The Kicker Battle: Folk v Aguayo

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Re: The Kicker Battle: Folk v Aguayo

Postby The Outsider » Tue May 30, 2017 3:46 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
The Outsider wrote:I'm stll on the fence about this. Competition is good and I don'[t have a problem with it but a lot of great kickers (especially drafted ones) had shitty first seasons, including Janikowski, Vinatieri, and Gostkowski. At the end of the day if Aguayo loses and gets cut I'm on board with it, but I'd hate to see him catch on and realize his potential with another team. Because he will get another chance somewhere.


Yeah, but we can't risk another season from our kicker like we had last season where he was the worst in the NFL.

I totally understand once we spent a day 2 draft pick on Aguayo that he was going to be the guy in 2016 b/c no team cuts a rookie 2nd rounder before his first NFL game.

However, there were plenty of warning signs in TC and the preseason last season w/ Aguayo. He struggled from day 1. So going into year two we HAD to bring in competition for him to prevent another situation like last year.


Like I said, I'm good with the competition and everything I just have a bad feeling that if we cut him there will be a pretty good chance he becomes really good for someone else.
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Re: The Kicker Battle: Folk v Aguayo

Postby PrimeMinister » Tue May 30, 2017 4:26 pm

The Outsider wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
Yeah, but we can't risk another season from our kicker like we had last season where he was the worst in the NFL.

I totally understand once we spent a day 2 draft pick on Aguayo that he was going to be the guy in 2016 b/c no team cuts a rookie 2nd rounder before his first NFL game.

However, there were plenty of warning signs in TC and the preseason last season w/ Aguayo. He struggled from day 1. So going into year two we HAD to bring in competition for him to prevent another situation like last year.


Like I said, I'm good with the competition and everything I just have a bad feeling that if we cut him there will be a pretty good chance he becomes really good for someone else.


So what would you prefer Koetter & Licht to do if Folk is better this preseason?
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Re: The Kicker Battle: Folk v Aguayo

Postby Blue 80 » Tue May 30, 2017 6:29 pm

PrimeMinister wrote:
The Outsider wrote:
Like I said, I'm good with the competition and everything I just have a bad feeling that if we cut him there will be a pretty good chance he becomes really good for someone else.


So what would you prefer Koetter & Licht to do if Folk is better this preseason?

Keep the best of the two.

Aguayo is not the first second round bust to ever happen if he can't win the job.
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Re: The Kicker Battle: Folk v Aguayo

Postby Caradoc » Tue May 30, 2017 6:38 pm

If the "battle" continues at this pace, Aguayo is gone. You can't keep him, and you can't have him eating a roster spot to "develop". Not much more to it than that.
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Re: The Kicker Battle: Folk v Aguayo

Postby DanTurksGhost » Tue May 30, 2017 7:05 pm

If Folk out-kicks Aguayo this pre-season and the team keeps Aguayo over Folk... that says a WHOLE lot about where their priorities lie. I don't care if Aguayo eventually becomes a Pro-Bowler. It doesn't matter what he does years from now on some other team. THIS team carries just ONE kicker, so therefore they MUST keep the one who will give them the best chance to win THIS SEASON.

Imagine what would happen if Folk out-kicks Aguayo, the Bucs keep Aguayo, Aguayo misses a game-winning kick or missed a kick that allows another team to beat us AND the Bucs end up missing the playoffs by a game?

Licht MUST set aside his "my pick" bias -- if he has one -- when this competition is decided. To do otherwise is a total abdication of his responsibility to the team and would send a very disturbing message to the rest of the team.
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Re: The Kicker Battle: Folk v Aguayo

Postby Blue 80 » Tue May 30, 2017 7:51 pm

I don't see it happening, Dan, unless it's close.

If Bobby starts nailing it in camp and preseason, the decision to stick with him becomes justifiable. Folk so far is making it tough, but we should always consider the possibility that Aguayo can win the job.
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Re: The Kicker Battle: Folk v Aguayo

Postby DanTurksGhost » Tue May 30, 2017 11:14 pm

Based on our investment, I would like him to win it. But if Folk is the better kicker, he'd better be the guy on the final 53. If Roberto is best, or even, then keeping him makes sense.
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Re: The Kicker Battle: Folk v Aguayo

Postby Blue 80 » Wed May 31, 2017 6:02 am

DanTurksGhost wrote:Based on our investment, I would like him to win it. But if Folk is the better kicker, he'd better be the guy on the final 53. If Roberto is best, or even, then keeping him makes sense.


