QB Controversy

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Re: QB Controversy

Postby BCULAW » Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:17 pm

deltbucs wrote:
billsfan1212 wrote:Good god... you dont know how bad things are if you seriously want Fitz leading this team.
Fitz is a GREAT dude. He's the consummate teammate. He's the guy that you LOVE to root for bc hes that good of a dude.....
Of all the things Fitz is good at - quarterbacking is not one of them.
Now, has he had spurts where hes been the man? well, ya... you dont stick in the league that long unless you are competent.
Thats Fitzy in a nutshell. COMPETENT.
We had a saying, and the games we won were due to FITZMAgic and the games we lost were FITZTragic.
The magic wore off eventually and it was because of 1 single thing. I've never been able to put my finger on a reason in such a way before or after but it was SSOO painfully obvious.
Sadly, you guys got your first taste of the tragic yesterday.
NEVER FAIL - he throws the pick that puts the nail in the coffin.
Seriously, I kid you not. It happens EVERY...SINGLE....TIME!!!
I've always kinda liked Tampa and after this week I'll go back to doing so but trust me... ya cant have Brett Favre's mentality if you dont have his arm!! Thats his issue.

Now, that aside, he put it to the Bills later year on Thursday Night, and beat em once after leave with the Texans so even though hes lost a lot more than won since parting ways- some people think hes a Bills killer. He may be! But I can PROMISE you this... 9/10 times if you are down a TD and need him to drive down the field for a TD to win THE DRIVE WILL END WITH A GAME ENDING PICK.
His brain makes throws his arm cant.
Shame, because dude is a gamer. Puts it all on the line and is fun to root for.
If you need further proof, look at year 1 and then year 2 with the Jets. yr1 was a fluke (with a lot of bounces offsetting all the picks) and year 2 was just the real Fitz.
Also... Fitz also had a tendency to be terribly erratic. He'd put his receivers (as recently as last yr w/the JETS) in a bad spot with a poorly placed ball. Skipping balls. Balls behind guys... and the dreaded Fitz Rainbow!!!! When he'd throw deep the ball would totally disappear from the screen. I get touch... but this is something totally different. Only 1 of 3 things happens on a Fitz deep pass. 1) INT 2) 10 yards out of bounds incomplete 3) Opposing DBs laugh at how bad a deep ball he has *****BONUS***** sometimes a ball would get tipped up for a completion
You guys have a good thing with the kid down there... keep going that direction and hope he takes that next step.
Maybe this upcoming AFC game isnt as important as your 2 NFC games after and Fitz gets a look just to be safe- BUT- after JW comes back Dont get frustrated!
Truth is, 80% of the league (if not more) would KILL to have JW.

Meanwhile...back in Buffalo......we get to deal with MR sub 200 yrd passing and people calling for the rookie 5th rd backup....

And you guys complain about JW?!?!?!?!

At least our D will keep us in it!

I just hope for your sake that however the game shakes out ( if Fitz plays) you guys arent in a position to drive the field w/2:00 left down by 6. I wouldnt wish that feeling on anyone!!

Good post, dude.

Your comments about throwing a pick to lose the game brings back some vivid memories of Brian Griese in a Bucs uniform.


Lord, that guy could throw "pick sixes" with the best of them!!

I've got a ton of confidence in JW, but was hoping for more from hit at this point in the season.

My biggest concerns are:

1) Whether JL/DK are doing enough to protect and nurture JW during his development. It seems the other young QBs in the league are surrounded by superior O-Line talent and stud RBs, while our O-line has been spotty at best and RB talent/availability/production has been suspect. Meanwhile, JW has been given a slate of great receiving weapons and expected to shoulder the load through the air. I just wonder if he's being asked to do too much too soon. I hope not. My sense is that everyone that has been around JW have found him to have an exceptional understanding of the position. The temptation is to put it all on his plate since he appears to be so advanced at such a young stage of development. But, he still has to develop, and he needs to regularly experience success in order to make the most of that development.

