Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby BCULAW » Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:57 am

Franchise or not, he appears to have been evaluated at the Andrews Institute yesterday. Wonder if it was his call or the team’s call. As a former baseball player, I have countless former teammates who know Dr. Andrews all too well. Most have surgical scars on their shoulder or elbow as a constant reminder. Hope Jameis doesn’t join that list.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.pnj.com/amp/842487001
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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby Deuce » Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:51 am

Bootz2004 wrote:
Deuce wrote:
At some point recently he decided that he knows more about football than everyone else here, even though we've all watched a ton and most have played a little.

He also likes to argue semantics but makes a lot of mistakes when doing so, like in this situation.

I find it best to just ignore him.


I don't claim to know more than everyone. Do I know more than most? Absolutely. A lot of you make it perfectly clear everyday that you're just fans. And there's nothing wrong with that at all. But when you pretend to know more than you do you step out of your lane and embarrass yourselves. Like you did with your "analysis" courtesy of Brian Billick or RBF and his breakdown of "Scan the field throws".


And what exactly are you?
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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby PanteraCanes » Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:16 pm

PetePierson wrote:
Caradoc wrote:If everyone else is "just fans", what exactly are you then?


Some dude who works at SuperCuts but claims he's a Barber.


I still laugh about the time he had his mojo going in a thread, someone came in and agreed with him, then he jumped on them telling them how wrong they were and they knew nothing.
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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby Bootz2004 » Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:14 pm

PanteraCanes wrote:
PetePierson wrote:
Some dude who works at SuperCuts but claims he's a Barber.


I still laugh about the time he had his mojo going in a thread, someone came in and agreed with him, then he jumped on them telling them how wrong they were and they knew nothing.


Fake News
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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby PetePierson » Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:07 pm

beardmcdoug wrote:
Enough of this kind of bullshit - we're on an Internet forum talking football not on a ****ing Bravo reality show


Eat a d1ck and pull the string, Nancy. Why is no one surprised you know there is a network called; Bravo? Let alone what is aired on said channel?
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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:51 pm

From the fine folks over at r/buccaneers.

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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby Zarniwoop » Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:55 pm

honestly, it sounds like something mdb would say


and you NEVER want your quarterback to go full mdb
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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby real bucs fan » Thu Nov 09, 2017 2:03 pm

That is truly one of the most embarrassing moments I've had as a Bucs fan, and there have been lots.
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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby Buc2 » Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:35 pm

real bucs fan wrote:That is truly one of the most embarrassing moments I've had as a Bucs fan, and there have been lots.

This one is right up there as well...

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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby beardmcdoug » Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:06 pm

Buc2 wrote:
real bucs fan wrote:That is truly one of the most embarrassing moments I've had as a Bucs fan, and there have been lots.

This one is right up there as well...

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LOL I had forgotten about that
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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby Swashy » Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:15 pm

How many times are we gonna hear the same lame ass "alphabets" pre-game speech?
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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby Swashy » Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:18 pm

lmfao Pete disappears for like 3 ****ing years and then comes back when Winston looks like ass.

Don't ever let me down.
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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby kaimaru » Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:55 pm

DreadNaught wrote:Winston won't have to worry about being the highest paid player in the NFL if he doesn't improve and this team doesn't make the playoffs. He'll get a new contract, but his market value won't permit him to be the highest paid. It'll still be north of $20m per season since this is the going rate for starting QBs. But he'll have to take the next step in addition to the team doing the same if he's going to be raising the bar for QB contracts.

People **** on Matt Stafford, but the guy has taken his team to the playoffs and thrown for 30+TDs and 5k yards multiple times. Winston needs to atleast get on that level.


Slow that roll. Stafford had one season he BARELY threw for 5k (2011/5038) and only 2 seasons of 30+ TDs (2011/41 & 2015/32). Also had 4 years of 16 or more INTs (2009/20, 2011/16, 2012/17, 2013/19), over 10 INTs in every season he started 10 or more games.

