough. So, we should be able to say a player hustling off the field isn't part of the play if its obvious his presence of that half a second won't affect the play.


I don't see it. Either there are 12 men on the field or not. There's nothing about that which should be discretionary. There are very few penalties that are as straightforward as that one. Get off the freaking field, or take a penalty. Period.



The fat man running off the field that has one foot on because he couldn’t move fast enough for Aaron Rodgers hurry up isn’t effecting anything.
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Re: Discretionay penalties.

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:08 pm

Neither is the guy who clips someone 30 yards away from the play but he gets called.

IMO a penalty is a penalty .... intent doesn’t matter, place on field doesn’t matter
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Re: Discretionay penalties.

Postby DanTurksGhost » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:17 pm

I've never seen such pedantry in my entire life. Is this is what Bucs fans are reduced to?
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Re: Discretionay penalties.

Postby Babeinbucland » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:37 pm

DanTurksGhost wrote:I've never seen such pedantry in my entire life. Is this is what Bucs fans are reduced to?

No no no no no, not reduced to - born from
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Re: Discretionay penalties.

Postby Teitan » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:39 pm

DanTurksGhost wrote:I've never seen such pedantry in my entire life. Is this is what Bucs fans are reduced to?


I’m not calling for changes, but do I see the difference between a guy a step slow running off the field and a 12th man in position? Yes.

It’s an interesting discussion to have. You don’t have to be so personally offended by it.
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Re: Discretionay penalties.

Postby Cheb » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:04 pm

DanTurksGhost wrote:I've never seen such pedantry in my entire life. Is this is what Bucs fans are reduced to?


This is pedantry? This is nothing. Wait until the dog days between the draft and training camp, where we argue about how many TVs a house in 2017 should have, or how best to rotate in our newest guard to keep Doug Martin fresh.
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Re: Discretionay penalties.

Postby Caradoc » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:22 pm

The 12th man penalty is there to prevent subterfuge and to move the game along. It's a stupid/unfair penalty when it is held to the "get off the field in time" standard when the QB is the one who gets to decide how long you have to get off the field. IMHO the changes that were supposed to allow defensive substitutions should have all but eliminated these penalties. OTOH, if you don't have this penalty, you can have the defense standing with 12 players with two by the sideline and switching at the end of the play clock to hide their personnel and have more time to read an offense forcing the offense to wait. I wouldn't mind an "intent" caveat to it though, if someone is clearly making a legit effort to get out, and there is no other player near him or coming on field at the last second.

The "uncatchable" thing, is very rarely called. But it makes sense to have it in there.

Penalties away from the play? Before the pass is thrown, these can very clearly have a big impact by eliminating receivers, so of course they have to be called.
After the pass? You don't know how the play is going to turn out or where a player will run so you can't discount that the penalty could have an effect so it has to be called.

What gets me is two penalties:
Offensive holding. I think it should be five yards. It can be called almost at will, it is incredibly inconsistently called, and can completely derail a drive, or eliminate a huge play, often for questionable or ticky-tack calls. It gives way too much influence over the game for officials as it stands.

Pass interference spot fouls. I know there is no better way to do this, but it's still annoying that another often questionable call can hand a massive advantage to a team. Of course, if you change it to anything else people will just mug any receiver who beats them for a big gain, so it has to be a spot foul. There should be some kind of mandatory review process on these that are called for more then a certain amount of yards though. TBH, I wouldn't mind an automatic review for any penalty that effectively costs either team more than 30 or 40 yards. And all penalties should be challengable.
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Re: Discretionay penalties.

Postby deltbucs » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:31 pm

You can challenge PI in the CFL.
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Re: Discretionay penalties.

Postby Kress » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:44 pm

So for the rule sticklers, why isn't spiking the ball intentional grounding? Inside the tackle box. Didn't pass the line of scrimmage. No eligible receiver hiding up the center's ass. But it's just okay. And of course a source of potential subterfuge like what you're saying about the 12th man running off
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Re: Discretionay penalties.

Postby Alpha » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:59 pm

DanTurksGhost wrote:I've never seen such pedantry in my entire life. Is this is what Bucs fans are reduced to?



No.

This is what Buc fans on Buccaneer forums are reduced to.

Clearly, you aren't familiar with the uneducated, reactionary nit-wits that troll these places. If you think this is bad, you should listen to more Tampa "Sports talk radio".
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Re: Discretionay penalties.

Postby Alpha » Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:02 am

Kress wrote:So for the rule sticklers, why isn't spiking the ball intentional grounding? Inside the tackle box. Didn't pass the line of scrimmage. No eligible receiver hiding up the center's ass. But it's just okay. And of course a source of potential subterfuge like what you're saying about the 12th man running off



Ok.

Now you're just being attorney.
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Re: Discretionay penalties.

Postby Kress » Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:04 am

But correct.
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Re: Discretionay penalties.

Postby DanTurksGhost » Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:05 am

Cheb wrote:
DanTurksGhost wrote:I've never seen such pedantry in my entire life. Is this is what Bucs fans are reduced to?


