Bucs sign JJ Wilcox

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Re: Bucs sign JJ Wilcox

Postby Bootz2004 » Sun Mar 12, 2017 8:38 am

PFF matters today I see. Got it.
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Re: Bucs sign JJ Wilcox

Postby Naismith » Sun Mar 12, 2017 8:44 am

Bootz2004 wrote:PFF matters today I see. Got it.


I'd love to know what you're implying with this post.
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Re: Bucs sign JJ Wilcox

Postby Heisenberg » Sun Mar 12, 2017 8:45 am

How much is McDougald expected to get?looks. Looks like Conte is around a 2.6 mill cap hit.. Around what Bradley got last year
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Re: Bucs sign JJ Wilcox

Postby PrimeMinister » Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:00 am

Why did we keep Conte over McDougald?
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Re: Bucs sign JJ Wilcox

Postby Naismith » Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:04 am

PrimeMinister wrote:Why did we keep Conte over McDougald?


I'd guess they didn't pick either over the other, that they could come to terms with Conte and not McDougald. I doubt McDougald would have accepted the terms that Conte received. I think Wilcox signing probably means McDougald is moving on but the longer he goes without a deal, the more likely I think it is that he also returns.
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Re: Bucs sign JJ Wilcox

Postby ImAWalkingCorpse » Sun Mar 12, 2017 10:18 am

Naismith wrote:
PrimeMinister wrote:Why did we keep Conte over McDougald?


I'd guess they didn't pick either over the other, that they could come to terms with Conte and not McDougald. I doubt McDougald would have accepted the terms that Conte received. I think Wilcox signing probably means McDougald is moving on but the longer he goes without a deal, the more likely I think it is that he also returns.

I tend to think this as well.
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Re: Bucs sign JJ Wilcox

Postby Ken Carson » Sun Mar 12, 2017 11:08 am

Bootz2004 wrote:PFF matters today I see. Got it.

It always matters more than 'this guy isn't better than that guy because I think so.'
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Re: Bucs sign JJ Wilcox

Postby Bootz2004 » Sun Mar 12, 2017 11:10 am

Ken Carson wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:PFF matters today I see. Got it.

It always matters more than 'this guy isn't better than that guy because I think so.'


Not always. Just when it meets someone's agenda.
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Re: Bucs sign JJ Wilcox

Postby Naismith » Sun Mar 12, 2017 11:12 am

Naismith wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:PFF matters today I see. Got it.


I'd love to know what you're implying with this post.
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Re: Bucs sign JJ Wilcox

Postby Heisenberg » Sun Mar 12, 2017 11:21 am

Bootz2004 wrote:
Ken Carson wrote:It always matters more than 'this guy isn't better than that guy because I think so.'


Not always. Just when it meets someone's agenda.

That Wilcox is better than Conte? That's a simple fact. We resigned one of the worst safeties.. Hopefully he doesn't see much time.
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Re: Bucs sign JJ Wilcox

Postby Miller4Prez64 » Sun Mar 12, 2017 11:34 am

I don't think Wilcox is horrible, but it's not a signing to be excited about. I think McDougald is done and we'll draft another safety and there will be a big training camp/preseason battle to decide who starts and gets most of the snaps.
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Re: Bucs sign JJ Wilcox

Postby Naismith » Sun Mar 12, 2017 11:45 am

I won't claim to know much about Wilcox but I think there are reasons for optimism going forward. His athletic profile is very impressive and he has only been playing the position for a short period of time so there's likely still room to grow. You know he was coached well in Dallas and there's not a huge financial investment in him, so he's not being handed a starting job or anything.

I assume they will draft a safety, but not early. This seems to be about the kind of player they feel is needed for the position, not a superstar, just a relatively inexpensive contract that they can have compete with similarly inexpensive guys.
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Re: Bucs sign JJ Wilcox

Postby Ken Carson » Sun Mar 12, 2017 12:37 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
Ken Carson wrote:It always matters more than 'this guy isn't better than that guy because I think so.'


Not always. Just when it meets someone's agenda.

Your view of them (they're right when their data aligns with what I subjectively think) is equally as shortsighted as someone who is a slave to PFF metrics.
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Re: Bucs sign JJ Wilcox

Postby Bootz2004 » Sun Mar 12, 2017 12:40 pm

Ken Carson wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
Not always. Just when it meets someone's agenda.

Your view of them (they're right when their data aligns with what I subjectively think) is equally as shortsighted as someone who is a slave to PFF metrics.


Your admitting that you're biased as far as PFF metrics are concerned and MY view is short sighted? At least my view is consistent where yours waivers from how you feel about the topic at hand.
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Re: Bucs sign JJ Wilcox

Postby VauntedTampa2 » Sun Mar 12, 2017 12:49 pm

I'd love to hear of bootz' Dallas Cowboy film breakdown of JJ Wilcox.