2) I don't see a lot of "easy" throws in this offense. Most of what we see are vertical routes with either: a) throws into tight windows to big targets (Brate, Evans), deep passes that are low % by nature (bombs to DJax), or intermediate routes where JW has to throw over a CB but underneath a safety (i.e., another tight window). Where are the "chain movers" that pick up 7 yards on 3rd and 5? Where are the screens and slants in space? Where are the single read throws off of rollouts. Heck, given the lack of production in the running game, we're not even seeing a healthy dose of play action, which is JW's bread and butter- he's among the best in the league at it!! I'm not necessarily casting stones at DK - the easy throws may be there and JW may simply be reverting to his gunslinger mentality by forcing the issue. If that is the case, though, pull in the reigns!!! I swear the longer throws would be easier if the defense had reason to fear the underneath stuff, too!

3) JW seems rushed this year - instead of slowing down for him, the game seems to have sped up. He's feeling phantom pressure. He's rushing throws that don't need to be rushed - we saw this repeatedly with some of the short throws in the Pats game. He's frantic on the rare occasion he leaves the pocket. My hope is that this is a growing pain, but my fear is that JW is playing with fear. It's hard to coach that out of someone.

4) Finally, I am concerned that JW isn't making plays with his feet anymore. JW has shown stretches of prodigious arm talent, and his anticipation from the pocket is great, but he's truly exceptional when plays break down and he gets to rely on instinct. I think this is a big reason why he is so successful in the hurry up and late in games. He had 6 rushing TDs as a rookie - second in the league among all QBs, and I'd venture to guess that the vast majority of his red zone passing TDs last year were on broken "school yard" plays (especially inside the 10 yard line). I understand wanting to play within a "system," but I fear that this aspect of Jameis' game is being coached out of him.

I'm holding out hope for JW. He has all the tools to be great. He has a lot of time to develop, and hopefully can lead this team for the next decade. I'm willing to be patient, and I believe that he will be an upper-level QB in the league sooner than later. That said, I sure wish things looked better than they do currently, and I wish I got the sense that JW was being nurtured a bit more, rather than force-fed.
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Re: QB Controversy

Postby DreadNaught » Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:35 pm

1) Jameis supporting cast shouldn't be used as an excuse imo. His weapons are as good as any in NFL and definitely above league average, Martin is running hard like the '15 version of himself, and the Oline has been very solid this season when you look at pressures, sacks, and time to throw. Now that Doug is back and ready to carry a full game load of reps/carries we just need to get them all on the field together. We're going into game 6 and haven't had that in a game yet.

2) Completely agree DK needs to script some easy 'confidence throws' early in the game to get Jameis in a rhythm. I'm not against taking a deep shot if the defensive look warrants it pre-snap, but for the most part it seems like we come out trying to push the ball downfield w/ every pass before the offense can settle in. It's like a pitcher in baseball who struggles with their control just needs take a deep breath and take a little off the ball for 1-2 pitches so he see the ball hit the mit. Once that happens everything else gets much easier.

3) I haven't noticed Jameis looking rushed this year, the short throws in the Pats game were an issue but I attributed that to Winston and Martin not practicing in a month and their timing/spacing being off as a result. But I'll pay more attention to this now that you've mentioned it.

4) Agree here also. Jameis was one of the best QBs in the NFL last season when breaking the pocket. He's a big guy who is functionally mobile for a QB so he should use that asset of his game while he is still young and resilient just like BigBen did. When Jameis gets into his 30's and the game has slowed way down he'll be getting the ball out quicker and thus won't need to run nearly as much. But for now he should use that part of his game, especially around the goalline or on 3rd and short.
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Re: QB Controversy

Postby Super K » Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:01 pm

Tossing this out there, as I just read it, but this week's "Cover 3" on PR really details the shortcomings of our play design and play calling...

Definitely worth the read for those whom are reluctant to look at or acknowledge that our scheme has a lot to do with our offensive shortcomings. I'd post the link but I'm on my phone..

