Rapid Reactions: Week 8 17-3 L vs Carolina

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Re: Rapid Reactions: Week 8 17-3 L vs Carolina

Postby deltbucs » Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:09 pm

Super K wrote:Here's a thought I've been kicking around, so please feel free to tear it apart..

Why the hell don't we bump GMac out to DE on some obvious pass downs and bring in McDonald at the UT spot?

Clint has shown some decent, albeit sporadic, ability to cause some mayhem in the backfield..

Either GMac gets doubled leaving the DTs 1 on 1, or he gets a 1 on 1 vs a tackle..

Can't hurt to give it a whirl..

McDonald has been our best DT not named McCoy, IMO.
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Re: Rapid Reactions: Week 8 17-3 L vs Carolina

Postby Super K » Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:27 pm

deltbucs wrote:
Super K wrote:Here's a thought I've been kicking around, so please feel free to tear it apart..

Why the hell don't we bump GMac out to DE on some obvious pass downs and bring in McDonald at the UT spot?

Clint has shown some decent, albeit sporadic, ability to cause some mayhem in the backfield..

Either GMac gets doubled leaving the DTs 1 on 1, or he gets a 1 on 1 vs a tackle..

Can't hurt to give it a whirl..

McDonald has been our best DT not named McCoy, IMO.


I agree..
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Re: Rapid Reactions: Week 8 17-3 L vs Carolina

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:11 pm

Super K wrote:
deltbucs wrote:McDonald has been our best DT not named McCoy, IMO.


I agree..

But if he screws up just this much...He'll be flying a cargo plane full of rubber dog **** out of Hong Kong!
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Re: Rapid Reactions: Week 8 17-3 L vs Carolina

Postby DreadNaught » Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:27 am

These two Panther Tackles have struggled all year. Our D-line continues to be the medicine that cures opposing O-lines that struggle vs everyone but the Bucs. Are we sure this is all on the coaching? Or perhaps we have a talent issue?

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Re: Rapid Reactions: Week 8 17-3 L vs Carolina

Postby DreadNaught » Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:28 am

On a positive note, Dotson and Marpet continue to play very well according the PFF formula. Safe to say those two have been our best two Olinemen just by watching the games, but nice when PFF backs that up.
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Re: Rapid Reactions: Week 8 17-3 L vs Carolina

Postby Bootz2004 » Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:03 am

DreadNaught wrote:These two Panther Tackles have struggled all year. Our D-line continues to be the medicine that cures opposing O-lines that struggle vs everyone but the Bucs. Are we sure this is all on the coaching? Or perhaps we have a talent issue?

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Is this PFF grade irrespective of how the opponent plays or not? If you're saying the high grades are a result of the quality of the opponent then that makes the grade pretty irrelevant
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Re: Rapid Reactions: Week 8 17-3 L vs Carolina

Postby Nano » Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:15 am

DreadNaught wrote:On a positive note, Dotson and Marpet continue to play very well according the PFF formula. Safe to say those two have been our best two Olinemen just by watching the games, but nice when PFF backs that up.

Dotson is having an All-Pro year according to them. No sacks, very few pressures allowed(hasn't allowed multiple in a game)
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Re: Rapid Reactions: Week 8 17-3 L vs Carolina

Postby deltbucs » Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:07 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:These two Panther Tackles have struggled all year. Our D-line continues to be the medicine that cures opposing O-lines that struggle vs everyone but the Bucs. Are we sure this is all on the coaching? Or perhaps we have a talent issue?

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Is this PFF grade irrespective of how the opponent plays or not? If you're saying the high grades are a result of the quality of the opponent then that makes the grade pretty irrelevant

Agreed. Just like TD's shouldn't count for as many points if defense isn't good.
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Re: Rapid Reactions: Week 8 17-3 L vs Carolina

Postby Bootz2004 » Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:23 pm

deltbucs wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
Is this PFF grade irrespective of how the opponent plays or not? If you're saying the high grades are a result of the quality of the opponent then that makes the grade pretty irrelevant

Agreed. Just like TD's shouldn't count for as many points if defense isn't good.