He has only brought his team to the playoffs 3 times in 8 seasons with MEGATRON on his team. He is 0-3 in the playoffs with 4 TDs, 3 INTs and 2 fumbles in those games. Yes, he is right up there with Tom Brady...... He is FLACCO at best.
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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby Buc2 » Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:08 pm

Uh oh! Looks like Winston's agent is in the house. :lol:
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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby mdb1958 » Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:12 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:honestly, it sounds like something mdb would say


and you NEVER want your quarterback to go full mdb


reach

and a terrible one at that
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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby sanka » Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:10 pm

Swashy wrote:lmfao Pete disappears for like 3 ****ing years and then comes back when Winston looks like ass.

Don't ever let me down.

I know right....and another clown enooch or something like that.....there are some fans just waiting for him to fail to come back lol.
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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby BCULAW » Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:43 pm

Read an interesting article this afternoon that caused me to pause for a minute. I haven't confirmed them independently, but the article I read claimed that JW's completion percentage during his first two seasons is higher than Newton's and almost identical to Brees, Ryan's over their first 2 seasons. Now, Newton has never been particularly accurate, and I'm not claiming that Jameis is at this stage of his career, either. That said, a lot of posters have claimed that Jameis' inaccuracy will never improve and will prevent him from turning into a "franchise QB." If the stats are accurate, both Ryan and Brees have improved their accuracy considerably with time and experience (and possibly as a result of a change in schemes). Why can't Jameis?
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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby uscbucsfan » Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:57 pm

BCULAW wrote:Read an interesting article this afternoon that caused me to pause for a minute. I haven't confirmed them independently, but the article I read claimed that JW's completion percentage during his first two seasons is higher than Newton's and almost identical to Brees, Ryan's over their first 2 seasons. Now, Newton has never been particularly accurate, and I'm not claiming that Jameis is at this stage of his career, either. That said, a lot of posters have claimed that Jameis' inaccuracy will never improve and will prevent him from turning into a "franchise QB." If the stats are accurate, both Ryan and Brees have improved their accuracy considerably with time and experience (and possibly as a result of a change in schemes). Why can't Jameis?


Before Bootz comes in here to say stats are for casuals.

Stats don't tell the whole story (as I am about to back with more "stats", lol). Many of Jameis' throws that are caught are inaccurate. He often throws behind receivers, too high, too low, disrupting their route, negating chances for YAC and causing them to make acrobatic catches. Simply because they are completed doesn't mean they are accurate/good throws. Cian Fahey recently (October) said that Jameis was 29th in the NFL in accuracy. He's also throwing an "interceptable pass" every 13.5 throws, worst in the league. He's lucky that he has freakish WRs/TEs to catch some of these balls.
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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:10 pm

You want a QB controversy next summer? Sign Case Keenum.
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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby BCULAW » Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:53 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:
BCULAW wrote:Read an interesting article this afternoon that caused me to pause for a minute. I haven't confirmed them independently, but the article I read claimed that JW's completion percentage during his first two seasons is higher than Newton's and almost identical to Brees, Ryan's over their first 2 seasons. Now, Newton has never been particularly accurate, and I'm not claiming that Jameis is at this stage of his career, either. That said, a lot of posters have claimed that Jameis' inaccuracy will never improve and will prevent him from turning into a "franchise QB." If the stats are accurate, both Ryan and Brees have improved their accuracy considerably with time and experience (and possibly as a result of a change in schemes). Why can't Jameis?


Before Bootz comes in here to say stats are for casuals.

Stats don't tell the whole story (as I am about to back with more "stats", lol). Many of Jameis' throws that are caught are inaccurate. He often throws behind receivers, too high, too low, disrupting their route, negating chances for YAC and causing them to make acrobatic catches. Simply because they are completed doesn't mean they are accurate/good throws. Cian Fahey recently (October) said that Jameis was 29th in the NFL in accuracy. He's also throwing an "interceptable pass" every 13.5 throws, worst in the league. He's lucky that he has freakish WRs/TEs to catch some of these balls.


