REPORT: Bucs brass involved in several private meetings

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Re: REPORT: Bucs brass involved in several private meetings

Postby Jason Bourne » Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:01 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:What if I say that I helped my Uncle Jack off a horse today?


I would ask why he couldn’t do it himself ?
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Re: REPORT: Bucs brass involved in several private meetings

Postby MJW » Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:32 am

Caradoc wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
Coaching certainly deserves blame. But how many years and regime changes are we as fans going to continue to scapegoat coaches?

We hired a young up and coming guy like Raheem who the players loved. Had some brief success before the wheels fell off and the players quit on him.

We then go and hire a disciplinarian to clean up the culture and the players play hard for a brief time before eventually quitting on the guy.

So then we go get a respected veteran NFL coach with ties to the franchises glory days. That never got going.

Finally we hire a long term NFL assistant the was about ready to get his first HC job (whether it was w/ the Bucs or somewhere else). I still think hiring Dirk was the right move.

But there is something amiss with the culture inside of OBP in that regardless of who we hire to be the HC the same thing happens 2-3 years later. So I don't know that continuing to blame the coaching is the right answer. At this point it borders on insanity to continue the same pattern of behavior.

At some point we have to look at something beyond the coaching. I feel that is just too easy of reaction and cycling through new regimes every 2 years obviously is not working. So I think there is some merit to the idea/thread that the Owners need to come out publicly at some point and send a message to the players on this team that Licht and Koetter aren't going anywhere and if this is going to turn around it's incumbent on the players to be better.


The recent coaching changes have been coincidental. Raheem never should have gotten the job he was too immature. His one successful year was incredible luck. The team obviously quit on him

Schiano was a reaction to that and despite what some fake former players insist, he didn't lose that locker room. Players may not have liked him, but they still played hard for him until the end. Schiano wasn't fired because of choice, he was fired because Freeman convinced a willing media to demonize him. After team Freeman was done with him the Glazers had no choice.

Lovie I suppose you could make an argument in hindsight that he should have had another year, but the reality was he was fielding the worst defense we had in about two decades and the team clearly quit on him.

If you want to try and blame a series of coaching changes for the quit you should look clearly at when the quitting started. It started with Raheem in his third year. That isn't a result of a "coaching carousel", the coaches before him were both here for years.

Even with Koetter now, the quitting came before the losing, and long before any thought of coaching changes.

If you want to ding the Glazers on this, it should be they need to be less involved in coaching hires. Let Licht handle the next one.


I made this point elsewhere, but the there has been ONCE since the Glazers bought the team that we had a normal coach-hiring process where we interviewed the logical candidates and hired the best one - and that was Tony Dungy.

Gruden we traded for. It worked out, but it still wasn't an orthodox process.
Raheem was promoted internally after zero effort was put into a search.
Schiano was hired while Chip Kelly was waiting for his flight out of Tampa International, and he was on NOBODY'S radar as an NFL head coach.
Lovie was given the job after nothing approximating a real search, because we were playing 90s karaoke.
Koetter was promoted internally after, again, no real search.

Not once in any of these cases did we bring in 3-5 of the best NFL head coaching candidates, interview them, and select the best one based on his interviews and resume. This is what literally every other NFL franchise does when they need a coach. The bring in the top coordinators, maybe a few positional assistants, and once in a blue moon, a top college coach. The few that deviate (the 49ers with Jim Tomsula...the Bears with Marc Trestman...nearly everyone Al Davis hired after Gruden) usually end up looking very stupid for doing so.

I don't know if that's *the* problem, but the results since Gruden speak for themselves. I don't endorse doing what everyone else is doing just to be like everyone else. But I don't think that's the same thing as saying, "Here's what other teams are doing that seems to work, maybe we should try it once?"
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Re: REPORT: Bucs brass involved in several private meetings

Postby MJW » Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:45 am

I hope that if we do need a head coach in Tampa in January, we just. conduct. a. normal. search.