See, everyone? This is what coming to an agreement looks like.
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Re: The Kicker Battle: Folk v Aguayo

Postby Naismith » Wed May 31, 2017 10:40 am

I want the best man to win the job, but I'm definitely pulling for Folk.
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Re: The Kicker Battle: Folk v Aguayo

Postby Doctor » Wed May 31, 2017 2:11 pm

Naismith wrote:I want the best man to win the job, but I'm definitely pulling for Folk.

Why is that?

I agree I want the best man to win the job, no matter who it is but I'd much rather it be Roberto. Much rather he joins the Janikowski, Vinatieri, and Gostkowski group of bad 70-something percent rookie kickers turned franchise cornerstone for a decade than to have Folk, who has had several 70-something % seasons already, and even if he "turns it on" will do so for what? A few more years?
Totally agree the best man should get the job, but I can't see why you hope that man turns out to be Folk.
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Re: The Kicker Battle: Folk v Aguayo

Postby Bootz2004 » Wed May 31, 2017 4:20 pm

I think all things being equal everyone should want Roberto to win the job. Doesn't mean he will. But why wouldn't you want a guy we used a 2nd round pick on, is 23 years old and has a chance to improve, to win the job.
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Re: The Kicker Battle: Folk v Aguayo

Postby Naismith » Wed May 31, 2017 10:24 pm

Doctor wrote:
Naismith wrote:I want the best man to win the job, but I'm definitely pulling for Folk.

Why is that?

I agree I want the best man to win the job, no matter who it is but I'd much rather it be Roberto. Much rather he joins the Janikowski, Vinatieri, and Gostkowski group of bad 70-something percent rookie kickers turned franchise cornerstone for a decade than to have Folk, who has had several 70-something % seasons already, and even if he "turns it on" will do so for what? A few more years?
Totally agree the best man should get the job, but I can't see why you hope that man turns out to be Folk.


Janikowski is a pretty low bar. Nick Folk has a better career percentage than Janikowski.

I don't see any benefit from Aguayo winning the job. I do see a benefit in cutting him and Licht learning a valuable lesson about wasting high draft assets on a position that is so easily replaced and filled in free agency.
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Re: The Kicker Battle: Folk v Aguayo

Postby Nano » Wed May 31, 2017 10:31 pm

So you're pulling for Aguayo to lose the competition so that Licht can be taught a lesson? That's retarded.
Last edited by Nano on Thu Jun 01, 2017 12:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Kicker Battle: Folk v Aguayo

Postby Teitan » Wed May 31, 2017 10:32 pm

Naismith wrote:
Doctor wrote:Why is that?

I agree I want the best man to win the job, no matter who it is but I'd much rather it be Roberto. Much rather he joins the Janikowski, Vinatieri, and Gostkowski group of bad 70-something percent rookie kickers turned franchise cornerstone for a decade than to have Folk, who has had several 70-something % seasons already, and even if he "turns it on" will do so for what? A few more years?
Totally agree the best man should get the job, but I can't see why you hope that man turns out to be Folk.


Janikowski is a pretty low bar. Nick Folk has a better career percentage than Janikowski.

a position that is so easily replaced and filled in free agency.



Don't you think we'd have easily replaced and filled our mediocre kickers over the years through free agency by now?
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Re: The Kicker Battle: Folk v Aguayo

Postby Naismith » Wed May 31, 2017 10:40 pm

They did. They signed Matt Bryant and let him leave. They signed Connor Barth and he got hurt.
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Re: The Kicker Battle: Folk v Aguayo

Postby Teitan » Wed May 31, 2017 10:47 pm

But it's so easy. Couldn't we just grab one of the many good free agents? You've mentioned two kicker over the last 10 years. Surely there's more good ones to easily replace our shitty ones!
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Re: The Kicker Battle: Folk v Aguayo

Postby Naismith » Wed May 31, 2017 10:54 pm

Teitan wrote:But it's so easy. Couldn't we just grab one of the many good free agents? You've mentioned two kicker over the last 10 years. Surely there's more good ones to easily replace our shitty ones!


