Rapid Reactions Week 6 38-33 Loss @ Arizona

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Re: Rapid Reactions Week 6 38-33 Loss @ Arizona

Postby Nano » Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:53 pm

DanTurksGhost wrote:
Doctor wrote:He'll get there. Not overnight, but he'll get there.


I'm not so sure. I think he'll get marginally better. Favre was a career 62% passer, but his second, third and fourth seasons were all over 66% and up.

Winston is closer to Freeman than Favre
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Re: Rapid Reactions Week 6 38-33 Loss @ Arizona

Postby Sammich » Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:55 pm

Agent Orange wrote:Would anyone like to discuss Donovan Smith and his penalties and whiffed blocks in key situations? He is one of the few players that we have that just continues to make mistakes weekly.



I'm 99% sure this never gets brought up because we've all just accepted it. Donovan is a mountain of a man and strong as a bear. Unfortunately, because of his size he has trouble with the quick, little guys that are usually lined up across from him. He would make an excellent guard or right tackle, but the coaching staff insists on him playing the left.
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Re: Rapid Reactions Week 6 38-33 Loss @ Arizona

Postby Buccs99 » Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:57 pm

first half, pretty much no reaction. Ive come to expect this. im more shocked when they actually show life in the first half. It rarely happens. Pretty sad stat that we are now over 30 games into Winstons career and he has only 3 opening drive TD's.

second half showed some life when the cardinals set into a little cruise control but it doesnt help getting turnovers from your backup QB. Even if they were stalling drives, we couldve walked away from this game with a possible W, only because the cardinals are not that good and when you go into the season with expectations of a team that wins against these types of teams, this was a very disappointing loss. shoulda had this one. yet, they came in flat and it looked about like what this season has been so far.

it's early. the next 3 will be very indicative with where we end up this year, imo. Bills are a beatable team thats playing decent football right now. Then we have Carolina in tampa. another team playing good football.. Saints are on a 3 game win streak. in the dome. going to be a very tough game. 3 tough opponents and we need to atleast get away with 2 wins. 3 wins would be ideal, as would 2-1 w/ wins in our division being the most important. anything less, i see this team going 7-9 at least and another season where coaching and our front office will be questioned.
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Re: Rapid Reactions Week 6 38-33 Loss @ Arizona

Postby DreadNaught » Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:20 pm

Sammich wrote:
Agent Orange wrote:Would anyone like to discuss Donovan Smith and his penalties and whiffed blocks in key situations? He is one of the few players that we have that just continues to make mistakes weekly.



I'm 99% sure this never gets brought up because we've all just accepted it. Donovan is a mountain of a man and strong as a bear. Unfortunately, because of his size he has trouble with the quick, little guys that are usually lined up across from him. He would make an excellent guard or right tackle, but the coaching staff insists on him playing the left.


Smith has played more consistent this season, but that holding call on the 11yd run by Doug on 3rd-n-1 the drive right after the Grimes INT return really hurt. Would've given us 1st-n-10 at the Cards 22 midway through the 3rd quarter. We didn't know it at the time but momentum had swung our way but that hold by Smith and the Fitz INT a couple drives later were the two really big mistakes that killed any chance of a comeback. I know the Cards were nursing a 20-30 point lead most of the 2nd half so this comes with context, but out of 7 drives offensive drives for Arizona in the 2nd half only two were over 4 plays and only two went for greater than 30yds (none longer than 36yds).

We just dug too deep of a hole and made too many crucial mistakes.
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Re: Rapid Reactions Week 6 38-33 Loss @ Arizona

Postby DreadNaught » Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:16 pm

So going through the drive chart and noticed the Cards first 3 drives were as follows;

6 plays - 75yds = TD
7 plays - 86yds = TD
7 plays - 95yds = TD

20 plays - 256yds = 21 points barely into the 2nd quarter. They followed that up w/ a 10 play - 60yd FG drive to make it 24-0, which put them at 30 plays - 316yds.

Both Cards TDs in the 2nd half came off Fitzmagic INTs.