We bring in the most promising coordinators. Guys like Teryl Austin, Kris Richard, Harold Goodwin, Frank Reich, Dave Toub, etc.
We bring in a few retreads who might make sense. Jim Schwartz. Pat Shurmur, Josh McDaniels, etc.
We maybe bring in some pups with bright futures and see if they're ready. Matt Nagy. Jim Bob Cooter. Todd Downing. If only to get a sense for them.

Then we hire the best one to lead the 2018 (and beyond) Tampa Bay Buccaneers.

No mid-level college coaches.
No mediocre internal promotions for the sake of continuity.
No out-of-left-field retirees.
No coaches who are only here because they had lunch with Tony Dungy once.

And if we are going to employ an external search firm, all the damn better. The more impartial, informed voices, the better.
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Re: REPORT: Bucs brass involved in several private meetings

Postby Deuce » Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:42 am

Caradoc wrote:
Deuce wrote:
We have to get out of the "coach on the hot seat" discussion. Even before this season started, people said things like "Dirk Koetter will be on the hot seat in Tampa if they get off to a bad start."


I'd like to see some evidence of that, as I don't recall anyone stating that kind of nonsense. Maybe some Packers beat writer or something?

Even two weeks ago pretty much nobody thought he was in danger for this year, that his seat was hot next year.


Athlon Sports:

"Dirk Koetter, Tampa Bay Bucs

Expectations are going to be raised considerably for Koetter given the pieces the offense will field this season. If the team keeps tripping up however, his status could get warmer." (July)

A headline from SB Nation:

Is Dirk Koetter's Job Safe? (May)

It's harder to find articles from months ago at this point and I'm really not sure what to search for. I listen to NFL podcasts and read a lot of stuff so I hear this type of thing every year. I don't feel like I remember the last time the Bucs didn't get that "if they start poorly, their coach could be in trouble" label.

Also, you're completely off on the two weeks. Google "Dirk Koetter hot seat", there are tons of articles and a lot of them come from around the beginning of October.
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Re: REPORT: Bucs brass involved in several private meetings

Postby DreadNaught » Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:37 am

MJW wrote:
Caradoc wrote:
The recent coaching changes have been coincidental. Raheem never should have gotten the job he was too immature. His one successful year was incredible luck. The team obviously quit on him

Schiano was a reaction to that and despite what some fake former players insist, he didn't lose that locker room. Players may not have liked him, but they still played hard for him until the end. Schiano wasn't fired because of choice, he was fired because Freeman convinced a willing media to demonize him. After team Freeman was done with him the Glazers had no choice.

Lovie I suppose you could make an argument in hindsight that he should have had another year, but the reality was he was fielding the worst defense we had in about two decades and the team clearly quit on him.

If you want to try and blame a series of coaching changes for the quit you should look clearly at when the quitting started. It started with Raheem in his third year. That isn't a result of a "coaching carousel", the coaches before him were both here for years.

Even with Koetter now, the quitting came before the losing, and long before any thought of coaching changes.

If you want to ding the Glazers on this, it should be they need to be less involved in coaching hires. Let Licht handle the next one.


I made this point elsewhere, but the there has been ONCE since the Glazers bought the team that we had a normal coach-hiring process where we interviewed the logical candidates and hired the best one - and that was Tony Dungy.

Gruden we traded for. It worked out, but it still wasn't an orthodox process.
Raheem was promoted internally after zero effort was put into a search.
Schiano was hired while Chip Kelly was waiting for his flight out of Tampa International, and he was on NOBODY'S radar as an NFL head coach.
Lovie was given the job after nothing approximating a real search, because we were playing 90s karaoke.
Koetter was promoted internally after, again, no real search.