We're not talking about points though. We're talking about a formula that you couldn't explain. Dread just stated that these Panthers OTs suck but our bad defense cures bad play. But then he turns around and says Dotson had a great game. Does that mean his opponent wasn't really that good? I don't expect an actual answer from you as we are talking about football now so go find somebody to play with *****. Run along now.
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Re: Rapid Reactions: Week 8 17-3 L vs Carolina

Postby deltbucs » Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:37 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
deltbucs wrote:Agreed. Just like TD's shouldn't count for as many points if defense isn't good.


We're not talking about points though. We're talking about a formula that you couldn't explain. Dread just stated that these Panthers OTs suck but our bad defense cures bad play. But then he turns around and says Dotson had a great game. Does that mean his opponent wasn't really that good? I don't expect an actual answer from you as we are talking about football now so go find somebody to play with *****. Run along now.

Yeah...I figured you wouldn't understand.
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Re: Rapid Reactions: Week 8 17-3 L vs Carolina

Postby DreadNaught » Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:41 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:These two Panther Tackles have struggled all year. Our D-line continues to be the medicine that cures opposing O-lines that struggle vs everyone but the Bucs. Are we sure this is all on the coaching? Or perhaps we have a talent issue?


Is this PFF grade irrespective of how the opponent plays or not? If you're saying the high grades are a result of the quality of the opponent then that makes the grade pretty irrelevant


The quality of the opponent is certainly a factor. For example an offensive tackle would have a much better likelihood of grading out better (using PFF or any other formula) if they were blocking Ryan Russell/Robert Ayers than they would if they had to block Bosa/Ingram.

So in that respect, a single game grade requires some context given the opponent. Which was my point since the multiple opponents this year had struggling Olines coming into the Bucs game only to have one of their 'best games' vs our Dline. Hence we are the best medicine for bad olines.

As far as Dotson, he's graded out very well in almost every game. So while I agree that a single game grade pretty irrelevant, when a player stacks multiple games together with no poor games it does legitimize his play. So, PFF or not, Dotson has played well for us this season imo.
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Re: Rapid Reactions: Week 8 17-3 L vs Carolina

Postby Bootz2004 » Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:10 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
Is this PFF grade irrespective of how the opponent plays or not? If you're saying the high grades are a result of the quality of the opponent then that makes the grade pretty irrelevant


The quality of the opponent is certainly a factor. For example an offensive tackle would have a much better likelihood of grading out better (using PFF or any other formula) if they were blocking Ryan Russell/Robert Ayers than they would if they had to block Bosa/Ingram.

So in that respect, a single game grade requires some context given the opponent. Which was my point since the multiple opponents this year had struggling Olines coming into the Bucs game only to have one of their 'best games' vs our Dline. Hence we are the best medicine for bad olines.

As far as Dotson, he's graded out very well in almost every game. So while I agree that a single game grade pretty irrelevant, when a player stacks multiple games together with no poor games it does legitimize his play. So, PFF or not, Dotson has played well for us this season imo.


That makes sense. It's just difficult for me to put stock in these grades with no clue as to the formula or how they come up with the grades.

Thanks though. That's why I asked you. You're smart enough to explain these things.
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Re: Rapid Reactions: Week 8 17-3 L vs Carolina

Postby Buc2 » Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:20 pm

Only a casual would need him to explain that.
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Re: Rapid Reactions: Week 8 17-3 L vs Carolina

Postby DanTurksGhost » Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:55 pm

DreadNaught wrote:These two Panther Tackles have struggled all year. Our D-line continues to be the medicine that cures opposing O-lines that struggle vs everyone but the Bucs. Are we sure this is all on the coaching? Or perhaps we have a talent issue?


