Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby Super K » Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:41 am

Caradoc wrote:Jameis in interesting in that he has, like many many QBs, traits in common with Busts. He also has traits in common with HOF QBs. A "bombs away" Coach like Koetter seems at first glance like an ideal marriage with a "bombs away" QB like Jameis, but you have to wonder if a more "opposites attract" approach might be better for Jameis' development.


Agree with you here..
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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby murdock » Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:55 am

sanka wrote:
murdock wrote:He does not appear to be a franchise QB to me. Constant turnovers and mental mistakes in critical times of games seem to be a brick wall to him being elite. He can put up a lot of yardage, but it's empty because it's ultimately in losing efforts and after the games are well out of reach. Garbage time stats look good on paper and are great for arguments sake but wins and losses are what matters and Jameis hasn't proven that he has that "clutch" gene or even the basic game management to get out of his own way. He's another Andy Dalton/Phillip Rivers type that has enough talent to put up stats and will continue on in the league for years to come, but doubtful he'll win anything for the Bucs.. simply doesn't have the mentality of a winner.

Like winning the National Championship in College as a freshman....Garbage yards? Like the almost 400 yards he put against the Bills and Hump along with the defense lost the game? He puts up yards because the coach makes him throw like 40 times a game instead of a good balance of run and pass.



Winning a natty doesn't mean much as far as the pro game is concerned otherwise recent Bama QB's would be in the highest demand.. and I don't see anyone losing much sleep over AJ McCaron who's ridden pine his entire NFL career or a John Parker Wilson Vince Young.. etc.. Jameis just doesn't have the "it" factor the absolute will to win no matter freaking what the absolute refusal to lose the game.. come to the gates of hell.. the killer instinct like the truly great leaders have.








'
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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby real bucs fan » Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:56 am

Watched Philly, St. Louis, Dallas, and Tennessee yesterday and something became clear to me. Winston just isn't as accurate as those guys, nor is he as quick getting rid of the ball. Sure he has a "big arm", but does that really help you when you can't throw it deep? So essentially, Winston is a big armed QB with spotty accuracy who can't throw the deep ball.
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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby Sammich » Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:40 am

Seamen wrote:He's shown the tools but he's not there yet..still early, if we can get a better supporting defense and a run game we can actually stick to I think then we will see more of Jameis flourishing, when he has to win the game himself he just can't do it.



Funny story- a few years ago there was this 3rd round rookie QB that was never supposed to start, but due to an unfortunate series of events he had to. During that season some of us said the young man showed some promise and that if we could ever build a team around him we might have something. We were met with arguments like, "A franchise QB doesn't need a perfect roster to be successful" and, "A franchise QB can put the team on his back and carry them to victory himself" and my personal favorite, "A franchise QB wills his team to victory". All the while refusing to give the rookie any credit for what he was able to do given the circumstances.

So now a few years later we have a first overall pick franchise QB that has been groomed to start since day 1. Now in his 3rd year that QB has a team with far more talent than that 3rd round rookie had. He has a WR/TE corp that's as good as any in the league and enough overall team talent that every football personality expected this to be a playoff team. All of that and what does this franchise QB need to improve on our 2-6 record? More talent around him.
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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby Sammich » Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:41 am

real bucs fan wrote:Watched Philly, St. Louis, Dallas, and Tennessee yesterday and something became clear to me. Winston just isn't as accurate as those guys, nor is he as quick getting rid of the ball. Sure he has a "big arm", but does that really help you when you can't throw it deep? So essentially, Winston is a big armed QB with spotty accuracy who can't throw the deep ball.


Sounds like a recipe for success.
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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby PetePierson » Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:13 pm

17-23 = Franchise QB?

Not so much.
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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby mdb1958 » Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:19 pm

PetePierson wrote:17-23 = Franchise QB?

Not so much.



I can see counting those chickens has helped your mathematics...
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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby Caradoc » Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:28 pm

sanka wrote:
murdock wrote:He does not appear to be a franchise QB to me. Constant turnovers and mental mistakes in critical times of games seem to be a brick wall to him being elite. He can put up a lot of yardage, but it's empty because it's ultimately in losing efforts and after the games are well out of reach. Garbage time stats look good on paper and are great for arguments sake but wins and losses are what matters and Jameis hasn't proven that he has that "clutch" gene or even the basic game management to get out of his own way. He's another Andy Dalton/Phillip Rivers type that has enough talent to put up stats and will continue on in the league for years to come, but doubtful he'll win anything for the Bucs.. simply doesn't have the mentality of a winner.