First and foremost, I am a "casual" and won't claim to be anything else when it comes to football. Ha Ha! It's all just fun for me. That said, I'm a long-time Bucs fan that grew up in Tampa. I played college baseball at UT back when the Bucs had training camp there, and used to "taxi" the players from the field back to their rooms at Res Com. I used to sell my dad's season tickets at the Old Sombrero for beer money, and then trade beers for end zone tickets from scalpers 5 minutes before game time so I could sit with the "real fans" (i.e., crazies) on Sundays. Me and my buddies would show up to the parking lots a couple of hours before game time wearing our UT baseball gear, which was guaranteed to get us some "hand out" burgers and dogs from the friendly tail gaters at the game! Now, I'm surrounded by "Skins" up here in Virginia, and it ain't easy sledding! So, even though I'm a casual, I am a bit of a die hard when it comes to my Bucs!

I get that stats don't tell the whole picture. Jameis has not passed the "eye test" for an awful lot of this season, and his play has been streaky since day one. He is not a top flight QB at the moment, and was not consistently playing like one even when his stats seemed to indicate otherwise prior to his injury. I don't buy the "garbage time" yards that some people claim he's compiled this season, though, because he has put up some big yardage numbers in close games like New England, Arizona, and NY. It appears to me that he puts up stats in chunks - long stretches of spotty play (mostly in the first half) combined with streaks of stellar play (like in the 4th quarter of the NE game). Often times, his spotty play is ABSOLUTELY the result of horribly inaccurate throws (like in the 1st half of the NE game). But, his streaky, stellar play tends to be really precise. To my eye, it is not as though he is inaccurate all the time. Rather, he seems to really be hot or cold - stretches of wild inaccuracy combined with stretches of accurate throws in bunches. As a result, my main concern is not accuracy - he CAN be accurate. It seems to me to be more a matter of consistency. How can we bring out more of the "good Jameis" and minimize or eliminate the "bad Jameis." I'd even go so far as to suggest that "good Jameis" is already elite. We just don't see enough of him.

That said, I'd suggest that my question still stands. Why can't he become more accurate? People claim that accuracy can't be taught or improved upon, but even if we presume for argument's sake that Brees and Ryan didn't throw as many "inaccurate" completions as Jameis, their completion percentages improved (in some cases dramatically) as their careers progressed, which would tend to indicate an increase in accuracy. Point is, it is not a foregone conclusion that Jameis' completion percentage can't improve. Why can't some of his "inaccurate" completions become accurate completions and his incompletions become "inaccurate completions?"

It's all speculation, of course. My only point is that so many are writing him off due to inaccuracy, but those issues, it seems, can be improved upon. Brees is a damn surgeon now, and Ryan, despite his troubles this year, has never been seen as an inaccurate QB.
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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby Caradoc » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:21 pm

Lets use two terms the Bucs use. Accuracy, and Precision. Accuracy is just completion percentage. Precision is putting the ball in the right place (hitting a guy in stride in the hands as opposed to having him slow down or dive for a pass for example)

"Accuracy" can be improved upon to a reasonable extent. Accuracy improves because of many factors, and some of them have absolutely nothing to do with throwing the ball - better decision making, better pre- and post- snap reads, being calmer in general which helps many things including mechanics, etc. And the better "precision" a QB has, the more this accuracy can increase, it has a kind of synergistic effect.

"Precision" OTOH, may see improvement, but generally much less. Either you have that or you don't. and it's purely about throwing the ball, so improving decision making doesn't improve ball placement. Maybe being calmer helps with mechanics, but it's a different issue.

Jameis sometimes makes crazy precise throws, so there is hope he can become more consistent there, but he also (and much more often) makes some emphatically NOT precise passes where he misses wide open receivers by 10+ yards.

The politically correct phrase would be that Jameis "has lots of opportunities for improvement"
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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby MJW » Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:40 pm

Yes, accuracy can improve. I can name a handful of quarterbacks who saved their careers because it DID improve - Donovan McNabb comes to mind. But more often than not, it doesn't. I'm not a QB coach. I can't say why it's so rare. But I wouldn't bank on it happening. If we could just "fix" accuracy, guys like Kyle Boller and Christian Hackenberg would be stars.
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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby PrimeMinister » Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:17 am

MJW wrote:
Cheb wrote:
If true, that is troubling. Very troubling.

