Run. The. Table.

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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby Alpha » Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:41 am

MJW wrote:
IchabodCrane84 wrote:I hate to interrupt this interlude, but Bootz has a point. Now whether he failed to articulate it or others have failed to acknowledge it I leave you all to bitch about for the next 7 pages.

However, what players in our past have we missed out on that would have made us better this season or future seasons? Obviously great players have been drafted before us and after us. No argument there, but I distinctly remember losing out on Joe Thomas and Calvin Johnson, but neither of those players even sniffed a Super Bowl. I remember hearing Bowers and Spence were possible overall #1 draft picks before their issues and we potentially got steals, yet we didn't. I remember finding gems like Kwon and Beckwith in later rounds. I remember kind of losing the last game of the season just so we could draft Winston, and yet here we are 3-6.

I can ramble on about what ifs and the Browns drafting and paradoxes too, but point is there's no guarantees, deal with the draft when the draft gets here.

Oh and how the hell do you tell a team to lose? How do you justify that? To the fans, coaches, players? How do you not have guys go out there and not give 100%. Isn't that how guys get hurt? How do you kill a man's desire to compete, and if you can how does that man ever respect you again?

Finally, how is that if Dirk Koetter loses the locker room and enough games he should be fired, but yet we should lose more games for better draft position?


Every shitty year, this discussion happens. And every shitty year, this point has to be made. Again.

I don't think anybody is advocating for Koetter or the players trying to lose. Nor is there any expectation from anyone that they should do anything short of giving 110% in efforts to win every damn game on the schedule.

Anyone who DOES want this is an idiot.

Now that this is clear:

What we want to happen as fans has nothing to do with what happens on the field. Nobody here has the power to affect the outcome of a game.

There is a reasonable debate between the people who would rather we win every game we can, go 6-10, and draft 11th (but have "momentum" or some kind of "pride" or some other nebulous gain), versus the people who would rather we go 3-13 and draft 4th and have that (tangible) draft capital. There are arguments to be made both ways about the health of the franchise and the benefits of either approach.

That debate has NOTHING to do with our expectations for the players or coaches. Every year, people conflate the two in order to hijack the debate. Unless you are a member of the organization, your opinion does NOT influence the ultimate outcome. Fans are not players or coaches.



And tell me PLAYERS are gonna INTENTIONALLY lose a game...


Not gonna happen...right?
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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby mdb1958 » Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:08 am

in·spi·ra·tion
ˌinspəˈrāSH(ə)n/Submit
noun
1.
the process of being mentally stimulated to do or feel something, especially to do something creative.
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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby Moozician » Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:56 am

Alpha wrote:
Moozician wrote:Tanking a season to get a better draft pick is nuts. It develops perennial losers (Cleveland, Chicago, et al) that continue to struggle. Answer me this: Has New England ever tanked a season? Yet they are in the playoffs just about every year.
Parity in the NFL TRIES to give losing teams an advantage in the draft, but I've not seen too many teams whose fortunes were reversed with a higher draft pick. Hell, our own Jameis Winston hasn't turned into a savior.



Ummm...there are other, MAJOR factors that go along with Cleveland, CHI, et. al. sucking...and CHI did play for the SB more recently than we have.

I would suggest that changing coaches every couple of years (HELLO CLE, TB) as well as drafting poorly (TB) would differentiate perennial losers from teams like NE who have stability in coaching/FO as well as a history of drafting players that successfully fit their scheme.

"Tanking" is a misnomer. PLAYERS don't intentionally lose games. COACHES may put their teams in a position to not field the best talent at their disposal...but those players will try to play to the best of their ability. "Tanking" doesn't produce "perennial losers"...because there is no such thing. Those other factors are more indicative of losing organizations.

And calling Jameis a bum...which is essentially what you're saying...is a bit premature. Even by casual standards. Not that I expect better from you...

Alphie... I never called Jameis a bum... not once. All I'm saying is that just because you get a higher pick every year, that in itself doesn't fix everything. When we drafted Jameis, people thought we were an instant 12-4 team, destined for the playoffs for the next five years. So far, that hasn't happened.
And sure... I agree that being stuck on the coaching carousel isn't going to help matters.
As far as drafting goes, I STILL think we shouldn't have let Tim Ruskell go. Guy was great at his job.

I admitted YEARS ago that I'm a casual.
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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby mdb1958 » Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:41 am

After 3 weeks go by, we will see how good 6-6 looks.
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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby mdb1958 » Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:59 am

Patriots and the Bucs are the only two teams with 3 top fifty receivers.
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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby MJW » Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:23 am

mdb1958 wrote:After 3 weeks go by, we will see how good 6-6 looks.