Not once in any of these cases did we bring in 3-5 of the best NFL head coaching candidates, interview them, and select the best one based on his interviews and resume. This is what literally every other NFL franchise does when they need a coach. The bring in the top coordinators, maybe a few positional assistants, and once in a blue moon, a top college coach. The few that deviate (the 49ers with Jim Tomsula...the Bears with Marc Trestman...nearly everyone Al Davis hired after Gruden) usually end up looking very stupid for doing so.

I don't know if that's *the* problem, but the results since Gruden speak for themselves. I don't endorse doing what everyone else is doing just to be like everyone else. But I don't think that's the same thing as saying, "Here's what other teams are doing that seems to work, maybe we should try it once?"


I disagree there was "no real search" with the Koetter hiring. That's not how I remember it at all. Just because Koetter made the most sense and him eventually being hired after being the OC the previous year for our rookie #1 overall pick doesn't mean the organization didn't conduct a search. We interviewed a handful of candidates including Sean McDermott (who is now a HC) and Harold Goodwin (who will be a HC soon), Koetter himself interviewed w/ the 49ers after we fired Lovie.

Perhaps that was all a charade. But when we fired Lovie after losing 4 straight to close 2015 and finishing his 2 season at 8-24 Koetter was widely considered not just a strong candidate for the Bucs, but a guy that had paid his dues in the NFL and had the resume to get his opportunity to be a HC (whether it was in 2015 w/ the Bucs, or soon thereafter with someone else.
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Re: REPORT: Bucs brass involved in several private meetings

Postby NYBF » Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:41 am

Kress wrote:
Jason Bourne wrote:
What’s funny is the wife is a lawyer now , but she used to be a reporter and columnist for a few newspapers , so my punctuation drives her crazy .



In the legal world, it can get important really quickly. Ask her about serial commas. Example: I can say Bill, Tom, and Jeff. Or Bill, Tom and Jeff. Note the absence of the comma in the second one. By all grammatical texts, either one is proper.

But what if I have billions and want to will my estate to someone. I say that I want it to go in equal parts to Bill, Tom, and Jeff. That's a third, and a third, and a third, right? But what if I say that I want it to go in equal parts to Bill, Tom and Jeff. Is that now 50% to Bill, and 50% to Tom and Jeff collectively to split? Tom and Jeff were grouped together by the lack of a comma, whereas Bill was not.....


Mother **** bill
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Re: REPORT: Bucs brass involved in several private meetings

Postby Kress » Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:19 am

NYBF wrote:
Kress wrote:

In the legal world, it can get important really quickly. Ask her about serial commas. Example: I can say Bill, Tom, and Jeff. Or Bill, Tom and Jeff. Note the absence of the comma in the second one. By all grammatical texts, either one is proper.

But what if I have billions and want to will my estate to someone. I say that I want it to go in equal parts to Bill, Tom, and Jeff. That's a third, and a third, and a third, right? But what if I say that I want it to go in equal parts to Bill, Tom and Jeff. Is that now 50% to Bill, and 50% to Tom and Jeff collectively to split? Tom and Jeff were grouped together by the lack of a comma, whereas Bill was not.....


Mother **** bill


Mother, **** Bill.
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Re: REPORT: Bucs brass involved in several private meetings

Postby Deja Entendu » Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:53 am

Kress wrote:
NYBF wrote:
Mother **** bill


Mother, **** Bill.


Mother , **** Bill
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Re: REPORT: Bucs brass involved in several private meetings

Postby Jason Bourne » Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:46 pm

Deja Entendu wrote:
Kress wrote:
Mother, **** Bill.


Mother , **** Bill


Mother , **** bill
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Re: REPORT: Bucs brass involved in several private meetings

Postby Caradoc » Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:37 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
MJW wrote:
I made this point elsewhere, but the there has been ONCE since the Glazers bought the team that we had a normal coach-hiring process where we interviewed the logical candidates and hired the best one - and that was Tony Dungy.