Urghhh. We just got dominated early. Tough to blame the anyone but the defense for allowing a start like that. Just terrible...
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Re: Rapid Reactions Week 6 38-33 Loss @ Arizona

Postby Noles1724 » Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:39 pm

DreadNaught wrote:So going through the drive chart and noticed the Cards first 3 drives were as follows;

6 plays - 75yds = TD
7 plays - 86yds = TD
7 plays - 95yds = TD

20 plays - 256yds = 21 points barely into the 2nd quarter. They followed that up w/ a 10 play - 60yd FG drive to make it 24-0, which put them at 30 plays - 316yds.

Both Cards TDs in the 2nd half came off Fitzmagic INTs.

Urghhh. We just got dominated early. Tough to blame the anyone but the defense for allowing a start like that. Just terrible...


I agree.. how anyone can point the finger elsewhere based on the start is perplexing to me.

AZ WRs were WIDE open, the edge was lost nearly every time in rush D..
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Re: Rapid Reactions Week 6 38-33 Loss @ Arizona

Postby Super K » Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:51 pm

Noles1724 wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:So going through the drive chart and noticed the Cards first 3 drives were as follows;

6 plays - 75yds = TD
7 plays - 86yds = TD
7 plays - 95yds = TD

20 plays - 256yds = 21 points barely into the 2nd quarter. They followed that up w/ a 10 play - 60yd FG drive to make it 24-0, which put them at 30 plays - 316yds.

Both Cards TDs in the 2nd half came off Fitzmagic INTs.

Urghhh. We just got dominated early. Tough to blame the anyone but the defense for allowing a start like that. Just terrible...


I agree.. how anyone can point the finger elsewhere based on the start is perplexing to me.

AZ WRs were WIDE open, the edge was lost nearly every time in rush D..


100% agree..
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Re: Rapid Reactions Week 6 38-33 Loss @ Arizona

Postby DreadNaught » Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:18 pm

Noles1724 wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:So going through the drive chart and noticed the Cards first 3 drives were as follows;

6 plays - 75yds = TD
7 plays - 86yds = TD
7 plays - 95yds = TD

20 plays - 256yds = 21 points barely into the 2nd quarter. They followed that up w/ a 10 play - 60yd FG drive to make it 24-0, which put them at 30 plays - 316yds.

Both Cards TDs in the 2nd half came off Fitzmagic INTs.

Urghhh. We just got dominated early. Tough to blame the anyone but the defense for allowing a start like that. Just terrible...


I agree.. how anyone can point the finger elsewhere based on the start is perplexing to me.

AZ WRs were WIDE open, the edge was lost nearly every time in rush D..


Yeah, I'm not trying absolve Winston, Koetter, or the playcalling at certain parts of the game. But the defense didn't give us a chance to play a balanced/complimentary game. You just can't allow a team to have 3 drives to start a game that average 85yds on less than 6 plays each. That's embarrassing!!!
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Re: Rapid Reactions Week 6 38-33 Loss @ Arizona

Postby mdb1958 » Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:34 pm

Yeah, it would be crazy thinking to think we could have also scored 3 touchdowns on our first three possessions. Winston couldnt get a firstdown on third and 2, and then damn Koetter calling offensive holding and false start on the other two (Smith/Evans). All third down drive killers.

What is Koetters problem is this team doesnt look ready to play - every game this season.

Team loss with plenty of players stepping up to show why.
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Re: Rapid Reactions Week 6 38-33 Loss @ Arizona

Postby mdb1958 » Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:43 pm

Sammich wrote:
Agent Orange wrote:Would anyone like to discuss Donovan Smith and his penalties and whiffed blocks in key situations? He is one of the few players that we have that just continues to make mistakes weekly.



I'm 99% sure this never gets brought up because we've all just accepted it. Donovan is a mountain of a man and strong as a bear. Unfortunately, because of his size he has trouble with the quick, little guys that are usually lined up across from him. He would make an excellent guard or right tackle, but the coaching staff insists on him playing the left.