This is a big game, at least from the perspective of making this season look respectable on paper. From 4-6, it's not too hard to imagine 7-9. From 3-7, it's much more difficult. 7-9 sits in most people's minds as mediocre. Once you hit double-digit losses, it all seems horrid.
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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby DreadNaught » Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:22 am

MJW wrote:
mdb1958 wrote:After 3 weeks go by, we will see how good 6-6 looks.


This is a big game, at least from the perspective of making this season look respectable on paper. From 4-6, it's not too hard to imagine 7-9. From 3-7, it's much more difficult. 7-9 sits in most people's minds as mediocre. Once you hit double-digit losses, it all seems horrid.


From that perspective I'd agree, although it being a big game is probably a bit of a reach considering we're 3-6 and the Fins are terrible football team. Beating Miami would obviously be a positive in that it would the Bucs first road win this season (it's week 11 :cry: ) in addition to the first time the Bucs win b2b games.

Even IF we win in Miami this Bucs team still wouldn't have a victory vs a team that is currently .500 or better. Now if we can go into Atlanta and get a win the following week I would feel much better about this team. Then going on the road for the 3rd consecutive week @Green Bay (w/out A-A-RON) would potentially get the Bucs back to 6-6 riding a 4 game win streak (3 on the road). Coming back to Ray Jay for 3 of the final 4 games. At home we've been pretty solid only giving up 15pts/game (really 12pts/game if you takeaway the garbage time TDs vs the Bears and Jets that were scored in the final 30 seconds).

I think we'll beat Miami, but then we'll see what happens when we have to play a decent team the following week in Atlanta. Last year the Bucs got a legit road win vs a good team in KC that really kick-started the team. Hopefully the Falcons games does that for us this season.
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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby ComingThisFall » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:31 pm

Kinda looking forward to the Ryan Griffin show after the upcoming loss to ATL
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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby Caradoc » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:54 pm

We should consider pulling a Lovie to get a new QB rather than worrying about winning out :D
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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby Native Son » Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:12 pm

....and now.

lol

We've arrived. :drinkingcheers:
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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby MJW » Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:13 am

Native Son wrote:....and now.

lol

We've arrived. :drinkingcheers:


MAXIMUM BUC UNLOCKED!

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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby MJW » Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:49 am

BTW, I'm getting VERY excited for the 2018 Buccaneers...GM Bruce Allen...Head Coach Gruden...the heated battle between Chase Daniel and Josh Johnson for the QB job...the two headed Sproles/Charles RB beast...

Let's do this.
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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby mdb1958 » Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:15 am

I see that most of the teams leading the league in rushing also have a quarterback that will take off at times. I think they see the damage that can be added just by taking the opportunity when it presents itself. It dont need to be very frequent, you just make a statement that if you play us this way, it will cost you. No hesitation, just do it, get up field, get your yards and move on to the next play.
Last edited by mdb1958 on Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby MJW » Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:18 am

mdb1958 wrote:I see that most of the teams leading the league in rushing also has a quarterback that will take off at times. I think they see the damage that can be added just by taking the opportunity when it presents itself. It dont need to be very frequent, you just make a statement that if you play us this way, it will cost you. No hesitation, just do it, get up field, get your yards and move on to the next play.


Sometimes you have to go for broke on a pass rush, even if you don't get there. Especially if the opposing QB is comfortable. I'd like to see Mike Smith do this more. He seems to favor controlled blitzes, and that's fine, but I'd like to see us send eight once or twice a game, if we like the matchups.
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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby mdb1958 » Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:21 am

MJW wrote:
mdb1958 wrote:I see that most of the teams leading the league in rushing also has a quarterback that will take off at times. I think they see the damage that can be added just by taking the opportunity when it presents itself. It dont need to be very frequent, you just make a statement that if you play us this way, it will cost you. No hesitation, just do it, get up field, get your yards and move on to the next play.


Sometimes you have to go for broke on a pass rush, even if you don't get there. Especially if the opposing QB is comfortable. I'd like to see Mike Smith do this more. He seems to favor controlled blitzes, and that's fine, but I'd like to see us send eight once or twice a game, if we like the matchups.


We are talking about two different things. This is more about the difference between Fitz and Winston. Scrawny white boy, evades the defense and zips upfield, big athletic black QB hesitates until sometimes disaster strikes.
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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby mdb1958 » Sat Nov 18, 2017 5:30 am

MJW wrote:
mdb1958 wrote:I see that most of the teams leading the league in rushing also has a quarterback that will take off at times. I think they see the damage that can be added just by taking the opportunity when it presents itself. It dont need to be very frequent, you just make a statement that if you play us this way, it will cost you. No hesitation, just do it, get up field, get your yards and move on to the next play.


Sometimes you have to go for broke on a pass rush, even if you don't get there. Especially if the opposing QB is comfortable. I'd like to see Mike Smith do this more. He seems to favor controlled blitzes, and that's fine, but I'd like to see us send eight once or twice a game, if we like the matchups.