Looking at one of JWs throwaways against Zona, it's blatantly obvious to see why he made the decision...that play was FUCKED..
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Re: QB Controversy

Postby Heisenberg » Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:05 pm

Spot on with number 2..been saying the same.. No plays to get him in rhythm, not enough ay action, and dk still refuses to use djax underneath to allow for yac. Having him go deep every play is wasting his talent.. Playcalling is a huge culprit
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Re: QB Controversy

Postby Sammich » Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:10 pm

We can debate the pros and cons of various offensive philosophies until we're all blue in the face. The bottom line is I'm seeing guys getting open and not getting the ball, or getting such a badly placed ball that what should have been an easy pitch, catch, and run ends up requiring a circus catch that leaves the receiver in a bad enough spot that they can't do anything with it.

That isn't on the playcalling.
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Re: QB Controversy

Postby Noles1724 » Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:22 am

Super K wrote:Tossing this out there, as I just read it, but this week's "Cover 3" on PR really details the shortcomings of our play design and play calling...

Definitely worth the read for those whom are reluctant to look at or acknowledge that our scheme has a lot to do with our offensive shortcomings. I'd post the link but I'm on my phone..

Looking at one of JWs throwaways against Zona, it's blatantly obvious to see why he made the decision...that play was FUCKED..


looking for a link if you happen to come back via pc.
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Re: QB Controversy

Postby uscbucsfan » Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:33 am

Sammich wrote:We can debate the pros and cons of various offensive philosophies until we're all blue in the face. The bottom line is I'm seeing guys getting open and not getting the ball, or getting such a badly placed ball that what should have been an easy pitch, catch, and run ends up requiring a circus catch that leaves the receiver in a bad enough spot that they can't do anything with it.

That isn't on the playcalling.


Guys are getting open and people are ignoring that Winston has been missing the easy confidence throws. They are there. There are many plays where the RB or TE is short and Winston either looks past them or throws a bad pass. It's impossible to say if Koetter is telling him to ignore the shorter routes, but he mostly eyes for the big play. Watching the all 22 I've seen many times this year where we have 2 players wide open on short, easy routes and Winston throws it deep in double coverage.

I blame Koetter at times for abandoning the run, his player/time, management, trusting bad kickers, etc....but his plays get people open and the QB is getting time, but cannot deliver right now.
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Re: QB Controversy

Postby DreadNaught » Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:51 am

Noles1724 wrote:
Super K wrote:Tossing this out there, as I just read it, but this week's "Cover 3" on PR really details the shortcomings of our play design and play calling...

Definitely worth the read for those whom are reluctant to look at or acknowledge that our scheme has a lot to do with our offensive shortcomings. I'd post the link but I'm on my phone..

Looking at one of JWs throwaways against Zona, it's blatantly obvious to see why he made the decision...that play was FUCKED..


looking for a link if you happen to come back via pc.


Here is your LINK

It was a well written article, but I disagree with a lot of it. Tre is a good young writer but he's a jouro major that has never called plays at any level questioning a guy in DK that has spent his life in the game and been calling plays longer than Tre has been alive.

For example, I understand the idea you want to set up the shots downfield, but it's not like we're forcing deep throws into double coverage. Those plays are there to be made for us and we simply are not executing them. The first play vs the Cards was max-protect PA pass w/ both Evans and DJax running stop-n-go's. Evans was wide open on that play since the Cards FS bit hard on the stutter and gave up the deep middle of the field. Jameis just missed the pass. That isn't Koetter's fault. We also know how devastating an early deep shot can be for a defense and how it forces the secondary to play on their heels a bit.

Also, we've been down multiple scores in 3 of 5 games in addition to not having a run game that has been reliable for most of this season. So when things like that happen it makes playcalling a bit screwed up.