Both. And a management issue as well.
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Re: Rapid Reactions: Week 8 17-3 L vs Carolina

Postby mdb1958 » Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:03 pm

DanTurksGhost wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:These two Panther Tackles have struggled all year. Our D-line continues to be the medicine that cures opposing O-lines that struggle vs everyone but the Bucs. Are we sure this is all on the coaching? Or perhaps we have a talent issue?


Both. And a management issue as well.


I miss Lambert and Channing Ward.
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Re: Rapid Reactions: Week 8 17-3 L vs Carolina

Postby Caradoc » Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:42 pm

deltbucs wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
Is this PFF grade irrespective of how the opponent plays or not? If you're saying the high grades are a result of the quality of the opponent then that makes the grade pretty irrelevant

Agreed. Just like TD's shouldn't count for as many points if defense isn't good.



Not remotely similar. You don’t seem to understand their grading system at all. It isn’t about scoring points, it’s about grading performance. ( or, more accurately, attempting to)

PFF has 2 guys in England watch players every snap. They then guess on each snap what they think the player was supposed to do, what they think he tried to do, and how well they think he did that job. And give a grade for each snap and then combine to get a game grade. And if all that guessing isn’t bad enough, they don’t take into consideration (like Football Outsiders does, for example) opponent adjustments. Facing off against a poorer player makes doing your job a lot easier. Offensive players facing tough defenses will therefore grade lower than those facing weak ones, and the same for defenses.

PFF scores are so subjective they are pretty much meaningless junk. At a 97 point rating from one grader could be an 83 from another. And both can be wrong. They try to have a third guy review any big discrepancies in grades, and then allegedly have former coaches “approve” the grades. (Consider how thorough this process can be when the results come out in about 24 hours).

At best they can reflect a very general “is this player really bad or really good.” Trying to use them, for example, to figure out if a guy who looks average is actually good isn’t effective because he could his actual “score” assuming every grade was 100% accurate, could easily be 20 points higher or lower. Same for trying to decide which is the better of two highly graded guys.

The grading system is also at its weakest for OL plays as there is no way for them to know with certainty what someone’s responsibility on most plays was. (This has been pointed out by Bill Belichick, Greg Olsen, and numerous other coaches and current and former players)
Last edited by Caradoc on Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rapid Reactions: Week 8 17-3 L vs Carolina

Postby Cheb » Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:03 pm

Caradoc wrote:
deltbucs wrote:Agreed. Just like TD's shouldn't count for as many points if defense isn't good.



Not remotely similar. You don’t seem to understand their grading system at all. It isn’t about scoring points, it’s about grading performance. ( or, more accurately, attempting to)

PFF has 2 guys in England watch players every snap. They then guess on each snap what they think the player was supposed to do, what they think he tried to do, and how well they think he did that job. And give a grade for each snap and then combine to get a game grade. And if all that guessing isn’t bad Enough, they don’t take into consideration (like Football Outsiders does for example) opponent adjustments. Facing off against a poorer player makes doing your job a lot easier. Offensive players facing tough defenses will therefore grade lower than those facing weak ones, and the same for defenses.

PFF scores are so subjective they are pretty much meaningless junk. At a 97 point rating from one grader could be an 83 from another. And both can be wrong. They try to have a third guy review any debit discrepancies in grades, and then allegedly have former coaches “approve” the grades. (Consider how thorough this process can be when the results come out in about 25 hours).

At best they can reflect a very general “is this player really bad or really good.” Trying to use them, for example, to figure out if a guy who looks average is actually good isn’t effective because he could his actual “score” assuming every grade was 100% accurate, could easily be 20points higher or lower. Same for trying to decide which is rather better of two highly graded guys.

The grading system is also at its weakest for OL plays as there is no way for them to know with certainty what someone’s responsibility on most plays was. (This has been pointed out by Bill Belickick, Greg Olsen, and numerous other coaches and current and former players)


Seconded. Their grades should be taken with a healthy dose of skepticism.
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Re: Rapid Reactions: Week 8 17-3 L vs Carolina

Postby Bootz2004 » Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:08 pm

Caradoc wrote:
deltbucs wrote:Agreed. Just like TD's shouldn't count for as many points if defense isn't good.



