***OFFICIAL 2017 NFL Offseason thread***

Team Discussions regarding games, players, coaches, or anything else related to Buccaneer Football.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 NFL Offseason thread***

Postby terrytate » Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:36 pm

PrimeMinister wrote:
Doctor wrote:Damn, that really sucks.
But hey, at least it didn't take him. He knows about and can retire with whatever he's saved up.


Agreed. That sucks, but at least they caught it.



Yeah man, no one wants another Gaines Adams situation.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 NFL Offseason thread***

Postby Buc2 » Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:02 am

MJW wrote:
Buc2 wrote:I agree with you guys. I think, for now, they placed Winston about right. As for the backup situation, I was surprised that he ranked Fitz 3rd behind Garappolo (1st) and Matt Moore (2nd). The way Bootz talks, Fitz should be out of the league.


I don't put a lot of stock in these lists, but it does put things in perspective with Fitzpatrick. Bootz approaches backup QBs like you can turn off injuries, Madden style. If you accept that this is stupid, and a backup QB can make a huge difference in the course of a season (so, if you're not Bootz), then you realize what a good backup we have compared to the other options. It's very hard to make a list of backups where Fitz isn't in the top ten, and that's if you hate him.

Fair enough. And to your point, even the author of that list I linked admits that it's mostly a guess based on his observations and that a myriad of things could happen that would alter his list significantly. But, as we all like to say, it's the offseason and it gives us something to talk about.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 NFL Offseason thread***

Postby Bootz2004 » Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:58 am

MJW wrote:
Buc2 wrote:I agree with you guys. I think, for now, they placed Winston about right. As for the backup situation, I was surprised that he ranked Fitz 3rd behind Garappolo (1st) and Matt Moore (2nd). The way Bootz talks, Fitz should be out of the league.


I don't put a lot of stock in these lists, but it does put things in perspective with Fitzpatrick. Bootz approaches backup QBs like you can turn off injuries, Madden style. If you accept that this is stupid, and a backup QB can make a huge difference in the course of a season (so, if you're not Bootz), then you realize what a good backup we have compared to the other options. It's very hard to make a list of backups where Fitz isn't in the top ten, and that's if you hate him.


What you fail to realize and acknowledge is my sentiment is shared by nearly half the franchises in this league. Yet you don't call them out. Pete Carrol had an undrafted rookie as his primary backup, the same guy who's last on your list is the guy Pete Carroll has as his backup. So if my choices are to side with MJW or Pete Carroll I choose Carroll 10 times out of 10....unless you're going to tell me he's stupid too....
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 NFL Offseason thread***

Postby Super K » Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:30 am

My thoughts on the whole Fitzpatrick thing are this..

Fans that give this much of a rats ass whom, and how good, their backup QB usually don't have a "starting" QB...

We aren't in that boat anymore...so I don't give a ****..
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 NFL Offseason thread***

Postby Bootz2004 » Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:47 am

Super K wrote:My thoughts on the whole Fitzpatrick thing are this..

Fans that give this much of a rats ass whom, and how good, their backup QB usually don't have a "starting" QB...

We aren't in that boat anymore...so I don't give a ****..


QFT
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 NFL Offseason thread***

Postby DreadNaught » Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:06 pm

Eagles have released WR Dorial Green Beckham.

What a waste of talent. It's a shame.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 NFL Offseason thread***

Postby Bootz2004 » Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:08 pm

DreadNaught wrote:Eagles have released WR Dorial Green Beckham.

What a waste of talent. It's a shame.


He was always a bit overhyped to me.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 NFL Offseason thread***

Postby DreadNaught » Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:14 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:Eagles have released WR Dorial Green Beckham.

What a waste of talent. It's a shame.


He was always a bit overhyped to me.


No doubt, his production has never come close to his talent outside of his Freshman year at MIZZOU.

Guys that size who can run 4.4 always get hyped though b/c they are unique.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 NFL Offseason thread***

Postby Bootz2004 » Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:53 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
He was always a bit overhyped to me.


No doubt, his production has never come close to his talent outside of his Freshman year at MIZZOU.

Guys that size who can run 4.4 always get hyped though b/c they are unique.


I forget who but I remember some analyst on TV saying he looked like the next Randy Moss. His tape doesn't look like 4.4 tape. I saw a guy who was unsure and didn't run routes very well.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 NFL Offseason thread***

Postby DreadNaught » Fri Jun 30, 2017 2:24 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
No doubt, his production has never come close to his talent outside of his Freshman year at MIZZOU.