This is pedantry? This is nothing. Wait until the dog days between the draft and training camp, where we argue about how many TVs a house in 2017 should have, or how best to rotate in our newest guard to keep Doug Martin fresh.


I disappear from the forum during that period.
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Re: Discretionay penalties.

Postby Wooden Indian » Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:17 am

Nothing wrong with this kind of discussion. It's how new ideas and understanding is born.

Also, dismissing it offhand as if you're too brilliant to waste time discussing the "whys" in life... well that is a sure way to let people know you're an ***hole.

So I suppose it can serve that purpose as well.

Bonus?
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Re: Discretionay penalties.

Postby mdb1958 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:53 am

The only thing wrong with the 12 men on the field rule is the extra training the refs get (to make it happen) when they're doing a Packer game.

Cant prove it, but I still believe it to be a fact...

When Mr Snap finger says get that ball in front of my center - you better do it.
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Re: Discretionay penalties.

Postby Patrick McIrish » Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:21 am

Kress wrote:So for the rule sticklers, why isn't spiking the ball intentional grounding? Inside the tackle box. Didn't pass the line of scrimmage. No eligible receiver hiding up the center's ass. But it's just okay.....



Um, because there's a rule in place that allows you to spike the ball to stop the clock.

These threads do better when PMI isn't in the house.
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Re: Discretionay penalties.

Postby Patrick McIrish » Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:23 am

DanTurksGhost wrote:I don't see it. Either there are 12 men on the field or not. There's nothing about that which should be discretionary. There are very few penalties that are as straightforward as that one. Get off the freaking field, or take a penalty. Period.



Correct.

The less officials have to figure "intent" the better it is for everyone.
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Re: Discretionay penalties.

Postby acmillis » Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:54 am

Kress wrote:But correct.

Wouldn't there be a receiver, "in the area" as a position player would be within a few yards?
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Re: Discretionay penalties.

Postby Deuce » Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:05 am

Oh man, this place never fails. Every time someone questions a rule, DTG comes in and acts like it was one of the ten commandments carved in stone. And then of course there's the old standby, the "why are we even discussing this" argument. This is a football discussion board ffs.

Anyway, I was talking to someone about a discretionary rule just this past weekend. The Gators QB had defenders hanging onto his ankles, so he switched the ball to his non-throwing hand and threw a weak, wobbly pass about 3 yards. He was called for intentional grounding because the ball didn't make it to the line of scrimmage. If a QB's arm is hit or they are walloped by a DL and the ball doesn't make it to the LOS, they aren't called for intentional grounding. So who decides when the defenders have effected the QB enough to warrant waiving intentional grounding?

EDIT: TIL the official grounding rules.

Rule 3, Section 22, Article 4, Item 1 has been clarified to explain that the intentional grounding rules do not apply if the defender “contacts the passer or the ball after forward movement begins,” but that grounding rules apply if the defender contacts the passer or the ball before forward movement of the ball begins.

In other words, if a defender hits the quarterback or the ball once the quarterback’s arm is moving forward, grounding rules don’t apply if, for example, the ball doesn’t land in the vicinity of an eligible receiver. (Obviously, intentional grounding never applies if the passer is out of the pocket and throws the ball beyond the line of scrimmage.) If the defender hits the quarterback or the ball before the forward movement begins, the grounding rules apply; thus, if the quarterback tries to throw it after being hit, the ball has to land in the vicinity of a receiver.

And yes, I know I'm mixing NFL and NCAA.
Last edited by Deuce on Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Discretionay penalties.

Postby Kress » Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:11 am

Patrick McIrish wrote:
DanTurksGhost wrote:I don't see it. Either there are 12 men on the field or not. There's nothing about that which should be discretionary. There are very few penalties that are as straightforward as that one. Get off the freaking field, or take a penalty. Period.



Correct.

The less officials have to figure "intent" the better it is for everyone.



We are not talking about intent when we are talking about uncatchable passes. The QB didn't intend to vastly overthrow the guy. He just did. We are looking now at the effect that screw up had on the obvious penalty that was going on. The official can claim "no harm, no foul" in that situation. It becomes a discretionary call about effect on the play, not a measure of anyone's intent.

Why there, and not with random holding 30 yards away? You can't say that the hold "could have" influenced the play, because we've already seen the play. We know how it turned out. The same as we know how the play turned out when the QB sailed an uncatchable ball out of bounds. But in only one instance does the official get discretion to dismiss the penalty as inconsequential.
Last edited by Kress on Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:13 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Discretionay penalties.

Postby NYBF » Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:55 am

Caradoc wrote:
The "uncatchable" thing, is very rarely called. But it makes sense to have it in there.



I see this far more often than "rarely."
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Re: Discretionay penalties.

Postby Noles1724 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:08 am

NYBF wrote:
Caradoc wrote:
The "uncatchable" thing, is very rarely called. But it makes sense to have it in there.



I see this far more often than "rarely."


than you definition of 'rarely' is vastly different than everyone else's. between all of the games that I've seen this year, I don't think I've seen it called +5 times combined..
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