Sad part is we are hardly ever getting offensive penalties - JUST THE ONES THAT HURT THE MOST.
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Re: Rapid Reactions Week 6 38-33 Loss @ Arizona

Postby Doctor » Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:01 pm

mdb1958 wrote:Yeah, it would be crazy thinking to think we could have also scored 3 touchdowns on our first three possessions. Winston couldnt get a firstdown on third and 2, and then damn Koetter calling offensive holding and false start on the other two (Smith/Evans). All third down drive killers.

What is Koetters problem is this team doesnt look ready to play - every game this season.

Team loss with plenty of players stepping up to show why.


What are you talking about? Before yesterday the Bucs were 26-10 in first quarters this season. That's hardly "unprepared every game". Vikings game was the only other one were were pretty bad to open up with.

This team is a notoriously slow starter and we're working on correcting that. Sorry the correction hasn't come as fast as you'd like.
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Re: Rapid Reactions Week 6 38-33 Loss @ Arizona

Postby mdb1958 » Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:48 pm

Doctor wrote:
mdb1958 wrote:Yeah, it would be crazy thinking to think we could have also scored 3 touchdowns on our first three possessions. Winston couldnt get a firstdown on third and 2, and then damn Koetter calling offensive holding and false start on the other two (Smith/Evans). All third down drive killers.

What is Koetters problem is this team doesnt look ready to play - every game this season.

Team loss with plenty of players stepping up to show why.


What are you talking about? Before yesterday the Bucs were 26-10 in first quarters this season. That's hardly "unprepared every game". Vikings game was the only other one were were pretty bad to open up with.

This team is a notoriously slow starter and we're working on correcting that. Sorry the correction hasn't come as fast as you'd like.[/quot

[i]When your the fourth ranked offense in the league and your defense allows every team they play to match every stat even higher or better, yeah you should know you need to be a scoring machine.[/i]
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Re: Rapid Reactions Week 6 38-33 Loss @ Arizona

Postby mdb1958 » Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:09 pm

Doctor wrote:
mdb1958 wrote:Yeah, it would be crazy thinking to think we could have also scored 3 touchdowns on our first three possessions. Winston couldnt get a firstdown on third and 2, and then damn Koetter calling offensive holding and false start on the other two (Smith/Evans). All third down drive killers.

What is Koetters problem is this team doesnt look ready to play - every game this season.

Team loss with plenty of players stepping up to show why.


What are you talking about? Before yesterday the Bucs were 26-10 in first quarters this season. That's hardly "unprepared every game". Vikings game was the only other one were were pretty bad to open up with.

This team is a notoriously slow starter and we're working on correcting that. Sorry the correction hasn't come as fast as you'd like.





When your the fourth ranked offense in the league and your defense allows every team they play to match every stat even higher or better, yeah you should know you need to be a scoring machine.
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Re: Rapid Reactions Week 6 38-33 Loss @ Arizona

Postby mdb1958 » Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:30 pm

Question, is this an offense that should be averaging 30 points a game?
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Re: Rapid Reactions Week 6 38-33 Loss @ Arizona

Postby DanTurksGhost » Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:36 pm

mdb1958 wrote:When your the fourth ranked offense in the league and your defense allows every team they play to match every stat even higher or better, yeah you should know you need to be a scoring machine.


You know as well as I do that "fourth ranked offense" is a pretty misleading statistic considering the circumstances.
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Re: Rapid Reactions Week 6 38-33 Loss @ Arizona

Postby mdb1958 » Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:39 pm

DanTurksGhost wrote:
mdb1958 wrote:When your the fourth ranked offense in the league and your defense allows every team they play to match every stat even higher or better, yeah you should know you need to be a scoring machine.


You know as well as I do that "fourth ranked offense" is a pretty misleading statistic considering the circumstances.


Garbage stats go league wide dont they?
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Re: Rapid Reactions Week 6 38-33 Loss @ Arizona

Postby Caradoc » Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:40 pm

mdb1958 wrote:
DanTurksGhost wrote:
You know as well as I do that "fourth ranked offense" is a pretty misleading statistic considering the circumstances.