There certainly has been times DK's playcalling has been suspect, specifically around the goalline and some of his other in-game decision making should be brought into question. But all I know is that Koetter is the best playcaller this franchise has had, maybe ever!? I still trust Dirk to call plays, he just needs to a better job of getting the offense into a groove early like we did vs the Giants. Part of that falls on the defense also to make stops early and not fall into early holes like we have in both road games thus far. Overall we just aren't playing good complimentary football consistently enough.
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Re: QB Controversy

Postby DreadNaught » Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:55 am

uscbucsfan wrote:
Sammich wrote:We can debate the pros and cons of various offensive philosophies until we're all blue in the face. The bottom line is I'm seeing guys getting open and not getting the ball, or getting such a badly placed ball that what should have been an easy pitch, catch, and run ends up requiring a circus catch that leaves the receiver in a bad enough spot that they can't do anything with it.

That isn't on the playcalling.


Guys are getting open and people are ignoring that Winston has been missing the easy confidence throws. They are there. There are many plays where the RB or TE is short and Winston either looks past them or throws a bad pass. It's impossible to say if Koetter is telling him to ignore the shorter routes, but he mostly eyes for the big play. Watching the all 22 I've seen many times this year where we have 2 players wide open on short, easy routes and Winston throws it deep in double coverage.

I blame Koetter at times for abandoning the run, his player/time, management, trusting bad kickers, etc....but his plays get people open and the QB is getting time, but cannot deliver right now.


This is how I see it also.
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Re: QB Controversy

Postby billsfan1212 » Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:58 am

I just hope the Bucs dont make the same mistakes the Bills did with one; Erik Rodriguez "EJ" Manuel Jr

They doubled down and got him some weapons (Watkins, Woods and a few good RB) and messed him up so much more by screwing with his head.
Kid put on the single worst performance I've ever seen from a qb in London (taking the mantle oddly enough from an epic Fitz 5 or 6 pick meltdown)
He lost a fumble that was returned for a touchdown and came back the next series to throw an interception right to Telvin Smith, who brought it back for six more. If that wasn't enough, Manuel turned the ball over for a third straight series on the next play. Just like that, the Bills went from trailing 7-3 to trailing 27-3.
But - then he brought em back and if not for a phantom PI call giving the Jags the game they would have won.

Point being, he had tools. You guys would know better than I being close to his alma mater... but maybe he would have been good. Maybe not.... and he was up against a stacked deck from the onset of being over drafted. HOWEVER, people were screwing with his head and it ruined him.

Hopefully the organization and fans display the patience to let JW grow, make mistakes and learn.
None of which can be accomplished if the kid is so worried his next mistake might be his last.

JW is heads above EJ but their school links them and maybe EJ can be a cautionary tale of how NOT to treat a young franchise guy.
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Re: QB Controversy

Postby Heisenberg » Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:06 pm

Lol those second down numbers of run vs pass are horrible..
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Re: QB Controversy

Postby deltbucs » Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:47 pm

billsfan1212 wrote:I just hope the Bucs dont make the same mistakes the Bills did with one; Erik Rodriguez "EJ" Manuel Jr

They doubled down and got him some weapons (Watkins, Woods and a few good RB) and messed him up so much more by screwing with his head.
Kid put on the single worst performance I've ever seen from a qb in London (taking the mantle oddly enough from an epic Fitz 5 or 6 pick meltdown)
He lost a fumble that was returned for a touchdown and came back the next series to throw an interception right to Telvin Smith, who brought it back for six more. If that wasn't enough, Manuel turned the ball over for a third straight series on the next play. Just like that, the Bills went from trailing 7-3 to trailing 27-3.
But - then he brought em back and if not for a phantom PI call giving the Jags the game they would have won.

Point being, he had tools. You guys would know better than I being close to his alma mater... but maybe he would have been good. Maybe not.... and he was up against a stacked deck from the onset of being over drafted. HOWEVER, people were screwing with his head and it ruined him.

Hopefully the organization and fans display the patience to let JW grow, make mistakes and learn.
None of which can be accomplished if the kid is so worried his next mistake might be his last.