Yes, there have been plenty of good FA kickers available over the years.
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Re: The Kicker Battle: Folk v Aguayo

Postby Doctor » Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:23 am

Hate when people bring up Matt Bryant when we're talking about kickers. It's total hindsight. Bryant was a 83% kicker when here (80% before in NYG), which put him just below currently unemployed Dan Carpenter's career avg of 84%. Good, but not where you want to settle. No one on here cried when Bryant left. No one cried the following year when he only made 7 of his 10 FGs for ATL. But when he ended up clicking and becoming a great kicker, now everyone is like "we should've never let him go". Thanks Captain Hindsight. Remind us again and Michael Bennett or Steve Young too while you're at it.

Also, Conor Barth kicked 73% the first year here (after beating out Bryant), the 82% the following year. So you want him to be the standard?

Kicker is the most wishy washy never know what you are going to get until you get it yet can totally make or break any given game position on the team. Yet everyone thinks they have it figured out.
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Re: The Kicker Battle: Folk v Aguayo

Postby Bootz2004 » Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:28 am

IIRC there was a kicking competition between Bryant and Mike Nugent and Nugent won. He went on to suck during the regular season and we cut him. Same thing could happen here. Folk could win then immediately go on to miss 2 consecutive game winning games in the 1st 2 weeks. It happens. Bringing up Bryant is ridiculous. We didn't release an all time great. People just love to whine.
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Re: The Kicker Battle: Folk v Aguayo

Postby NYBF » Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:31 am

Doctor wrote:Hate when people bring up Matt Bryant when we're talking about kickers. It's total hindsight. Bryant was a 83% kicker when here (80% before in NYG), which put him just below currently unemployed Dan Carpenter's career avg of 84%. Good, but not where you want to settle. No one on here cried when Bryant left. No one cried the following year when he only made 7 of his 10 FGs for ATL. But when he ended up clicking and becoming a great kicker, now everyone is like "we should've never let him go". Thanks Captain Hindsight. Remind us again and Michael Bennett or Steve Young too while you're at it.


Don't forget Bo Jackson.
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Re: The Kicker Battle: Folk v Aguayo

Postby The Outsider » Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:24 pm

PrimeMinister wrote:
The Outsider wrote:
Like I said, I'm good with the competition and everything I just have a bad feeling that if we cut him there will be a pretty good chance he becomes really good for someone else.


So what would you prefer Koetter & Licht to do if Folk is better this preseason?


I'd prefer them to do whatever they think is best, considering they're the coach and GM and see these guys practice every day and I'm just some pothead on a message board.
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Re: The Kicker Battle: Folk v Aguayo

Postby The Outsider » Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:33 pm

Doctor wrote:Hate when people bring up Matt Bryant when we're talking about kickers. It's total hindsight. Bryant was a 83% kicker when here (80% before in NYG), which put him just below currently unemployed Dan Carpenter's career avg of 84%. Good, but not where you want to settle. No one on here cried when Bryant left. No one cried the following year when he only made 7 of his 10 FGs for ATL. But when he ended up clicking and becoming a great kicker, now everyone is like "we should've never let him go". Thanks Captain Hindsight. Remind us again and Michael Bennett or Steve Young too while you're at it.

Also, Conor Barth kicked 73% the first year here (after beating out Bryant), the 82% the following year. So you want him to be the standard?

Kicker is the most wishy washy never know what you are going to get until you get it yet can totally make or break any given game position on the team. Yet everyone thinks they have it figured out.