As many a time as I have watched us give up a 3rd down with us covering 4 guys with 6, yeah lets do it. Problem is we usually blitz exactly who they think we might blitz. We dont send CB's or S off the edge very often.
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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby MJW » Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:01 am

mdb1958 wrote:
MJW wrote:
Sometimes you have to go for broke on a pass rush, even if you don't get there. Especially if the opposing QB is comfortable. I'd like to see Mike Smith do this more. He seems to favor controlled blitzes, and that's fine, but I'd like to see us send eight once or twice a game, if we like the matchups.



As many a time as I have watched us give up a 3rd down with us covering 4 guys with 6, yeah lets do it. Problem is we usually blitz exactly who they think we might blitz. We dont send CB's or S off the edge very often.


Yeah, I've noticed the exact same thing with the predictable blitzes...since Monte left, really.

I just did some quick research. Ronde had a couple of two-sack seasons under Raheem. JAB actually had 2 sacks for us last year. No other DB has had more than a single sack in a season for us since Monte, and half those years we didn't notch even one lone sack with a DB.

I don't expect it to change anytime soon, at least with the corners, because blitzing has never been Grimes's strength (0 career sacks) and VHIII looks like a 6th grader. It seems like Justin Evans and Chris Conte should be able to get home sometimes, though, right?

Maybe we'll draft a big corner like Fitzpatrick from Alabama, though.
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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby mdb1958 » Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:13 am

Speaking of big CB's --- see Rashaan Melvin. Remember him and his bad hamstrings?

Check Baltimore, they send the DB's.
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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby The Outsider » Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:09 pm

Lol
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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby mdb1958 » Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:50 pm

I guess we need the Falcons to beat Seattle and then we need to take care of Atlanta.
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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby real bucs fan » Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:56 pm

If...
We can somehow beat Atlanta next week
Fitz takes care of the Pack sans Rodgers
Jameis comes back fully cleared medically and legally following that
The D discovers the magic of its run last year
Doug rediscovers his game
Murray continues to hit kicks

We have a chance!
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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby sanka » Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:02 am

real bucs fan wrote:If...
We can somehow beat Atlanta next week
Fitz takes care of the Pack sans Rodgers
Jameis comes back fully cleared medically and legally following that
The D discovers the magic of its run last year
Doug rediscovers his game
Murray continues to hit kicks

We have a chance!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: With Donovan Smith at LT?
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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby mdb1958 » Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:07 am

If everything would fall perfectly, we could be one game out of the 6th seed after next week. With 5 games to go!
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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby Kress » Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:57 am

real bucs fan wrote:If...
We can somehow beat Atlanta next week
Fitz takes care of the Pack sans Rodgers
Jameis comes back fully cleared medically and legally following that
The D discovers the magic of its run last year
Doug rediscovers his game
Murray continues to hit kicks

We have a chance!



You forgot how we need everyone else to incur penalties on every play always.
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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby mdb1958 » Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:05 am

We are 9 to 2 with turnovers since Winstons last full game.
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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby ComingThisFall » Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:13 am

mdb1958 wrote:We are 9 to 2 with turnovers since Winstons last full game.


Fitz got lucky on some throws against NYJ but was pretty damn good at protecting the ball yesterday. I'm more of a fan on how he doesn't go 3 and out the whole first half of games like Winston
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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby Brazen331 » Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:30 am

mdb1958 wrote:We are 9 to 2 with turnovers since Winstons last full game.


Shows we are good enough to beat non-playoff teams with a journeyman. And it shows that Winston is what is holding this team back. Right now, Winston flat out sucks at throwing the football.

Very few clean throws, most either uncatchable or the receiver has to make a great adjustment on a misplaced ball. He needs to stop sucking on his fingers and grow up.
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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby Jason Bourne » Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:29 am

Brazen331 wrote:
mdb1958 wrote:We are 9 to 2 with turnovers since Winstons last full game.


Shows we are good enough to beat non-playoff teams with a journeyman. And it shows that Winston is what is holding this team back. Right now, Winston flat out sucks at throwing the football.

Very few clean throws, most either uncatchable or the receiver has to make a great adjustment on a misplaced ball. He needs to stop sucking on his fingers and grow up.


This
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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby Buc2 » Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:30 am

Run. The. Table. ????

Not. Going. To. Happen.
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Re: Run. The. Table.

Postby mdb1958 » Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:42 am

Brazen331 wrote:
mdb1958 wrote:We are 9 to 2 with turnovers since Winstons last full game.


Shows we are good enough to beat non-playoff teams with a journeyman. And it shows that Winston is what is holding this team back. Right now, Winston flat out sucks at throwing the football.

Very few clean throws, most either uncatchable or the receiver has to make a great adjustment on a misplaced ball. He needs to stop sucking on his fingers and grow up.



Even with Fitz, this team shows plenty of not working right. Both sides of the ball have issues.
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