Like winning the National Championship in College as a freshman....Garbage yards? Like the almost 400 yards he put against the Bills and Hump along with the defense lost the game? He puts up yards because the coach makes him throw like 40 times a game instead of a good balance of run and pass.



I dunno about that. When we win games we’ve generally won low scoring, low yardage affairs. There are certainly games like Buffalo, but generally that’s not where his yardage comes from. Our losses tend to be either blowouts, or games we were dominated even though the score doesn’t look too bad. Those are the games he racks up yards in.

That’s not to say he can’t move the ball, but it certainly makes the numbers prettier than the reality of the performances.

He’s regressed. I think he’s got more talent than Dalton types, I want Koetter taken away from him and let another coach have a shot.
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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby Heisenberg » Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:17 pm

Ya we need to see him with new coach and playbook. This offense has no Rythm plays, too many long developing routes. And I can't get over that pitch call.. We actually sustain a drive, and when we get towards scoring range, 2nd and 1..oh let's call a pitch to barber..who was running down their throats..what a joke.
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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby BacksidePursuit » Tue Nov 07, 2017 12:19 am

All of that and what does this franchise QB need to improve on our 2-6 record?

A right shoulder
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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby Caradoc » Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:39 am

BacksidePursuit wrote:
All of that and what does this franchise QB need to improve on our 2-6 record?

A right shoulder
moar excuses



FIFY
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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby MJW » Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:45 am

Heisenberg wrote:Ya we need to see him with new coach and playbook. This offense has no Rythm plays, too many long developing routes. And I can't get over that pitch call.. We actually sustain a drive, and when we get towards scoring range, 2nd and 1..oh let's call a pitch to barber..who was running down their throats..what a joke.


We do, but the fact we're qualifying what he "needs" to be a franchise quarterback means he's not a franchise quarterback. I think, if we're going to pretend the term "franchise quarterback" has some actual meaning, that meaning includes not casually making such qualifications.
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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby sanka » Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:56 am

real bucs fan wrote:Watched Philly, St. Louis, Dallas, and Tennessee yesterday and something became clear to me. Winston just isn't as accurate as those guys, nor is he as quick getting rid of the ball. Sure he has a "big arm", but does that really help you when you can't throw it deep? So essentially, Winston is a big armed QB with spotty accuracy who can't throw the deep ball.


Winston will be fine....
"History is a set of lies agreed upon." - Napoleon
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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby BucaRican » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:57 am

sanka wrote:
real bucs fan wrote:Watched Philly, St. Louis, Dallas, and Tennessee yesterday and something became clear to me. Winston just isn't as accurate as those guys, nor is he as quick getting rid of the ball. Sure he has a "big arm", but does that really help you when you can't throw it deep? So essentially, Winston is a big armed QB with spotty accuracy who can't throw the deep ball.


Winston will be fine....



Said no one ever.
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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby BucaRican » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:05 am

Listening to Brian Billick this morning it is clear Jamies is not a top level QB, nor does his immediate future indicate any kind of promise. He was comparing all of the young QBs Dak, Jarred, Wentz, Watson. Saying they have made all the adjustments necessary to succeed game by game. The biggest thing those young QBs have is the ability to throw guys open or see a opening before a guy gets open and throw the ball. Something Jamies clearly lacks, he stares down his receivers and only throws to guys as he sees them open. In the NFL those guys that are open are far in between.

It's time we face the music with Jamies, while he has massive talent, he lacks that field Vision and Accuracy. What I saw this weekend made me sick. I wish someone could give me a avg time of him holding on to the ball. Also someone please give me the avg of check downs this yr. It's pretty bad and the tape is out on this offense and Winston, both which have been very well executed against.
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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby Bootz2004 » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:16 am

BucaRican wrote:Listening to Brian Billick this morning it is clear Jamies is not a top level QB, nor does his immediate future indicate any kind of promise. He was comparing all of the young QBs Dak, Jarred, Wentz, Watson. Saying they have made all the adjustments necessary to succeed game by game. The biggest thing those young QBs have is the ability to throw guys open or see a opening before a guy gets open and throw the ball. Something Jamies clearly lacks, he stares down his receivers and only throws to guys as he sees them open. In the NFL those guys that are open are far in between.

It's time we face the music with Jamies, while he has massive talent, he lacks that field Vision and Accuracy. What I saw this weekend made me sick. I wish someone could give me a avg time of him holding on to the ball. Also someone please give me the avg of check downs this yr. It's pretty bad and the tape is out on this offense and Winston, both which have been very well executed against.