He did that **** at FSU as well. I remember that Gruden pointed it out in his QB Camp special. Winston intentionally went against the design of the play, and directly in contradiction to his reads, to force the ball to his chosen target (more often than not Rashad Green).

If he is still doing that routinely in his third year of professional football, I would be epicly ****ing pissed if I was his quarterbacks coach. One, he isn't taking coaching. Two, he is trying to be smarter than the coaches. Three, he's trying to be a big damn hero. Four, he doesn't trust the offensive play design. Five, he isn't trusting his other reads to make plays. Six, it's decitful. If he can draw up a play and recite verbatim what we want and his reads and progressions, then intentionally throws that to the wind when the ball is snapped, he is ****ing himself over. And he has been told that he is ****ing himself over, and he keeps doing it.

That'd be bench worthy. Depending on how true it is, even worthy of moving on with a different option at quarterback. It would be akin to a receiver running the wrong routes because he doesn't like that route, or a corner playing man instead of the called zone.

Teams are not about individuals, and that's a selfish as **** individual thing to do.

Sorry. That kinda stuff gets me grumpy.


Cheb, is this even a question? It's obvious he pre-selects his targets in real time, and even more so on the All-22. Sometimes Koetter uses this to our advantage, like on those seam routes Evans and Brate run so well. Sometimes he tries to coach around it by calling all those pre-determined screens and hitches (usually to Humphries.) And sometimes he just lets it happen and hopes for the best. The interception he threw at the end of the first half against Carolina is a perfect example. There was no point in that route where Brate was open, or looked to come open. It wasn't a misread. Kuechly didn't do anything surprising. Brate didn't run the route poorly. He wasn't pressured. He simply decided before the ball was even snapped that he was going to throw to Brate. There's literally not other explanation. You're a high school coach, I'm sure you've had quarterbacks who do this.

The thing about it is, Winston has such a good arm, and he throws with such great anticipation, that he gets away with it much more than he should, and that probably fools him (and us) into thinking he can win like that. And it looks great when it's working, which it often is because Mike Evans has the ability of a Hall of Famer and the catch radius of a small barn. When the defense is doing a good job on the primary, we end up not scoring for 3 quarters. And it doesn't help that because he'll wait as long as he can for the primary to flash, he misses the window on the checkdowns to gain and RAC if he goes to them in the end.


That’s infuriating to read. Like Cheb said it wouldn’t be an issue of inability, but refusal to be coached. If this were true I would rather he be benched until he accepts coaching.
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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby MJW » Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:47 am

PrimeMinister wrote:
MJW wrote:
Cheb, is this even a question? It's obvious he pre-selects his targets in real time, and even more so on the All-22. Sometimes Koetter uses this to our advantage, like on those seam routes Evans and Brate run so well. Sometimes he tries to coach around it by calling all those pre-determined screens and hitches (usually to Humphries.) And sometimes he just lets it happen and hopes for the best. The interception he threw at the end of the first half against Carolina is a perfect example. There was no point in that route where Brate was open, or looked to come open. It wasn't a misread. Kuechly didn't do anything surprising. Brate didn't run the route poorly. He wasn't pressured. He simply decided before the ball was even snapped that he was going to throw to Brate. There's literally not other explanation. You're a high school coach, I'm sure you've had quarterbacks who do this.

The thing about it is, Winston has such a good arm, and he throws with such great anticipation, that he gets away with it much more than he should, and that probably fools him (and us) into thinking he can win like that. And it looks great when it's working, which it often is because Mike Evans has the ability of a Hall of Famer and the catch radius of a small barn. When the defense is doing a good job on the primary, we end up not scoring for 3 quarters. And it doesn't help that because he'll wait as long as he can for the primary to flash, he misses the window on the checkdowns to gain and RAC if he goes to them in the end.


That’s infuriating to read. Like Cheb said it wouldn’t be an issue of inability, but refusal to be coached. If this were true I would rather he be benched until he accepts coaching.


Some guys just can't do it. They just can't make their brains go through the progressions against live bullets. It's not a matter of intelligence, or willpower. They're just not wired for it. Most guys like that wash out pretty quickly. The thing about Winston is his arm is SO good that he can get away with it a lot. It also helps that the dude has played his entire NFL career with Mike Evans, and his one dominant year of college with Kelvin Benjamin. When those guys are covered, they're still open.