Not remotely similar. You don’t seem to understand their grading system at all. It isn’t about scoring points, it’s about grading performance. ( or, more accurately, attempting to)

PFF has 2 guys in England watch players every snap. They then guess on each snap what they think the player was supposed to do, what they think he tried to do, and how well they think he did that job. And give a grade for each snap and then combine to get a game grade. And if all that guessing isn’t bad Enough, they don’t take into consideration (like Football Outsiders does for example) opponent adjustments. Facing off against a poorer player makes doing your job a lot easier. Offensive players facing tough defenses will therefore grade lower than those facing weak ones, and the same for defenses.

PFF scores are so subjective they are pretty much meaningless junk. At a 97 point rating from one grader could be an 83 from another. And both can be wrong. They try to have a third guy review any debit discrepancies in grades, and then allegedly have former coaches “approve” the grades. (Consider how thorough this process can be when the results come out in about 25 hours).

At best they can reflect a very general “is this player really bad or really good.” Trying to use them, for example, to figure out if a guy who looks average is actually good isn’t effective because he could his actual “score” assuming every grade was 100% accurate, could easily be 20points higher or lower. Same for trying to decide which is rather better of two highly graded guys.

The grading system is also at its weakest for OL plays as there is no way for them to know with certainty what someone’s responsibility on most plays was. (This has been pointed out by Bill Belickick, Greg Olsen, and numerous other coaches and current and former players)


THANK YOU!! I tried having this discussion with NYBF a couple weeks back although I should've known better than to try and discuss anything football related. No one understand their grading system. Not even the PFF guys. I have a very hard time believing ANYTHING they put out because they don't reveal their formula nor do they factor in all of the variables. And add Dirk to the list of coaches who think PFF is trash.
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Re: Rapid Reactions: Week 8 17-3 L vs Carolina

Postby deltbucs » Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:25 am

Caradoc wrote:
deltbucs wrote:Agreed. Just like TD's shouldn't count for as many points if defense isn't good.



Not remotely similar. You don’t seem to understand their grading system at all. It isn’t about scoring points, it’s about grading performance. ( or, more accurately, attempting to)

PFF has 2 guys in England watch players every snap. They then guess on each snap what they think the player was supposed to do, what they think he tried to do, and how well they think he did that job. And give a grade for each snap and then combine to get a game grade. And if all that guessing isn’t bad enough, they don’t take into consideration (like Football Outsiders does, for example) opponent adjustments. Facing off against a poorer player makes doing your job a lot easier. Offensive players facing tough defenses will therefore grade lower than those facing weak ones, and the same for defenses.

PFF scores are so subjective they are pretty much meaningless junk. At a 97 point rating from one grader could be an 83 from another. And both can be wrong. They try to have a third guy review any big discrepancies in grades, and then allegedly have former coaches “approve” the grades. (Consider how thorough this process can be when the results come out in about 24 hours).

At best they can reflect a very general “is this player really bad or really good.” Trying to use them, for example, to figure out if a guy who looks average is actually good isn’t effective because he could his actual “score” assuming every grade was 100% accurate, could easily be 20 points higher or lower. Same for trying to decide which is the better of two highly graded guys.

The grading system is also at its weakest for OL plays as there is no way for them to know with certainty what someone’s responsibility on most plays was. (This has been pointed out by Bill Belichick, Greg Olsen, and numerous other coaches and current and former players)

Agreed. DN said in his post that boots was quoting that the Panthers' tackles graded out so highly because our DL sucks. I was just responding to boots' nonsense with equal nonsense.
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Re: Rapid Reactions: Week 8 17-3 L vs Carolina

Postby DreadNaught » Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:09 pm

Even since PFF called Anthony Collins a good player I've always considered their grades skeptical. Especially true of Oline play.

I treat PFF grades simply as a data point. If a guy grades out on PFF as good/elite multiple games in a row there is good chance that player is doing well. But I still would not use PFF as single source of truth in determining the value of how a player has performed, nor use it to determine a player's worth.