Jesus, ****ing, Christ lol
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Re: Bucs sign JJ Wilcox

Postby Ken Carson » Sun Mar 12, 2017 1:14 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
Ken Carson wrote:Your view of them (they're right when their data aligns with what I subjectively think) is equally as shortsighted as someone who is a slave to PFF metrics.


Your admitting that you're biased as far as PFF metrics are concerned and MY view is short sighted? At least my view is consistent where yours waivers from how you feel about the topic at hand.

I use PFF as information to include in assessment. Not as an assessment (or as a waste of internet real estate).
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Re: Bucs sign JJ Wilcox

Postby Sammich » Sun Mar 12, 2017 5:05 pm

McDougald is Coors Light.
Wilcox is Bud Light.

You may prefer one over the other, but ultimately they're the same thing.
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Re: Bucs sign JJ Wilcox

Postby Rocker » Sun Mar 12, 2017 5:23 pm

Sammich wrote:McDougald is Coors Light.
Wilcox is Bud Light.

You may prefer one over the other, but ultimately they're the same thing.


Eh. I drink Coors Light when I don't want to get drunk.

I drink Bud Light when I'm already drunk and hating myself.
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Re: Bucs sign JJ Wilcox

Postby Caradoc » Sun Mar 12, 2017 5:30 pm

Wilcox has a lot more sand in his pants than McDougald does. Neither is a stud, but they aren't the same thing.

PFF player grades are meaningless, subjective, and biased garbage. Why people bring them up still continues to amaze me.

We signed Conte instead of McDougald already because Conte would sign already.
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Re: Bucs sign JJ Wilcox

Postby Naismith » Sun Mar 12, 2017 5:32 pm

Caradoc wrote:PFF player grades are meaningless, subjective, and biased garbage. Why people bring them up still continues to amaze me.


Because you're wrong about this.
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Re: Bucs sign JJ Wilcox

Postby Caradoc » Sun Mar 12, 2017 5:36 pm

Naismith wrote:
Caradoc wrote:PFF player grades are meaningless, subjective, and biased garbage. Why people bring them up still continues to amaze me.


Because you're wrong about this.



No, I'm not.

Do you even have any idea how they make those grades?

Teams pay for the other stats and throw the grades in the trash. Only uninformed fans think they are worth anything because "teams pay for PFF". Even though at some point or another pretty much every coach or staff member in the NFL has said how useless those grades are.
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Re: Bucs sign JJ Wilcox

Postby Four Verticals » Sun Mar 12, 2017 5:41 pm

Naismith wrote:
PrimeMinister wrote:Why did we keep Conte over McDougald?


I'd guess they didn't pick either over the other, that they could come to terms with Conte and not McDougald. I doubt McDougald would have accepted the terms that Conte received. I think Wilcox signing probably means McDougald is moving on but the longer he goes without a deal, the more likely I think it is that he also returns.


The only way I see a return is that he's not signed anywhere prior to the draft and the Bucs end up not drafting a Safety. I think both are unlikely. I think the Bucs intention is to draft a Safety they expect to play within a year if not immediately.
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Re: Bucs sign JJ Wilcox

Postby Naismith » Sun Mar 12, 2017 5:43 pm

Caradoc wrote:
Naismith wrote:
Because you're wrong about this.



No, I'm not.

Do you even have any idea how they make those grades?

Teams pay for the other stats and throw the grades in the trash. Only uninformed fans think they are worth anything because "teams pay for PFF". Even though at some point or another pretty much every coach or staff member in the NFL has said how useless those grades are.


Yes, I do know how they make the grades.

I don't believe you are speaking with any level of authority on the last part of your statement nor have any way of knowing what teams do with the grades. Regardless, a grade from PFF has a lot more value and "accuracy" than the opinion of forum members who are neither watching every player with an analytical eye or (in instances like this) watching a player at all.
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Re: Bucs sign JJ Wilcox

Postby MJW » Sun Mar 12, 2017 10:30 pm

Naismith wrote:
Caradoc wrote:

No, I'm not.

Do you even have any idea how they make those grades?

Teams pay for the other stats and throw the grades in the trash. Only uninformed fans think they are worth anything because "teams pay for PFF". Even though at some point or another pretty much every coach or staff member in the NFL has said how useless those grades are.


Yes, I do know how they make the grades.

I don't believe you are speaking with any level of authority on the last part of your statement nor have any way of knowing what teams do with the grades. Regardless, a grade from PFF has a lot more value and "accuracy" than the opinion of forum members who are neither watching every player with an analytical eye or (in instances like this) watching a player at all.


Where I fall on it.