Gruden we traded for. It worked out, but it still wasn't an orthodox process.
Raheem was promoted internally after zero effort was put into a search.
Schiano was hired while Chip Kelly was waiting for his flight out of Tampa International, and he was on NOBODY'S radar as an NFL head coach.
Lovie was given the job after nothing approximating a real search, because we were playing 90s karaoke.
Koetter was promoted internally after, again, no real search.

Not once in any of these cases did we bring in 3-5 of the best NFL head coaching candidates, interview them, and select the best one based on his interviews and resume. This is what literally every other NFL franchise does when they need a coach. The bring in the top coordinators, maybe a few positional assistants, and once in a blue moon, a top college coach. The few that deviate (the 49ers with Jim Tomsula...the Bears with Marc Trestman...nearly everyone Al Davis hired after Gruden) usually end up looking very stupid for doing so.

I don't know if that's *the* problem, but the results since Gruden speak for themselves. I don't endorse doing what everyone else is doing just to be like everyone else. But I don't think that's the same thing as saying, "Here's what other teams are doing that seems to work, maybe we should try it once?"


I disagree there was "no real search" with the Koetter hiring. That's not how I remember it at all. Just because Koetter made the most sense and him eventually being hired after being the OC the previous year for our rookie #1 overall pick doesn't mean the organization didn't conduct a search. We interviewed a handful of candidates including Sean McDermott (who is now a HC) and Harold Goodwin (who will be a HC soon), Koetter himself interviewed w/ the 49ers after we fired Lovie.

Perhaps that was all a charade. But when we fired Lovie after losing 4 straight to close 2015 and finishing his 2 season at 8-24 Koetter was widely considered not just a strong candidate for the Bucs, but a guy that had paid his dues in the NFL and had the resume to get his opportunity to be a HC (whether it was in 2015 w/ the Bucs, or soon thereafter with someone else.


That was no real search, the Glazers wanted continuity for Jameis. Window dressing
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Re: REPORT: Bucs brass involved in several private meetings

Postby PrimeMinister » Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:59 pm

Yep, the entire narrative before Koetter was hired was “maintain continuity for Jameis”. The search was just window dressing.
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Re: REPORT: Bucs brass involved in several private meetings

Postby A Man's Part » Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:44 pm

Gruden was the most bad ass of all moves.
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Re: REPORT: Bucs brass involved in several private meetings

Postby BCULAW » Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:58 pm

A Man's Part wrote:Gruden was the most bad ass of all moves.


Even that was a bit of a "hail mary" though, wasn't it? I recall the team tried like crazy to hire Mooch, but he bailed at the last minute. They traded for Gruden to save face. I loved the move, but even his hire was a bit of a fiasco!
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Re: REPORT: Bucs brass involved in several private meetings

Postby Deja Entendu » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:01 pm

A Man's Part wrote:Gruden was the most bad ass of all moves.


I went to bed that night thinking "Damn, I guess Mooch is an ok consolation prize." I was shocked in the morning. What a wild time that was for Bucs fans.
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Re: REPORT: Bucs brass involved in several private meetings

Postby Deja Entendu » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:03 pm

BCULAW wrote:
A Man's Part wrote:Gruden was the most bad ass of all moves.


Even that was a bit of a "hail mary" though, wasn't it? I recall the team tried like crazy to hire Mooch, but he bailed at the last minute. They traded for Gruden to save face. I loved the move, but even his hire was a bit of a fiasco!


Gruden was actually always the target. Mooch and Marvin Lewis were the back ups. They were rejected by Al so they were about to send an offer to Mooch, but gave Al a final late night phone call. Deal was done by sunrise.
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Re: REPORT: Bucs brass involved in several private meetings

Postby Caradoc » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:10 pm

Marvin Lewis wasn't a backup. He was the coach McKay picked and presented to the Glazers who were righteously pissed off at him because they had already told him they didn't want another defensive HC. They were so pissed off they took the coaching search out of McKays slimy hands and did it themselves at that point and went after Gruden first, then when that didn't seem to be happening, Mariucci. But the Gruden thing came though in the 11th hour.
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Re: REPORT: Bucs brass involved in several private meetings

Postby MJW » Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:07 am

Curious which is true about what happened in 2002:

A) The Glazers either communicated their desires poorly to McKay, or pulled the rug out from him AFTER he chose another defensive coach.