Guys that size who can run 4.4 always get hyped though b/c they are unique.


I forget who but I remember some analyst on TV saying he looked like the next Randy Moss. His tape doesn't look like 4.4 tape. I saw a guy who was unsure and didn't run routes very well.


Terrible route runner. Also dumb as a box of rocks and could never learn a playbook.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 NFL Offseason thread***

Postby MJW » Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:29 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
MJW wrote:
I don't put a lot of stock in these lists, but it does put things in perspective with Fitzpatrick. Bootz approaches backup QBs like you can turn off injuries, Madden style. If you accept that this is stupid, and a backup QB can make a huge difference in the course of a season (so, if you're not Bootz), then you realize what a good backup we have compared to the other options. It's very hard to make a list of backups where Fitz isn't in the top ten, and that's if you hate him.


What you fail to realize and acknowledge is my sentiment is shared by nearly half the franchises in this league. Yet you don't call them out. Pete Carrol had an undrafted rookie as his primary backup, the same guy who's last on your list is the guy Pete Carroll has as his backup. So if my choices are to side with MJW or Pete Carroll I choose Carroll 10 times out of 10....unless you're going to tell me he's stupid too....


So, by this logic, anything that any successful coach in the NFL does has to be a great idea, and you're just going to accept it as such?

Do you actually read this **** before you post it?
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 NFL Offseason thread***

Postby LoRdNlKoN » Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:43 pm

MJW wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
What you fail to realize and acknowledge is my sentiment is shared by nearly half the franchises in this league. Yet you don't call them out. Pete Carrol had an undrafted rookie as his primary backup, the same guy who's last on your list is the guy Pete Carroll has as his backup. So if my choices are to side with MJW or Pete Carroll I choose Carroll 10 times out of 10....unless you're going to tell me he's stupid too....


So, by this logic, anything that any successful coach in the NFL does has to be a great idea, and you're just going to accept it as such?

Do you actually read this **** before you post it?



Who do you think advises all those coaches with the big decision? Bootz is really the power behind the NFL.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 NFL Offseason thread***

Postby terrytate » Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:50 pm

Super K wrote:My thoughts on the whole Fitzpatrick thing are this..

Fans that give this much of a rats ass whom, and how good, their backup QB usually don't have a "starting" QB...

We aren't in that boat anymore...so I don't give a ****..


You've got it completely wrong. If you don't have a starter, you aren't doing anything in January so it doesn't matter in the least who your backup qb is. When you have the guy, as we do in Jameis, then you have a realistic hope to do something in the postseason. You then want a backup who can minimize the damage to your postseason hopes should your guy miss some games. 4 games with the backup could potentially decide whether you are a 1 seed or needing to win 3 road games to make the Super Bowl.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 NFL Offseason thread***

Postby Super K » Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:14 pm

terrytate wrote:
Super K wrote:My thoughts on the whole Fitzpatrick thing are this..

Fans that give this much of a rats ass whom, and how good, their backup QB usually don't have a "starting" QB...

We aren't in that boat anymore...so I don't give a ****..


You've got it completely wrong. If you don't have a starter, you aren't doing anything in January so it doesn't matter in the least who your backup qb is. When you have the guy, as we do in Jameis, then you have a realistic hope to do something in the postseason. You then want a backup who can minimize the damage to your postseason hopes should your guy miss some games. 4 games with the backup could potentially decide whether you are a 1 seed or needing to win 3 road games to make the Super Bowl.


Packer fans don't care who backs up A-Rod or where/how said backup is ranked..

Neither do Falcon or Panther fans..

Think Pat's fans would care about Jimmy G if the Brady retirement question wasn't getting kicked around?.. nope

Colts fans vested in their #2 guy? Huh-uh..

I live real damn close to Pburgh..fans and radio hosts want to dump Landry Jones for an unproven rookie because said rook costs less and they could use the extra roster spot on someone who will impact their season..

I'm happy with Fitz..I would've been just as happy with Griffin or a rookie..

We have the #3 guy on a list of guys no NFL fan ever wants to see play..

Does nothing for me..
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 NFL Offseason thread***

Postby Bootz2004 » Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:22 pm

MJW wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
What you fail to realize and acknowledge is my sentiment is shared by nearly half the franchises in this league. Yet you don't call them out. Pete Carrol had an undrafted rookie as his primary backup, the same guy who's last on your list is the guy Pete Carroll has as his backup. So if my choices are to side with MJW or Pete Carroll I choose Carroll 10 times out of 10....unless you're going to tell me he's stupid too....