I've watched the all-22 of almost every game Winston has played in the NFL. I just don't see very much if any of him scanning from his first target to his secondary target to the third guy, etc. It plays out one of 4 ways:

He waits until his primary comes open and hits him (so long as it's under 30 yards)
He waits until his primary comes open, but he doesn't come open, and Winston throws it to him anyway.
His primary is initially covered, so he bounces outside the pocket and waits for someone to come sandlot-open.
He doesn't wait for his primary (often the right call), and instead dumps the ball off underneath.

That's pretty much all of Winston's throws besides the pre-determined stuff to Humphries.
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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby Nano » Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:32 am

Doesn't go through progressions, bad decision making, stares down WRs, refuses to go to other options besides Evans/Brate at times, terrible accuracy on most of his throw, inability to hit a deep ball, and does immature/stupid things more often then other QBs...

And the only arguments for him is that he's still young, has a great arm, and he's good at padding stats.


We could do better than Winston. And maybe Winston could do better on another team...
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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby Bootz2004 » Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:48 am

Nano wrote:Doesn't go through progressions, bad decision making, stares down WRs, refuses to go to other options besides Evans/Brate at times, terrible accuracy on most of his throw, inability to hit a deep ball, and does immature/stupid things more often then other QBs...

And the only arguments for him is that he's still young, has a great arm, and he's good at padding stats.


We could do better than Winston. And maybe Winston could do better on another team...


Maybe a fanbase with half a brain wouldn't choose to "highlight" the flaws he thinks he has after a 2-6 start and a shoulder injury.
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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby Alpha » Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:49 am

MJW wrote:Yes, accuracy can improve. I can name a handful of quarterbacks who saved their careers because it DID improve...


Heard an interview with Fran Tarkenton...probably 7 years ago or so...and he was flat-out convinced that "accuracy" is the one QB trait that CAN'T be improved upon or "coached up".

Don't know if he's wrong or right but it was interesting none the less...
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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby MJW » Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:54 am

Alpha wrote:
MJW wrote:Yes, accuracy can improve. I can name a handful of quarterbacks who saved their careers because it DID improve...


Heard an interview with Fran Tarkenton...probably 7 years ago or so...and he was flat-out convinced that "accuracy" is the one QB trait that CAN'T be improved upon or "coached up".

Don't know if he's wrong or right but it was interesting none the less...


It is totally possible he's right. It could be that the few QBs who've seemed to improve simply found themselves playing with better receivers/schemes. Regardless...it's pretty rare. I really wouldn't count on it from ANY quarterback no matter how talented they are.
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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby sanka » Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:12 am

Nano wrote:Doesn't go through progressions, bad decision making, stares down WRs, refuses to go to other options besides Evans/Brate at times, terrible accuracy on most of his throw, inability to hit a deep ball, and does immature/stupid things more often then other QBs...

And the only arguments for him is that he's still young, has a great arm, and he's good at padding stats.


We could do better than Winston. And maybe Winston could do better on another team...

You said this bullshit in 2015...Mr Jamarcus Russell
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Re: Is Jameis a FRANCHISE QB?

Postby Wharf Rat » Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:12 am

Bootz2004 wrote:
Nano wrote:Doesn't go through progressions, bad decision making, stares down WRs, refuses to go to other options besides Evans/Brate at times, terrible accuracy on most of his throw, inability to hit a deep ball, and does immature/stupid things more often then other QBs...

And the only arguments for him is that he's still young, has a great arm, and he's good at padding stats.


We could do better than Winston. And maybe Winston could do better on another team...


Maybe a fanbase with half a brain wouldn't choose to "highlight" the flaws he thinks he has after a 2-6 start and a shoulder injury.


What would that accomplish exactly? If we tried harder to be better fans, would that win us a few more games?

By the way, I think it's adorable that you think you're somehow more than a fan. You obviously feel the need to be important on a message board, so don't let anyone stand in your way. Shine on superfan!
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