B) McKay simply ignored the Glazers wishes and offered the job to Marvin Lewis anyway.

Is it known which is more accurate?
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Re: REPORT: Bucs brass involved in several private meetings

Postby Caradoc » Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:47 am

Considering how harshly the Glazers dealt with McKay I think they were clear and he tried to push Lewis on them.

That aside, it was clear the defense was fine but the offense was atrocious. If they were content with a defensive HC, why fire Dungy who was generally considered the best in the business at that time?

No, they clearly wanted some offense. McKay thought he was bigger than he was.
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Re: REPORT: Bucs brass involved in several private meetings

Postby MJW » Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:49 am

Caradoc wrote:Considering how harshly the Glazers dealt with McKay I think they were clear and he tried to push Lewis on them.

That aside, it was clear the defense was fine but the offense was atrocious. If they were content with a defensive HC, why fire Dungy who was generally considered the best in the business at that time?

No, they clearly wanted some offense. McKay thought he was bigger than he was.


I just feel like this would have been discussed before McKay even interviewed Marvin Lewis. I have no problem blaming either party, or both, or even neither. It was such an odd confluence of events though.

I would have been fine with Mooch. Mooch was a very good coach. It's now forgotten how HORRIBLE the 49ers were when he resurrected them. And it's not his fault he had Matt Millen supplying his 53 in Detroit. I agree it would have been very odd to fire Tony Dungy for Marvin Lewis.
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Re: REPORT: Bucs brass involved in several private meetings

Postby KiffininCanton » Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:09 am

McKay's proposal given the context of the time made no sense. He addressed the offensive concerns by proposing Cam Cameron be brought in as OC with Marvin Lewis as HC as part of a package deal so to speak.

Cameron at the time had no play calling experience in the NFL (and the experience he had at the college level being HC at Indiana was mediocre). Remember, many were irked just a year earlier by Dungy replacing Les Steckel with Clyde Christensen, because Christensen lacked any NFL play calling experience at the time.

On another note, one thing I wonder about that whole coaching search and it's aftermath, with it at the end of the day paying off, did that make the Glazers fall in love with the whole idea of making bold or unconventional moves when it comes to hiring head coaches?

Look at all of the hires they've made since:

Raheem: early 30's, never above position coach at NFL level, gave him the job without any outside interviews

Schiano: college coach with mediocre record at college level, big reach as NFL HC hire

Lovie: big name splash hire

Dirk: in house hire, with no serious process looking outside the building

They have never gone the conventional, interview guys around the league, hire respected coordinator route.
Last edited by KiffininCanton on Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: REPORT: Bucs brass involved in several private meetings

Postby KiffininCanton » Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:21 am

DreadNaught wrote:Former Ravens HC and NFLN talking head (also Mike Smith's brother-in-law) Brian Billick pretty much echoed Doctor's thread with comments made yesterday also. Basically saying (I'm paraphrasing) it's an institutional problem and if Ownership doesn't back the staff it creates a difficult dynamic for the staff to demand players perform.


you mean the brother-in-law of one of the coaches is saying it's not the coaches fault?

shocked
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Re: REPORT: Bucs brass involved in several private meetings

Postby MJW » Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:02 am

KiffininCanton wrote:
They have never going the conventional, interview guys around the league, hire respected coordinator route.