Garbage stats go league wide dont they?



Only if everyone is getting blown out. So, no, they don't.
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Re: Rapid Reactions Week 6 38-33 Loss @ Arizona

Postby mdb1958 » Mon Oct 16, 2017 7:52 pm

Caradoc wrote:
mdb1958 wrote:
Garbage stats go league wide dont they?



Only if everyone is getting blown out. So, no, they don't.


List the teams that dont have a prevent defense.
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Re: Rapid Reactions Week 6 38-33 Loss @ Arizona

Postby Caradoc » Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:16 pm

mdb1958 wrote:
Caradoc wrote:

Only if everyone is getting blown out. So, no, they don't.


List the teams that dont have a prevent defense.



Since you apparently don't understand the meaning of garbage time, let me help. It's when a team is getting blown out and the other team Is playing the clock and more interested in slowing down your scoring than preventing it. And you know who doesn't have garbage time to pad their stats? People who aren't getting their asses blown out.

So, again, not everyone gets garbage time stat padding.

You're welcome
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Re: Rapid Reactions Week 6 38-33 Loss @ Arizona

Postby Agent Orange » Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:48 pm

Alpha wrote:
Agent Orange wrote:Just about as frustrated as I ever have been with the Bucs. We have the talent. Sure there are the Comte’s and Hargreaves is not good. Overall though this team has more talent than we have had since the Super Bowl.



You people are delusional.

Just because we may have "more talent", doesn't mean we have "more talent" everywhere. At WR? TE? LB? DT? I'll grant you that...but ANYWHERE else? No.

Our secondary SUCKS. It did last year and it does now. And I DEFY you to show me where this alleged "talent" is paying off. When the opponent runs a 4 WR set and CHRIS CONTE is having to cover man/man? Hargreaves has proven to be a bust thus far...and yet he's our "2nd best" CB?

We do NOT have "talent" in our secondary. PERHAPS the Evans kid will pan out at safety. Other than that? We've got ****. Why do you suppose every team has torched our secondary this year? Mike Smith has been a damn good DC in this league for a long time. Did he suddenly forget how to coach? I highly doubt it.

Alpha wrote:This game was OVER after the first 3 Cardinal, offensive series'. The final score means nothing and is in NO WAY indicative of the outcome.

Myself...as well as other posters (not to mention Vegas) thought this team was an 8 win team (give or take). This still sounds about right.

Here is the single most disturbing thing from this entire game...from my perspective:

This defense looks like they do not understand what Mike Smith is trying to have them do. This is how they looked for (roughly) the first half of last year. The run D not withstanding (which was horrid), there were coverage breakdowns on nearly EVERY Cardinal offensive play. I'll re-watch to verify but most were BLATANT, even watching the game in real time.

If you'll remember, the BEARS were moving the ball on us fairly easily, until the turnovers came. They did and we were able to put the game away quickly. That doesn't mean that the Bears weren't moving, pretty much at will, on our defense, until they were forced to scrap their game plan.

The Vikings, Giants, Patriots and now the Cards have ALL moved up and down the field on this defense. I'm "sensing a trend" here...

As I (and I'm sure others as well) have been saying for MONTHS now...this defense is TALENT STARVED. Especially in the secondary. You can deny it all you like but opposing defensive co-ordinators clearly see this and are abusing this D. The lack of talent combined with the inability of the coaching staff AND players to get on the same page, is going to cost this team until it gets figured out.

I'm not as concerned about the offense and frankly, they don't matter right now because our defense is a very real problem. And has been from game 1.