So, by this logic, anything that any successful coach in the NFL does has to be a great idea, and you're just going to accept it as such?

Do you actually read this **** before you post it?


As expected you deflect. Nothing to see here, just MJW doing her usual act.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 NFL Offseason thread***

Postby Bootz2004 » Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:29 pm

terrytate wrote:
Super K wrote:My thoughts on the whole Fitzpatrick thing are this..

Fans that give this much of a rats ass whom, and how good, their backup QB usually don't have a "starting" QB...

We aren't in that boat anymore...so I don't give a ****..


You've got it completely wrong. If you don't have a starter, you aren't doing anything in January so it doesn't matter in the least who your backup qb is. When you have the guy, as we do in Jameis, then you have a realistic hope to do something in the postseason. You then want a backup who can minimize the damage to your postseason hopes should your guy miss some games. 4 games with the backup could potentially decide whether you are a 1 seed or needing to win 3 road games to make the Super Bowl.


NFL franchises disagree with you completely with this logic. I've already mentioned Seattle having UDFA Trevon Boykin as their primary backup. But if you want to go down the list, Pittsburgh has Landry Jones, NY Giants have Geno Smith & Davis Webb, Green Bay has Brett Hundley, New Orleans has Garrett Grayson. Those teams who don't have starters or guys they don't feel comfortable about, guess what they do? They go out and get more QBs! Chicago signed Mike Glennon to a $45 million contract THEN traded up in the draft to take a QB 2nd overall. Houston gave away a guy they gave $30 million guaranteed last offseason then traded up to draft a QB. The team they traded with got the guy that Houston no longer wanted then drafted a QB 2nd round. Those are the teams who make a big deal as to who their backup is. Not the teams with guys already in place.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 NFL Offseason thread***

Postby Nano » Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:42 pm

SI.com posted an interesting question earlier: Could 2017 be the end of the Peyton/Brees era in NO?

Peyton has done a ton for the franchise, but I imagine that ownership is starting to get impatient. 3 straight 7-9 seasons, 4 in the past 5 years, doesn't look good. Not to mention how weak the team has been developing its young players. Brees will be 39 after next season, and has an opt out in his contract and might not want to stick around for another rebuild. Not to mention that his cap hit soars from 19 mil in 2017 to 28 mil 2018. Both sides could want to move on.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 NFL Offseason thread***

Postby Bootz2004 » Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:44 pm

Nano wrote:SI.com posted an interesting question earlier: Could 2017 be the end of the Peyton/Brees era in NO?

Peyton has done a ton for the franchise, but I imagine that ownership is starting to get impatient. 3 straight 7-9 seasons, 4 in the past 5 years, doesn't look good. Not to mention how weak the team has been developing its young players. Brees will be 39 after next season, and has an opt out in his contract and might not want to stick around for another rebuild. Not to mention that his cap hit soars from 19 mil in 2017 to 28 mil 2018. Both sides could want to move on.


I feel like this has been the question for the past few seasons. SI just trying to be the 1st to "break the story"
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 NFL Offseason thread***

Postby theBKwhopper » Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:27 pm

LoRdNlKoN wrote:
MJW wrote:
So, by this logic, anything that any successful coach in the NFL does has to be a great idea, and you're just going to accept it as such?

Do you actually read this **** before you post it?



Who do you think advises all those coaches with the big decision? Bootz is really the power behind the NFL.

If this were true, the backup QB position wouldn't even exist. When teams lost their QBs, they'd just forfeit.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 NFL Offseason thread***

Postby MJW » Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:55 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
terrytate wrote:
You've got it completely wrong. If you don't have a starter, you aren't doing anything in January so it doesn't matter in the least who your backup qb is. When you have the guy, as we do in Jameis, then you have a realistic hope to do something in the postseason. You then want a backup who can minimize the damage to your postseason hopes should your guy miss some games. 4 games with the backup could potentially decide whether you are a 1 seed or needing to win 3 road games to make the Super Bowl.