Their methodology for grading players can be argued about, deserves legit criticism. But they watch every snap a player takes, intently, with a pencil in hand. If they come to the conclusion a player is playing good, or a player is playing bad, I'm probably going to accept that in broad strokes. Especially against "I watch Youtube highlights..." or, "My friend is a fan of that team and he says...." or, they were the game on the bar TV a few weeks ago..."
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Re: Bucs sign JJ Wilcox

Postby Ken Carson » Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:15 am

MJW wrote:
Naismith wrote:
Yes, I do know how they make the grades.

I don't believe you are speaking with any level of authority on the last part of your statement nor have any way of knowing what teams do with the grades. Regardless, a grade from PFF has a lot more value and "accuracy" than the opinion of forum members who are neither watching every player with an analytical eye or (in instances like this) watching a player at all.


Where I fall on it.

Their methodology for grading players can be argued about, deserves legit criticism. But they watch every snap a player takes, intently, with a pencil in hand. If they come to the conclusion a player is playing good, or a player is playing bad, I'm probably going to accept that in broad strokes. Especially against "I watch Youtube highlights..." or, "My friend is a fan of that team and he says...." or, they were the game on the bar TV a few weeks ago..."

That's precisely the point. They make it objective, even when doing so probably removes nuance. For example, if a guy drops an interception, they grade the QB like he threw an interception. If a guy drops an easy TD pass on a ridiculous throw through traffic, they grade it like the QB threw a ridiculous TD pass through traffic. At the same time, the cap every play's maximum impact on grading.

But regardless of all of the potential flaws with their system, they are operating from infinitely more information about the league and its players than anyone on this or any other football message board.
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Re: Bucs sign JJ Wilcox

Postby MJW » Mon Mar 13, 2017 6:21 am

Ken Carson wrote:
MJW wrote:
Where I fall on it.

Their methodology for grading players can be argued about, deserves legit criticism. But they watch every snap a player takes, intently, with a pencil in hand. If they come to the conclusion a player is playing good, or a player is playing bad, I'm probably going to accept that in broad strokes. Especially against "I watch Youtube highlights..." or, "My friend is a fan of that team and he says...." or, they were the game on the bar TV a few weeks ago..."

That's precisely the point. They make it objective, even when doing so probably removes nuance. For example, if a guy drops an interception, they grade the QB like he threw an interception. If a guy drops an easy TD pass on a ridiculous throw through traffic, they grade it like the QB threw a ridiculous TD pass through traffic. At the same time, the cap every play's maximum impact on grading.

But regardless of all of the potential flaws with their system, they are operating from infinitely more information about the league and its players than anyone on this or any other football message board.


Agree on all points. And truth be told, if you gave this assignment to a room of average football fans: Watch every play X number of times, and grade each individual player, they'd know more than us "smart fans" just by virtue of having done so. They wouldn't even need a cogent system. If my football-casual cousin Ben was to watch every snap Wilcox took with the Cowboys, even it just came down to, "He tackles good but his coverage is hit and miss," THAT would have inherently more value than anything that could be said about people who haven't watched him like that.
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Re: Bucs sign JJ Wilcox

Postby real bucs fan » Sat Mar 18, 2017 4:57 pm

After talking to my Cowboys fan buddy, I feel alot better about the Wilcox signing. He badly wanted Dallas to keep him, said that Wilcox flashed finally putting it together last year and that he thinks he's got a chance to fulfill his Pro Bowl potential for us, and is worried Dallas is going to badly miss his enforcer mentality on defence. Said he's surprisingly good in coverage too, his one knock is that he occasionally gets burnt taking poor angles against elite speed guys like Desean and Odell (don't gotta worry about Desean at least lol) but that he was much better last year.
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Re: Bucs sign JJ Wilcox

Postby Super K » Sat Mar 18, 2017 5:04 pm

He gets burnt deep?..Cool..he'll fit right in with Conte..
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Re: Bucs sign JJ Wilcox

Postby Bootz2004 » Sat Mar 18, 2017 5:24 pm

real bucs fan wrote:After talking to my Cowboys fan buddy, I feel alot better about the Wilcox signing. He badly wanted Dallas to keep him, said that Wilcox flashed finally putting it together last year and that he thinks he's got a chance to fulfill his Pro Bowl potential for us, and is worried Dallas is going to badly miss his enforcer mentality on defence. Said he's surprisingly good in coverage too, his one knock is that he occasionally gets burnt taking poor angles against elite speed guys like Desean and Odell (don't gotta worry about Desean at least lol) but that he was much better last year.


The Cowboys took a rookie and moved him from corner to safety so he could replace Wilcox. That would be like having a TE who's not playing well so you move a WR to the spot.
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Re: Bucs sign JJ Wilcox

Postby Kress » Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:40 pm

real bucs fan wrote:After mulling this over, I've concluded that Mike Smith desired more of an intimidation factor from our safeties. If Wilcox can bring one thing to our D, it's a boomstick.




Insert picture of a yellow flag.
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