It's a good tool for fans. But it requires context and people still need to watch the games.
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Re: Rapid Reactions: Week 8 17-3 L vs Carolina

Postby Bootz2004 » Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:09 pm

deltbucs wrote:
Caradoc wrote:

Not remotely similar. You don’t seem to understand their grading system at all. It isn’t about scoring points, it’s about grading performance. ( or, more accurately, attempting to)

PFF has 2 guys in England watch players every snap. They then guess on each snap what they think the player was supposed to do, what they think he tried to do, and how well they think he did that job. And give a grade for each snap and then combine to get a game grade. And if all that guessing isn’t bad enough, they don’t take into consideration (like Football Outsiders does, for example) opponent adjustments. Facing off against a poorer player makes doing your job a lot easier. Offensive players facing tough defenses will therefore grade lower than those facing weak ones, and the same for defenses.

PFF scores are so subjective they are pretty much meaningless junk. At a 97 point rating from one grader could be an 83 from another. And both can be wrong. They try to have a third guy review any big discrepancies in grades, and then allegedly have former coaches “approve” the grades. (Consider how thorough this process can be when the results come out in about 24 hours).

At best they can reflect a very general “is this player really bad or really good.” Trying to use them, for example, to figure out if a guy who looks average is actually good isn’t effective because he could his actual “score” assuming every grade was 100% accurate, could easily be 20 points higher or lower. Same for trying to decide which is the better of two highly graded guys.

The grading system is also at its weakest for OL plays as there is no way for them to know with certainty what someone’s responsibility on most plays was. (This has been pointed out by Bill Belichick, Greg Olsen, and numerous other coaches and current and former players)

Agreed. DN said in his post that boots was quoting that the Panthers' tackles graded out so highly because our DL sucks. I was just responding to boots' nonsense with equal nonsense.


Except that Dread & Doc were able to clearly understand my post. You proved that you didn't. I'm glad you admitted that nonsense is all you have to offer.
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Re: Rapid Reactions: Week 8 17-3 L vs Carolina

Postby Bootz2004 » Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:15 pm

DreadNaught wrote:Even since PFF called Anthony Collins a good player I've always considered their grades skeptical. Especially true of Oline play.

I treat PFF grades simply as a data point. If a guy grades out on PFF as good/elite multiple games in a row there is good chance that player is doing well. But I still would not use PFF as single source of truth in determining the value of how a player has performed, nor use it to determine a player's worth.

It's a good tool for fans. But it requires context and people still need to watch the games.


That's how PFF came to their conclusion on Collins. Multiple elite "grades". But as you said without context how can the data be quantified? It can't.

If you watch Bengals tape on Collins it's easy to see why they said he had "success". They almost always lined up a TE or RB to his side to help him out. They also adjusted their offense to utilize shorter quicker passes. As a result he and the rest of their Oline didn't have to hold up in pass protection as long. How PFF grades that is anyone's guess.
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Re: Rapid Reactions: Week 8 17-3 L vs Carolina

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:01 pm

Responses to this thread must come in the form of or include quotes from Talladega nights or Step Brothers.
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Re: Rapid Reactions: Week 8 17-3 L vs Carolina

Postby Super K » Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:02 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:Responses to this thread must come in the form of or include quotes from Talladega nights or Step Brothers.


Huh? Why would we reply to last week's thread?
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Re: Rapid Reactions: Week 8 17-3 L vs Carolina

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:07 pm

Super K wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:Responses to this thread must come in the form of or include quotes from Talladega nights or Step Brothers.


Huh? Why would we reply to last week's thread?

Gimme a break. I'm drinking heavily
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Re: Rapid Reactions: Week 8 17-3 L vs Carolina

Postby Super K » Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:09 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Super K wrote:
Huh? Why would we reply to last week's thread?

Gimme a break. I'm drinking heavily


Fair enough bud... hahahahaha
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