NFL franchises disagree with you completely with this logic. I've already mentioned Seattle having UDFA Trevon Boykin as their primary backup. But if you want to go down the list, Pittsburgh has Landry Jones, NY Giants have Geno Smith & Davis Webb, Green Bay has Brett Hundley, New Orleans has Garrett Grayson. Those teams who don't have starters or guys they don't feel comfortable about, guess what they do? They go out and get more QBs! Chicago signed Mike Glennon to a $45 million contract THEN traded up in the draft to take a QB 2nd overall. Houston gave away a guy they gave $30 million guaranteed last offseason then traded up to draft a QB. The team they traded with got the guy that Houston no longer wanted then drafted a QB 2nd round. Those are the teams who make a big deal as to who their backup is. Not the teams with guys already in place.


This post is all the wrong.
The Steelers drafted Josh Dobbs in the 4th round to supplant Jones.
Geno Smith is an above-average backup and they paid him $1.2 mil with $300K guaranteed. They could have paid Nassib $775K with virtually no bonus if they felt that way. THEN they drafted a THIRD quarterback on day two. Obviously they value the guys behind Eli.
Brett Hundley looked good in limited action and it's entirely possible he gets flipped for a pick in a year.
ETC.

There are a scant few teams that seem content having a guy with neither a pedigree nor starting experience as their #2. The Seahawks are one of them, and if Russell Wilson gets hurt it'll hardly be the first mistake Carroll ever made. The Colts seem to be another with Tolzien. You could include the Lions and Rams too, though I like Sean Mannion a lot long-term. There are a couple other we could debate.

The rest of the league? They have guys who've started games - often, a lot of games - or guys who were recently high picks. The Patriots have a 2nd rounder AND a 3rd rounder behind Tom Brady, the league's most durable quarterback not named Eli Manning. The Bengals are refusing to deal AJ McCarron because of how much they value that spot. The Panthers are paying a good sum to Anderson behind their franchise guy. The Cardinals are doing the same with Drew Stanton. Do I need to go on?

So...yeah...Pete Carroll thinks he'll be okay with Boykin. Maybe he will. I don't know what he sees in practice. But for the vast majority of the league, they spend picks/money on guys they like to be the #2 for a reason.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 NFL Offseason thread***

Postby MJW » Sat Jul 01, 2017 12:47 am

You want the best evidence backups matter?

Exempting CK, whose unemployment has nothing to do with football, the cream of the crop when it comes to available veteran QBs it probably:
RGIII
Zach Mettenberg
Christian Ponder
Charlie Whitehurst
and Bruce Gradkowski

In other words, if you're a veteran QB and you're...alive...you're on a roster right now. Some of them won't be when the dust settles, but veterans like Ryan Nassib, TJ Yates, and Blaine Gabbert all got signed this offseason to new teams.

Hmmmm, why would that be? Could it be because teams are always searching for veteran backup types who can step in if need be? Or help their younger guys learn the job? It's ALMOST like teams think a quarterback who isn't your designated starter can be important to your success.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 NFL Offseason thread***

Postby MJW » Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:20 am

DreadNaught wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
I forget who but I remember some analyst on TV saying he looked like the next Randy Moss. His tape doesn't look like 4.4 tape. I saw a guy who was unsure and didn't run routes very well.


Terrible route runner. Also dumb as a box of rocks and could never learn a playbook.


I heard this too.

After Mariota, it's remarkable how bad the Titans 2015 draft was.

DGB (2nd Round) - Gone after one season, now possibly done in the league after two. BTW, they traded back with the Giants for this pick. The Giants drafted Landon Collins.
Jeremiah Poutasi (2nd Round) - Gone after one season, currently hoping to win a backup job in Jacksonville.
D'Angelo Blackson (4th Round) - He's on the team, but he has 2 starts and 24 tackles in two seasons.
Jalston Fowler (4th Round) - On the team, but who the hell drafts a pure fullback this high in 2015?
David Cobb (5th Round) - Got a handful of carries with them, did nothing, now one of those practice-squad ghosts floating around the league.
Andy Gallik (6th Round) - Never played a snap in the NFL.
Deiontrez Mount (6th Round) - Was a PS guy for a season. Now a PS guy for the Colts.
Tre McBride (7th Round) - He's been on and off their PS for two years.

If Mariota continues to develop into the guy most think he will be, none of this really matters all that much. But man, what a lot of wasted opportunities with this class for a rebuilding team. If they'd taken Devin Funchess (who went one pick after DGB) and AJ Cann (one pick after Poutasi), they'd have two solid starters right there instead of two guys out of the league.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 NFL Offseason thread***

Postby terrytate » Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:46 am

Bootz2004 wrote:
terrytate wrote:
You've got it completely wrong. If you don't have a starter, you aren't doing anything in January so it doesn't matter in the least who your backup qb is. When you have the guy, as we do in Jameis, then you have a realistic hope to do something in the postseason. You then want a backup who can minimize the damage to your postseason hopes should your guy miss some games. 4 games with the backup could potentially decide whether you are a 1 seed or needing to win 3 road games to make the Super Bowl.