I actually read your bottom post and agreed with it. The Bears were able to move the ball on us and then Glennon did what Glennon always does. Now, let’s talk about the talent. I absolutely do not understand why we continue to employ Conte. Other than him though we have Tandy who has played very well for us in the past, TJ Ward is a Super Bowl champion on one of the best defenses ever. You cannot tell me he forgot how to play. Brent Grimes is a true #1 Cornerback. From there we are left with our #1 pick that looked good this offseason but now looks like he cannot cover or tackle. Add to that Levante, Keon, Beckwith and Lynch, Baker, McCoy and McDonald there is plenty of talent. In my opinion it is coaching or game plan. We looked pathetic out there. Like a bunch of scrubs.
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Re: Rapid Reactions Week 6 38-33 Loss @ Arizona

Postby mdb1958 » Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:10 am

Caradoc wrote:
mdb1958 wrote:
List the teams that dont have a prevent defense.



Since you apparently don't understand the meaning of garbage time, let me help. It's when a team is getting blown out and the other team Is playing the clock and more interested in slowing down your scoring than preventing it. And you know who doesn't have garbage time to pad their stats? People who aren't getting their asses blown out.

So, again, not everyone gets garbage time stat padding.

You're welcome



So your saying Winstons 4th quarter heroics werent garbage stats, he just waited till the 4th quarter to throw for 200 and something yards to look like the quarterback we always wanted.

Sit down/putyour little hat on/and get in the corner.

As time is winding down, any team that is down two scores usually gets easy (how ever many) yards.
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Re: Rapid Reactions Week 6 38-33 Loss @ Arizona

Postby mdb1958 » Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:04 am

"I'm not as concerned about the offense and frankly, they don't matter right now because our defense is a very real problem. And has been from game 1."


We know and the coaching staff knows it. Thing is defenses know we want a ball control offense --- its time for the offensive scoring machine to surface.
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Re: Rapid Reactions Week 6 38-33 Loss @ Arizona

Postby Mex-Buc » Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:38 pm

0-2 in 2 straight years for me in AZ.. I've seen 78 pts scored against my team in 2 freaking games..

Same as last year, huge hole to end the first half, disappointing, very very disappointing..

Expected a lot more from these guys.. damn it.. I got yesterday to my home and still haven't recovered from this embarrassment of a performance they showed on Sunday.
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Re: Rapid Reactions Week 6 38-33 Loss @ Arizona

Postby Sammich » Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:16 pm

DreadNaught wrote:So going through the drive chart and noticed the Cards first 3 drives were as follows;

6 plays - 75yds = TD
7 plays - 86yds = TD
7 plays - 95yds = TD

20 plays - 256yds = 21 points barely into the 2nd quarter. They followed that up w/ a 10 play - 60yd FG drive to make it 24-0, which put them at 30 plays - 316yds.

Both Cards TDs in the 2nd half came off Fitzmagic INTs.

Urghhh. We just got dominated early. Tough to blame the anyone but the defense for allowing a start like that. Just terrible...



Now let's look at our first 3 drives:

6 plays - 27yds = punt
7 plays - 41yds = punt
3 plays - 0yds = punt

I'm not saying the defense didn't suck (they sure did) but the offense didn't do them any favors.
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Re: Rapid Reactions Week 6 38-33 Loss @ Arizona

Postby MJW » Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:04 am

I'm sure this has been mentioned in this thread...but the 2017 Buccaneers defense is on pace to be the worst in franchise history.

Again, the worst in the 43 year history of our franchise. Including 1976, Leeman Bennett, the Raheem years, the Lovie years, etc.

The worst.
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Re: Rapid Reactions Week 6 38-33 Loss @ Arizona

Postby mdb1958 » Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:00 am

MJW wrote:I'm sure this has been mentioned in this thread...but the 2017 Buccaneers defense is on pace to be the worst in franchise history.

Again, the worst in the 43 year history of our franchise. Including 1976, Leeman Bennett, the Raheem years, the Lovie years, etc.

The worst.


I said it earlier, our defense thinking they have finally mastered the Smith plan - but - it turns out others have known about it for 15 years...