JW is heads above EJ but their school links them and maybe EJ can be a cautionary tale of how NOT to treat a young franchise guy.

As an FSU fan, I laughed when you guys drafted EJ in the first round. I had zero confidence in him becoming a starting caliber NFL QB. JW on the other hand, I pounded the table for. I was also pretty big on Telvin Smith, since you bring him up. Jags sure got a steal with him in like the 4th round.
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Re: QB Controversy

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:40 pm

Fitz is outta here after this season anyway.
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Re: QB Controversy

Postby Bootz2004 » Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:18 pm

What the **** is this ****? There is no QB controversy unless I hear there's a chance Ryan Griffin can come off I.R. this season. Then the question will be whether or not to keep Fitz.
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Re: QB Controversy

Postby Super K » Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:24 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:What the **** is this ****? There is no QB controversy unless I hear there's a chance Ryan Griffin can come off I.R. this season. Then the question will be whether or not to keep Fitz.


You've missed a TON around here during your absence..

Get reading and get up to speed..

;) How was vaycay?
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Re: QB Controversy

Postby Bootz2004 » Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:31 pm

Super K wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:What the **** is this ****? There is no QB controversy unless I hear there's a chance Ryan Griffin can come off I.R. this season. Then the question will be whether or not to keep Fitz.


You've missed a TON around here during your absence..

Get reading and get up to speed..

;) How was vaycay?


Yea I see. Only saw highlights of the game and assumed they were just highlights. Guess it was worse than the score indicated.

Vegas was amazing! The wife and I had such a great time. Love our kids but it was nice being kid free if only for 6 days. Much needed get away. Thanks for asking.
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Re: QB Controversy

Postby Nano » Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:39 pm

Lol, you should read the gameday thread. Goes from 0 to...-100 real fast. Just be warned if you do...the game really was that bad
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Re: QB Controversy

Postby Caradoc » Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:10 pm

Heisenberg wrote:Lol those second down numbers of run vs pass are horrible..



One of the predictable tendencies in Dirk's playcalling is he really seems to almost always pass if a run on first down doesn't get more than a couple of yards (or loses yardage)

DreadNaught wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:
Guys are getting open and people are ignoring that Winston has been missing the easy confidence throws. They are there. There are many plays where the RB or TE is short and Winston either looks past them or throws a bad pass. It's impossible to say if Koetter is telling him to ignore the shorter routes, but he mostly eyes for the big play. Watching the all 22 I've seen many times this year where we have 2 players wide open on short, easy routes and Winston throws it deep in double coverage.

I blame Koetter at times for abandoning the run, his player/time, management, trusting bad kickers, etc....but his plays get people open and the QB is getting time, but cannot deliver right now.


This is how I see it also.


The problem is, there aren't "many", there are "some". Much more often the shallowest route being run is about 8-10 yards downfield. We don't have anywhere near as many plays being called that attack multiple levels as other teams. Sikkema isn't the only one to note it, other analysts, former pros have commented on how our scheme does Winston no favors, as have many of us here.

The problem with everyone just saying "I see guys open and we aren't executing" is that you can say that on a ton of plays for even the best offenses. Even the best QBs and offenses only have a completion percentage about two thirds. And even those completions aren't necessarily all "hits" many are checkdowns and short routes. If you watch some Patriots film, you'll see Brady not seeing or passing open or optimal targets - he "misses" them, but hits on shallower passes. So even when he "misses" he is moving the down and distance. Winston has a tendency to focus too much on the optimal guy and not move on to the higher percentage shallower guy, BUT - and it's an important "but" - There often isn't anything shallower there for him to go to. He's got to make multiple deep reads without the option of deciding that a guy is covered quickly and coming off to a shallow cross or slant or the like. Low percentage plays are low percentage foe everyone, not just Winston.