NFL franchises disagree with you completely with this logic. I've already mentioned Seattle having UDFA Trevon Boykin as their primary backup. But if you want to go down the list, Pittsburgh has Landry Jones, NY Giants have Geno Smith & Davis Webb, Green Bay has Brett Hundley, New Orleans has Garrett Grayson. Those teams who don't have starters or guys they don't feel comfortable about, guess what they do? They go out and get more QBs! Chicago signed Mike Glennon to a $45 million contract THEN traded up in the draft to take a QB 2nd overall. Houston gave away a guy they gave $30 million guaranteed last offseason then traded up to draft a QB. The team they traded with got the guy that Houston no longer wanted then drafted a QB 2nd round. Those are the teams who make a big deal as to who their backup is. Not the teams with guys already in place.



Ahem, Garrapolo. You know, the guy the Pats drafted in the second round a few years ago when they already have a top 3 all time qb who intended to play for several more years and is getting it done.

Davis Webb was a third rounder, not a trivial pick and many think he is being groomed to replace Eli.

The Steelers seem to be quite happy with Landry Jones. If I am not mistaken he is 2-2 as a starter and has led at least one come from behind win when called in as a relief qb. Also, if you remember, Jones was the third string originally. Vick was their backup but he got hurt, opening the door for Jones to step in win the job

The Bengals drafted McCarron to back up Dalton and he's played great, perhaps good enough to get a shot at starting somewhere.

So yeah, plenty of contending teams value a good backup QB.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 NFL Offseason thread***

Postby MJW » Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:03 am

terrytate wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
NFL franchises disagree with you completely with this logic. I've already mentioned Seattle having UDFA Trevon Boykin as their primary backup. But if you want to go down the list, Pittsburgh has Landry Jones, NY Giants have Geno Smith & Davis Webb, Green Bay has Brett Hundley, New Orleans has Garrett Grayson. Those teams who don't have starters or guys they don't feel comfortable about, guess what they do? They go out and get more QBs! Chicago signed Mike Glennon to a $45 million contract THEN traded up in the draft to take a QB 2nd overall. Houston gave away a guy they gave $30 million guaranteed last offseason then traded up to draft a QB. The team they traded with got the guy that Houston no longer wanted then drafted a QB 2nd round. Those are the teams who make a big deal as to who their backup is. Not the teams with guys already in place.



Ahem, Garrapolo. You know, the guy the Pats drafted in the second round a few years ago when they already have a top 3 all time qb who intended to play for several more years and is getting it done.

Davis Webb was a third rounder, not a trivial pick and many think he is being groomed to replace Eli.

The Steelers seem to be quite happy with Landry Jones. If I am not mistaken he is 2-2 as a starter and has led at least one come from behind win when called in as a relief qb. Also, if you remember, Jones was the third string originally. Vick was their backup but he got hurt, opening the door for Jones to step in win the job

The Bengals drafted McCarron to back up Dalton and he's played great, perhaps good enough to get a shot at starting somewhere.

So yeah, plenty of contending teams value a good backup QB.


Bootz is ready and willing to die on any hill he sets foot on. In this case, he idiotically argued that backup QBs don't matter way back in 2015 when we were going to draft Winston and we were talking about what to do with Glennon. Since then, he's been making more and more idiotic points in defense of this flawed logic. Now he's been reduced to, "The Seahawks have an UDFA as their QB, and Pete Carroll is smart!" That's his entire argument for why backup QBs don't matter - the Seahawks have a cheap one, and they're a good organization. Beyond that, he's left with pretending Davis Webb was a 7th rounder, not a 3rd rounder, or Jimmy G/Jacoby Brissett don't exist, or Derek Anderson doesn't make $2.4 million a year, etc.