Does any think they were playing his defense right, even if its an outdated defense I would think it should not of looked that bad.
Last edited by mdb1958 on Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rapid Reactions Week 6 38-33 Loss @ Arizona

Postby mdb1958 » Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:02 am

Now if the Bucs had approached this season like they were in gladiator school instead of playing hard knocks things might be different.
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Re: Rapid Reactions Week 6 38-33 Loss @ Arizona

Postby Buc2 » Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:50 am

MJW wrote:I'm sure this has been mentioned in this thread...but the 2017 Buccaneers defense is on pace to be the worst in franchise history.

Again, the worst in the 43 year history of our franchise. Including 1976, Leeman Bennett, the Raheem years, the Lovie years, etc.

The worst.

Not to nit pick, but that s/b 41 years + 5 games history.
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Re: Rapid Reactions Week 6 38-33 Loss @ Arizona

Postby DreadNaught » Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:09 am

Sammich wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:So going through the drive chart and noticed the Cards first 3 drives were as follows;

6 plays - 75yds = TD
7 plays - 86yds = TD
7 plays - 95yds = TD

20 plays - 256yds = 21 points barely into the 2nd quarter. They followed that up w/ a 10 play - 60yd FG drive to make it 24-0, which put them at 30 plays - 316yds.

Both Cards TDs in the 2nd half came off Fitzmagic INTs.

Urghhh. We just got dominated early. Tough to blame the anyone but the defense for allowing a start like that. Just terrible...



Now let's look at our first 3 drives:

6 plays - 27yds = punt
7 plays - 41yds = punt
3 plays - 0yds = punt

I'm not saying the defense didn't suck (they sure did) but the offense didn't do them any favors.


That is fair, but our starting QB got hurt on the first drive of the game and we're on the road. I'm not excusing the offense for not answering any of Cardinals scores. But when you're on the road and home team wins the toss and elects to take the ball first your defense has to make stand early, or atleast weather the storm. That didn't happen and before we could blink it was 21-0, then 24-0. But just as I don't give the offense kudos for the stats they accumulated when down multiple scores in the 4th (as they've done in 3/5 games thus far), I'm not going to praise the defense for making stops or getting turnovers in the 2nd half after letting Cards consistently drive the ball down the field 10yds per play on the way to a 24-0 lead early on.

There was plenty of terrible football on both sides of the ball to share the blame.
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Re: Rapid Reactions Week 6 38-33 Loss @ Arizona

Postby DreadNaught » Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:20 am

mdb1958 wrote:
MJW wrote:I'm sure this has been mentioned in this thread...but the 2017 Buccaneers defense is on pace to be the worst in franchise history.

Again, the worst in the 43 year history of our franchise. Including 1976, Leeman Bennett, the Raheem years, the Lovie years, etc.

The worst.


I said it earlier, our defense thinking they have finally mastered the Smith plan - but - it turns out others have known about it for 15 years...

Does any think they were playing his defense right, even if its an outdated defense I would think it should not of looked that bad.


Without checking, I'm pretty sure last years defense was pace after the TNF game vs Atlanta (which was the 8th game of the season iirc) to be the worst in franchise history regarding yards against.

This years squad has all the same cast of characters vice marginal role players like Akeem Spence, Daryl Smith, and Bradley McDougald, who we've replaced with the likes of Baker, Beckwith, Ward, Evans, and McClain.

We're getting NO edge rush. 1 sack in 5 games from our DE's is simply unacceptable. Ayers and Spence are invisible out there. VH3 hasn't shown near the aggressiveness he showed in the offseason and preseason after coaches telling him they want to see him be more aggressive this season. It's like VH3 was listening during the preseason when games didn't matter, but once the lights come on for the regular season he reverts back to playing soft/scared.

Mike Smith's defense is not outdated. Most NFL defenses are running similar concepts which include C-3 zone, quarters, and mixing in some m2m looks w/a single high safety. We blitz about at about the same rate as league average (slightly more iirc).

When I watch the Bucs play defense this season and compare them to what I'm seeing around the rest of the NFL I see a lack of effort/tenacity each and every play. The Bucs play like that sometimes and when they do we get stops and turnovers, but for whatever reason there have been far too many drives where the defense just playing with the same level of intensity and just going through the motions out there.
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