What I've been saying all over this thread. The last coach we hired in a conventional manner after a conventional search was Tony Dungy. With Raheem and Schiano especially, it felt like we were trying to outsmart everyone.
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Re: REPORT: Bucs brass involved in several private meetings

Postby Babeinbucland » Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:27 am

It really seems to me ever since Gruden, every single time, when searching for a new head coach their actual criteria is to spin the wheel and say: “Who is a cheap coach that might turn out to surprise people?”
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Re: REPORT: Bucs brass involved in several private meetings

Postby KiffininCanton » Fri Nov 10, 2017 2:49 am

Babeinbucland wrote:It really seems to me ever since Gruden, every single time, when searching for a new head coach their actual criteria is to spin the wheel and say: “Who is a cheap coach that might turn out to surprise people?”


Lovie wasn't the cheapest route.

the thinking for the hires in my best estimation:

Raheem: The Steelers were on the way to a Super Bowl title at the time and Tomlin was all the rage. Tomlin of course was in the Bucs organization just 3 years earlier and they didn't want to potentially also lose the "next Tomlin" (like why Jerry hired Garrett because he seen Payton leave to go onto have success as HC) as Raheem was starting to get buzz around the league.

Schiano: At the time Jim Harbaugh was all the rage as he was in the process of a 1 year transformation of the 49ers from laughing stock to playing in the NFC Championship game. So why not go the college coach with a hard nosed personality route?

Lovie: enough with experimenting with young assistant coaches and college coaches, time for a proven quantity at the NFL HC position and let's bring the Buc Ball glory days back while we're at it!

Koetter: did a good job with developing Winston his rookie year and was starting to get buzz around the league as a possible HC, as it looked like the Dolphins might hire him. The Glazers made the move to avoid a Koetter Winston divorce.


I see two themes that come up multiple times in the hires.

1. Looking for the "next fill in the blank of whoever is the hot coach at the time" (Raheem thought by many around the league to be the "next Tomlin", Schiano similar profile to Harbaugh)

2. Panic move to keep a guy in the organization who is starting to get interest around the league by giving them the HC job (Raheem and Koetter)
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Re: REPORT: Bucs brass involved in several private meetings

Postby Deja Entendu » Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:45 am

IF they fire Koetter (let's not forget there's also still a lot of of football left, and we don't know what their outside counsel is actually telling them), then I hope they have Gruden and Dungy (assuming neither are candidates) part of the process soley to highlight to candidates that the Bucs CAN be a great franchise to be a part of... because certain people may not be so eager to come here. I think that confidence will need to be instilled for some people if we fire another coach. Luckily our roster looks great on paper... if you want to blame our struggles on coaching.

What do you think Schiano had to say about the organization to his buddy in New England? Both McDaniels and Patricia showed last year they aren't taking a HC Job just because there are only 32 in the world. They know there are openings every single year.
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Re: REPORT: Bucs brass involved in several private meetings

Postby Seamen » Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:07 am

Glazers won't make a move during the season, but the rest of this season will decide the whole staffs future
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Re: REPORT: Bucs brass involved in several private meetings

Postby Deja Entendu » Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:33 am

Seamen wrote:Glazers won't make a move during the season, but the rest of this season will decide the whole staffs future


As it should, there is still way too much football left... and it will be a played under a microscope.
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Re: REPORT: Bucs brass involved in several private meetings

Postby deltbucs » Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:57 am

Caradoc wrote:I honestly can't see how anyone can think he hasn't done a very good job other than the Aguayo thing, which was a big gamble that blew up on him, but nobody would talk about it if he had hit on that.

Agreed. If his shitty moves weren't shitty, no one would call them shitty.
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Re: REPORT: Bucs brass involved in several private meetings

Postby deltbucs » Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:58 am

Kress wrote:
NYBF wrote:
Mother **** bill


Mother, **** Bill.

Let's eat Bill!

Let's eat, Bill!


Punctuation saves lives...
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Re: REPORT: Bucs brass involved in several private meetings

Postby Caradoc » Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:56 pm

"Kill, Bill" would have been a very different movie.
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