It all boils down to the hilarious perspective that we're not more likely to win a game with Ryan Fitzpatrick starting than we would have been with Ryan Griffin starting. That is the height of Bootzing right there.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 NFL Offseason thread***

Postby Bootz2004 » Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:01 am

MJW wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
NFL franchises disagree with you completely with this logic. I've already mentioned Seattle having UDFA Trevon Boykin as their primary backup. But if you want to go down the list, Pittsburgh has Landry Jones, NY Giants have Geno Smith & Davis Webb, Green Bay has Brett Hundley, New Orleans has Garrett Grayson. Those teams who don't have starters or guys they don't feel comfortable about, guess what they do? They go out and get more QBs! Chicago signed Mike Glennon to a $45 million contract THEN traded up in the draft to take a QB 2nd overall. Houston gave away a guy they gave $30 million guaranteed last offseason then traded up to draft a QB. The team they traded with got the guy that Houston no longer wanted then drafted a QB 2nd round. Those are the teams who make a big deal as to who their backup is. Not the teams with guys already in place.


This post is all the wrong.
The Steelers drafted Josh Dobbs in the 4th round to supplant Jones.
Geno Smith is an above-average backup and they paid him $1.2 mil with $300K guaranteed. They could have paid Nassib $775K with virtually no bonus if they felt that way. THEN they drafted a THIRD quarterback on day two. Obviously they value the guys behind Eli.
Brett Hundley looked good in limited action and it's entirely possible he gets flipped for a pick in a year.
ETC.

There are a scant few teams that seem content having a guy with neither a pedigree nor starting experience as their #2. The Seahawks are one of them, and if Russell Wilson gets hurt it'll hardly be the first mistake Carroll ever made. The Colts seem to be another with Tolzien. You could include the Lions and Rams too, though I like Sean Mannion a lot long-term. There are a couple other we could debate.

The rest of the league? They have guys who've started games - often, a lot of games - or guys who were recently high picks. The Patriots have a 2nd rounder AND a 3rd rounder behind Tom Brady, the league's most durable quarterback not named Eli Manning. The Bengals are refusing to deal AJ McCarron because of how much they value that spot. The Panthers are paying a good sum to Anderson behind their franchise guy. The Cardinals are doing the same with Drew Stanton. Do I need to go on?

So...yeah...Pete Carroll thinks he'll be okay with Boykin. Maybe he will. I don't know what he sees in practice. But for the vast majority of the league, they spend picks/money on guys they like to be the #2 for a reason.


Dobbs doesn't fit YOUR own criteria. He hasn't taken a snap at the NFL level. He's an unproven rookie. Reno Smith is what?? Your logic is all off. Being a **** starting QB doesn't make you an "above average" backup. This is a guy who has thrown more picks for his career than TDs, has never come off bench to win a game for the Jets. So I don't know what makes you think he's an above average back-up.

I'm not sure what limited action you saw that made Huntley look good. He's 2-10 for 17 yards with an INT and a fumble. Nice try throwing **** to the wall to see if it'll stick.

Of the others you listed, Garrapplo is the one who's shown potential but it shouldn't be a surprise as he plays in New England. McCarron is meh. Stanton is terrible. You use the fact that teams are paying backups as validation for why they are important yet you criticize me for citing Carroll and his use of a UDFA....typical hypocrisy from MJW.


MJW wrote:
So, by this logic, anything that any successful coach in the NFL does has to be a great idea, and you're just going to accept it as such?

Do you actually read this **** before you post it?
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 NFL Offseason thread***

Postby MJW » Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:47 am

Bootz2004 wrote:
MJW wrote:
This post is all the wrong.
The Steelers drafted Josh Dobbs in the 4th round to supplant Jones.
Geno Smith is an above-average backup and they paid him $1.2 mil with $300K guaranteed. They could have paid Nassib $775K with virtually no bonus if they felt that way. THEN they drafted a THIRD quarterback on day two. Obviously they value the guys behind Eli.
Brett Hundley looked good in limited action and it's entirely possible he gets flipped for a pick in a year.
ETC.

There are a scant few teams that seem content having a guy with neither a pedigree nor starting experience as their #2. The Seahawks are one of them, and if Russell Wilson gets hurt it'll hardly be the first mistake Carroll ever made. The Colts seem to be another with Tolzien. You could include the Lions and Rams too, though I like Sean Mannion a lot long-term. There are a couple other we could debate.

The rest of the league? They have guys who've started games - often, a lot of games - or guys who were recently high picks. The Patriots have a 2nd rounder AND a 3rd rounder behind Tom Brady, the league's most durable quarterback not named Eli Manning. The Bengals are refusing to deal AJ McCarron because of how much they value that spot. The Panthers are paying a good sum to Anderson behind their franchise guy. The Cardinals are doing the same with Drew Stanton. Do I need to go on?