The problem is a combination of things, and Winston is a big part of it himself, but we aren't going to magically fix his issues midseason. What we CAN do is change the playcalling - don't even need to change scheme, because we have those plays in the playbook and we see them occasionally. We just need them to be called more. Playcalling is demanding too much from Jameis right now. Koetter needs to adjust.
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Re: QB Controversy

Postby Truebuc » Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:24 pm

It’s sure wasn’t pretty but a win is a win. I still believe in Winston but it’s something he hasn’t been able to do the last 5 weeks
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Re: QB Controversy

Postby tjax03 » Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:26 pm

Give fitz the luxury of evans and see what happens.

Fitz could get us into playoff contention imo
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Re: QB Controversy

Postby Doctor » Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:39 pm

I think rest will do JW a lot of good. I think he got caught up in his own hype and it took him for a ride. He gets to reset here. See how it's the "take what the defense gives you" that gets you the W's. As others have pointed out, Winston has had open targets he's passed over all year long. If he really loves winning, love it more than the big play, he'll take this time to keep learning the offense that he's been abusing this year.
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Re: QB Controversy

Postby BUCCABEER » Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:47 pm

Doctor wrote:I think rest will do JW a lot of good. I think he got caught up in his own hype and it took him for a ride. He gets to reset here. See how it's the "take what the defense gives you" that gets you the W's. As others have pointed out, Winston has had open targets he's passed over all year long. If he really loves winning, love it more than the big play, he'll take this time to keep learning the offense that he's been abusing this year.


Nice post, some real truth to this.
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Re: QB Controversy

Postby Ken Carson » Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:47 pm

Fitzpatrick was horrible today. The only QB controversy we have is who keeps the backup job when Winston is healthy.
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Re: QB Controversy

Postby Super K » Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:51 pm

Ken Carson wrote:Fitzpatrick was horrible today. The only QB controversy we have is who keeps the backup job when Winston is healthy.



Right? WTF were others watching...

17/34 for 183 (50% and a 5.5 ypa)

1td and 1pick
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Re: QB Controversy

Postby sanka » Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:12 pm

Super K wrote:
Ken Carson wrote:Fitzpatrick was horrible today. The only QB controversy we have is who keeps the backup job when Winston is healthy.



Right? WTF were others watching...

17/34 for 183 (50% and a 5.5 ypa)

1td and 1pick

I cannot believe you took this thread seriously..
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Re: QB Controversy

Postby tjax03 » Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:14 pm

Super K wrote:
Ken Carson wrote:Fitzpatrick was horrible today. The only QB controversy we have is who keeps the backup job when Winston is healthy.



Right? WTF were others watching...

17/34 for 183 (50% and a 5.5 ypa)

1td and 1pick



He converted 3rd downs. Kept drives alive and gave the defense rest.

Thats something we have not seen in a while
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Re: QB Controversy

Postby Jason Bourne » Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:14 pm

sanka wrote:
Super K wrote:

Right? WTF were others watching...

17/34 for 183 (50% and a 5.5 ypa)

1td and 1pick

I cannot believe you took this thread seriously..



True, but Winston has been horrible for awhile now
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Re: QB Controversy

Postby Jason Bourne » Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:16 pm

The short pass to Sims for the TD is one Winston needs to learn because he seems to always over throw those
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Re: QB Controversy

Postby sanka » Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:16 pm

Jason Bourne wrote:
sanka wrote:I cannot believe you took this thread seriously..



True, but Winston has been horrible for awhile now


He has been injured too and he doesn't have a good coach.
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Re: QB Controversy

Postby DanTurksGhost » Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:17 pm

Doctor wrote:I think rest will do JW a lot of good. I think he got caught up in his own hype and it took him for a ride. He gets to reset here. See how it's the "take what the defense gives you" that gets you the W's. As others have pointed out, Winston has had open targets he's passed over all year long. If he really loves winning, love it more than the big play, he'll take this time to keep learning the offense that he's been abusing this year.


Hopefully he's paying attention. And hopefully he'll realize he holds the ball too long and needs to get it out quicker.
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