LOL. I love when casuals try to pretend they know more than we all know they do. You're not smart. You're repeating someone else's opinion and trying to paint it as in depth analysis.
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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby real bucs fan » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:17 am

^Jameis just doesn't let the game come to him. Rather he tries to impose his will on the game. That worked in college, but it doesn't work in the NFL...
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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby BucaRican » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:18 am

Bootz2004 wrote:
BucaRican wrote:Listening to Brian Billick this morning it is clear Jamies is not a top level QB, nor does his immediate future indicate any kind of promise. He was comparing all of the young QBs Dak, Jarred, Wentz, Watson. Saying they have made all the adjustments necessary to succeed game by game. The biggest thing those young QBs have is the ability to throw guys open or see a opening before a guy gets open and throw the ball. Something Jamies clearly lacks, he stares down his receivers and only throws to guys as he sees them open. In the NFL those guys that are open are far in between.

It's time we face the music with Jamies, while he has massive talent, he lacks that field Vision and Accuracy. What I saw this weekend made me sick. I wish someone could give me a avg time of him holding on to the ball. Also someone please give me the avg of check downs this yr. It's pretty bad and the tape is out on this offense and Winston, both which have been very well executed against.


LOL. I love when casuals try to pretend they know more than we all know they do. You're not smart. You're repeating someone else's opinion and trying to paint it as in depth analysis.




Should I have quoted it to make you understand its not my point? Would that have helped? You clearer are blinded by other things besides seeing what is right in-front of you.
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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby Bootz2004 » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:22 am

BucaRican wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
LOL. I love when casuals try to pretend they know more than we all know they do. You're not smart. You're repeating someone else's opinion and trying to paint it as in depth analysis.




Should I have quoted it to make you understand its not my point? Would that have helped? You clearer are blinded by other things besides seeing what is right in-front of you.


Oh so who's point was the part about "we need to face the music on Jameis"?
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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby PanteraCanes » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:24 am

Bootz2004 wrote:He's already on the right track. Name me another QB in NFL history that has thrown for 4000 yards in their 1st 2 seasons...You can't. And he's well on his way to #3. I think the timing of all of this is indicative of how short-sighted people are.



Bootz2004 wrote:If you don't see the improvements Jameis has made then you don't want to see them. Shows me you're simply looking at numbers.



For the newer posters.
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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby Bootz2004 » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:25 am

real bucs fan wrote:^Jameis just doesn't let the game come to him. Rather he tries to impose his will on the game. That worked in college, but it doesn't work in the NFL...


No QB worth a damn just let's the game come to them *****. Field generals dictate the pace, get things set up in their favor. Your statement makes zero sense.
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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby Bootz2004 » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:27 am

PanteraCanes wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:He's already on the right track. Name me another QB in NFL history that has thrown for 4000 yards in their 1st 2 seasons...You can't. And he's well on his way to #3. I think the timing of all of this is indicative of how short-sighted people are.



Bootz2004 wrote:If you don't see the improvements Jameis has made then you don't want to see them. Shows me you're simply looking at numbers.



For the newer posters.


Yes thanks for showing the new posters how stupid you are that you need simple things like this explained to you. Some of you try too hard to try and get one over on me. I'm living inside a lot of your domes.
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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby BucaRican » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:34 am

Bootz2004 wrote:
BucaRican wrote:


Should I have quoted it to make you understand its not my point? Would that have helped? You clearer are blinded by other things besides seeing what is right in-front of you.


Oh so who's point was the part about "we need to face the music on Jameis"?


Well not sure why you assume I would "pretend to know more than what I know". Watching games before my very eyes and seeing a 2-6 record should be enough without "going into a in depth analysis". Also seeing other young QBs with less experience than our own succeeded at very high levels. One of which was written off as trash last year (jarred). So if by expressing what I have seen unfold before my eyes over and over makes me "not smart" than I am fine with that. But if your eyes are the very definition of insanity because you believe in fairy tails and happy endings, then good luck sir because at 2-6 with no significant progress at the QB position I will trust my eyes.
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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby Bootz2004 » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:44 am

BucaRican wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
Oh so who's point was the part about "we need to face the music on Jameis"?


Well not sure why you assume I would "pretend to know more than what I know". Watching games before my very eyes and seeing a 2-6 record should be enough without "going into a in depth analysis". Also seeing other young QBs with less experience than our own succeeded at very high levels. One of which was written off as trash last year (jarred). So if by expressing what I have seen unfold before my eyes over and over makes me "not smart" than I am fine with that. But if your eyes are the very definition of insanity because you believe in fairy tails and happy endings, then good luck sir because at 2-6 with no significant progress at the QB position I will trust my eyes.