So...yeah...Pete Carroll thinks he'll be okay with Boykin. Maybe he will. I don't know what he sees in practice. But for the vast majority of the league, they spend picks/money on guys they like to be the #2 for a reason.


Dobbs doesn't fit YOUR own criteria. He hasn't taken a snap at the NFL level. He's an unproven rookie. Reno Smith is what?? Your logic is all off. Being a **** starting QB doesn't make you an "above average" backup. This is a guy who has thrown more picks for his career than TDs, has never come off bench to win a game for the Jets. So I don't know what makes you think he's an above average back-up.

I'm not sure what limited action you saw that made Huntley look good. He's 2-10 for 17 yards with an INT and a fumble. Nice try throwing **** to the wall to see if it'll stick.

Of the others you listed, Garrapplo is the one who's shown potential but it shouldn't be a surprise as he plays in New England. McCarron is meh. Stanton is terrible. You use the fact that teams are paying backups as validation for why they are important yet you criticize me for citing Carroll and his use of a UDFA....typical hypocrisy from MJW.


MJW wrote:
So, by this logic, anything that any successful coach in the NFL does has to be a great idea, and you're just going to accept it as such?

Do you actually read this **** before you post it?


This is so misguided I feel sorry for you.

You're trying to compare backups to starters. That's ridiculous and you know it. If backups were as good as starters, they wouldn't be backups. Try to follow this: quarterbacks get hurt. Sometimes for a game or two, sometimes for a month or two, sometimes for a season. At that point, another quarterback, called a "backup" comes in to play. If it's for a season, you're most likely screwed. Not always, but usually.

But if it's for a game, or a month or two, you might be able to survive if you have one that can play a little.
These guys who suck according to you - Geno Smith and Drew Stanton blah blah blah - can play a little. Nobody would expect them to come in and play as well as the starters (because...they're backups...see the first paragraph.) But guys like this CAN win a few games over a short to moderate period of time if their team helps them out.

NFL coaches understand this, which is why the VAST majority of the league is willing to pay more (sometimes much more) than the league minimum for quality backups. Or, they're willing to use valuable picks to acquire them. In our case, we were willing to pay Ryan Fitzpatrick about $2.5 mil MORE than Ryan Griffin because he can play a little, and Griffin could not. It's the same reason the Falcons are paying Matt Schaub over $4 million, and the Panthers over $2 mil for Derek Anderson instead of paying some rookie league minimum.

Pete Carroll disagrees with this. Good for Pete. You and him and maybe Jim Caldwell are that entire list.

I have no damn idea what part of this is confusing for you, or what you're even trying to argue at this point. I think you just like hearing yourself bark.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 NFL Offseason thread***

Postby Bootz2004 » Sat Jul 01, 2017 7:16 am

MJW wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
Dobbs doesn't fit YOUR own criteria. He hasn't taken a snap at the NFL level. He's an unproven rookie. Reno Smith is what?? Your logic is all off. Being a **** starting QB doesn't make you an "above average" backup. This is a guy who has thrown more picks for his career than TDs, has never come off bench to win a game for the Jets. So I don't know what makes you think he's an above average back-up.

I'm not sure what limited action you saw that made Huntley look good. He's 2-10 for 17 yards with an INT and a fumble. Nice try throwing **** to the wall to see if it'll stick.

Of the others you listed, Garrapplo is the one who's shown potential but it shouldn't be a surprise as he plays in New England. McCarron is meh. Stanton is terrible. You use the fact that teams are paying backups as validation for why they are important yet you criticize me for citing Carroll and his use of a UDFA....typical hypocrisy from MJW.




This is so misguided I feel sorry for you.

You're trying to compare backups to starters. That's ridiculous and you know it. If backups were as good as starters, they wouldn't be backups. Try to follow this: quarterbacks get hurt. Sometimes for a game or two, sometimes for a month or two, sometimes for a season. At that point, another quarterback, called a "backup" comes in to play. If it's for a season, you're most likely screwed. Not always, but usually.

But if it's for a game, or a month or two, you might be able to survive if you have one that can play a little.
These guys who suck according to you - Geno Smith and Drew Stanton blah blah blah - can play a little. Nobody would expect them to come in and play as well as the starters (because...they're backups...see the first paragraph.) But guys like this CAN win a few games over a short to moderate period of time if their team helps them out.