82/83% really isn't that bad. If you look at the best career averages of all time 83% is still top 20. Guys like Mason Crosby, the oft mentioned Janikowski, even Hall of Famer Morten Andersen are below that at 80%, 80%, and 79% respectively. Sure there are guys in the league right now who are better, but there is something going on. Either kickers are getting better as a whole or we're in an abberant generation in which we have a much higher number than average of great kickers. For instance, of the top 23 kickers of all time by FG% 18 are active players. (23 is also the spot where career % falls below 83%, 15 being the spot it surpasses it and goes to 84%)

Source: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/l ... career.htm

I just get sick of hearing people act like kicking in the low 80s is terrible when it's actually above average.
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Re: The Kicker Battle: Folk v Aguayo

Postby The Outsider » Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:37 pm

And because I like artificially inflating my post count, this article with the included graphics does a pretty good job explaining the difficulty in analyzing kickers by using year to year percentage statistics.

http://www.tampabay.com/sports/football ... et/2325751
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Re: The Kicker Battle: Folk v Aguayo

Postby Naismith » Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:10 pm

The question wasn't whether Bryant or Barth should be the standard, it was why haven't the Bucs been able to adequately fill the role through free agency. They have.
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Re: The Kicker Battle: Folk v Aguayo

Postby Caradoc » Thu Jun 01, 2017 6:11 pm

Doctor wrote:Hate when people bring up Matt Bryant when we're talking about kickers. It's total hindsight. Bryant was a 83% kicker when here (80% before in NYG), which put him just below currently unemployed Dan Carpenter's career avg of 84%. Good, but not where you want to settle. No one on here cried when Bryant left. No one cried the following year when he only made 7 of his 10 FGs for ATL. But when he ended up clicking and becoming a great kicker, now everyone is like "we should've never let him go". Thanks Captain Hindsight. Remind us again and Michael Bennett or Steve Young too while you're at it.

Also, Conor Barth kicked 73% the first year here (after beating out Bryant), the 82% the following year. So you want him to be the standard?

Kicker is the most wishy washy never know what you are going to get until you get it yet can totally make or break any given game position on the team. Yet everyone thinks they have it figured out.


Bennett wasn't hindsight.
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Re: The Kicker Battle: Folk v Aguayo

Postby The Outsider » Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:44 pm

Naismith wrote:The question wasn't whether Bryant or Barth should be the standard, it was why haven't the Bucs been able to adequately fill the role through free agency. They have.



Nigga, are you intentionally obtuse?
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Re: The Kicker Battle: Folk v Aguayo

Postby The Outsider » Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:45 pm

Caradoc wrote:
Doctor wrote:Hate when people bring up Matt Bryant when we're talking about kickers. It's total hindsight. Bryant was a 83% kicker when here (80% before in NYG), which put him just below currently unemployed Dan Carpenter's career avg of 84%. Good, but not where you want to settle. No one on here cried when Bryant left. No one cried the following year when he only made 7 of his 10 FGs for ATL. But when he ended up clicking and becoming a great kicker, now everyone is like "we should've never let him go". Thanks Captain Hindsight. Remind us again and Michael Bennett or Steve Young too while you're at it.

Also, Conor Barth kicked 73% the first year here (after beating out Bryant), the 82% the following year. So you want him to be the standard?

Kicker is the most wishy washy never know what you are going to get until you get it yet can totally make or break any given game position on the team. Yet everyone thinks they have it figured out.


Bennett wasn't hindsight.


Truth. Bennett was obviously the best d-end and arguably the best d-lineman on the team before we let him walk.
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Re: The Kicker Battle: Folk v Aguayo

Postby NYBF » Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:03 pm

We shouldn't settle for anything less than 85%. 90+ from inside 40. Should be easy enough to find a guy.
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Re: The Kicker Battle: Folk v Aguayo

Postby DanTurksGhost » Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:33 pm

NYBF wrote:We shouldn't settle for anything less than 85%. 90+ from inside 40. Should be easy enough to find a guy.


85% overall is reasonable. That would put our kicker in the top 20 for FG percentage. Definitely not asking too much.
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Re: The Kicker Battle: Folk v Aguayo

Postby Naismith » Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:08 am

The Outsider wrote:
Naismith wrote:The question wasn't whether Bryant or Barth should be the standard, it was why haven't the Bucs been able to adequately fill the role through free agency. They have.



Nigga, are you intentionally obtuse?


Not sure what you're talking about since I wasn't responding to you and you seem to have no idea what I was responding to.
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