My eyes see a young QB who's struggling and clearly injured, like Goff was his rookie year. If you were a Rams fan you would've told your fellow Rams fans it's time to face the Music on Jared. Record isn't everything. 2+ years is also not nearly enough time to write a book on a QB. If it was Drew Brees, Alex Smith, Aaron Rodgers, Matt Ryan, Eli Manning, Matt Stafford, Tyrod Taylor, Cam Newton..none of those guys would be in the league still if it were up to you. You'd tell everyone it's time to face the music.

And I said it plenty of times if you don't see improvements in his game then you just don't want to. The jump from 2015-2017 is obvious to anyone who knows football which you clearly don't.
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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby real bucs fan » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:46 am

Bootz2004 wrote:
real bucs fan wrote:^Jameis just doesn't let the game come to him. Rather he tries to impose his will on the game. That worked in college, but it doesn't work in the NFL...


No QB worth a damn just let's the game come to them *****. Field generals dictate the pace, get things set up in their favor. Your statement makes zero sense.


What I'm saying is, Jameis needs to read the D and deliver the ball to the guy who's open, as opposed to having a preconceived notion of where he's throwing it. Right now his mentality is "I'm going deep to Mike", "Gotta get this one to Desean", or "Brates my guy on 3rd downs" before they even leave the huddle.
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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby DreadNaught » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:48 am

Yes

This will be fun thread to re-visit in the future.
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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby real bucs fan » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:53 am

To be clear, in no way shape or form am I saying we should move on from Jameis. Rather, right now he's looking like a middle of the pack starter at QB as opposed to a top 5 franchise type. When looking at the young QBs in this league taken over the past 3 years, Winston isn't even top 5 among that group.

That's not to say he can't turn it around, but this offseason he needs to fix mechanics to improve his accuracy and delivery, and he needs to adopt a new mentality. That's quite alot for a QB with 3 years in the league under his belt already to accomplish.

He's looking alot more like Blake Bortles than Aaron Rodgers.
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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby Bootz2004 » Tue Nov 07, 2017 12:04 pm

real bucs fan wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
No QB worth a damn just let's the game come to them *****. Field generals dictate the pace, get things set up in their favor. Your statement makes zero sense.


What I'm saying is, Jameis needs to read the D and deliver the ball to the guy who's open, as opposed to having a preconceived notion of where he's throwing it. Right now his mentality is "I'm going deep to Mike", "Gotta get this one to Desean", or "Brates my guy on 3rd downs" before they even leave the huddle.


Wrong. Good God you simply don't care that you make yourself look like a fool whenever you discuss football. If what you say were true he wouldn't have to hold on to the ball. He wouldn't go thru progressions. He wouldn't even audible and make adjustments at the LOS pre-snap. He would also have more INTs than TDs and wouldn't have as many yards as he does. You being completely wrong is nothing new but I didn't know you were this stupid.
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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby DreadNaught » Tue Nov 07, 2017 12:23 pm

real bucs fan wrote:He's looking alot more like Blake Bortles than Aaron Rodgers.


Winston is 23. When Rodgers was 23 he was just some kid who slipped in the draft and spending his 2nd season backing up Favre, still 2 years away from starting his first NFL game at 25yrs old.

Jameis isn't broken. He's just struggling like the rest of the team while also having an injured throwing shoulder.
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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby real bucs fan » Tue Nov 07, 2017 12:38 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
real bucs fan wrote:
What I'm saying is, Jameis needs to read the D and deliver the ball to the guy who's open, as opposed to having a preconceived notion of where he's throwing it. Right now his mentality is "I'm going deep to Mike", "Gotta get this one to Desean", or "Brates my guy on 3rd downs" before they even leave the huddle.


Wrong. Good God you simply don't care that you make yourself look like a fool whenever you discuss football. If what you say were true he wouldn't have to hold on to the ball. He wouldn't go thru progressions. He wouldn't even audible and make adjustments at the LOS pre-snap. He would also have more INTs than TDs and wouldn't have as many yards as he does. You being completely wrong is nothing new but I didn't know you were this stupid.

There's literally audio evidence of this from games where players were mic'd up, where Jameis said these things in the huddle. "Mike I'm hitting you deep" etc etc the reason he holds onto the ball so long is because he's gotta wait for the route to develop. I'm not saying he does this every play mind you, just far more often than any QB I can ever remember. The guy has a preconceived notion of where he's going with the ball way more often than he should.
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