NFL coaches understand this, which is why the VAST majority of the league is willing to pay more (sometimes much more) than the league minimum for quality backups. Or, they're willing to use valuable picks to acquire them. In our case, we were willing to pay Ryan Fitzpatrick about $2.5 mil MORE than Ryan Griffin because he can play a little, and Griffin could not. It's the same reason the Falcons are paying Matt Schaub over $4 million, and the Panthers over $2 mil for Derek Anderson instead of paying some rookie league minimum.

Pete Carroll disagrees with this. Good for Pete. You and him and maybe Jim Caldwell are that entire list.

I have no damn idea what part of this is confusing for you, or what you're even trying to argue at this point. I think you just like hearing yourself bark.


Misguided? I'll ask the same question you asked me..



MJW wrote:
So, by this logic, anything that any successful coach in the NFL does has to be a great idea, and you're just going to accept it as such?

Do you actually read this **** before you post it?


Again you're using what NFL teams do as validation for why you believe it's a great idea. You truly don't care about the hypocrisy you display. You also say teams who pay QBs 7 figure sums value the backup position instead of paying rookies league minimum.....this after you cite teams who draft backups as valuing the position. So which is it, sweetheart? I can't hear you over your contradictions. By your very logic here you've cut your own list in half of teams who in your eyes value the position.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 NFL Offseason thread***

Postby Teitan » Sat Jul 01, 2017 7:32 am

I'm so glad you guys could reinvigorate the back up qb discussion.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 NFL Offseason thread***

Postby Nano » Sat Jul 01, 2017 7:55 am

For his entire six-year career so far, Channing Crowder never left a game to use the bathroom, instead urinating on himself. Every single game he's played.
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Re: ***OFFICIAL 2017 NFL Offseason thread***

Postby MJW » Sat Jul 01, 2017 8:24 am

Bootz2004 wrote:
MJW wrote:
This is so misguided I feel sorry for you.

You're trying to compare backups to starters. That's ridiculous and you know it. If backups were as good as starters, they wouldn't be backups. Try to follow this: quarterbacks get hurt. Sometimes for a game or two, sometimes for a month or two, sometimes for a season. At that point, another quarterback, called a "backup" comes in to play. If it's for a season, you're most likely screwed. Not always, but usually.

But if it's for a game, or a month or two, you might be able to survive if you have one that can play a little.
These guys who suck according to you - Geno Smith and Drew Stanton blah blah blah - can play a little. Nobody would expect them to come in and play as well as the starters (because...they're backups...see the first paragraph.) But guys like this CAN win a few games over a short to moderate period of time if their team helps them out.

NFL coaches understand this, which is why the VAST majority of the league is willing to pay more (sometimes much more) than the league minimum for quality backups. Or, they're willing to use valuable picks to acquire them. In our case, we were willing to pay Ryan Fitzpatrick about $2.5 mil MORE than Ryan Griffin because he can play a little, and Griffin could not. It's the same reason the Falcons are paying Matt Schaub over $4 million, and the Panthers over $2 mil for Derek Anderson instead of paying some rookie league minimum.

Pete Carroll disagrees with this. Good for Pete. You and him and maybe Jim Caldwell are that entire list.

I have no damn idea what part of this is confusing for you, or what you're even trying to argue at this point. I think you just like hearing yourself bark.


Misguided? I'll ask the same question you asked me..



MJW wrote:
So, by this logic, anything that any successful coach in the NFL does has to be a great idea, and you're just going to accept it as such?

Do you actually read this **** before you post it?


Again you're using what NFL teams do as validation for why you believe it's a great idea. You truly don't care about the hypocrisy you display. You also say teams who pay QBs 7 figure sums value the backup position instead of paying rookies league minimum.....this after you cite teams who draft backups as valuing the position. So which is it, sweetheart? I can't hear you over your contradictions. By your very logic here you've cut your own list in half of teams who in your eyes value the position.


Wow, you're so dense you think there's a fundamental difference between allocating cap room to something you value, and allocating a draft pick. I gave you too much credit. They're both resources dumbass, and the point is teams allocate resources to positions they value. Like their backup quarterback.

As for it being a good idea just because NFL teams do it, that's not why it's a good idea. They do it because it's a good idea. It's a good idea because we have a better chance of winning a game with $3 million Ryan Fitzpatrick than $500K Ryan Griffin. That's why it's a good idea. Any questions?
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